as you may know I am the provider who is hooked on the "economic crisis" yet, have we hit our  bottom yet/? two days wallstreet gets knocked down? when do we say recession or are we maybe going to bounceback?? how many companies do we need ti bailout? the car companies? the banks? help? imm soo lost in this translation? fannie/mae/mac allowing foreclosures to cease during holidays how kind!! giving people to get into more debt?? please understand im watching this and still just not knowing my ways to be intelligent in saving for my daughter
please b kind and if i sound stupid bare with me /what i do is not on wallstreet/its with wall street lol
lovely lorena

On MSN money Jim Jubak has an interesting article that might be helpful. He seems to take the time to explain the options a lil better than most.

Hoss1215

to bring down the likes of Bear Stearns, Lehman, and a slew of other companies from Wall St. to Main St.

There is nobody who knows how this will run its course, but eventually it will, and hopefully things will return to a middle ground sooner than later.

Don't feel dumb at all.

We are in a boat which has a significant leak....no radio or communications.....and there are only about 10% of the lifeboats needed!!

But back on topic....speaking of hitting bottoms...I would love to hit yours Lorena!!!

-- Modified on 11/21/2008 1:28:44 PM

Can we keep this board on topic, and not PC? Thanks!

median income of a US household is about $50K with the mean being about $60K per annum.  Simply put, they cannot afford a modest house of $120000 and a car that is worth $20,000, unless they put down more than 20%.  Loans were made for both housing and autos that exceeded the ability of most households to repay the debt.  

but loan officers did the deeds....

as to a car worth $20,000.... Detroit KNOWS the situation... and has for a long time.  Why else are they offering to finance with O% down and 0% annual interest rate of a car loan... cause they cannot give the car away - but they do give the money away...

This is not a stupid question... it is seious - and what I find horrible, is that schools do not teach basic "walking around skills" - wish more folks would ask... including members of congress.

as to bounce back... the DJI closed today at a little over 8K.... there are those who predict it will go to around 5K and bottom out... that will mean that my personal worth will decrease by about 50% or so...

which is why I'm gonna storm Ben Dover's fortress - if I could ever find it... wanna come?

Dear Lorean, this is perhaps the most intelligent question you could ask, cause it raises the questions - so how do we get otta this... and the other question - who is responsible for the immoral, and reckless behavior of government, corporations and organizations such as universities who should have seen this coming...  who?  sadly - it is probably you and me, for our failure to hold those accountable for immoral and reckless actions.... last election - I voted for noone who held office previously - including both mccain and obama.... they are all guilty - but so am i.

and you will probably suffer some ungodly demise... but then again - perhaps you are 'she whose name we shant metiong?'

those wonderful days of yesteryear when "SHE" would write a post - and thrill my heart... wonderful...

Seriously - this is a question - and the answers for the gents may influence how much $$ they would spend on this hobby... and for the ladies - the price they would place upon their time.  

Questions for all, at what point do you reassess your participation in the hobby - based upon the current finanancial climant - and have you noticed any change in activity (up or down)?

I did not get out of the market in time.  Hence, I'm largely out of this market now, except for window shopping and an occasional sale.

BP - you asked providers & hobbyists how this fin'l climate is impacting their activity. As a business owner concerned with supply & demand of my own product, I think you've asked a great question.

For me, I'm fortunate that my biz hasn't been impacted, so the buyers' market has been great. I typically pay more than asking, so I feel good about paying $350 when asking is $300, knowing that she was $400 a few months ago. I save a few $$, and am being fairly generous in the current climate.

short term profits (and not that good a profit I might add) were the excuse for not thinking about the long term picture.  Example?  outsourcing... seemed a great idea - however, when the language barrier became too great a problem... well, lets just say, it now leads to the permanant loss of jobs.... for those companies who initiated it..  they can't afford to buy back into a more reasonable job placement...

As to the move to manufacture... anyone recall the pet food issue with animal treats imported from china... and we told ourselves this was just a glitch... only to find that toys manufactured there contained lead in the paint on the toys... hummmm.... those bill clinton campaign donation dollars bought something...wonder what.

yea, Known my share of Harvard MBA's - one even pretended to date me.... all the while she was selling my job out from under me... and never told me.  they are truly WONDERFUL peeps.  Fortunately, I landed on my feet, but it was only due to a truly sweet lady who asked a simple question - what you gonna do?

First of Fredie and Fannie are quasi Government orgnaizations that is all their debt is backed the Federal Government and was originally set up to increase home ownership in America.

Rest of them traded on derivatives and a Credit Backed Securities. Credit backed securities in laymen's term is packaging the debt and making a product and selling it to investors. As risk mitigation, they also insured these investment product. AIG was one of the largest insurers of the Credit Backed Derivatives and we all know what happened to them. In other cases, large investment brokers like Shearson Lehman, insured there own products. When these credit backed products went south, they didn't have the insurance money to pay because their reserve to risk ratio was very low.

In most cases, those who sold the product didn't actually know how much risk they were taking because the Math behind all of it or the so called model was developed by Physics and Math Phd's. Really mind blowing math that ordinary person with reasonably good education will find hard to figure out.

How long it would take to come out of it. No one really knows because the fundamental foundation is shaken. Deregulation. lack of regulatory oversight and lack disclosure all helped to hide this mess for long time until the free market economics caught up with it.

Federal government will have to pump billions to create jobs if they do it soon it will be shorter duration if not it will take an awful long time. Even though there are many people running around yelling don't bailout Automobile Companies, the choices from an economic perspective is very limited. If not bailed out, it will put approximately 5 million people out of work resulting negative GDP.

Over the years, Federal government allowed these companies to buy others and get enormous thus controlling significant share of the economy not just automobile companies but banks and other financial institutions. There should be limits on what % of any given industry any one company can control and there should be stricter regulations and oversight in the future.





-- Modified on 11/21/2008 3:21:01 PM

that determine the outcomes.

in 1960 just about any person with a job could by a home.

since 1960 the ratio between worker pay and CEO pay has grown exponentially

our economy no longer depends on production or market share - The lessons of W Edwards Deming, who managed our WWII wartime military industrial production and built transformed Japan into an economic superpower out of the ashes of WWII are long forgotten -  but on showing a good quarterly report

and _ most of all_ our "economy" depends on   Consumer Spending ie decreasing capitalization, savings and increasing debt. Consumers spending money they cannot afford to by things the profit from which goes to make the very few richer.

When I look around, the America I used to know seems to me to have disappeared.

-- Modified on 11/21/2008 3:24:08 PM

Dude, simple fact, folks were told that they could afford that which they could not. plain and simple - they were lied to and they WANTED to believe the lie.

as to bail out... how else are you gonna get rid of crippling union contracts, how else are you gonna get rid of excutives whose salaries and perques are nowhere near matching their contributions?  Bankrupt - restructure and reorder priorities... though yes, but it sure beats the heck outta an even BIGGER disaster down the road.

Personal responsibility when ya fuck up.
Saving for a rainy day.
Neutral and unbiased news reporting.
Respect for police, fire department and teachers.
Some sense of discipline in schools, including codes for dress and personal hygeine.
Respect for elders.
Respect for the President - and the office of the President (by both the public, and the president)
Respect for the right to worship - and having your faith not ridiculed.
Respect for the laws of the land.
A sense of humor - as to who we are.

Course, we've also lost
Jim Crow laws.
Segregation.
Quiet nods to sexual abuse.
Quiet nods to spousal abuse.
I'm sure there are others.... but dammit... the lack of personal responsibility remains at the top of my list.

Calling John Galt.  Wesley Mouch and Mr. Thompson are clueless.

are at the root of most of it.

Personal responsibility can only be learned when one is held accountable - this knowledge is not inborn, but must be taught and demonstrated by parents and teachers, cultural expectations, rules, laws, discipline and manners.

But the prevailing "wisdom" today is that children are born perfect and unspoiled, that discipline and structure are damaging to their self esteem. Add to that that for some time parents have substituted money and activities for a structured family life and personal involvement.

Of course this is because we have generations of parents who have not learned personal responsibility raising children to be the same way.

In my book self esteem is *earned* when you make the effort to meet the standards that are set for you by authority figures, role models, etc.

The bit about delaying gratification - being mindful of the future - is a form of the self discipline that again must be learned.

In the midst of this value-less society people of a class who used to consider themselves responsible caretakers of the future of America now consider that it is reasonable to make themselves rich at the expense of what is good for America. It is a return to the robber-baron-ism of the 1880s and 1890s.

The whole deal is going to hell in a handbasket as far as I can see.

Manipulating the money supply is not going to fix this.  Bailing out businesses is not going to fix this. Creating a new deal type works projects administration is not going to fix this.

Only a national awareness to return to the values of the Greatest Generation - with the notable exceptions that you mentioned - is going to fix this - and the repairs will be long and slow in coming.....

Well - an older gent should be entitled to rave once in a while...

/providers and hoThis is a general discussion... I love ter because freedom of discussion ,opinions etc. Now maybe your looking for me to talk about coffe enemas.. Starbucks has been downsizing so mostlikely your using straight douche??/  This is a place of economics/supply and demand and if you want to have a provider that cares about"giving stimulus to hobbyists", this is why I ask and It appears others dont mind.. so if your sooo0 offended move on .though in your case you may be stuck in the toilet..thank you to all that are giving some practical not just me yet,everyone..other providers.. who knows maybe im trying to avoid an advisor that loses my $$ due irritable bowel syndrome
\xoxox to all the kind and decent resprctful providers amd hobbyists ..much luv from vegas

No one knows when the bottom will happen. The bottom is a process that takes a while to unwind. Keep in mind every recession since the 1960's we did have recovery in the stock market until we had 3 months of increasing of housing starts.

Best for you to pick a index fund and dollar cost average for the long run.

I agree with these important points that you've made, as well as Bizzaro's points. However, one point is very important, yet hard to realize these days: saving for a rainy day. It's becoming increasingly harder to save for a rainy day when your mortgage, car payment, utilities (they're pitiful), gas prices and groceries are at an all-time high. Plus, if you are single and let's say you lose your job. Then what? All of your savings are down the toilet in little time. Granted, most of us try to establish 40lKs, stocks and/or bonds that hopefully yield high interest. Our economy forces hardships, and getting ahead seems like a milestone these days (unless -- of course -- you make over a million a year and live in a studio apartment). But, God forbid all of your money is in the stock market!


Hugs,
Ciara

-- Modified on 11/21/2008 7:02:11 PM

I certainly understand that it is hard to act on the value of saving for the future in certain economic circumstances, and would never "blame" someone because they did not have the opportunity to do so.

The reason that many who would choose to save for their future cannot is because the majority do not, and by their spending habits, raise the costs for everyone. More dollars that should be going into savings / capitalization wind up chasing goods and services, and raise the prices for us all. And easy credit serves the same purpose ultimately.

I hope nobody out there put *all* of their money in stocks. Diversification is king. I "lost", well, a great deal, in stocks but I'm walking and talking because I did not have the money and resources that I needed to live on or for my future at risk. And I say "lost" in quotes because the value of a stock is established at the time of sale. Everyone who plays the game needs to understand that basic rule. If you don't want to take the loss, don't sell. And also not put retirement money at risk when you are within a few years of retirement.....

Hugs yourself, darlin'

Gregory

who is John Galt ? - xo Lisa - eom

-- Modified on 11/21/2008 7:59:01 PM

below

-- Modified on 11/21/2008 8:26:19 PM

And I agree with you. I'm just stating a fact that many people don't have the advantage of making enough money to put away. Those who do should save. I agree with you. I wish I were in the position to help out a lot of my friends and family. However, if you are single and handling a mortgage by yourself, plus walking around with disabilities, it can hinder a person. But, let's not get into that. I totally get what you're saying. But, just keep an open mind and remember: not everyone had opportunities to do something better and become upper middle class.  Should they buy everything on credit? Of course not, and that is not what my post was about.

I have some investments, but my post was intended to be objective, and I was speaking for others who could not afford an education, perhaps couldn't get into the military for health reasons so they could get a college education, are from the slums and trying to get out, etc.  I think people are capable of accomplishing many things -- and I for one have -- but those with health problems and cannot afford to change their lives, it is a problem. There are many circumstances where people were not fortunate enough or -- as you imply -- worked hard enough to save some for the future. I agree with all the credit cases, and I wasn't speaking for those people. I just like to look at different sides of the post, and I've seen both. But good post, Gregory!  

Hugs,
Ciara









-- Modified on 11/22/2008 11:09:19 AM