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JLWest 107 reads
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inquiring.mind1438 reads

The new TER paradigm is not getting favorable press. Most everyone has found something to hate. I don't like it.

When TER first put up the Beta version, no one liked it. Most everyone found something to hate.

So why did they go ahead and do it? Is it because, as some have speculated, TER is intent on driving everyone away by being unresponsive and arbitrary? Let's see. TER is not a government. It's not a charity. It's not even a monopoly. It's a profit making enterprise in competition with numerous other vendors of this same service. I really doubt they were TRYING to drive everyone away. So why?

I have a theory. TER is, from a technology standpoint, a giant database program. Provider reviews are data. Discussion board posts are data. PMs are data. Whitelists and member handles and passwords are data. TER lets you access and manipulate all this data in various ways that make it helpful and convenient for the purposes of providing and mongering. And over the past few years the sheer volume of data in the system has grown like topsy!

Engine builders say “Horsepower = money. How fast do you want to go?” Same holds true for databases. Capacity = money. How much data do you want to handle? When a business starts up, you take a look at the amount of data you currently need to wrangle, try to predict how much the data will increase in the foreseeable future, and then you pay enough for that much growth and no more. You do NOT pay two, five, ten, or one hundred times as much to purchase capacity you aren't sure you'll ever need.

When TER started many years ago could anyone have confidently predicted it would still be around today, and would have grown to its current size? Of course not! The legal decisions insulating ISPs from liability for the information they house hadn't been written. TER could have become an illegal enterprise if those decisions had gone the other way. It would have been foolish to start out with a system capable of handling the current monster database given those uncertainties.

As many successful industries have learned though, when you underestimate and your data grows beyond what you prepared for, your database becomes overburdened. You start getting system outages and inexplicable error messages. Eventually, if you do nothing, the system becomes unreliable and unusable. Has anyone noticed the system outages and inexplicable error messages TER has been generating over the past year and more? I have.

Anyone who has ever watched, or been forced to deal with, the process of scaling up large databases into larger databases knows it is not easy. It takes a loooong time. It is very expensive. My blue sky guess is that TER started looking for a new system some time in early 2008. Possibly much earlier. They probably committed to a specific system not less than a year ago. By the time the Beta first appeared they were already at least six months into the conversion at a cost of certainly six figures, quite possibly seven, in US dollars. I'm sure they were saddened by the reception the Beta received, but there is no way in hell they were going to walk away from the time, money and effort already invested in developing the “new” TER. It was and is a done deal.

So by all means, bitch about the things you find undesirable in the new system and moan about the wonderful system we no longer have. I have taken great pleasure in drafting five lengthy posts castigating TER for their hideous mistake. The drafting was enough for me, I didn't post them, but I've enjoyed reading the posts that have gone up.

And then, when your blood pressure has fallen and the red mist no longer blurs your vision, join me in helping TER to craft a silk purse out of the sow's ear we have been handed. If we can get any sort of meaningful consensus about the five things most in need of fixing, I'll bet TER will take a hard look at fixing them. If we can just narrow things down to the twenty or thirty most troublesome issues, TER can put up a poll and let people vote to obtain that consensus.

So pick the ONE thing that most irks you and needs to be fixed, describe the problem, and state what the fix should be. I'll start.

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inquiring.mind179 reads

That is how things were done before. Threads remained in the same order no matter how large or small they became. If you were interested in a particular thread but could not browse TER for a few days for some reason, you could find the thread easily just by looking for thread titles you remember surrounding it.

As the new system currently stands, with threads sorted by the most recent reply to each thread, it appears someone could rejuvenate a months-old thread and bring it to the top of page one, just by posting a new reply. Someone could “wage war” on a particular thread by submitting replies to many other threads and driving it off of the first page. A provider could keep her ad at the top of page one by posting additional photos, or having a friend post a response. These all may seem like childish activities but c'mon guys, it's the Internet. Childish behavior reigns.

I've seen it suggested that TER has some sort of algorithm that will control which threads descend at which speed. Yeah! That's all we need! An unexplained and unpredictable power that makes it impossible to even guess where to start looking for the thread that interests you. That'll make people happy. I don't think!

The ideal solution is to give us the option of sorting either by original post or by most recent reply just by clicking on a button. Make this one change and you cut my dissatisfaction at least in half. It must be possible to do this. Sorting data is what databases are for.

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inquiring.mind114 reads

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MrSelfDestruct77 reads

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JLWest108 reads

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inquiring.dirty.mind156 reads

As much as I want to follow the herd I just can't.
Aside from the bumping threads and view all function I would like to see the fonts a little larger or maybe a little more bold.

The beta site will take some getting used to which I am not too keen on but like you said TER has too much invested in the new site to back out now. We had better get used to it.

I am willing to not make a rush to judgment without first interfacing on the new site for a while.
(I say this as I am viewing from the old site, lol)

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inquiring.dirty.mind137 reads

And replace it with the Stars and Stripes.

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impposter110 reads

Posted By: inquiring.dirty.mind
I am willing to not make a rush to judgment without first interfacing on the new site for a while. (I say this as I am viewing from the old site, lol)
Yeah, right. Some of us (many of us?) CAN NOT INTERFACE with the new site because they have added too many unnecessary bells and whistles that are incompatible with some means of access. Such interfacing produces NOTHING which produces frustration which leads to another kind of frustration :-) .

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impposter110 reads

Posted By: inquiring.mind
I have a theory. TER is, from a technology standpoint, a giant database program. ...

Anyone who has ever watched, or been forced to deal with, the process of scaling up large databases into larger databases knows it is not easy. ...

So by all means, bitch about the things you find undesirable in the new system and moan about the wonderful system we no longer have. ...

So pick the ONE thing that most irks you and needs to be fixed, describe the problem, and state what the fix should be. I'll start.
I say you are way off the mark in your analysis. Most complaints that I have read are about the GUI and user experience. I can't even navigate between board pages because they've glommed up the GUI with gadgets that my software and filters CAN NOT PROCESS safely and anonymously.

I'd be quite happy with a simple command line interface (CLI) and flat file listings but that wouldn't go over well with most users. A GUI to all of the data can be simple and fast. It can be a bunch of links on a page instead of pop-ups or drop-downs. Who needs Flash for database processing?

Many are complaining about the way the boards present new topics (date sorted by REPLY, not the original post; no "view all"; etc.). Sorting output for presentation is hardly a database processing issue. There is plenty of forum software, some of it open source and free, that can sort by topic, date, etc.. and some of the forums that use have been around longer than TER and are huge. (And they can be accessed without precautions needed when accessing TER).

Let TER process the data behind the scenes however they want (as long as it's reasonably fast, we won't know what's happening). Fix the GUI to the data so we can actually access and make use of the data (posts and reviews). For now, that means back to Classic.

Even Coca-Cola manned up and dumped "New Coke" and brought back Coke Classic. It was even noted in the US Senate: "Coca-Cola executives announced the return of the original formula on July 10, less than three months after New Coke's introduction. ABC News' Peter Jennings interrupted regular programming to share the news with viewers. On the floor of the U.S. Senate, David Pryor called the reintroduction "a meaningful moment in U.S. history".

There are probably a whole bunch of newsmen and US Congressman who will be glad to praise TER OFF THE RECORD when they bring back Classic.
Related Link: Coke brings back Classic

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SinsOfTheFlesh107 reads

As long as the classic format remains viable, I'll be delighted to stick around TER, read the posts, and be an active member.

While your reasoning undoubtedly makes sense, for me its just a flat out non-starter. Above all, I have been extremely vocal about the new discussion board format. I absolutely abhor it. Visually it simply looks awful and unappealing. Too many graphics give it a cluttered and cramped look. I did note that when you click on a thread, you do get a discussion tree now that shows posts in their correct order, with replies appearing directly underneath the post they are directed to. Huge kudos to TER for making that change, because that was the chief complaint from alot of people, including myself.

But for me, if the classic view goes away, this site will still be one that I spend little or no time on anymore. Its the graphics, or rather the color scheme, that I can't tolerate. When I was 19 I was diagnosed with a form of colorblindness that makes my eyes extremely sensitive to light and dark contrasts. A light print on a dark background makes me feel like my eyeballs are being ripped out of my sockets. The new format quite simply hurts my eyes because it is just too dark. I puttered around the site for a few hours yesterday. By the time I couldn't take it anymore and closed the browser, I had a monster headache. So for me, its not just that the new format is too busy with links and graphics (it is), or the fact that it is not user friendly (its not), or easy to navigate (definitely not). The overall site is just too damned dark. It bothers my eys, and its just plain unappealing.

I pointed out the Coca Cola once made a massive blunder when they introduced New Coke. I'm sure they had invested millions of dollars in developing the new formula. But when faced with plumeting market share, they acted quickly to correct their error in judgement. Not only did they regain their place at the top of the cola market, they came out stronger than ever with the "Coke Classic" marketing campaign which proved to be a huge success. Sure, the money invested in the new cola was a bust, but long term their decision to revert to their old formula is what saved their product.

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inquiring.verbose.mind64 reads

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scoed90 reads

The biggest issue is because of all the bells and whistles useing flash it crashes my Droid's web browser which is my primary way I browse the web as I am always on the go and a laptop is just to bulky. So I can't even use the new TER. Second to see who has posted on a thread which makes it harder to browse the forum and wastes my time. Third I hate post bumping. The old TER didn't allow that which is good. Fourth the new TER is hard on the eye do to text size and background color. And fifth it takes way to long to load. Sixth it has issues on Firefox and from what I heard most other PC internet browsers besides Microsoft  Internet Explorer. If they would fix those issues especially the first one I could live with it and maybe grow to like it. And all these things are software issues and not database issues.  Until they fix these issues down with the new TER and long live classic TER. I know I chose six things but I did list them in order of importants to me. If something happens to classic TER before the first one is fixed I will let my VIP expire and quit going to the site ad it will become useless to me. I live on my Droid and any website that cannot load on it may as well not exist in my view.

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jmadden73 reads

I actually don't mind the new site that much, but not having a view all option is extremely annoying to me. It also seems like it shouldn't be that hard to change.

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LeChiffre82 reads

I've pointed out for some time now (and have been repeatedly ignored) that there's a real need for a BDSM discussion board and Massage discussion board, especially if they are going to include discussion boards for FKK Clubs and Transsexual.

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NickCharlesIII65 reads


When I open this board, I have no way to tell if or how many new posts have been made on a topic that I have read previously. So, you are making me open each thread and scroll down to find out. Unsat. And, no, just listing the last post with a date/time does not give me enough info.

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shudaknownbetter56 reads

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Riley007111 reads

Craiglist has to have 1,000 times the database of TER and the interface hasn't changed in years.

Craig Newmark is a smart guy but you can't tell me he planned way ahead of time to be one of the biggest sites on the internet.

I know database changes are painful, but some effort to keep the interface at least close to the same would have been appreciated.

Remember the average hobbyist is early 40's to late 60's. We're a grumpy bunch and are sick of learning a new phone every 18 months.

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Alissa71170 reads

I Like seeing who has posted a response so I can see who has responded, as we are a community. Takes too long to click on every post just when I am only interested in few. Taking away my Skim thru ability...which is making my TER activity less. It looks good, but looks aren't everything!

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HalfHour86 reads

If you are going to be verbose, and I sure can be, AT LEAST know what you speak of. Otherwis you are just obtuse.

Here's my bitch (one of them) You cant tell what the fuckin' smileys are. That's bullshit.

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inquiring.mind78 reads

If you believe it is a simple matter of tacking any front end you choose on to any back end and then stroll away whistling, it's you that is ignorant. When scaling up to a new database engine you buy tightly integrated back- and front-ends that are tested and proven to work together because 99% of your attention is on maintaining the integrity of the data. The last thing you want to do is create unneeded variables by trying to graft on a front-end that has not been tested with your new back-end before you are certain all data has ported correctly. If you get garbage with an untested front end you can't be sure whether it's because the data has been corrupted, or because the front end isn't working properly.

Sorry if that's too many words for you.

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HauwkEye71 reads

This is the site for buying tightly integrated back- and front-ends, isn't it!!  :)  :)

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HalfHour54 reads

I like your style!

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HalfHour80 reads

QUOTE: " YOU BUY tightly integrated back- and front-ends that are tested and proven to work together"

That sounds like a Dilbertesque upper-management explanation to convince the IT-clueless investors they know what they are doing when thay actually their sql from a hole in the ground. Those of us "WHO MAKE" know the real deal. Not trying to be offensive with either of my posts, but the stuff you are saying is not correct as it stands, in relation to the topic. Also you are making way too many assumptions about TER's migration here.

The fact that your first post was bloated and borish is a separate issue. Don't take a poll about that, because when the results are in, you might be embarrased that onlookers saw the mental-masterbation-in-your-own-mirror for what it was. However if it makes setting that aside for the meat of the discussion, I apologize for my commentary on your writing style and I won't do it again.

Let's assume we both know what we are talking about ok? If TER was ACTUALLY changing database formats, it is correct that creating a new front end is best practices, though not always manditory. Depending on the platform, how close you could replicate the original design will vary a little, if any. Depnding on skill AND INCLINATION of the developer, how close you could replicate the original design is tremendous. Most developers beg off of using other's designs. They don't like it. It requires more work. Deveopers are a lot are intristically lazy. And furthermore, they will lie through ther teeth and say it can't be done due to the platform change. --- Yes it can, you lazy fucking, codemonkey. Unless the last chimp wrote spaghetti, you can get in ther and do it. Or AT LEAST, do it your way and make it look and act like the first one -- Unfortunatly there is no glory in that. Theri only point of defense is that unless they deliver something that looks hugely different with all sorts of bells and whistles, the IT-clueless (which may be either his manager or client... OR BOTH!) it will be a hard sell to justify they bill for services that will be handed in when its all over.

I stand by the technical accuracy of my broad based statement about front end and back end separateness. But since NEITHER of us knows exactly what TER's were, then I guess this is just a contect to see who's cock id the biggest! I bet yours is. And for that, I salute you!

:) But mine goes anywhere and everywhere. LOL!

HalfHour

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czcodger70 reads

Paying a fee for the service that TER provides is a no brainer. Everyone should be fee paying to provide the site with financial resources to conduct the business of providing us with a forum for our activities.

The one aspect of the new site format that put me out was the addition of several lines of information about TVs to the search engine. Hobbyists who see TVs are perfectly ok with doing that, but a more useful addition would have been a query block on eye color.

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shudaknownbetter94 reads

barely read the jokes with all the lockups.  5 lockups in 30 minutes earlier.   It was "old" yesterday.
skb

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robsul2004110 reads

yes, there are features I'd like to see changed, but I've had no problems using it, and once you figure the new navigation scheme out, it is never more nor less user friendly than the old (and seems to be a little quicker).  Of course I use Mozilla Firefox, not IE as my browser (something all hobbyist should consider due to its better security and plug-ins that can wipe out traces of where you've been and prevent others from tracking your web browsing habits. )

Posted By: inquiring.mind
The new TER paradigm is not getting favorable press. Most everyone has found something to hate. I don't like it.

When TER first put up the Beta version, no one liked it. Most everyone found something to hate.

So why did they go ahead and do it? Is it because, as some have speculated, TER is intent on driving everyone away by being unresponsive and arbitrary? Let's see. TER is not a government. It's not a charity. It's not even a monopoly. It's a profit making enterprise in competition with numerous other vendors of this same service. I really doubt they were TRYING to drive everyone away. So why?

I have a theory. TER is, from a technology standpoint, a giant database program. Provider reviews are data. Discussion board posts are data. PMs are data. Whitelists and member handles and passwords are data. TER lets you access and manipulate all this data in various ways that make it helpful and convenient for the purposes of providing and mongering. And over the past few years the sheer volume of data in the system has grown like topsy!

Engine builders say “Horsepower = money. How fast do you want to go?” Same holds true for databases. Capacity = money. How much data do you want to handle? When a business starts up, you take a look at the amount of data you currently need to wrangle, try to predict how much the data will increase in the foreseeable future, and then you pay enough for that much growth and no more. You do NOT pay two, five, ten, or one hundred times as much to purchase capacity you aren't sure you'll ever need.

When TER started many years ago could anyone have confidently predicted it would still be around today, and would have grown to its current size? Of course not! The legal decisions insulating ISPs from liability for the information they house hadn't been written. TER could have become an illegal enterprise if those decisions had gone the other way. It would have been foolish to start out with a system capable of handling the current monster database given those uncertainties.

As many successful industries have learned though, when you underestimate and your data grows beyond what you prepared for, your database becomes overburdened. You start getting system outages and inexplicable error messages. Eventually, if you do nothing, the system becomes unreliable and unusable. Has anyone noticed the system outages and inexplicable error messages TER has been generating over the past year and more? I have.

Anyone who has ever watched, or been forced to deal with, the process of scaling up large databases into larger databases knows it is not easy. It takes a loooong time. It is very expensive. My blue sky guess is that TER started looking for a new system some time in early 2008. Possibly much earlier. They probably committed to a specific system not less than a year ago. By the time the Beta first appeared they were already at least six months into the conversion at a cost of certainly six figures, quite possibly seven, in US dollars. I'm sure they were saddened by the reception the Beta received, but there is no way in hell they were going to walk away from the time, money and effort already invested in developing the “new” TER. It was and is a done deal.

So by all means, bitch about the things you find undesirable in the new system and moan about the wonderful system we no longer have. I have taken great pleasure in drafting five lengthy posts castigating TER for their hideous mistake. The drafting was enough for me, I didn't post them, but I've enjoyed reading the posts that have gone up.

And then, when your blood pressure has fallen and the red mist no longer blurs your vision, join me in helping TER to craft a silk purse out of the sow's ear we have been handed. If we can get any sort of meaningful consensus about the five things most in need of fixing, I'll bet TER will take a hard look at fixing them. If we can just narrow things down to the twenty or thirty most troublesome issues, TER can put up a poll and let people vote to obtain that consensus.

So pick the ONE thing that most irks you and needs to be fixed, describe the problem, and state what the fix should be. I'll start.

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