I posted a thread (lower down on this board) about the new survey question. I just thought I'd say, I thank everyone for their answers. I wasn't involved in the thread, except for starting it, because I had to zip out of town for bid'ness immediately thereafter. But I read it all, and I found it good food for thought.

I'm still feeling like a loozer, by the way -- I personally hobby in order to get laid by women whom I consider "beautiful enough" for me to want to screw them. I have never been able to coordinate that sort of arrangement in the civilian world, don't know why, guess I just lack the social skills. Anyway, the survey simply reminded me, from a new and equally devastating point of view, just how unusual (and probably dysfunctional?) my experience is. What to do what to do ... harrumph ...

Like yourself, I hobby to spend time with beautiful women. Would they give me the time of day otherwise?  I don't know.  But for an hour or two, it just doesn't matter.

By the way, I didn't get laid until I was 26 (I'm 37 now).  And it wasn't because of a lack of available women, it was just because I lacked confidence.  And the hobby is GREAT for improving confidence, IMO.

You needn't feel like a loser, Bro'.  There's been a lot of talk on the board lately about how the Internet has changed the hobby, but the Internet has also changed how civilians date, as well.  Women these days are much more selective about the men they see because they think they can be...if you're not perfect, there's another potentially perfect mate just ten minutes of searching away.  (That's the illusion, anyway...a lot of women fall for it.)  It puts tremendous pressure on the male of the species to perform right out of the box.  They simply feel they can afford to be disinterested and wait for the "WOW."

Having been divorced for nine years and dating for most of that time, I can't tell you how many disastrous first dates I've had.  After a while, the rejection gets pretty old.  What's the old saying about the definition of insanity?  "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, while hoping for a different outcome."  So...I stopped the insanity and went looking for a provider I could connect with on a deeper level than what I imagined was the norm among providers.  

I found her.  

Nothing any civilian woman has ever said to me can compare to what my favorite lady said at a vulnerable moment a couple weeks ago: "You are a remarkable man."  

If anything, I've found that time spent with a good provider is much more honest than at least 90% of my dates with civilian women.  Honesty was what I was looking for.

As a brother-in-arms, the advice I'd offer you is to let go of the notion that you're a loser and embrace the qualities about you that give you confidence.  Work on THAT above all else.

Yoda

You might consider taking a different look at the word around you. I include a couple of your comments, one from this thread and one from a past thread that kind of bothered me.

"I personally hobby in order to get laid by women whom I consider "beautiful enough" for me to want to screw them."

"Hey, I got lots of fat ugly female friends. I know them very well. I respect them. I value their opinions. They're great fun, they probably know how to give good head, they're open about sex and they're really easy to hang out with. I still don't want to fuck 'em. They're fat and ugly, and I'm a human heterosexual male, or so says my biology. Can't change that fact."

I, like most fellows, have a number of female friends that could fall into the category you describe as fat and ugly. However, I would not describe them as fat and ugly - on the contrary, I am often greatly aroused by all of the subtle things that make each one of them very much a woman.

Do yourself a favor and open up your senses a bit. You might discover that you are not a loser.

Rick,

Well said.  

I've personally never known a woman who did not turn me on in some way as I've taken the time to get to know her.

Yoda

Hey, I know, I know, this "need" of mine for a certain level of physical attractiveness is my own worst handicap. You do right to point out my own statements. They aren't hypocritical, I hasten to add -- nowhere in there have I really contradicted my own first principle, that there's a certain "bare minimum" of physical attraction I require in my partner. (The quotes are taken out of context, as well, as I'm sure you'll admit. So, they don't fairly represent my attitude toward my "fat ... ugly" friends, about whom I am generally much less crass or dismissive than the citations seem to represent.)

Here's the thing.

1. I can't do it. I've TRIED dating women whom I "ought" to have been able to find "attractive enough" but that always led to me discovering that DESIRE CANNOT BE PREDICATED. No matter how much I thought they were wonderful people, or really liked their jokes, or saw them being kind to small hurt animals, their asses and tits didn't get a rise out of my dick. In the long run, it seemed a really cruel and patronizing thing to do, to deliberately 'force' myself into these politically correct liasons in which I tried to blind myself. It was just not going to work, and wasn't a respectful way to treat the woman either. She deserves a man who is stunned and delighted by her presence, as much as I deserve a woman who stuns and delights me.

2. Your suggestions taken even a slight distance further would inevitably lead to the conclusion that you don't need to hobby either. If women are so danged wonderful regardless of what they look like, then ... ya see where I'm going with it ... why not just get us someone friendly and not be attracted to people who look great on their providering websites?

I'll remind you of the time that a stunningly visually attractive woman posted here about her wonderful sexual experience in a threesome, and how she was unhappy that such wonderful experiences couldn't be shared among the thousands of horny and isolated men and women the world over. Thousands of horny men promptly responded, "I'll volunteer!" Of course, she wasn't about to lower her rates to help us "see the goddess," and she only had that wonderful experience in the context of being able to MAKE demands on the level of desirability of her partners. She wasn't out there happily volunteering to fuck fat slobs with no social skills for free. Your suggestion is tantamount to hers: patronizing, for it presumes reality need not impinge on your fantasies of how open-minded you are.

I realize the "solution" seems pretty straightforward. It may be, in YOUR life and YOUR mind. But my dick and head don't cooperate so fully.

Further, my initial commentary was as much about my own lack of "social skills" back when, in the day, and throughout my life, as it was about the current state of things. I was bemoaning what I perceive, now in the light of the new survey results, to be even more of a pariah status than I had originally thought I occupied. I wasn't so much stating I couldn't get laid, I was stating I haven't had many satisfying experiences sexually. For me, providering is (and I don't see the problem with this statement, in or out of context) the only way to access women whose level of beauty is a necessity for erection, orgasm, basal metabolic fulfillment. It depresses me, and I don't mean to defend this attitude of mine; but it's the only one I came with, hard-wired. Short of gouging out my eyes, or a strange Manchurian brainwashing procedure, what would you suggest? A namby-pamby "open your mind" is insufficiently anti-intellectual, and totally un-thought-out. Try harder. :P

Now, I don't mean to be flip, so I should rephrase that last statement of mine. Is it indeed the case that you're capable of heeding your own advice, and (like so few people who laud the beauty of "every woman" no matter what she looks like) have married a stunningly butt-ugly but very friendly person? Or are you still interested in the variety of beauty represented among women appearing on web pages posted at $300 an hour?

I saw "Shallow Hal" and didn't get it. First, when he saw the "real beauty" when he was brainwashed, what he saw was physically beautiful women; this contradicts the premise that physical beauty should be unnecessary. Second, I didn't find the fat woman attractive regardless of whether Hal thinks he did; this contradicts the premise that we can learn to change our preferences.

How did this become a discussion of whether or not I like people in the "right" kind of way? I really thought it was a discussion about when people managed (probably as much by dumb luck as by social skills) to get their first bang, back in High School when the "right" way was up for grabs, confusing, totally rearranging every evening as new information bombarded our adolescent psyches. I'm not really up for being told I'm a shallow jerk for wanting a hot fuck; especially not on a board devoted to providers. If my preferences have to be politically correct even here, then where can I just be a normal adult human heterosexual male acting the way he was born to act, the way he will always want to act, the way he HAS TO? If not here, then where? geez ...


-- Modified on 2/28/2004 3:23:58 PM

Just reacting to your comment about still feeling like a loser - no reason a person has to feel that way.

You seem to become more conflicted with every word you type.  So, you like thin women for sex and cannot get into it with heavy women.  Life is not a mystery, simply accept the choices that you make and move on.  You will become a happier and less conflicted person instantly.

-- Modified on 2/28/2004 6:28:00 PM

-- Modified on 2/28/2004 6:29:19 PM

I've accepted most of my OWN choices. The hard part, is getting NATURE'S choices about what other people I prefer, to reconcile with THOSE OTHER PEOPLE'S choices about whether or not they prefer me. So far, the ones that nature makes me want, don't want me, and I have yet to find a solution. Seems like a mystery to me ...

"Life isn't a mystery." Harrumph. Who said it was? I'm just saying I can't get laid ... and your advice is SOOO useful: "just get laid." Hahahahahah ... grr ...

-- Modified on 2/28/2004 6:40:25 PM

Now, you know what some of us ladies have to go through (in our civilian lives), when we want a male with movie star looks, but get
Yogi the bear, chasing after us LOL

ACCEPT the choices that you make, AND the ones that you cannot change.  I am still sticking with the stop typing and go get laid suggestion, that should not be difficult for you with 14 reviews, maybe you should do solid research first to improve your chances of being happy afterward.  I am also sticking with life not being a mystery.  Did I miss something?!

-- Modified on 2/28/2004 7:04:40 PM

-- Modified on 2/28/2004 7:05:26 PM

-- Modified on 2/28/2004 7:08:58 PM

You're not a loser but everyone does thier damnest to make you feel like a loser. You're right " It puts tremendous pressure on the male of the species to perform right out of the box."

Then you have guys who can play a women like a violin, these are societies winners. I had many friends that were women and they would tell me how great their BF are until the break up. Then is crying time. Once I wanted to say "Have you ever heard that sound love the one you're with?"   I know I could get her on the rebound but that would have it own problems.  This is scenario that play out way to often in my live.

What was all that spun out diatribe? Can you give us the Cliff Notes? It's painfully drawn out. Can you put a summary on my desk in the morning?

Back in the day when I used to date, someone told me its a numbers game. Get out and crunch them digits, hit on women left and right, try hello and a smile. Big one. Smart chicks are good, they know to look for something other than normal in a mate, they admire eccentricities. But why ask, its on a shelf for $11.95. The hip old wool hat is at the thrift store. Good luck. Practice makes perfect.

I'm in the same boat...I know the providers I have seen probably wouldn't even give me a second glance if they were to see me on the street or whatever for the first time.

I also hobby to spend time with beautiful women and to fulfill my fantasies. The providers I have been with, I'm pretty sure I could never date them in the civilian world. Not because I'm too good for them but exactly the opposite.

The first time I consider myself losing my virginity (I had done other things with girls but nothing fully sexual) was to a provider. That was actually in 2003...I'm 26 btw.
I could have lost it sooner but thats a whole other story :-|

Fair enuf

OK I get ya now. When you said, "Go get laid," you meant "with a provider." I guess that from your point of view -- implying that a sexual release might lead to less angst-ridden personal frustration about life as a whole -- that's intelligent advice, thank you.

But from my point of view -- implying that sex with providers is a frustration in itself, because it reminds me of how poor my "civilian life" options are, by comparison; and simply drives home the idea that I've not had a functional experience up to now -- it's simply rubbing salt in the wound.

So, I thank you for your concern, but gee doctor, it hurts when you do that.

For the attention-span impaired, and others of the Sesame Street generation:

In my life there has never been an intersection between the group I find attractive enough to get a boner for, and the group that finds me attractive. I do not claim this is novel. I merely claim that the new survey painfully reminds me of this fact again. And, in fact, I would expect that men who regularly visit providers would be more similar to me, in that their hobbying was based partly on a need for access to attractive women, an access they cannot get other than by paying a provider for it.

Somehow this has turned into a "gaze into Book Guy's navel" discussion. I had really been more interested in the "gaze into the cultural implications of when people lose their virginity" discussion. I guess folks found it more fun to tell me I liked women in the "wrong" way and to politically-correct me about female appearance.

Been there many times. That's why I've been 'hobbying' for the past 4 years. BTW, I'm 54 and have been married.  The pay as you go basis for what you want is better. I can read the reviews, check out the ads and pick the flavor I want.

Book_guy,

Sorry if my posts on the subject were misunderstood.  I guess I missed your point.  I do think you're being too sensitive about some of the posts here, and far too critical of yourself.

It is okay to be attracted to the women you're attracted to, and it is okay to not want to have sex with the women you consider unattractive.  As long as you're not hurting anybody and you're being honest with yourself, there shouldn't be any problem.

Yoda

Thanks for your comments, Master Yoda. I didn't really take your previous statements amiss -- it was some other patronizing comments I was referring to.

Anyhoo ...

I know where you're coming from. I'm basically in a
similar situation. I have been going with the "pros"
since the age of 19 (I started young) and have been doing
it ever since. I'm 38 now and have never had a girlfriend
or a regular date. A part of me does feel like a loser, but
there is another side. When I see (or read about) guys who
are miserable, stuck with a wife & kids, or divorced and
paying alimony & child support and in financial ruin, I
can't help but think that I'm actually better off.

Even though I pay for it, I get sex with beautiful girls who are
sometimes half my age, who are much more accomodating than the
typical "girlfriend type" (the kind who say "I don't do that"),
and I never have to go to her mother's birthday party or her
cousin's wedding.

Sure, it would be a great ego booster to have a girl want me for
myself, but I am not Donald Trump or Tommy Lee, and the kind
of girl I would end up with would not be up to my high standards
of physical attraction (on her part - not mine!). Anyway, from
what I have observed, people are problems, and by not being
married or even having a girlfriend I have avoided many of life's
problems that plague other guys.

The one thing I will say though,seeing prostitutes does make me worry quite a bit about STDs. I think I may have taken 20 years off my life just stressing over catching one of the serious ones.
I guess having a girlfriend does have some advantages afterall.

I hobby for pretty much the same reasons as you stated
book_guy but I don't look at myself as a loser. More aptly I look at myself as one of the financially challenged. THis fact more than any other determins a modern males chances with beautiful women. Sure there a plenty of poor guys with good "game" that temporarilly scores them hotties, but once the lady(s) figures out his true financial status....Poof-gone!
   A civilian woman is looking to the future; Her future divorce setlement to be specific. The prettier she is the more chance she will hook a rich one and retire alone in comfort.
Providers at least offer us more humble men a chance at bat and without the threat of taking "HALF" of everything at a later date. Personally I look at that as making me a bit of a winner

Do they have to be hot young tamales? I see all sorts of MILFs strolling around, and if they make me take a double take, they must entice arousal in you guys. I have even seen GILFs! Older women like younger guys. Hey, I'm in my thirties, and I am having a ball.

However, I can relate to the dating thing. Remember I posted back a bit about going on a date (free) with a client? Well, its been 3 weeks, no movie date, no shared popcorn...I can be sympathetic...lol... Dating sucks.

Hooee you sure are cynical. I don't think I'd go that far, especially not about the divorce settlement -- it's my impression that young women are thinking more about the wedding than anything else. As in, the ceremony. The chance to wear a silly dress and hear bells.

What does IAATM stand for?

They don't have to be "young." They just have to be whatever my hard-wiring requires them to be -- attractive to me. That's all. It seems like such a simple concept ... I've long since given up on more deep ideas, like choosing among various options those people with whom I have the greatest connection, or finding people I really like who share interests with me, or figuring out how to balance work and love. I don't have the luxury to be that selective -- the rejecto-quotient among normal females (maybe they're just playing hard to get?) is so high I would be a fool to increase my own selectivity.

Gosh, wouldn't life have been great, if I'd actually had the liberty to choose a partner?

That book "The Rules" is a bible. They follow that book, and study it ad naseum. This is a major reason I don't have many female friends. They talk about this book, and bash men, and whine.  I would rather shoot pool with my homies in a bar with sawdust on the floor.

I don't want to be so negative to your gender! There are "games" that boys play, as well, and in fact we're ALL involved in one "game" or another all the time. We try, some of us, to reduce the silliness of it all, and really cut to the pithy honest core, but even that has a set of rules about how to get there. I think this entire discussion that I started, was sparked by my own recognition (and being reminded of it, by the new survey) of just how inept I am at those games.

Here's a new theory: the world is made for those who know how to win at a thousand different types of social games. The game of how to get promoted, the game of how to get a hot-looking girlfriend, the game of how to break up with her while also not causing her to burn your stuff, the game of how to get elected to a major public office, the game of how to learn from the internet rather than merely complain on it, the game of ...

It's a sad view. And I'd always thought I was resisting playing games. But now I'm beginning to see, that this very resitance was exactly the thing that was preventing me from winning at them. Harrumph. Not happy.