TER General Board

Truth? Whose truth? Absolute truth?
Bizzaro Superdude 1531 reads
posted

The last person who refused to fall into the trap of identifying truth was tacked to a tree about 2000 years ago.  

Understand that while the invasion was occuring many Europeans decried the demise of the the "noble savage" who was neither noble nor savage.  Only human. Were they invaded?  yes.  Has everything that happened been bad ?  no.

But please spare me from your view that because obscure scholars in the decadant halls of academia happen to support your self hatred view of western european society - and again - I ask - the significance of 1492.  other than the obvious...

or would you  be happier living in a feudal middle ages society?  help me here.... or maybe you prefer Aztec sacrifice?  help me....

Oh and while on the topic... the natives, they too believed in slavery.... So get real... and understand that "civilization" is about as thick as one synaptic gap in the weakest of our civilization....

Just kidding...happy day to you and yours as well!!!

Bizzaro Superdude1370 reads

that I have met over the past couple of years, thanks for the laughs, the advice and the occasional attitude adjustment of me!  I am thankful for all of your friendship, even if in some instances it comes in quantum packages of electrons....  

and to all the providers that I have had the pleasure of.... thanks for those quantums of the pleasure of meeting you.  I hope that all of you have many things to give thanks for....

For through it's challenges I've discovered the truest of friends.

  Blessings to all this Thanksgiving.

  FR.

Remember the pilgrims who sacrificed so much to live here and the Native Americans who helped them.

Hugs,
Ciara

And...

Let's not forget the turkeys whom paid the ultimate sacrifice.

They're still paying!

Cheers!

BTW,You remind me of a Sierra from Arizona who roamed these parts that I once never got to know...but would have liked to...Cheers!

they've read scripts and have no account of the pilgrims actually eating turkey. They did, however, dine on fish, lobster, corn (or maize) and pheasant.  Shocking, I know!

Hugs,
Ciara

Elon M1603 reads

LOL, I love the pic, and a very good point too

Just want to make sure everyone is aware of the actual history. It wasn't all shiny and happy. I'm glad that we all give thanks for that which we are blessed today, but to forget a sordid past teaches us no lessons.

-- Modified on 11/24/2005 6:59:56 PM

actually they didn't even eat turkey. It was documented that they ate corn (of course) from their harvest that the "Native-Americans" helped them plant, venison, fish and lobster.  Yes, lobster!  They ate potatoes but not mashed. Wink!  Also, the Native-Americans taught the colonists how to plant in (what is now called New England)incredibly diverse soil. About half of the colonists died of starvation and disease after landing on American soil within the first two years. And no, sorry folkes, they did not wear the black shoes and wide buckle on their belts. Those were the Puritans (that came later).

Hugs,
Ciara

Ignorant Man Slut3087 reads

There was no massacre! The Pilgrams could barely feed themselves, let alone form an army!
How foolish to believe some fool with a chip on his sholder over all recorded history!

Go spend your holiday gambling alone at some indian casino, rather than spewing your tripe here! Maybe then you'll feel "cleansed" of your guilt if you loose big at their craps table!

I don't accept blame for what was done before me, but what was done to the natives is not generally argued about. The trail of tears, etc, are documented things that happened. The massacres that occured when we first occupied the nation are not fallacies, either. I'm not going to argue with you.

You may also notice that in my OP I said that I think what the holiday is today is nice.

Actually, the 2nd "Thanksgiving" (in the U.S.A.) was celebrated by the Dutch governor of Manhattan in the year of 1641, offering thanks for the first "Scalp Bounty". This was broadened by the Puritans to include a bounty for Natives fit to be sold for slavery. The Dutch and the Puritans (with Bible passages in their hands to justify their every move), joined forces to exterminate all "Natives Savages" from New England. Woman and children over 14 were captured to be sold as slaves; other survivors were massacred. The Natives were sold into slavery in the West Indies, the Azures, Spain, Algiers and England, where ever the Puritan traded. The slave trade was so lucrative that boatloads of 500 at a time left the harbors of New England. So, the 2nd "Thanksgiving" was to celebrate the victory (massacre) over the "Heathen Savages". During the feasting, the hacked off heads of Natives were kicked through the streets of Manhattan like soccer balls as part of the celebration.


http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:KNA7oMReHwIJ:www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/history/ThanksgivingDayMassacre.htm+thanksgiving+massacre+history&hl=en
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:WESeGoPzt3YJ:www.inglewoodcarecentre.com/history/thanksgiving.htm+thanksgiving+massacre+history&hl=en

Ignorant Man Slut1914 reads

Considering how you take the word of a a few obscure, agenda driven websites over the almost infinite number of history resources that prove you wrong!

Why should I bother listing any more resources to you?  Your so far off course now that you'll never find your way back!  
If you ever find your way out of the sands of stupidity that you have driven your head into past your shoulders, you could start by  searching words like "pilgrim", or "thanksgiving" on THIS "obscure" website!

I'd consider you a lost cause however, so believe what you want, and for that matter your free to offer this as your opinion, but don't come in the room and spew this as if it were the irrefutable standard of truth!  


-- Modified on 11/24/2005 4:53:41 PM

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:h4PZOmmHwM8J:www.drwnet.com/wings/jwthanks.htm+true+history+of+thanksgiving&hl=en

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:bQnm_UzFBtIJ:home.earthlink.net/~uainendom/Mnanum98.htm+%22true+history+of+thanksgiving%22&hl=en


Really obscure.

Text from the second link:

Speech by Moonanum James, Co-Leader of United American Indians of New England

at the 29th National Day of Mourning, November 26, 1998



Good afternoon Sisters and Brothers:

On October 19th of this year, a little over 30 days ago, United American Indians of New England and the Town of Plymouth signed a most historically significant document. Under the terms of this settlement agreement, the frame-up charges against 25 of us from last year were dropped. Plymouth has provided funds for a Native educational project and also for two historical plaques in town, one here on Cole's Hill and one in Post Office Square, that will have factual information about National Day of Mourning and about the true history of the pilgrim invasion. Finally, Plymouth has recognized our right to have National Day of Mourning here every year and to march in Plymouth without a permit.

This settlement with Plymouth marks the first time since 1620 that the pilgrims have been forced to stop taking and start giving something back to the Native people.

This victory was made possible because of the support of people from not only this area but from across the country and around the world. Countless thousands of people signed petitions, sent faxes, made telephone calls, and wrote letters supporting our struggle for justice. Also key was the support and sacrifice of the Plymouth 25 themselves, the 25 people, from the four directions, who were arrested last year for the supposed "crime" of supporting our struggle. Many of the Plymouth 25 are here today, and we want to acknowledge them and recognize them as heroes in the people's struggle.

I will not now recount the events that took place on National Day of Mourning 1997. Those who witnessed what happened to us at the hands of the combined forces of the state will long remember what happened. For Native people it was just one more incident in a long history of our mistreatment at the hands of the European invaders. We have not forgotten, we well remember, the long, bloody trail of European conquest that led from early settlements like Plymouth to places like Great Swamp, Sand Creek, and Wounded Knee.

National Day of Mourning began in this manner: Nearly 30 years ago a Wampanoag man, Wamsutta Frank James, was invited to address a gathering of so-called dignitaries celebrating the 350th anniversary of the arrival of the Pilgrims. When he attempted to tell the truth, he was told his words were not acceptable. The planners of the gathering, fearing the truth, told him he could speak only if he were willing to speak false words in praise of the white man. He refused. National Day of Mourning came into being as a result of his refusal to speak untrue words.

Many times over the past year we have been asked what is the true history of thanksgiving. This comes as no surprise. The truth has been buried for over 375 years. The first Thanksgiving did not occur in 1621 when the pilgrim survivors of the first winter sat down to dinner with their Indian friends. The first official day of thanksgiving and feasting in Massachusetts was proclaimed by Gov. Winthrop of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1637. He did this to give thanks for the safe return of men from the colony who had gone to what is now Mystic, Connecticut to participate in the massacre of over 700 Pequot men, women and children.

What happened in October of 1621 may have been a harvest home, but the Indians who attended were not even invited by the Pilgrims, who considered our people to be devils. No turkey, cranberry sauce, or pumpkin pie was served. Just days before this alleged thanksgiving communion, a company of pilgrims led by Myles Standish actively sought the head of a local chief. The pilgrims deliberately caused a rivalry between two friendly Indians, pitting one against the other in the classic European method of divide and conquer. An 11 foot high wall was erected around the entire Plymouth settlement for the purpose of keeping the Indians out.

Native people do not give thanks just one day a year. Every day, we thank the Creator for this beautiful earth and for our survival. But we will not give thanks for the European invasion of our country. We will not celebrate the theft of our lands and the genocide of our people. We will not sing and dance to please the tourists who come here seeking a Disneyland version of history. Attention all tourists: If you are expecting us to put on a show, you would be better advised to go down to Plymouth Rock and watch the tide wash over it.

That first Day of Mourning back in 1970 was a powerful demonstration of Native unity. Today is a powerful demonstration of not only Native unity, but of the unity of all people from the Four Directions who want the truth to be told and want to see an end to the oppressive system brought to these shores by the Pilgrim invaders.

There are those who feel threatened by the movement that we are building when we come together at National Day of Mourning. There are those who would have us be good Indians and act like a conquered people and beg for the scraps from the Thanksgiving table.

But these attacks are merely spit in the winds of change.

Some ask us: Will you ever stop protesting? Some day we will stop protesting: We will stop protesting when the merchants of Plymouth are no longer making millions of dollars off the blood of our slaughtered ancestors. We will stop protesting when we can act as sovereign nations on our own land without the interference of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and what Sitting Bull called the "favorite ration chiefs." When corporations stop polluting our mother, the earth. When racism has been eradicated. When the oppression of Two-Spirited people is a thing of the past. We will stop protesting when homeless people have homes and no child goes to bed hungry. When police brutality no longer exists in communities of color. We will stop protesting when Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu Jamal and the Puerto Rican independentistas and all the political prisoners are free.

Until then, the struggle will continue.

Today, we will correct some history and do so in a country that continues to glorify butchers such as Christopher Columbus, glorifies slave-owning presidents such as Washington and Jefferson and even carves their faces into the sacred Black Hills of the Lakota.

But we have a lot more to talk about than the pilgrims or what happened in the 1600s. We will also be speaking today, as we have every year since 1970, about conditions in Indian country today, about the racism which we face on a daily basis. We are here, as we have been for 28 years, to unite people and to speak the truth. On our program will be only Native speakers. This is one day when we speak for ourselves, without non-Native people, so-called "experts," intervening to interpret and speak for us. We are more than capable of speaking for ourselves.

Today, for a few hours, we are gathered here in liberated territory. Our very presence frees this land from the lies of the history books, the profiteers, and the mythmakers. We will remember and honor all of our ancestors in struggle who went before us. We will speak truth to power. We will remember in particular all of our sisters and brothers, including Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu Jamal, who are caged in the iron houses.

We are not vanishing. We are not conquered. We are as strong as ever.


-- Modified on 11/24/2005 6:58:42 PM

-- Modified on 11/24/2005 7:10:00 PM

MsColdHeartedBitch2187 reads

Hey Daddy O, in your flash of brilliance you spelled it wrong ,it's 'Berkeley' and having lived there I can say it's a fine place why don't you spend some time there yourself? And Rose is quite right, it is shameful how history has been and continues to be re-written, did you think that we were all born morally correct? How stupid can you be?

And you think your not lost in the sands of stupidity? You want to believe a bunch of white men who of course say they didn't do the things they did to the natives because why would anyone admit to that kind of stuff. Many Germans want to say the Holocaust never happened now either, doesn't mean it didn't. Being 1/4 Native American I have heard about the lies that have been spewed in history books to cover the massacre of almost all native americans. Ignorant Man is perfect for you, don't ever change that name.

B-Pop

Bizzaro Superdude4029 reads

European invasion on the whole is a true depiction... it is important to note that self hatred is not the best way forward.  True - our forefathers did a "lot of bad things."  But what has, in general, distinguished the "American experiment in democracy" from much that has gone before it is a willingness to recognize mistakes of the past, assimilate other cultures and viewpoints, and to improve.  And that latter is what I give thanks for - that I live in a society that improves.  Hopefully, we will reverse the trend in this country to trash it... and realize that it actually is better than the alternatives...  

And to prove the point of assimilation - several of the tenants of our governing documnets owe to more or less degree, their origins in Native American tribal governance.

the comment about the "pilgrims". Believe me, I'd like to maintain a hopeful and optimistic viewpoint on human evolution, especially relating to our own society, even tho I don't know it's warranted anymore... That's another topic that I won't bother with. I can't go there, I just can't. There are many things about our government, however flawed it is, that leave it still better than the alternatives for the most part, as you mention. Other than that, I'll leave the topic alone.

Ignorant Man Slut1794 reads

Look up how the treated EACH OTHER in rival tribes for thousands of years prior to our arrival!

AMERICA IS NOT THE WORLD-WIDE BAD GUY THAT YOU AND YOUR TYPE WANT PEOPLE TO THINK!

The world was a barbaric and ruthless place, for the natives, and most anywhere else for that matter - "The American Experment" has brought INFINITELY MORE GOOD to this land and to the world than bad!
Why do you focus on the few short comings, most of which are twisted and exaggerated to support some foolish cause, and pass over the truth!

At first I thought your head was merely buried in the "sand" But now I see your condition is much worse than that!

Did you or did you not notice me say that I like what has been done with the holiday? Did you or did you not see me agree with B.S. that our country is better than most, if not all, other options? Did you or did you not see me say that I didn't want to "go here" except that I felt I had to after reading the post which prompted my post. Hmn, I guess someone just wants to hate me and my ability to think broadly rather than all in one vein.

Ignorant Man Slut1884 reads

In fact I never accused you of thinking at all!

You were posting made up tripe as fact in your origional post.

You are intitled to your wrong opinion, that's not the issue. The issue is you claiming that your tribal myth is the truth! When it has no period dated, written history to support it, and it was clearly made up to serve an agenda!

The "Google" comment was just meant as a slap at your stupidity, and you actually took it seriously! (further reinforcing my claim!)
While on Google, Did you notice that less than 100 sites support your claim, but about 768,000 support the ACTUAL truth?
 You can find sites that say space aliens cooked the first Thanksgiving dinner if you look hard enough, but it don't make it the TRUTH, just because some idiot said so!

Also I don't recall saying I "hated" you or anyone else, Just because I think you are easly fooled, poorly read, lack "steep" in history, are overly emotionally lead in how you form opinions, and would rather "feel" your way to a conclusion than "think" something through! But I clearly never implied that I felt any "hatred" toward you, in fact I feel nothing toward you at all. I THINK you are a fool, but I FEEL nothing towards you what so ever!

Man, your the one living in a fantasy world, seriously...your the one that needs to think before you speak (or write). You can't believe history books for this kind of information, just like you can't live life by the bible, both are books written by men to push their beliefs and agendas off as fact on the weak minded or preach the "word of god". The more and more I read from you, you should seriously consider getting your name legally changed to Ignorant Man...now if you'll excuse I've had a few drinks and reading the garbage your writing is making my headache even worse.

In closing I'll leave you with this, My history professor once said to my class, I'm here to teach whats in these books, not the truth.


B-Pop

..."forefathers" self hatred? your logic in this department is full of holes!! its like today's german people saying its self hatred to criticise Hitler!! I'm not comparing the forefathers with Hitler at all!! what i'm saying is,those people (forefathers) were fallible, and if they commited mistakes and  crimes, you dissociate yourself from their actions, not saying its self hatred when their actions are questioned! After all they were not angels, saints....etc, they were politicians, and they had their own agendas set for those days! Secondly... honestly? is this society(the democracy) improving as you profess it is? I don't deny this country is still the best democracy in the world! But if you see the trend & pattern of progress(as democracy is concerned), especially for the past 5 years, I seriously doubt your answer would be "yes".
Last but not least, it seems you are a fair person(I must add that you are also astute & articulate) even though I may not agree with some of your Ideas, but I can definately have meaningful dialogue with you! But I personally will not dignify having dialogue with an ignorant person like "Ignorant Man Slut", because he has nothing to offer but to disrespect & demean respectable and smart people(in this case Rose), and try to force their dry, dogmatic views to others!! It would not be called a dialogue, but a total waste of valuable time!

Emperor Palpatine2531 reads

...but we all know they were in dire need of masacreing.

-- Modified on 11/25/2005 1:30:00 AM

The well-named Ignorant Man Slut culled his facts from a Christian based site...which I would expect to agree with the "sanitized" version of New England history.

The Natives, though, will never forget the truth...their spoken word history has frequently proved to be more accurate than what Whites have put forth.

Bizzaro Superdude1532 reads

The last person who refused to fall into the trap of identifying truth was tacked to a tree about 2000 years ago.  

Understand that while the invasion was occuring many Europeans decried the demise of the the "noble savage" who was neither noble nor savage.  Only human. Were they invaded?  yes.  Has everything that happened been bad ?  no.

But please spare me from your view that because obscure scholars in the decadant halls of academia happen to support your self hatred view of western european society - and again - I ask - the significance of 1492.  other than the obvious...

or would you  be happier living in a feudal middle ages society?  help me here.... or maybe you prefer Aztec sacrifice?  help me....

Oh and while on the topic... the natives, they too believed in slavery.... So get real... and understand that "civilization" is about as thick as one synaptic gap in the weakest of our civilization....

"That's nitpicking".

Has everything that happened been bad? Self hatred of Western European society?  Happier living in a feudal middle ages society?

Dude, where are you pulling that stuff out of to support your inferred conclusion?  I simply was pointing out that that stuff DID happen.  Whether is is for better or worse is academic.  I, like rose, just don't believe in glossing over history.

And speaking of which, your implied comparison of the Natives use of slavery, which was limited and something that was about as developed as their use of warfare, to the WE's use of slavery, where foreign continents were plundered and it was race related (and, oh yeah, the Natives were sold, too) is so off the mark, it is laughable.

Elon M2303 reads

And if you don't have anyone to spend it with, enjoy the day off, hopefully you at least have that. By the way McDonald's is open until the evening. I'm chowing on my Thanksgiving Big Mac as I type and is it good.

...who are you and how did you manage to break into Cooch's TER account?

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