I often see ads with statements such as: "I enjoy meeting distinguished gentlemen (35 or older please)..."

Luckily I'm just barely in her preferred range, although one time I saw an ad that stated "45 or older". Guess it'll be another 10 years before I can see her.

Why would a provider limit her potential customers in this manner? What is it about older men that they prefer?

P.S. Apologies if this topic has already been discussed many times before, but I've not seen it on the boards yet...

.....IMHO, we are probably more easily controlled by the Providers and less trouble.

    Obviously I'm speaking for myself, but do feel many would agree that our appreciation for the women is greater than the younger guys.  In comparison to our older wives or the civies we'd be able to get in our shape and at our age most Providers are on a whole different level where the younger guys naturally have more opportunities to be around the young hotties and might take them more for granted.

    I'd also like to think that we are, thru the experience of time, less selfish physically than many of the younger guys.  As discussed in an earlier thread, we certainly aren't the great lovers that the reviews (we write for ourselves) would illude too, but I'm sure generally speaking we are better and probably more fun for the women who are of the right mindset to put up with our gutts and hairy backs.

    Having lived longer, we're probably a little more interesting to talk too, as well.  Some of the sharpe Providers have learned a lot for successful clients and made some very valuable connections.

Most older men just prefer to talk. If a provider can line up ten or more of these types then she pour on the $$$ with zero wear on her body.

if a man is enjoyable, considerate, appreciative, generous, and all around nice.  

People are individuals.  
Age seems (in my experience) to have little factor in stamina or functionality - one little bit.
Or in my ability to relate to them.

Some women won't see a certain race. Where I have had very good experiences with all races...  But my rates cater to the highly educated, worldly, and/or high level professional which might make a difference in who contacts me.

I don't see the point in older verses younger.
Except maybe those ladies are specifically looking for a sugar daddy relationship or something like that.  

.....work for you?


   And, do you come to Vegas?

   I'm not the kind that can just fly you here, sorry.

do have incredibly low travel fees  for individuals.
But if you are ever in Dallas please keep me in mind.  (-:

I really appreciate the compliment on my body too.
It takes alot of work and it feel good to have it noticed.  (-:  I may go braless today in your honor!
Have a good weekend.

.....if it's you choice to go braless today.

  Occasionally, rub your breast as you think I might if I was standing behind you.  
  You can wiggle your butt around a little at the same time if it feels right.




-- Modified on 4/23/2010 11:08:14 AM

older gents, many taking viagra et al, are going to do more wear and tear than athletic young guys with iron cocks that cum in two minutes flat LOL.....

there are as many answers to this question as there are women with this preference.

i am in my late 20s, and only see men over 40. this is true both in and outside of providing. why? because i am simply more comfortable with older men, always have been. men close to my own age simply lack the maturity, general life experience, wisdom and sense of self that i NEED in a partner. are there men over 40 who lack these qualities as well? of course there are, and i wouldn't waste any time on them either. would i make an exception and see an unusually mature, settled, worldly man of 32? no, absolutely not. it just would not feel natural to me. i am attracted to men with air of authority, and to the unique relationship formed between those of different generations.

as far as older men being "easier," that is certainly a myth. because i am a submissive woman, the men i see tend to be very demanding, both physically and emotionally. they give deeply of themselves, and they expect the same from me. they have reached the critical point in their lives where they know who they are (tho some may battle with acceptance), and they know just what they want. so they do not hesitate to push and challenge me, and i welcome it.

In general, I try to see providers no more than 7 years younger or older than me. There are some exceptions for exceptionally mature younger ladies; but by and large I stick within my age group.

Partly, this is because even when I was in my twenties; I mostly found more mature ladies more attractive. Sometimes this isn't a function of age, but often it is.

So I don't do the whole 22-year-old-hottie thing.

What follows is NOT a reflection of conditions in my own current marriage; but a compilation of data from my own first marriage plus the experiences of several men who cheated on their wives who have spoken with me at great length about their motivations over the years. (At one time I was clergy; though I am no longer such.)

I do not believe all appreciation for the providers is a function of age and the man's inferior sex appeal per se. Rather, it is a function of experience.

Most married men, I believe, if they had a better homelife, would not cheat. Obviously, some would no matter what. But most wouldn't. Most men find self-value in adhering to promises, meeting responsibilities, etc.

But there is an absolute epidemic out there of wives failing to provide for the most basic of a husband's needs: appreciation, acceptance, approval and physically demonstrable affection. Men are nagged endlessly, treated as accessories and disposable gateways to a lifestyle, disrespected and talked down to, (even in public) etc.

Their wives try to force husbands to be more feminine; turn them into girlfriends and shrinks, and then stop finding them attractive when they comply. The list is endless. (Not all marriages are like this. I'm talking about those of a large proportion of men who end up cheating.)

It is not at all unusual for wives to treat their pets or total strangers with higher regard than the husbands who provide for them. These men are exposed to endless emotional and psychological ABUSE day-in and day-out. They take it out of misplaced loyalty, for the sake of kids (who really shouldn't grow up learning that men should be treated that way), because their wives have destroyed their self-esteem, a biased legal system, etc.

Your average woman wouldn't take even a tenth of the abuse that men do these days.

When their self-centered, self-important and scandalously selfish wives concede to sex; it is often taken care of with about as much ardour as taking a shit.

The double standards in the home are breathtaking; and the manipulation is endless. If he doesn't let her go spend a day at the spa with the girls, he is being "controlling;" but if he wants to go spend Saturday down at the golf course, "he doesn't love her."

These men are absolutely STARVED for acceptance, basic respectful treatment, physically demonstrated affection and to just plain be treated fairly like normally-valued HUMAN BEINGS. They want an outlet where they can express their primal manhood without being treated as though they are an icky pariah barely deserving of drawing breath.

A provider, albeit for a fee, treats her client with normal human respect and dignity; accepts him as he is, gives him tacit approval to be a man in an environment free from "gotchas" and makes love to him enthusiastically. Like she means it. (Even if she doesn't. The man will suspend disbelief. Though -- maybe I am a bit naive -- I really DO think some providers really mean it. How they manage it, I don't know.)

Of COURSE he is appreciative. He is as appreciative as a starving man placed in front of a plate of spaghetti.

But it isn't just the sex that makes them appreciative. It is the ATTITUDE. Giving a man a great buildup and hellatious orgasm does not take more than an hour. The reason men book providers for more than an hour is because they need more than the orgasm from her.

And, yes, men ARE easily controlled. Men WANT to please the women in their lives. If they are given acceptance, approval and appreciation coupled with physically demonstrable affection -- they will conquer continents for the woman who does it. And more often than not, they'll remain faithful too.

And when the woman giving the acceptance and physical affection happens to be a provider; depending on just how starved the guy is; she DOES gain a certain level of power. Power that the man's wife surrendered through abusing it. BUT, if she is ethical, that power is not abused; because she already knows what the wife did wrong.

(One reason I think some providers could make really fantastic wives. They get it. They see the results of all the other women's mistakes.)

So I think an older guy's appreciation for a provider is NOT always a function of the man being unable to get laid by a hottie. MANY hobbyists could do so readily; and seek providers for discretion and to avoid complications in meeting basic human needs.

In fact, I would say a lot of men are a lot more attractive than they think they are. It's just that their sexual self-esteem is in the TANK.

(That's an interesting way to assure fidelity. Make sure your husband feels so damned unattractive that anytime a pretty girl makes a pass at him he believes she's picking on him and couldn't possibly be sincere. Sometimes this technique backfires though.)

So I believe that a major reason why guys with experience appreciate providers so much is because of the way providers TREAT them.

They can relate to me and I also understand THEIR needs and desires. And we all know that Mature Gentlemen do have certain needs or issues that require patience, knowledge and expertise.

I was just thinking about this last night. lately..most of my clients have been in their 60's!! Enjoying life to the fullest, just like I am.
We can relate  

.....our thoughts.  

    However, I didn't have the time this morning to address the question in nearly as expanded a version as you have, nor do I have any professional counceling experience.

I'm in my early thirties, and although I like older women I feel a little awkward seeing providers that are older than me. My first hobby experience was with a provider that was 8-10 years older than me, and although I really enjoyed it I couldn't help but wonder if she'd be more comfortable with someone older.

I also wonder if some providers feel that it is easier to keep some emotional distance (for lack of a better term) if the client is older.

One provider said that the reason she only wanted to see clients over a certain age was to make sure that there wasn't any overlap between her clients and the people she might run into in her social circles as a civilian.

"That's an interesting way to assure fidelity. Make sure your husband feels so damned unattractive that anytime a pretty girl makes a pass at him he believes she's picking on him and couldn't possibly be sincere. Sometimes this technique backfires though."

I've observed that many (if not most) courtship games from both genders are designed to break down the self esteem of one's intended, or otherwise make them more pliable and easily controlled. I'm sure we all know the trick saying you'll call your date "tomorrow" and then waiting at least three days before actually making the call. By the time the guy makes that call, the girl in question has so analyzed every possible thing that could be wrong with her or how she conducted the date, that she's overly relieved to hear his voice and experience that feeling of acceptance after browbeating herself for 48 hours straight.

This sort of "hot/cold" approach to dating is common among men, and I think for many it is not easy to give up even when seeing a professional companion. I personally had a very low tolerance for these sorts of mentally and emotionally destructive games when I chose to date, and that low tolerance decreased even further when I crossed over into being a professional companion.

The type of man JohnGalt describes, however, is far less likely to play those games. I'm not sure if it is because older men understand firsthand the destructiveness of those sorts of games, and/or being generally under appreciated, or because they have reached an age where, along with a sense of their mortality, they've come to understand the rarity and value of a truly special connection. (I think it is impossible to truly appreciate the world and people around you while you are still under the notion that you will live forever.)

I suppose to sum up what I am trying to say here is that many ladies appreciate older men for exactly the same reasons older men appreciate these professional ladies. Both parties are capable of genuinely and enthusiastically enjoying the other without the need to protect the ego by hiding behind games of ennui and aloofness.

While I'm not going to limit myself solely to older men since I'm just starting out, I've actually always been attracted to significantly older men. My last relationship (3 yr) was with someone 16 years older. The last date I went on was with someone 23 years older. And by date, I mean a real civvie date.

I'm 24; I seldom have things to talk about with men my age. I'm reading Mother Jones and going to wine tastings while they want to go to some club. I have a semi-professional job and most men my age are floundering to even move out. Any attraction wanes quickly. There's something terribly attractive about older successful men.

Oh, and no kidding, older men are just plain better in bed. Seriously. Maybe they have a longer refraction period, but they often know what they are doing and are far more creative. I'll take a man twenty years older with a receding hairline and pudge around the waist over a young stud any day.

-Zaftig Zoe

May I beg to f&^%$% disagree??

Less trouble yes.





OSP'S post-operative alias

I was actively dating up until 8 years ago; so the games you describe are fresh in my mind.

And the results of those games.

I dated a lot. Sort of my own version of speed-dating. (Men who aren't afraid to ask DO get dates.)

I was very up-front about things, and never let a lady dangle. If I wanted to see her again -- I told her. If I didn't -- I told her. I NEVER did the "dump through non communication" thing; which I consider cruel.

But I could see the damage -- the cynicism -- from their past encounters.

I owned a couple of companies at the time and was pretty busy. So I would tell the girl after a date on Tuesday "I'm going to be tied up between now and then but WILL call you on Friday."

You could almost see the wheels turning -- the doubt. I could practically hear their thoughts in my head: "He's just saying that. I'm not going to get my hopes up. He doesn't really like me."

Their self-confidence had been damaged by the 20 previous guys who had never called or had deliberately, as you describe, waited longer just to jerk her chain and play power games.

And that damage to their self-confidence seriously undermined their ability to take me at face value. They had to protect themselves "just in case."

So I'd call on Friday. Sometimes, with the ladies who had not been hurt or had been able to overcome it; it would work well. She'd pick up the phone and we'd schedule a date for Saturday.

But sometimes, there was this game. Not out of malice on their part, but out of fear. They wouldn't answer. I wouldn't hear back from them until a day or two later. The idea being to convince me that they were otherwise engaged so I would see their value. But I ALREADY saw their value, otherwise I wouldn't have been calling.

It was a protection mechanism on their part that I had to spend valuable time overcoming by being consistent, reliable and as easily read as possible. Sometimes, overcoming the entrenched protection mechanisms wasn't possible.

Sometimes these games would stretch out and they wouldn't call me back for a week. Same idea -- make sure I know they are valuable and busy and all. Put me in my place. Make sure I understand I'm not THAT important.

It's actually a form of cynicism -- diminishing the value or importance of a desired object. It's also a defense mechanism.

Trouble is, these defensive behaviors are interpreted at a physical level as rejection. Not every guy is going to sit around making excuses for what would otherwise be crass misbehavior.

And some guys will simply feel hurt. And that hurt will lead to their own defensive behaviors that become manipulations and rejections of other women. And on and on it goes.

I feel I am blessed to be able to deal with very genuine women within the hobby.

As you note; because of the nature of the situation; the man and woman can leave their egos and fears behind and -- for a time -- to coin a common phrase I think few really understand, "love like you've never been hurt."

Interesting points you have John. I can only imagine what would ensue if I had posted something similar about men. I would have been branded a man hater and an angry bitch among other colorful words.

Maybe the reason, other than money, why some women provide is that they are sick of the bullshit they have to deal with while dating and even married. Plus we get the added bonus of cash.

Now I know why I give the board what is wanted from a woman...the illusion starts on here and leads to the bedroom. I have tried to tell my truth and it was not received well at all. Sad really that I have to say what is expected but not what is my truth...even in this anonymous venue...oh well, at least I still have my principals and act accordingly in real life.

a provider like a lady. If the guy is single, he appreciates the attention and affection of the lady more.

You would not have heard such from me.

I have dealt -- have I ever dealt -- with the psychological damage women suffer at the hands of men. I deal with it every day of my life.

The fact is, evil exists. It breeds a cycle of deception. An arms race, if you will; in which people who were not originally inclined to do evil feel compelled to adopt its trappings as defense.

It is the job of people of goodwill to BREAK the cycle of cynicism through their own good deeds.

You will note, if you read that post carefully; that I have VERY carefully delineated that I was not talking about "women" or "wives." Rather, that I was talking about a SUBSET.

If you were to post something similar and carefully delineated that you were talking about a SUBSET of men; you would catch no guff from me because likely, given that qualification, what you had to say would be TRUE.

I have grown children and seeing anyone in their age wierds  me out..lol

Don’t even try to tell them the truth. It's not worth your time or effort. They don't want to hear it. They want to hear that we all love sex. That sex after the 100th because routine and you become desensitized. Instead we are supposed to post that we always love sex. Suck on my pussy all day long, I love it. They want to hear that we are hear for relationships or some of that other mangina crap, like we have such genuine relationships with each and every one of them. They don't realize that they are one of 100 men. Whether it's in a course of a year or two, providers in general have been with many men. They want to think they are special, and if you fail to portray this image, you must be one of those other providers. They don't realize this is actually work for us. We spend time marketing ourselves, we put on a smile just for them, we act as if they are the best ever, because we are at work and this pays the bills. But they will never want to hear it. That's why many providers choose not to play the game. So instead of telling the truth and saying they've had some hideous clients (see thread below), the only ones who will post are providers who say that looks don't matter. Marketing. And on that thread below is mostly men saying providers don't usually care what they think. Their ATFs told them in person they have orgasms with them and that they are great. Duh. They are supposed to. Their ATF spends off-the-clock time with them. Duh. Client maintenance. But this is not the venue to share those truths. This is not the place, so don't waste your time. Either play the game and say how much you love sucking dick and genuine relationships with the 300th guy you've been fucking for the past 6 months or just move on. It's not worth it. They will always think you're a man hater whatever you say if it is not to say what they want to hear.

And this isn’t to say anything is wrong with the men here. On the contrary. If I were paying for sex and companionship, you’re damn right I want my ATF to say there is something about me that is different than the others. I would hope she would say I make her cum like no other. It’s my money and I want the fantasy, is how I feel.

THEY DON’T WANT THE TRUTH!

I will accept that; as LG's survey revealed that the average provider has seen over 860 clients; and that since a person's sympathy group is limited to no more than 15 people genetically; it stands to reason that it is IMPOSSIBLE for providers and hobbyists to form substantive bonds on a regular basis. It just can't happen.

However, that doesn't mean that true regard and kindness between people cannot exist. It can and it does.

"However, that doesn't mean that true regard and kindness between people cannot exist. It can and it does."

Yes that can happen. And it happens all of the time. Just as long as everyone knows this isnt the movie pretty woman than we're all good.

And That's a truth that can be shared on this board. All others not really. Not worth it literbike. Move on or just market yourself. Its better that way.

this is a rather anonymous online community for those who wish it to be so. i do not understand why literbike or anyone else would feel the need to censor or falsely represent themselves in such a setting.

personally, i DO share my truth here, and feel very comfortable doing so...but then i am not trying to "market" myself, and my interest in TER does not go beyond some interesting discussion. more often than not, i am well aware that whatever i feel or think on a particular issue will not be welcomed by the majority of the men who use this site (in fact i have bluntly stated my dislike for "hobbyists" period), nor even the majority of providers. but, so what? my thoughts and opinions are just as valuable as those of anyone else. furthermore, i find it imperative for those of us who do have an unpopular, unusual, outside-the-mainstream viewpoint to SPEAK UP, be heard (or at least read).

a bit of enlightenment never hurt anyone.

and this is a bit of enlightenment for you: you do not speak for all providers. my clients are indeed special to me. if after the first visit i do not feel that chemistry, that genuine human connection, then they cease to be clients. providing is also not "work" for me. i am not emotionally capable of doing that kind of "work." this hobby is many things for me...a passion, a spiritual calling, a naughty perversion...but no, never "work." at the same time, i do not fake anything for the men i see...acting is not my forte, and would be counter-productive to my goals in all this anyway. i am honest about what i like and dislike, what i sincerely feel and think, etc. i am passionately eager to please every man i see, but highly selective about the men i choose to see in the first place, and make zero apologies for that.

bottom line: no one should fear being honest and true to themselves, and most ESPECIALLY so when you feel such truth and honesty may not be welcomed.

I prefer providers that don't go overboard on the GFE. I know it's an act, and I don't need it. I don't want it. My best sessions have been with providers who dispense with the BS and just try to be themselves. They can talk about what they do and the realities of it and I'm not going to run home crying because they shattered my illusions.

I don't want fake orgasms, I don't want to be told how hot I am. I don't want a girlfriend, I just want to have some fun. As long as the service is good and she's friendly, that's all I need. The acting is just a distraction and a real turnoff, but I'm guessing I'm probably in the minority here.

No two people capable of independent thought will ever agree on everything.

But I don't have to agree with you to respect you.

And respect you I do.

You always make a point to mention how different you are than other providers (whether you personally know this or not). So it shouldn't matter to you really what I've posted above. Just keep being you - different. And since you are different and here not to "work" but to experience some fantasy that you don't get at home, and then don't worry what I say. Most providers aren't like you. Please. this is not the place to get our rocks off. This is work. Apparently, you have found this a place to replace something you are missing in real life. No problem. But what I posted then has nothing to do with you. It is obvious that literbike is a provider (unlike you) but like the rest of us who are here for more than just a fantasy or whatever it is that you say you are here for. You are the minority. No problem hun, but your experience does not apply to the majority. Good for you. For the others, trying to speak the truth to those that don't want to hear it is worthless. You've been on this board for six months or so. Some of us have been here longer. No one wants to hear it. Fortunately your truth is filled with such beautiful colors that yes we all want to hear it.

And do understand that many of us have genuine connections too. It's hard not to when you've been seeing some of the same people for well over a year. But to act is if every single meeting is a connection is such a lie for the majority of us. But for lilli, I could see this being the case. Your motivations for being involved in the hobby aren't typical, which really isn't good or bad. Your experience is just different. So feel free to experience yourself however you like. For others who feel it's pointless because this conversation has gone on and on and on...stop trying.

I teach at a university, and I see young 20 something girls look at me like a puppy dog with a big crush, smiling, giggling, flirting, secret glances and when my eye meet theirs in their secret glances, they give me that look with a sparkle in their eye.

And by the way, No, I don't date or have any  relationship with any students. I don't shit where I work. It does not matter how hot they are, and many do wear shorty shorts to my class. I do flirt with them so I will get good student evaluations ... haha .. I have power over them. It works.  

The most embarrassing moment for me was when this young hot sexy blonde blue-eyed 20 year old girl gave me a TIGHT HUG in front of everyone in my class.  She requested something and I said yes. To my surprise, she gave me a tight hug. Oh god, what a sexy body, but I didn't even touch her.

Sometimes I would help the girls with their computers and at one time one of them rub their boobs in my arms intentionally and stayed there.  One time I accidentally rubbed a boob and said sorry .. and the girls said 'it's ok' and gave me a big smile.

One of the VP in our university is probably 60 years old and he got himself a 26 year old wife.  Jezz .... OLDER MEN are attractive fellows in ways that are more than physical.  

we have more in common.

I've had a rushed life. I'm beyond my years. And I've been seeing older guys since 12. When I was 12, I saw 20 year olds, etc. So I've always been around older men. Now that I'm 26, I've found that guys my age aren’t on the same level. They just aren't mature enough. they have a lot of life to live, something I was exposed to at a young age and not a choice of my own. So you adapt. You spend time with people who you can relate.
And it has nothing to do with it being easier to have sex with an older man because he wants more conversation. It can be harder to have sex with an older men because he still wants to fill like a stud, but he has prostate issues. Most times it takes much more time to get an older guy to come. But I'm not complaining because that's what I'm here for and I'd really spend an extra 20 minutes trying to get him to come and then having good conversation that I can relate to than a young guy that comes quick and has nothing to say.

The provider I see most often doesn't even get dressed up for our appointments. Now, she IS a genuine friend, but most assuredly NOT a girlfriend. Which is good. She has never faked an orgasm, or given me sweet nothings. She sometimes answers her phone during sessions and occasionally, if the session is long, takes a smoke break.

She does, however, lay the crap out of me until my eyes are crossed. And, because we are genuine friends, I know the nitty gritty of her real life. It doesn't send me away screaming either.

On the other hand, the only provider I told straight out at the end of a session I would not be seeing her again told me I had given her dozens of orgasms. Uh huh. It wasn't because she had lied; but rather because she had misread me as someone needing gratuitous ego stroking; and had further misread me as being dumber than a box of rocks.

But, in all seriousness, even with the ladies who dress up and stuff; I think their interactions have been genuine. Not genuine as a girlfriend; but genuine within the context of the behaviors.

i AM different from other providers. you are different from other providers. no two human beings walk precisely the same path, or share the precise same perspectives, emotional experiences, hopes, dreams, ambitions, motivations, inspirations, etc.
and with this being the case, you are no more entitled to speak for every provider than i am.

also generalizations within any context just really really irk me. "men want X," "providers do this for X," etc.

you also have more than a few misconceptions about me.

1. there is nothing "missing" in my life, this hobby does not fill some void for me. i am very fortunate to have reached a place of contentment and peace in my life, and to have found The Great Love of my life. He also happens to be, in my biased opinion, The Sexiest Man Alive.

what this hobby allows me is the valuable opportunity to SERVE those men who are in need of the qualities i have to offer...and to do so in a way with comfortable, well-established boundaries. and absolutely, i find the general concept rather hot....so sue me.

2. i have been a member of this site and posting on this board for something like 3 years now...not forever, but certainly not a newbie. and it is with all that time reading and posting here that i fully understand many of my opinions and viewpoints will not be popular. again, so what? it is only a message board, and there is no harm in truth.

you clearly don't care for the things i have to say...join the club, lol. i have no desire to be provocative, and in fact am one of those dreamy idealists who greatly wish to be liked by all. crazy, huh? but...i am not willing to wear a facade in order to accomplish that.

i in turn have respect for you, for your character (as i perceive it), your intelligence, and your diplomacy. that last is a skill i've always lacked.

Great sex. I don't know why but in my hobbying and non hobbying experiences, I have had magnificent sex with older men. I have had great times with younger ones as well but since I it is mostly "older" guys who contact me, then that's what my experiences have been. I don't know anyone as long as they are mature (in nature) and do not try to make me uncomfortable in any way or are rough or mean. I want to have great sex with everyone! LOL!

johngaltnh,  You make a very good analysis.  I agree--most (not all) men would stay home if their wife provided what the man needs.  The thing I've heard the most--providers do what the mens' wives won't--which is mostly interpreted as blowjobs.  That is probably quite true.  However, the approval factor is probably even more important, and by approval I mean in all facets.    

Men's emotional needs are often tied up in sex, at least mine are, and if the woman can't rouse herself to give fill that need, then the strength of the combined biological and emotional imperative is going to cause him to leave--physically, virtually (by seeing others on the outside), or emotionally.  

I have often wondered what providers think of the women associated with the men they see. I"d like to see a provider's prescription on what women need to do to keep their men at home and seeing only them.