your implicit or explicit quantitative statements. Statements that 90% of reviews are bullshit and agreement with such a statement is going overboard. Based on the number of posted reviews as I write this reply, then 357,282 bogus reviews exist. Big time hyperbole. You state many providers will say nothing about false positives. Well for sure we could debate 'many' but I've read many postings from many providers who absolutely protest this when it happens to them and take proactive measures to correct it.
You state: 'you have never seen a provider before, and the only thing you have to go on are her reviews, would you not agree that you would feel you were taking a considerable risk relying on someone with only a handful of reviews? And why is that -- because you know a good percentage of reviews are unreliable.'
While I agree to some extent with the premise of the embedded question, I do not agree with your conclusion. If a provider has little review history, then the primary reason for my hesitation is not because I know a handful of her reviews are bogus; it is simply because she has little documented history at all. Whether some are bogus may or may not be true but we can all take steps to try to determine this. Examination of the reviewer's history may tell you a lot. Did he only post a few reviews, are all of his reviews about ladies with a small number of reviews, are his evaluations out of range and non-consistent with the findings of other hobbyists, etc.? There are plenty of ways to catch red flags.
As to the number of reviews posted for a lady and when guys post them or not, I suggest you use the discussion board search utility to find numerous threads on that subject. (I know you can find such recent threads on the FL board and Porn Star board within the past 90-days). In any case, there are ladies who ask clients to refrain from posting reviews. Many gents honor these requests and of course some do not. There are guys who don't post reviews, there are some who do so on occasion and there are some who do it always. You will read that they all have their reasons and opinions and many are quite legitimate for themselves. Enlighten yourself on these diverse reasons why some don't bother. You may not agree with their tact but don't simply categorize non-reviewers as lazy.
As for mandatory payment requirements for VIP status, I can go on for a long time about my opinion of the pros/cons of such action. But two stand out. There are honest people and there are dishonest people on each side of the provider/client equation. Unlike yourself, I tend to think there are far more honest folks here than not. I would never support a movement that places a penalty of sorts on the majority to try to control the minority. Secondly, why you think that paying folks have a higher level of integrity is beyond me. How do you conclude that today's paying VIP members do not post bogus reviews? Once again do some research on these boards to learn that free VIP credit is not the only driving force behind false reviews.
I'll end by repeating that I think you are correct that there is room for improvement. However I don’t think your suggestion or any of your supporting arguments will remedy what you think is such a pervasive TER problem. As someone has already pointed out you seem to have a 33% rate of some level of disappointment. This from someone with a month long review history. I assure you I am not exaggerating that there are many, many veteran hobbyists out there who have a much higher percentage of satisfaction than you and they have been using TER for years and years. Learn how to use the system better. There are plenty of improvement opportunities for your evaluation skills as well.
-- Modified on 1/31/2007 12:58:08 PM
TER has its problems yes. Sometimes reviews are unfair - yes. On the whole though, I have found the majority of reviews to be fair, and honest. They also, on the whole, I have found, give the lady the benefit of the doubt. But TER also provides a forum for airing the concerns, discussing what a good session should be like and the needs of both sides of the envelop. This is a far better than in the old days. Believe me, been there, done that. The old ways are still available for those that wish... but for those that want a clientelle that is up-to-date, where both sides kinda know what is in store, well, the internet and cell phones offer a lot -
While some may think that the hobby is changing - in favor of the hobbiests, I have to think that it also encompases changes that are good for the ladies as well - the constant reminder to come to a session clean and fresh... the newbie introduction into the 2-call system and envelop.... etc... without the mistakes common on a first visit. etc.
Also If I note that a gal ONLY provides a CBJ or no anal or no DFK or whatever, I know not to press it, and I suspect that many of my fellow hobbiests are similar in their demands as well. So, all in all, I prefer this style as opposed to what I use to do.... going to a cheap hotel near a truck stop and CB shopping. lol! exciting cause like forrest Gump... ya never knew what you would get.... thoughts?
-- Modified on 1/31/2007 8:08:01 AM
This is not a hobbyist vs. provider issue. This is an honesty v. dishonesty issue.
Some of the reviews are fictitious. Not unfair, just false. I am convinced there are reviewers who never met the providers, ever. It does not matter whether it is a false positive review, or a false negative review. Either way, they hurt hobbyists and providers alike. It has gotten to the point that I see little difference between a provider with no reviews, and a provider with a handful of reviews -- I feel like I'm taking a similar risk either way.
I would love to see the review system tightened up in the following two ways. First, I think every reviewer/hobbyist should have to pay for a VIP membership, and there should no longer be VIP points for posting reviews. The cost of a VIP membership is miniscule. I cannot believe someone can afford to hobby once a month, but can't afford to pay for a VIP membership. Requiring people to pay for the membership will prevent false registrations (I suspect competing providers, shills, agencies, etc. falsely register using multiple IP addresses. That will be harder to do if you have to give a credit card.) Also, it will eliminate the incentive to post a false review to get VIP points. I think a lot of reviewers post bogus, positive reviews for providers they never met to get the VIP points. The providers don't complain (even tho the session never happened) because they got a good review.
Second, I would bar people from posting reviews unless they are paid VIP members. That way we don't have any more reviews from people who could be bogus. Again, if you can pay for a provider, then you can pay a small monthly fee to be a VIP member.
I would give current VIP members a grace time to become paid VIP members, and then I would drop their VIP status if they don't pay up.
Non VIP members could still visit the site and see the bare bones reviews (i.e., without the details available to VIP members). But unless they pay, they can't post.
Let's face it, right now we have a system that creates every incentive for anyone with a computer (and an incentive to lie) to register and start posting bogus reviews. There is no downside for someone who chooses to do that, and no way to prevent it unless the provider complains. Human nature being what it is, many providers will not complain about false positive reviews.
This would reduce the number of reviews, for sure, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing. If there are a lot of bogus, unreliable reviews, reducing their number would be a good thing. Plus, it might encourage some hobbyists to get off their butt and write reviews when they see providers. A lot of hobbyists don't bother.
Consider this. For the entire TER system, there are about 1,750 providers who have 25 or more reviews. By contrast, there are over 17,000 providers who have less than 10 reviews. The vast majority of the providers on this site have very few reviews. If only a handful are bogus for a particular provider, then you are rolling the dice.
If you have never seen a provider before, and the only thing you have to go on are her reviews, would you not agree that you would feel you were taking a considerable risk relying on someone with only a handful of reviews? And why is that -- because you know a good percentage of reviews are unreliable.
No doubt, this better than the *old days.* But the TER review system can still be improved. When I see providers post saying that 90% of the reviews are bullshit, I am worried they may be right.
you can make up a fairly accurate review... you can also create an expectation of a provider... ie. does anal when infact she does not, dfk when in fact she does not.... etc.
Sometimes a hobbiest and provider connect, and while that has happened to me, I try to restrain from putting into my reviews personal stuff that happens between me and the provider and stick to std activities and emotions. that is better for all than to have every guy go to a gal believing that he is gonna have EXACTLY my experience (sometimes being green has advantages, not often, but sometimes....). As the TER database gets bigger, there could be ways to screen false reviews, but it would take some fancy doings....
I agree, when the review is great - there is no contention... but if the review is not great or is now what the provider is use to getting - well, they tend to not like that so much. I look at it as a very public QA/QC tool for the provider and a consumer guide for the hobbiest.
Think about it. Ever heard of LE? I've often wondered what would happen if LE systematically created fake reviews and made them sound plausible (except to the escort who knows it just didn't happen).
Fake reviews can give cover to fake escorts and help create an environment where LE can get a lot of people busted.
It's something to think about...
I agree with the ideas you have on how to change the review system. One additional change I think would be good for hobbiests and providers alike is to have a way a provider might respond to said review be it a simple thank you or a correction (for example if the review states she offers greek but she does not she could put that as a notation)
this all has been discussed ad nauseum. all the points you make to the review system not working, you don't trust reviews, blah blah blah... what are you doing here on TER then?
you've answered your own question: simply see the well-reviewed providers if that makes you feel better. no taking one for the team, ever. btw, then the reviews you write will simply be additions of "me too" in her profile.
everyone here has their own way of dealing with what they perceive as fraudulent reviews.
i think you're assertion that "... I would bar people from posting reviews unless they are paid VIP members. That way we don't have any more reviews from people who could be bogus." jeez. in other words, anyone who ponies up the $20/mo couldn't possibly be dishonest, or a white knight shill, or a cop, or whatever. gimme a break. what incentive is there, then, for writing reviews? responsibility to your fellow hobbyists (for which privilege we must PAY)? don't make me laugh. guess what, this is a review site. no reviews, no site. terrible idea. the current system is working far better than your proposal.
the review system here works fine for me; looking at the experiences you've had in your six reviews, your success rate is 66.7%. In school, that's a "D" grade. i would suggest doing a little more homework on your providers rather than complain about the system as a whole. use the resources here, in my opinion they're the best available companion information on the 'net. is it perfect? no, it's not and never will be. works fine the way it is tho, if you actually take the time to use it.
I'll try to keep the discussion on a slightly more polite plane. When discussing a policy issue, it is probably more helpful to talk policy, and not attack the character, intelligence, etc. of the people with whom you are having a discussion.
I can be on TER and still think the site can be improved. TER itself recognizes this. It is not a persuasive argument to say we have to accept TER as it is, or leave the site. Making a constructive criticism does not mean that I think the site has no value. I never said otherwise.
Limiting yourself to heavily reviewed providers really limits the field. In most locales, there are only a handful of providers who have more than 10 reviews.
No, if someone is a paid member, it does not mean they are only going to write honest reviews. However, as your own post indicates, if they are a paid member they have no incentive to review a provider they have never seen. Also, if they are a paid member and write bogus reviews, it is much easier to get rid of them, for good.
Your belief that no one will write reviews if they do not get VIP points is not true. There are a number of hobbyists who write reviews even though they pay the monthly fee anyway.
Once the VIP point system is eliminated, hobbyists have only 1 incentive to write reviews -- because it's the truth. The fact that you believe there are reviewers who won't write just to give an honest review is, of course, precisely the problem. I think you are right: there are now reviewers on this site who write only to get VIP points, and have no sense of responsibility to their fellow hobbyists. And I would like to get them to stop writing reviews.
Last, it is certainly true that the extent of my research is increasing over time. But, first, that's kind of a sad commentary, isn't it? Now I can't take reviews at face value. Instead, I have to read the reviewers other reviews; and probably other reviews of the people he's reviewed; and on and on. Wouldn't it be nice to have a degree of confidence that the reviewer actually saw the provider? Second, even doing that extensive research (which can literally take hours), you can get tripped up by a well-orchestrated disinformation campaign. I had a recent experience where the provider had dozens of reviews. Several (the majority) described her physical appearance one way; the minority gave a rather different depiction. It turned out the minority view was telling the truth, and the majority were lying. The best research can easily be undone by reviewers intent on getting those precious VIP points.
A review site works best once the database of reviews is large enough to include reliable data for an assortment of tastes and locations. If all the reviews were for slightly overweight ladies with fake boobs in Dayton, Ohio, the attraction here would be far less than it is currently. For some, that would be shangri-la, but for others it would be totally worthless.
Offering an incentive to write reviews builds the database. Unfortunately, that incentive creates reason for some to take liberties for personal gain. TER does have some safeguards (problem reporting, IP address checks, etc) to minimize the problem, but it's not a perfect system.
It's my opinion that eliminating the incentive to write reviews would have more of a negative impact than a positive. In any event, I've got more VIP days than I need (from reviewing AND paying) so it won't directly impact me until sometime in '08.
Since I know your taste pretty well, I can't wait for the report.
your implicit or explicit quantitative statements. Statements that 90% of reviews are bullshit and agreement with such a statement is going overboard. Based on the number of posted reviews as I write this reply, then 357,282 bogus reviews exist. Big time hyperbole. You state many providers will say nothing about false positives. Well for sure we could debate 'many' but I've read many postings from many providers who absolutely protest this when it happens to them and take proactive measures to correct it.
You state: 'you have never seen a provider before, and the only thing you have to go on are her reviews, would you not agree that you would feel you were taking a considerable risk relying on someone with only a handful of reviews? And why is that -- because you know a good percentage of reviews are unreliable.'
While I agree to some extent with the premise of the embedded question, I do not agree with your conclusion. If a provider has little review history, then the primary reason for my hesitation is not because I know a handful of her reviews are bogus; it is simply because she has little documented history at all. Whether some are bogus may or may not be true but we can all take steps to try to determine this. Examination of the reviewer's history may tell you a lot. Did he only post a few reviews, are all of his reviews about ladies with a small number of reviews, are his evaluations out of range and non-consistent with the findings of other hobbyists, etc.? There are plenty of ways to catch red flags.
As to the number of reviews posted for a lady and when guys post them or not, I suggest you use the discussion board search utility to find numerous threads on that subject. (I know you can find such recent threads on the FL board and Porn Star board within the past 90-days). In any case, there are ladies who ask clients to refrain from posting reviews. Many gents honor these requests and of course some do not. There are guys who don't post reviews, there are some who do so on occasion and there are some who do it always. You will read that they all have their reasons and opinions and many are quite legitimate for themselves. Enlighten yourself on these diverse reasons why some don't bother. You may not agree with their tact but don't simply categorize non-reviewers as lazy.
As for mandatory payment requirements for VIP status, I can go on for a long time about my opinion of the pros/cons of such action. But two stand out. There are honest people and there are dishonest people on each side of the provider/client equation. Unlike yourself, I tend to think there are far more honest folks here than not. I would never support a movement that places a penalty of sorts on the majority to try to control the minority. Secondly, why you think that paying folks have a higher level of integrity is beyond me. How do you conclude that today's paying VIP members do not post bogus reviews? Once again do some research on these boards to learn that free VIP credit is not the only driving force behind false reviews.
I'll end by repeating that I think you are correct that there is room for improvement. However I don’t think your suggestion or any of your supporting arguments will remedy what you think is such a pervasive TER problem. As someone has already pointed out you seem to have a 33% rate of some level of disappointment. This from someone with a month long review history. I assure you I am not exaggerating that there are many, many veteran hobbyists out there who have a much higher percentage of satisfaction than you and they have been using TER for years and years. Learn how to use the system better. There are plenty of improvement opportunities for your evaluation skills as well.
-- Modified on 1/31/2007 12:58:08 PM
I think anybody should give a provider a review unless SHE says okay!Most providers are in the business as a steppping stone and not a lifetime.The reviews can ruin their lifes as it was something they did for fun and now the whole world knows.
review, you build up a rep as having great sex... with incredible acts on each and every occasion... then you approach a provider - pull out the reviews, and say, deliver - or else I will blast you.
I have had some ladies tell me that this does occur. so, there are other more nefarious reasons to write reviews.
very well said...
Some reviews are faked. People have various reasons for writing fake reviews -- the reviewer may want the VIP credit, or might be a provider trying to shill up business for themselves, or a hobbyist "white knighting" for a certain lady, or just someone trying to make themselves out as a master cocksman. The only people who know for certain if an encounter took place as described in a review are the people who were present.
The VIP points aren't as useful as one might expect. I found this out a while back when I noticed that I was getting billed every month, even though I'd written some reviews and posted problem reports. It turns out that you can't start using them until you cancel your billing arrangement (which I did a few months ago when I lost my job). I suppose it's possible to build up a store of days by reviewing, cancel your billing, and then wait until the days run out before signing up again for billing, but that's a lot of work for people to keep up with, and I would doubt that many people are doing it that way. TER staff could monitor accounts for signs of this behavior and prohibit re-instituting a member's "paid VIP" status more than once in a defined period -- six months to a year sounds like a decent interval.
The problem with reviews is that you don't have any way to verify the trustworthiness of anyone involved in the process; you generally haven't met either the reviewer or the provider, so you're counting on the review to give you information in order to proceed. In a perfect world, you'd read the review and take it at face value, but since they're subjective in nature, that really isn't enough. Still, you can get information from any review, even if it's negative in nature -- as an example, if a provider has only one or two reviews (all outstanding) and they're written by reviewers with no other reviews, I treat that as a bad sign; it seems to me to point towards someone gaming the TER system to make themselves look good. Someone who will game the system probably isn't going to provide a great experience, so I avoid those providers. If the review seems well-written, detailed, and nuanced, it's much more likely to be a genuine review, and I'll give it more credence.
Some providers just aren't going to get many reviews, for whatever reason. They might be new, or only seeing a limited number of clients, or in a geographic area that doesn't get a lot of TER members. You just learn to deal with that, and evaluate on whatever you have.
If I were to recommend changes... I'd let providers add notes to a review, and just put it out there. You'd get some "he said, she said", but at least people would know. I'd let reviewers indicate changes to the profile, instead of just going with the information set by the first guy who reviewed a provider; I've seen some really stupid selections, and some things get outdated. I'd allow a "bullshit flag" that readers can submit on reviews; this would work much like a Wikipedia article being flagged for review. If a given review draws a certain number of flags, someone would evaluate it -- if it appears fake, and the person doesn't respond to emails to defend it, it could be pulled. While there is some potential for abuse here, moderators could hopefully stay on top of the situation.
'I'd let reviewers indicate changes to the profile, instead of just going with the information set by the first guy who reviewed a provider'
Providers and hobbyists alike can and do take this corrective action. There is a 'report problem' tab on every providers profile. You can report outdated info and such and if accepted the correction will be made. I'm not saying this always works. I have had success at times doing this and I've read similar accounts from other hobbyists and ladies. I've also read where such requests were denied. In any case the option you describe is there.
-- Modified on 1/31/2007 1:36:15 PM
I was actually thinking of something like the system for reviews at ASPD, where changes are generally highlighted. It might look like "Her profile says no piercings, but she's now sporting nipple rings" as a block of text at the beginning of the review.
It's mostly optional, but you wind up spending about the same time as if you were filling in all the blanks in a TER review.
I did that just today on a review that made no sense. 2 days VIP credit later, the review is gone and since it was the first for the provider, I'd guess there were shenanigans going on.
I like the idea, because so many times you read a review and want to comment, but it seems impolite to go to the local board and scream out...did you see what stupid wrote???
and I agree- the VIP points are not as useful as one might think. When I first started hobbying - I built up quite a "bank" of days. (I reviewed under a different name back then.) then I slowed down... and the days went away very quickly... too quickly. Found myself with partial information because while the numbers tell a story, it is not complete without the comments... and you really do need to review the reviewers....
and some providers that I have seen, well, lets just say I do not know how to review them... I read one person's review of a lady that I found unreviewable... and he actually found the appropriate words... it fit the lady well.... but I could not find those words...
TER is not perfect, but ask youselves this, would you prefer the hobby without it? or with it...? me, there is no question - I prefer with. not to mention the snazzy discussions on the revamped political and religious board....lol!
TER is as good as it gets, not a perfect system...nothing is. But as a provider,keeps me on my toes, as a hobbist, keeps me focused.
It is a good gauge of where we are at, a stock report, as i see it...not the end all, but a very accurate guage, on akl sides...
-- Modified on 2/1/2007 3:18:55 AM
I made formal complaints to the Staff re 2 reviews that were blatantly false. The reviewers ticked me off because I foolishly trusted them and they lead me down an unfortunate path. At any rate, to their great credit, the Staff investigated, and pulled both bogus reviews. They also said they will watch these particular reviewers more closely. I think the key was that the reviews included *facts* that were more or less verifiably false.
One lesson could be, *see, the system works.* I'd like to think that, but I'm not sure. I do think that some of the people who posted above in response to me had a variety of good ideas to improve things, some of which may work, some not.
I think it is incumbent on all of us to continue to think out of the box with ideas to improve the system, and if someone comes up with something, consider it with an open mind.
I also think it is incumbent on each of us when you see blatant bullshit to tell the Staff. If you're a hobbyist and you get burned by a bogus review, don't be afraid to complain. If you're a provider and someone says they saw you when they didn't, get that review knocked off your profile. It is probably necessary to have the goods -- some concrete proof that the reviewer was lying. But I was impressed with how quickly the Staff responded.
Lastly, I would again encourage hobbysists to not sugarcoat the truth, even to be nice. I will give generous praise when it is due, but I would not twist or leave out important facts. I saw a bunch of reviews for one provider (whom I have not seen) that really impressed me, as did her website. But I kept slogging through all the reviews, until I finally found one that mentioned that this provider will not kiss at all. Wow, I thought, that's weird, how'd I miss that? (Her website does not say anything about the services she provides.) Then I went back and looked at all the prior reviews, and found something very interesting -- they didn't overtly lie and say she did kiss, but they all also conveniently forget to mention that she had an absolute no kissing rule. That's kind of an absurd thing not to mention, in my opinion. I appreciate these guys were trying to be nice, but they are doing a disfavor to their fellow hobbyists, and frankly, a disfavor to other providers.
while I will read and assume that if it was not stated, it did not happen. what i write is what happened.... where I have a problem is sometimes a lady is a little over weight and not worth mentioning, but sometimes a lot.... and worth mentioning.