So this is a bit of value of reviews/info sharing thread but I've not actually seen it specifically discussed on its own.
Also, stepping into the hypothetical rather than staying in the reality, leave out the intentionally misleading actions of the bad actors we know exist.
For me, getting steered to a good provider and a good sessions is much more valuable to me than getting steered away from a bad provider.
Here's my reasoning.
The information that steers me away from bad session and allow me not to waste my money is all fine and good but actually still leaves me with the problem of who it is I am going to see.
My goal is actually to spend the money and have a good time. Getting a good tip that produces that is much better in helping me accomplish that goal than the one the just keeps me from spending my money. Since I know know who I want to see (or perhaps have a number of options that I have to choose among) I really don't care that I have no way to differentiate between the others being worth seeing or someone I really wanted to pass on.
A review can do both. All I need is - - she looks like the pictures, was on time, gave full time , services delivered , and price for said time.
Follow that with would reviewed repeat or recommend .
Do not need to know blow by suck and how many times said reviewer got her off or how wet her pussy was.
-- Modified on 2/9/2021 3:21:31 PM
I don't like big disappointments. I'd rather risk a YMMV situation than walk in to a fugly. "Stay away, her pictures are bs" rings a lot louder than "best bbbj ever."
If you do your homework right it is VERY hard to have a bad session. Reviews are a start but going back channel is the surest way to virtually guarantee a good time. Build up a network of fellow reviewers and monger buddies and you can't go wrong.
One example is a very discriminating friend who called me out of the blue raving about a girl and telling me I simply had to see her. I did and had a great time despite the fact that she didn't even have a review here.
Or just go to Costa Rica, or Panama or some other place where it's legal, watch them do "the walk of shame" and pick out whoever appeals to you.
But yeah, I value steering away a lot more.
There are a lot of reasons.
A bad session to me is more memorable, in a bad way, than a merely average session. So it has a lot more impact on me.
A stay away tip lets me understand the worst case scenario rather than best case scenario. I expect little already, and being disappointed with already little expectation, sucks. Being positively surprised feels a lot better than the other way around.
Like it or not, the steering away in my anecdotal experience is a lot more accurate and detailed than info to see someone, even if it comes from a trusted source with similar taste. A lot of guys can't separate their bias from objective info. In another thread on the kgirl board I've read someone suggesting giving girls high service grade if they're good looking and young, so they get good reviews and stay. This isn't just a slap in the face of integrity, it's a good tell that if someone likes the girl overall they're more likely to give a girl a rec overall without regards for individual components. Whereas, a tip to stay away will detail why to stay away, more often. I've had more correct info about girls I shouldn't see VS girls I should see. Again, anecdotal, yet true for me.
By same token, there is a lot more noise in positive recommendations than there is in negative ones. Given enough info, many people have deal breakers that right away will tell them to not see a girl. Whether its bad service, full bush, and so on. That's just monger preference, and naturally the more such deal breakers you have, the more info you want on that side to make your decision.
Finally, the argument of time= money =opportunity cost. A bad session costs you time, money and usually mood. If you're retired and have free time, that's great. If you aren't and have to juggle your schedule around, that's not as easy. And if you walk, you might get into BL issues with many providers. A disappointing session can put a lot of stress on me, which is the last thing I want in this hobby. As such, I want to avoid it at all costs. I like to have a decent floor of my satisfaction. Decent floor to me matters more than higher potential ceiling.
Not seeing a provider that is potentially great sucks too, but there are a lot of caveats. You never know you'd get the same good experience, you free up opportunity cost, and yes this means sometimes just not seeing anyone and maybe going civvie route or self satisfaction route. Or maybe you just end up working that hour and not working later on your own time.
Imo it all depends on how you value a really bad session and a really good session VS an average session. I'd rather have ten above average sessions and no bad sessions, than two great sessions two bad session and six above average ones. Those two bad sessions aren't worth the great ones to me.
tips on good or bad. If you ignore a tip NOT to see a girl, and see her anyway, it almost always turns out to be just as bad as you were told it would be. On the other hand, not that many positive tips end up being as good as you were led to believe. I think the reason is that there is often other motivations on the part of mongers in recommending somebody see a certain girl, while there is virtually nothing to be gained from spreading the word that a particular girl is subpar. Its pure altruism for your fellow mongers.
Jensen asked us to ignore bad actors, so I'm ignoring them altogether in my response. When you include them, it becomes a landslide.
On other hand, you can argue that your trusted circle shouldnt have these actors. I've had plenty of situations when my rec want liked by mongers I've recd the girl to. It's inevitable. Even with service girls, rare but it happens.
I was always honest about them tho and no one ever would think I misled them on purpose. Plus it helps that people know how ardent I am in being anti-bs,lol.
If you're trying to manipulate the results of the poll. Guys with an agenda who recommend or promote certain girls are not always identifiable until, at some point, it becomes obvious. By then, how many guys have been scammed into seeing a girl based on a false report? The only way you are going to eliminate this element is to do as Nick says, and backchannel by PM with a trusted circle of long-term hobby bro's.
Its not an exact science anyway because of the YMMV factor in the varying levels of experience and social skills from monger to monger.
hypothetical better than most of the others.
I suppose I'll need to take the blame for not being clearer because most the answers have nothing to do with the actually question I wanted to ask. So it goes.
Why "at least"? You didn't like what I had to say? :p
Is that a Vonnegut reference at the end? If so, I like it.
-- Modified on 2/9/2021 7:18:10 PM
"at least" in the sense that just about everyone else responding completely missed the point. The last bit was simply acknowledging that if just about everyone misunderstood it is probably not because they are unintelligent but that I was not clear.
However, just so I don't come across as confusing or overly nice to you, it is true that about 90% of what you wrote had nothing to do with the actual question and idea I was trying to get at.
I have no fucking clue what he was asking, so I heeded his advice not to be a “bad actor”.
So I didn’t “act” like I knew what he was talking about.
Jensen...? What the hell are you asking?
Snake 🐍
Great response and good question.
The basic question I was trying to get at was if negative reviews are really more valuable than positive reviews. That claim seems to be driven by the view that having a bad session is significantly worse relative to the pleasure gained from a good session. But is that actually true or is that a mistaken view?
The "ignore the bad actors" was basically about assuming the reviews are honest and real.
To me it's a bit of a no-brainer that most people would probably not even read the bad reviews because their interest is actually to spend the money and have fun.
Why care about that as it doesn't have any application or import to the real situations? For me it suggest an approach to using a review site. The general view about getting guys to write honest reviews, to call out fake reviews and place more weight on negative reviews over the positive ones misses a point. Neither I nor you really have any control of what others are going to do. We don't get to have a clean and honest review DB we can just search, read and think we know the truth about who to see. (I don't think anyone with much experience thinks that is true either). But that doesn't really help figure out how best to find the reviews that are going to help you see a good provider. There is a different strategy needed for that.
But I think as long as the "general consensus" is that negative reviews are more valuable then positive reviews then people start focusing on the wrong things and I think some never quite figure out how to separate the wheat from the chafe and start doubling down on the negative view and likely have less fun than they could.
Maybe other factors are important. That is, at low cost per hour, poor reviews might be more important. (Quick search to rule out anything really bad, but willing to take a chance with something not too bad.) At high cost per hour, a positive review might be much more important. (Do NOT want to take a bigger risk without better info.)
Great response and good question.
The basic question I was trying to get at was if negative reviews are really more valuable than positive reviews. That claim seems to be driven by the view that having a bad session is significantly worse relative to the pleasure gained from a good session. But is that actually true or is that a mistaken view?
The "ignore the bad actors" was basically about assuming the reviews are honest and real.
To me it's a bit of a no-brainer that most people would probably not even read the bad reviews because their interest is actually to spend the money and have fun.
Why care about that as it doesn't have any application or import to the real situations? For me it suggest an approach to using a review site. The general view about getting guys to write honest reviews, to call out fake reviews and place more weight on negative reviews over the positive ones misses a point. Neither I nor you really have any control of what others are going to do. We don't get to have a clean and honest review DB we can just search, read and think we know the truth about who to see. (I don't think anyone with much experience thinks that is true either). But that doesn't really help figure out how best to find the reviews that are going to help you see a good provider. There is a different strategy needed for that.
But I think as long as the "general consensus" is that negative reviews are more valuable then positive reviews then people start focusing on the wrong things and I think some never quite figure out how to separate the wheat from the chafe and start doubling down on the negative view and likely have less fun than they could.
So - again - you have no real evidence to support your general claim, especially this one-
"To me it's a bit of a no-brainer that most people would probably not even read the bad reviews "
There is research suggesting the exact opposite of what you say.
http://spiegel.medill.northwestern.edu/_pdf/Spiegel_Online%20Review_eBook_Jun2017_FINAL.pdf
I quote,
site when they interact with negative reviews, with a 67% increase in conversion rate.
Even for most successful, most popular/iconic and reliable products in their range - such as iPhones, luxury/sports vehicles and so on, people still read bad reviews...and obviously write them.
As far as impact of bad session vs good session, it depends on you and you only, there is no right answer or wrong answer. If my night is ruined because of a bad session, and I scheduled 4 sessions, then guess what - I'm not gonna be a happy camper.
Again, you let your own view cloud your objectivity here. Furthermore, if we go to reality, we are on a site where the sellers can and do actively persecute reviewers who write negative reviews, no matter the honesty. The negative reviews are in such a minority, and there is so little incentive for people to write them, they are far better indication
Here's another link, this time talking about doctor reviews online and why patients value negative reviews:
http://www.pressganey.com/blog/why-patients-seek-out-negative-reviews
Please read through the first point. "we want to mitigate risk". Risk mitigation is important to many people. In many aspects of life, not making a bad mistake is a lot more important than making a good choice. It's applicable to high-pressure jobs, sports, reliability services and so forth.
You trying to say that such viewpoint is simply wrong, is disrespectful to such people, imo.
This whole concept is about stepping away from the messy world where ALL or information in imperfect. I've already said I understand the reason that people in the messy world would act as they do. That is fully consistent with your source (Which, if the same as before, is from a company that sells rating management software and the study more a market tools than some clearly objective analysis.)
However, the logical exercise was to remove the messiness and really compare the value one can get from types of reviews. Your arguments and your source don't do that.
Risk mitigation applies to perfect world scenarios as well. Doctors can be bad. Providers can be bad. Knowing which doctors or providers to avoid at all costs is more valuable to me than knowing which providers to go to.
Is the concept of risk mitigation not clear to you? Knowing that a doctor is a bad doctor and avoiding him at all cost is more important to me to know which doctor is good. Because worst case scenario avoidance (death permanent injury or health deterioration) is more important to me than best case scenario. And I will also tell others to avoid such doctor. In a perfect world scenario where every review is true.
Now, to value of negative reviews of generally acceptable commodities.
Iphones or MacBook pros are well known products and yet many people, me included, read the bad reviews to understand what is bad about them.
These are generally reliable products.
You argument is that people don't even need bad reviews in perfect world where all reviews are perfectly honest. My argument is no, they still need them. To compare pros and cons you need to see bad reviews. You need to understand worst case scenarios. Compare and contrast is a thing.
The value you get from a negative review is immense either in real world or perfect world. Many people don't write reviews, but will come out and write a review if they really dislike a product. And again, using risk mitigation concept and being a techie, I want to know the worst case scenario.
Jensen, I believe you also are in the field at least related to technology. I believe you are aware that systems are created and tested with worst case scenarios in mind because if you cant handle it, your system is crap.
And yes, I want to know the worst case scenarios. I want to know what to avoid.
-- Modified on 2/11/2021 1:08:00 PM
My argument was NEVER people don't need bad reviews. My hypothesis is that for most guys (and gals) they get more value from knowing who to see for actually having a good experience than they do from know who not to give their money to.
The hypothetical was to see if that was in fact true or not. It seems that is not the case for you. I have no idea about the others.
OK, so you agree that I have a case for my opinion and can express it without being ridiculed.
Thank you.
I do think that such a hypothesis needs a bit more thorough testing than simply asking peoples preference. At the very least, the definiton of a bad session and good session, as well as negative and positive reviews, need to be defined in a reasonable but clear manner imo. Something like a r_o_b review I'm sure people will be far more inclined to be aware of,rather than a simple ymmv session.
Weve already seen people not be on the same page when talking about definition of negative reviews.
I hate to get involved in a discussion where the little rocket lad is a participant, but I don’t think your respective points are mutually exclusive. When selecting and vetting providers I’m interested in reading both good and bad reviews. The bad will tell me who to stay away from, and the good will help me to find a provider with whom I’m compatible. No reason that I have to pick only good or bad reviews to read.
90%? Hmmm. So which 10% did have to do with your idea?
I did think that your question was essentially the comparison of
"getting steered to a good provider and a good session" vs " getting steered away from a bad provider".
So I am interested which 10% did I get "right" here, because most if not all of my post is talking exactly about which side I prefer and why.
What we have in reality is imperfect information with both good and bad so I think it's a bit hard to tell if the benefits of a good session are generally greater than the costs of a bad session for most people.
The hypothetical (that was clearly not well presented) was you get to live in a world of imperfect information but it's different from what we have. You get to have very good and accurate information on either who to see or who to avoid. This is not complete information so you don't get to know about ALL the good providers or ALL the bad providers so you really cannot make an easy assessment of the set of those without a review In fact you don't even know the overall ratios in the total population but you get to filter some from one side or the other.
In other words, you have an average "bad" session and assign that some negative value. You have an average "good" session and assign a value to that. You add the two values, is it greater than 0 or less than 0? You seemed to indicate that your expectation is negative -- a bad session will generally out weigh a good one. That was the 10%.
What might be interesting here, if for you the sum of a good and a bad session would be less than zero, I would think you would want to pick the hypothetical world were you get the pointers to the good providers but I think (and didn't really read or pay attention) most or your post was about justifying living in the hypothetical world of getting warned away.
Even if we're going by this expected value concept, ie +EV notion, I'd argue I had more than 10% there. Lol
I clearly stated that its a -EV for me, and then mentioned why. The stress, the opportunity cost and so on.
I would also add that I usually don't have just one session per day. I'm a binger. A bad session can easily ruin the other ones and set the mood for the entire day.
Kinda like if you toss a spoon of crap into a barrel of wine, you have a barrel of crap. Call me Debbie Downer or whatever, but I don't think it's a rare concept. Same thing happens with providers who can run into a customer who can ruin their entire day for them.
I can only recall taking recommendations twice ever. Once from my ATF traveling provider who recommended her cousin who was traveling with her (not for doubles), and I had an awesome time with her. The second time, it was a recommendation from another hobbyist I’ve known for about 10 years, and the provider he recommended had fairly decent reviews to match. Let’s just say that this one is the reason I don’t bother with recommendations or value a majority of reviews anymore. We all have different tastes, and I seem to have a different taste than most of the last 30 people to have reviewed said provider (albeit, 90% were first time reviewers). I can still give myself the shivers if I think too long about said provider as I was thoroughly disgusted with her, her place, the session, and then myself. Thankfully, it made me rethink where and how I shop.
I mention all of this because, in doing my own due diligence, I tend to value both good and bad reviews because I think it’s wiser to rely on certain veteran reviewers. When one of those vets throws up too many reviews that I totally disagree with, then I stop relying on their reviews. When I see a review that I agree with (agreement meaning as compared to what I experienced), I might add the reviewer to my mental list of those to rely on.
I also have decided to see providers I may not have been interested in before based on their online attitude, whether it be here on the boards or elsewhere, and have done so several times. Naturally, it depended on what their profile and reviews told me, but this is another reason I appreciate providers participating on these boards. IMO, if a provider can participate here without letting the negative few get to them, I would imagine that they are likely to gain some clients. Conversely, when a reviewer tends to have a shitty attitude on these boards, I end up disregarding anything they say here or in their reviews and don’t bother reading anything they contribute anymore.
But in recent memory, I :
Took a rec from a board member that led me to try my CF. - worked out great
Took a rec from the booker to book the last appointment of the last day of AMANDA's latest DMV tour, instead of waiting an extra 30 mins for her roommate to free up, and Amanda is now arguably my ATF (CF is certainly challenging her though lol) - worked out great. Though I never did get to see her roommate, lol.
Took a rec from a TER buddy in PMs to see a girl that I swear to freaking god was a bait and switch - didn't work out so great, but I actually don't think it was his fault, it was the agency's fault
I actually can't remember the last time I was steered AWAY, if ever, but the times I've been steered TO, worked out great, so that's my vote.
Reviews are subjective, and can only tell you so much. Twitter is a different animal. A provider's personality will ooze out through her tweets, and if you can read between the lines, it will be easy to figure out who's compatible with you. Not to mention steering you clear of the BSC crowd.
I buy in based on service first, looks second and don't really give a fuck about their personality since it is faked anyway.
As long as reviews are consistent with the "juicy details," they are not subjective. This assumes she has 10 or more reviews by experienced reviewers.
enthusiasm these ladies show about seeing us is not real? I'm shocked, shocked, I say!!! Lol
I actually buy in on looks first, if she is an OTHFB, quite frankly I don't care about the rest. I buy in on service second, but I most definitely do give a fuck about her personality, faking a good personality if she doesn't actually have one is part of the service I expect. lol
Back to Twitter, I have NEVER booked a provider because of her Twitter, I will concede I have written off several after reading just a few of their tweets though. I absolutely refuse to see any of those MHBs that seem to dominate the Twittersphere, not even if they have page after page of 10-10 reviews.
Let me ask you this - what do you think providers would choose - to be steered away from bad customers or steered to good ones?
Let's put it in perspective here.
What providers think have nothing to do with my question or what I was a bit curious about. Why must you ALWAY pass your thoughts though that lens of yours? And please don't answer; it was rhetorical.
I thought it's a similar enough question, the answers to which you also might be interested in.. and that would also give you perspective on bad sessions versus good sessions,from another viewpoint.
Sorry, I guess I was wrong. You're telling me to widen my perspective instead, yet don't want to look it from the other side. OK, gotcha.
What lens are you talking about again?
-- Modified on 2/10/2021 7:03:15 PM
There's a legend in the Bay named HaRa, TER ID # 283355. She did a tour back in 2016 then disappeared for three years. She's fucking awesome!!!!! Her reviews reflect how FUCKING AWESOME she is too. She reappeared in 2019 for a month but her reviews spoke for themselves. Winner after winner after winner...
Ding
Ding
Ding
YMMV
-- Modified on 2/10/2021 11:31:14 PM
sometimes to be honest and try to offer a great time with someone who take 1 date and gets good service (not controlling time, my own flat, everything clean, bar service) in Amsterdam, and this guy wants to come for second time the next day trying to obligate you to offer 50% discount of your fee and you say NO, he decide to satify his own selfish interest and write a bad experience of you and your flat. But if all the conditions were terribles, why you try to come back again in 24hs?
Some guys are not honest and try to get extras using dirty techniques. I had this experience here and nobody sopped him.
What if the review was written in a 'binary' fashion versus good and bad. You have that as the first part of the TER review under Appearances and Services Offered. There are only a few 'negatives' or subjective ratings; massage quality, breast appearance, and photo appearance. Reviews could stop at that point, but its more helpful to have the commentary section. So, I think this is where OP is going.
The written review section is commentary and providing nuance to the session. So, she provided DFK. Is it sensual DFK or she darted her tongue in and out of your month. Some guys like that, some don't. Was it a full non-rush session.I can pop and be done in 30 minutes, but enjoy talking with a provider the last 30 minutes with some massage thrown-in. Or did she keep going hard at the BJ and not letting up and me popping. Then she goes to shower and then sits next to me for 45 minutes waiting for me to go. Some would say the former AND latter are negatives.
Out of 10 reviews, 9 are 'positive' and 1 is bad. I don't need to read all 9 positive reviews to get a sense of the good. I'll sometimes read the bad review to get a sense of why it was a bad experience. I'm not focusing on the bad, its part of data collection. If the reviews are all 10/9s I'll read the bad review to see if all the positives are 'real'. If there are 20 10/9 reviews and one 5/3 review, I'm not even looking at the 5/3, even out of morbid curiosity.
So, am I focusing on the bad? No. It's all part of data gathering. Hope I'm understanding your question. Under our current situation in the DC area, the review system is out of whack. If you're fed a steady stream of - pre COVID - "looks of 7" level providers, that resets the 'norm' and now that is the 8 or even 9. When a pre-covid 8 comes along, a lot of guys are "wow", but only in comparison to the adjusted levels and expectations. So, if your expectation level is still pre COVID, you're bound to be disappointedbwith current day reviews.
Bottom Line? Who do you see and not waste time or money? I have no answer for you other than read ALL the reviews and visit other sites and data gather. Unfortunately you can spend a lot of time and still lose. In the K-girl world, its even harder because once you find a favorite, she moves on in a few weeks.
How ugly or pretty the community thinks a provider is relative to your personal bar for beauty. Eg, i rate about 1 point lower on average than tER members give on average.
Performance reviews tell you if what the effort level is relative to their menu: if the girl gets 10s she is doing something to get 10s...if she’s a 5 she’d better be dirt cheap and you could be getting a shot later.
OP You still have to do your homework and chemistry is very individual. Your good time depends on how easy you are to please. It’s not ALL the provider’s fault
ADJ
For everything. Providers, restaurants, hotels, movies, books, etc. In general, those reviewers are going to describe exactly what led to their score. Then, I look through the positive reviews for trends of the same. For instance, a bad review may say "I arrived at her hotel, called and left a voicemail and she relied 15 minutes later telling me she needed another 15 minutes". In a positive review, you might see this written as "I arrived at her hotel, called and left a voicemail and she called back a few minutes later asking me to give her a couple more minutes to finish getting ready." If I see enough reviews that mention a late start, I just move on to a different lady.
People, in general, are biased towards NOT giving bad reviews and couch their words to minimize any negative impression.
Exactly ! I look at negative reviews first in everything. If there is a glaring issue with a product, it is extremely likely to be mentioned in details in those.
and focus on those that are relatively consistent. I view the high reviews as shills and the low as revenge reviews or reviews by assholes. I believe that in general, you get a better picture of a provider from those more consistently rated reviews in the middle ground.
What really decides me are her pics and her profile, the profile must be supported by the bulk of her reviews. When that happens, I know I have a winner.
Another technique that probably works best is a recommendation by another provider or by a fellow hobbyist. These have been some of my very best experiences.