There is a new sci-fi show called "Firefly" on Fox Friday nights. One of the main characters is a provider, called a "companion" on the show. Naturally, she is beautiful, intelligent and admired by all.

Will it really take 800 years for this fiction to become fact?

They were called Courtesans (and Geishas) and although I don't know the exact histories of either (I think Courtesans were most popular in the 14th century?) and Geishas for several centuries) I can safely say that in the US (Where we think we're so "free") that it's going to take a loooong looong time

Remember this country was started (well when we took it over from the Native Americans and left them starving) by the Puritans. The cold bony hand of Puritanism.... Burning witches (and prostitutes) at the stake only a few hundred years ago. It's so sad....

Don't get me wrong. I love this country but yes, I am bitter to some degree. We've got to stand up for what we believe it and not be afraid to voice it. Myself included.

I hate John Ashcroft, God I hate him.

GD

Perhaps in maybe 20 years.  It seems like it's already more mainstream and acceptable to be a stripper nowadays than it was lets say 5 years ago.

xo
morgan ashley

For this to happen, organized religions would have to change their attitudes toward sexuality, since it is their views that have provided the impetus for the views of society as a whole.

But most organized religions (not just Christianity) include the notion of asceticism, which with regard to sex basically means that by abstaining from sex, one can become closer to God.  The obvious message of asceticism is that sexual activity takes one further from God, and so sex becomes something that is regarded as evil.

IMO, we have a long way to go before we will see this change on the part of organized religions.

Let's hope not... we all need to know that we can make a difference and not to sit idle on this one and wait for someone else to do the roadwork.  They're are ways to share what we have come to know about this arena.  Just think before you speak (the third person approach is good) but do speak up when the info will fall into place in the discussion or forum you find yourself.

Sexophobia and pornophobia* in several major religions derive I think at least in part from the ancient Jews' passionate concern to differentiate their religion from all others, as starkly as possible.  In some of those other ancient near eastern religions, notably in Mesopotamia, sex and prostitution were integrally involved in ritual practice (and the temple prostitute was revered as a priestess).

As for getting as close as possible (in this life) to God, that is the function of mysticism, and at least in [R.C.] Christianity and Islam, mysticism has usually expressed itself in highly erotic terms.  One of the more graphic examples is shown below, Bernini's "St. Teresa in Ecstasy," where the angel decidedly calls to mind Eros (Cupid) himself, and the canonized fourteenth-century Italian mystic, St. Teresa of Avila, beneath her nun's habit is clearly in orgasm.  The poetry of the Persian Hafiz and other mystics often passes for simply erotic lyric.

*pornophobia:  horror [whorror?] of prostitutes and prostitution.

-- Modified on 9/21/2002 1:44:14 PM

800 or 8000 years from now our general culture could still be puritanical and dumbf**k in as many or more ways as now.

We need to understand the underlying roots of dumbf**kery and why they are so tenacious. We have the means through education, TV, and the Internet, of promoting ideas and analytical thinking.
However, these modern marvels of communication have not yet awakened any quest for intelligence and progress.

I don't recall Slicky legalizing it. Or any other
Democrat even discussing it.

These attacks on Ashcroft are so silly. It's a LOCAL
debate. Think about it - it's LEGAL in NV (except
Clark County). If Ashcroft were the big bogey man you
make him out to be he'd be leaning on the state to
outlaw it.

PS - I'm a Libertarian. So don't waste your time with
any of the usual 'right winger' nonsense. And you do
sound bitter - get over yourself.

Reon't let the door hit you in the rear end!

Ashcroft's FBI (he's their boss) spent a year staking out providers in New Orleans.  They brough federal charges against them.

It _used_ to be a local isue.  Now some localities are realizing that they could shift some $$ from vice to more important crimes, and aren't persuing them with as much vigor.

Enter the man who begins every day with a "voluntary" prayer meeting in his office at the justice department.

Clearly an erotic sculpure, and not the only example by a long shot of eroticism from Christian art from the past.

But I was referring to present day religion.  Where is the notion that sex brings you closer to God in present day Christianity as practiced by the majority of Christians in America?

Reon't let the door hit you in the rear end!

msharkm said:

I don't recall Slicky legalizing it. Or any other
Democrat even discussing it.

(end of quote)

M, Who ever said I was a democrat? I am actually a Liberatarian too --and I still hate John Ashcroft. And guess what? So do many Republicans! and democrats! Amazing? Isn't it?

And you also say (and I quote) "I'm a Libertarian. So don't waste your time with any of the usual 'right winger' nonsense. "

What usual right winger nonsense? I Think you're mixing me up with someone else or not opening that obviously clenched mind of yours and realizing that yes, even I, a fellow Liberatarian , can hate John Aschcroft.

Geesh, and I thought that *I* was bitter!

GD

Reon't let the door hit you in the rear end!

Depending on the creativity of the prosecuting attorney, it is always possible to inflate a crime from a misdemeanor to a felony, or in this case, a state crime to a federal one. I think it's been stated on other boards that the feds may link prostitution charges with interstate banking crimes. After all, escorts make bank deposits, and hobbyists do use either a credit card or ATM withdrawals to partake. This line of reasoning is really not so different than the confiscation of cars by hobbyists when caught soliciting.

I would never underestimate the imagination of the present George W. administration to go after us. As far as I can tell, the Constitution and Bill of Rights are just pieces of paper to them, to be discarded when inconvenient.

this will not be legal.

And mandatory prayer in the Pentagon does NOT lead to that seperation...

No matter what the Dem's didn't do...Ashcroft has done more damage in his time than the previous admins.


Vote with your BRAIN not with your party!

Rebecca

It is not Legal in Nevada per say. It is only in certain counties in Nevada where Brothels are legal. State law prohibits legal prostituion in counties which have a population over 250,000 (hence the big cities are out); the remaining counties may have legal brothels, at local option. Not all do. It is illegal in Clark and Reno counties. Clark County is very large. The nearest place where it is legal is Parhump..where the Chicken Ranch and Sheri's is located and that is about a 60-70 mile drive.

The biggest mistake people make comming to Nevda is the assumption it is legal all over the state. I think, and I am quoting a friend who I agree with..is that in Nevada it is just more tolerant than anything else.

As far as nation wide acceptance...there is going to be a whole lot of debate and religious and political hell to pay before that ever happens. Look at how many years it took to our society to accept something like divorce. Once thought so taboo not even 30 years ago is now pretty comman place. But it held a stigma for a couple of hundred years. You could not even mention the word divorce above a whisper.

But to actually legalize something that would in essence allow a man to be unfaithful to his wife, girlfriend ect. will take much more than a law passed by congress.

~Lass



-- Modified on 9/22/2002 2:55:59 PM

-- Modified on 9/23/2002 8:09:42 AM

You're the one who 'hates John Ashcroft'. I don't hate
anyone. Try to get along with everyone. You hate a man
you've never met or spoken to.

People should feel sorry for Ashcroft. Something terrible
happened to him in his life that makes him respond to the
female form in such a drastic way.

If you feel so strongly as to hate someone, you should be
publicly crusading for the legalization of this activity.
Please post a link to your website. Oh, thought so.

We will have to get together for a meeting of the minds....

And if the boys ask nice...maybe the bods too?


R

but the Constitution does not provide for a separation of church and state.  However, the Bill of Rights says ...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Not establishing a religion is a different than having separation of church and state -- so if the Senate wants to open with a prayer, the above amendment does not forbid such.

Even more interesting is that if an individual state wanted an official religion, I could see that happening if the people of the state wanted it.  I base assertion this on the tenth amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

-Hoot.

This may be a little off track here but probably not considering all the political discussion.  

In the the early sixties the Justice Department under Robert Kennedy was preparing to send a federal task force to Las Vegas to clean up corruption and vice.  The Las Vegas city fathers got wind of this task force and flew to Washington to have a sitdown with Robert Kennedy.  They reached an accomodation.  Kennedy agree not to send a federal task force to Las Vegas and the city fathers agreed to do several things.  Part of the bargain was that the city fathers agreed to make sure that prostitution was not made legal in Clark County.

Politics does make strange bedfellows.  Imagine the Kennedys who counted conquests of women like old time gunfighters putting notches on their guns being instrumental in making sure that prostitution was never legal in Clark County.

Boy you're grumpy... I think you need to pay a visit to your favorite ASP vs. debating politics!

However I will say that Ashcroft is NOT a good thing for this country. As for his statement about our roots and how this country was founded, it is IMPORTANT to understand our history.  And it wasn't just prostitutes and witches they were burning at the stake... it was also Catholics, Quakers, Jews... essentially anyone who disagreed with their chosen religion. There's a lot of talk thrown around about how this country was founded on the idea of RELIGIOUS FREEDOM... well, it was freedom as long as you AGREED with the folks in power.  Freedom is a fundamental belief in this country, talked about all the time, this is the LAND OF THE FREE... well, as long as you AGREE with the folks in power.

I would *love* to vote and make a difference... unfortunately I will say that at least in the elections here in MD, each candidate was a clone of the next.  Their quotes were so similar stating their beliefs that it was impossible to tell them apart. So I don't feel my vote had any power whatsoever, since they were virtually identical! And after the last election, I think we are all aware of just how much weight the popular vote carries.

I would feel sorry for Ashcroft... IF he were not in the position of power he is over me... over you... over all of us.  Because of his position I feel no sympathy for him, only anger.

Insofar as a website goes... I'd be happy to create a site crusade, IF I thought it would have any effect aside from bringing down the wrath of people like Ashcroft upon me.  COYOTE has been in existence for ages now, and what have they accomplished? I support their efforts... but we are not shedding our puritanical beliefs in government, anytime soon.

Sincerely,
Nicole

The term Courtesan I believe is a term derived from the european community and yes, they were revered in the 14th century until Christianity became more prevelant within society.  

The term Geisha is asian, were and still are prevelant in Japan and still revered.  Geisha's aren't as popular as they once were.  The 20th century bought about a more open mind about sexuality in general and the Geisha's role has diminished greatly.  They are a cultural icon to this day and are very well respected.  They also have tourists that frequent certain establishments to learn what their place in culture and society is and their importance.

I do agree with your puritan statements though.  I find it amazing that although we live in the most free country of the world, we are still the most sexually oppressed because of those puritan views that are still prevalent today.

It is also interesting to me that everyone seems to be surprised at the recent uprise in attacks on the hobby in general.  It was part of the republican platform in their campaign for the presidency. Did everyone miss that?  They are keeping their campaign promise.  Ashcroft never hid his ideals then either. You got what you asked for.

There has to be a middle ground here somewhere.  For although I am not a great fan of Bush, I can say I thanked God myself that he was  in office when the terrorists strikes occurred.  Each party has their best attributes and their worse.  It would be wonderful if a party was formed that took the best the democratic and republican parties for their own.  That I believe would bring about great progress and change.

It comes down to each individuals ideals of what is moral and what is not.  They are different for everyone.  Once government stops forcing what should be moral and what should not down our throat can we truly make any progress here.  

Lauren

I'm not grumpy. I just get sick of people railing without proposing a solution. Like 'Generous Doctor'. I wonder if he has shoulder problems from patting himself on the back.

But I'd say, get Ashcroft outta there, at least as a step in the right direction.

But that's no solution either, is it? Wasn't he APPOINTED by Bush? And thus our vote would be irrelevant?

Ah, government by representation... and I'm sure we're all aware by now of how relevant our popular vote in the presidential elections is!  

Solution... nope I don't have one. But I am sure that people bitched and moaned, ranted and raved, for months and months (more likely, YEARS) before the American Revolution actually began. And we do still have the freedom to do that much.

Nicole

I see your point. But isn't it IRONIC that the Supreme Court just ruled that the word GOD in the Pledge of Allegiance violates the constitution... and meanwhile, Ashcroft can force whomever he likes to pray with him????

Oooooooooh, the irony!

Hugs*
Nicole

The supreme court ruling I don't particularly care for, but I am not all the ruffled about it, either -- I think it's just a waste of time. That being said, the "under G-d" part was added in 1954 and thus not an original part of the pledge.

I don't know what you mean about Ashcroft "forcing" others to pray with him, though.  He may invite others, but not force.

More important, how come you don't come to New York?  I would love to show you what a bad, bad girl you are!

-Hoot.

-- Modified on 9/26/2002 12:36:32 PM

-- Modified on 9/26/2002 4:30:06 PM

It was the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

-Hoot.