Hey gang , help me out here!
After answereing the latest TER question on does seeing a provider improve your "normal relationship", 54% said yes! Now that seems ridiculously high to me.  I'd beleive 15-20%, maybe, would respond yes, but over 50% of us actually think it "improves" our relationships.  For those that said yes, fill me in.  How does it improve your "normal relationship"??  I could understand it not making it worse or unsure of it's actual effect, but I can't understand a majority saying it improves it. It sounds a lot like saying "if we build it they will come...if we say it, we will believe it...Maybe I'm wrong, so fill me in, or maybe as more people vote the % will fall...who knows  

For me, seeing a quality provider that is responsive and receptive, non rushing and fun, my overall attitude is greatly improved.

Since my wife doesn't like sex, and I need affection, having someone pay complete attention to my needs keeps me sane.

It's an outlet and as many of us call it, a "hobby".  This hobby like any other, is a way to have fun and release pressure.  Relationships are like work! So I can understand the need for this outlet to take the pressure off and have fun.

I also fall on side of the affirmative.  Two of the hobby's principal benefits to me are reducing the sexual pressure that accompanies most of us till near-death (duh) and expanding our horizon of exciting new experiences (maybe not so duh).  Both of these help with my normal spouse/family/business relationships, in other words they help me withstand the humdrum, dull and often just plain foolish stuff that fills most of our lives.  And I don't believe anyone who says those humdrum, dull and foolish things aren't there, no matter how much the love and devotion and church underpins their marriage and other relationships.  Hell, I'm one for making visits with our hobby friends tax-deductible as medical expense.  And when the time comes, most assuredly our visits should be covered by Medicare.  And when are we going to have a president with an Eros listing on her resume (sure beats what we have now)?

I can understand the sex angle, but if your wife is not providing affection either, I really have a rough time understanding the whole marriage thing.

...as I posted on the L.A. board I am amused at how we manage to be able to rationalize almost anything.  "But Honey, I'm only seeing escorts to HELP our relationship"--yeah right.

I just hope I never find myself in a relationship that needs to be "helped" by seeing an escort.

Posters above mention primarily that seeing escorts relieves stress--well so might a round of golf.  But go ahead guys, keep rationalizing that it's all on the up and up.

"Posters above mention primarily that seeing escorts relieves stress--well so might a round of golf"

Exactly, some of us have several different hobbies, and participate in a variety of activities such as golf, tennis, bowling, sex, etc.  They are all there for the same reasons.  I don't think anyone here is trying to "rationalize" anything, we are just expressing how we feel about this topic.

...I'm sorry, but despite the lame term "hobbyist", I think equating seeing an escort with playing golf or tennis is in itself a rationalization.  They are in NO WAY the same. To say "they are there for the same reasons" is a cop out.

-- Modified on 1/7/2003 8:03:24 PM

That's YHO and that's OK.  This is a good thing, we can all see how others view this.

You are speaking much truth.. As a hobbyist in many respects I don't like looking into the mirror.  I will probably stop this pretty soon. I sought it out because of the lack of sex in my own marriage which has only come to pass due to the pressures of twin babies and a 5 year old and so on.. My wife does love me, I have intamacy, and affection, which most people who do this do not have... I have broken my wedding vows, lied, and used our money to satisfy a hedonistic impulse... Rationalize that!!!

My wife is very conservative in terms of exploring sexuality. At this vulnerable moment in my life, I wanted to least experience what it was like so I would not have any regrets.. I am close to satisfying that curiousity. But I will have to live with the guilt for the rest of my life... I have rationalized it... will live with it... but it ain't all pretty..


Sorry to be a downer but lets not all delude ourselves..

You seem to be interested in putting as big a damper on the atmosphere as you can.

I just say what I mean and mean what I say--don't read my posts if you don't like them. But, I know you will.



-- Modified on 1/7/2003 9:18:24 PM

Not at all. Offering another perspective to the heads in the cloud perspective being offered on the boards. Not going to continue this line of thought because it is to damn depressing.

Convenience is the best way I can describe it.

When we first married, there was plenty of affection. Right up until 6 or 7 years ago. Now it is mundane .... go home, eat dinner, play with the child and dogs, go to bed, get kicked in the head, wake up, go to work.

I got tired of the rejection of my advances years ago and don't even try anymore.

I have just realized why I do this. I am addicted to women, and the way they make me feel. Their soft sensual touching, kissing and the smooth skin. The desire to touch and be touched (which I do not receive at home) the therapeutic value of human relations that relax me.

Every man in a bad marriage must answer the question of why he stays for himself.  Walking away from a marriage, especially with children involved, is and should not be easy.  In my case, if I did not have children I would have left a few years ago, after I convinced myself that the rounds of counseling (single and joint) would not work.  My wife and I have similar values in how to raise children and many other things (political, cultural, etc.), she just lost her interest in sex.  I feel a responsibility not to wreck my children's lives so that I can be happier sexually and otherwise.  Of course, were I caught in the hobby, the result might be the same.  That is a risk I am willing to take, but I am not willing to walk out on them.  Would the kids be better off if there was love and affection in the house?  Yes.  Would they be better off than the present situation if I moved out?  My answer is no.

Well said.  EOM

I envy you. Your reasoning and rationale are alot less complicated then mine. I think you have a better chance of going through this and not suffering any of the mental anguish that others go through..

I am amazed at the amount of hand-wringing going on here.  For you single guys, many women become significantly less interested in sex once they have children - often simply because they are tired.  Many warm, loving wives will never be interested in more than the most traditional sexual practices - for example no DATY and no BJ covered or not.  At some point, I realized I could not go the rest of my life having sex only once every 6-8 weeks, never having oral sex ever again, and settle for cuddling.  Prior to seeing service providers, my frustration with my wife's sexuality was beginning to affect our relationship.  Since I started seeing service providers, I have a much more understanding attitude, our lives are closer, we are more affectionate, and YES we have better sex.

I don't agree or disagree with what you say -- I don't like the "walk in other people's shoes" game.  However, I am left with a few questions.

Does your wife know that you use providers to improve the relationship?  Is the "white" lie worth the benefits you gain?  What is lost if your improvement method was discovered?  Flip the coin -- what if your wife confided in other men (maybe emotionally more the sexually) to improve her relationship would you?  How would you feel about that?

I'm just curious how other people rationalize/view the hobby, especially those in relationships (either with the partner knowing, completely unaware, or purposely ignorant).  I went from being a single guy only seeing providers to being in a monogomous relationship.

My girlfriend knows damned well about my past, because I'm of the theory that complete disclosure of prior acts was the best way to go.  She would drop me in a split second if I saw a provider again (and she discovered it), but I find part of me starting to crave the variety of sexual partners I saw before.  Also, even though my GF is very "open-minded", and does things with me most providers wouldn't do, there is a thing (which I won't mention here -- that can go in another thread) which she doesn't feel comfortable doing, but I'm starting to miss.

Your storey sound similar to mind. The key difference is you are not suffering any emotional guilt like I am. I would love to talk to you more off line...

"just lost her interest in sex"??  You talk about getting caught in the hobby but a woman who's not having sex with her husband should not be surprised to find out he's seeing providers.  You two should get counseling.  It could be a chemical problem.  There's hope.

I think life is a series of compromises, particularly when two individuals intertwine their lives together.  I don't think any two people are 100% the same and much of the stress of a relationship comes when these compromises don't seem fair.  My wife dictates the terms of our sex life together and my wishes were not even given lip service, pun not intended.

I have obviously thought about what would happen were I caught at this. I believe that we are animals with an inate sexuality. To be honest, I think it's highly likely that we would have gotten divorced anyway if I hadn't found an outlet for my libido.  

My commitment is to be as paranoid as possible in keeping this hidden.  Never in my home city.  Always use an anonymous proxy to surf incriminating sites.  Let no acquaintance know that I do this.  Hide the financial transactions through elaborate schemes.  Keep no momentos.  Change nothing about my daily routine.  I have talked to ATFs about this and the reality is that the way that trusting SOs find out is because men do NOT take adequate precautions.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all the input, but I still don't get it.  It's now up to 60%.  I guess the key part of the question I missed on was "normal" relationships, not dysfunctional.   I understand what is being said about relaxation and the likes of reducing stress, but those are things we all need, from whatever source, to put us in posisition on a daily basis to take the next steps to improve our relationships.  Anyway, thanks for all the feedback!

Married, kids, job, pension, home, club, and sex once every 6-8 weeks without BJ or DATY or anything else but by the book.  What's wrong with this picture?  Doesn't take a psychiatrist to say "get layed", and that is exactly what drives many of us  hobbyists.  It's good for our pressure and frustration and good for our home life, and the church may preach guilt but I'm not buying because it adds to contentment all around.  Wives have babies or get older or just lose passion or whatever, and if they're caring and realistic and not totally brainwashed or overly proud they want their husbands' sexual needs fulfilled.  Of course the hobby is therapeutic, and although I wouldn't advertise it to my wife and risk her second guessing my motive (does he still love me?, is he still happy with me?, is he happy he married me?), I am most assuredly satisfied that I have faced reality and solved a problem otherwise absolutely detrimental to tranquility of my marriage, my home and both of our existances here on earth.  Now, if any of my fellows on this board think that a contradiction or rationalization, I'd like to know of what.  As a sex starved but otherwise loving and happily married guy, I certainly AM NOT ashamed to be a hobbyist.  I AM ashamed of our society's irrational churchy blindness to the need for some degree of sexual outlet in a biologically fairly predictable repressive environment, and of our pre-conditioning to automatically doubt or misunderstand a spouse's motives when it comes to infidelity.  I also AM ashamed of the great many supposed adults making terrible choices about spouses and entering into ill advised marriages and then turning to infidelity to bury their grief.  Divorce, not the hobby, is the answer for this latter group, along of course with sage advice to "grow up".  I don't expect in this short diatribe to have covered all the bases of logic to this argument, but think big and I expect you'll get my drift.

One simple rule I have followed my entire life.

Keep it simple.

B.O.P,
First I wanted to let you know that I appreciate your responses. There has been some good input on this topic. This is a topic I've discussed numerous times in my Private life, and also in my Provider life with other Provider friends.
There's a lot I would like to say, but some would be a 'conflict of interest', so to speak, and so I won't.
I do want to ask, and say this much, though. I'm not so sure if the lack of interest (in sex) was so much because 'you have the kids' and are simply tired, which is true, but it's more than just that. When I was married, and the kids were small, it was very hard to change from the Mother/Keeper of the house Role to Sex Goddess/Wife role. Also, it wasn't sex I was tired of, but HIM. I didn't like HIM anymore, and didn't even want to be with him, in any form. The kids did 'ruin' it for me in one sense because of the privacy, spontaneity, etc, but, with the right person, I would've FOUND the opportunity. Once we split up, I couldn't seem to get enough! It was so refreshing, and new!
I've wondered so many times, then, why do people get married if they don't think they can be faithful and monogamous? Why do people get married if they can't have the kind of closeness that allows them to be who they are and be able to say anything?? And, certainly, in these times, you have options. I, for one, don't plan to marry (ever) again, I love being single, and being a Provider gives me everything I could want - I love it! But, I do have men in my personal life, who know what I do (one encouraged it, and helped me), and, if I were to have a more 'serious', exclusive relationship in my personal life, he would have to be of the same mind - maybe an 'open' relationship. How many of you think you could tell your wives, or SO's that you'd like to 'open' up some experiences, as a COUPLE, and start small, do the swing scene, or have another couple over, have dinner, flirt with the opposite partner, etc, and just experiment? I don't understand being in a relationship that is supposed to be your absolute best friend in the world, know everything about you, and you can't discuss these things?
Here's a question, too, maybe it would make a good TER weekly question: what is your ideal relationship?
If you could have it 'your way', what would it be?
I, for one, have to be completely free. I have to do whatever I want, whenever I want to, with whomever I want...and maybe I won't want to...but it's nice to know I could..it's nice to know that it's ok..
Achillesheal, I'm worried about you, big buddy, and I hope maybe you can have some PM with BOP. I'm glad you posted what you did. There's ALWAYS someone else feeling the same thing, but doesn't want to say so, and you probably just made it easier for them. You can PM me, if you want. Somebody'll get you through..

Happy trails,

Sedona

Comments well put and well taken.  I will say this -- right thinking guys don't start in marriage thinking anything else but that this is forever and this is the only girl I'll ever need in my life, emotionally, physically and every other way.  As the years pass though, it is the rare couple that can keep the sexual excitement alive (I only know a few out of many acquaintences, and even those one never knows for sure).  Too many conflicts, demands, outside pressures, money interests, kid problems, and just plain maturing (or the opposite) and changes in feelings and attitudes. The very rare and lucky couple adjusts to all of this and the sexual component stays alive and exciting and on the agenda.  But for most others, sex is the first thing to go and the rest either follows or not.  It is this latter group, couples committed and respectful and open and putting each other first and proud to be together but drifting sexually, that improves with the help of church or psychological counseling or sexual re-training or something else, and for many that something else is our hobby.  In my opinion, visiting providers is just more direct and far more assured of success than the alternatives, all of which rely either on churchy brainwashing (for want of a better term and I don't mean to start a whole new string just on that, but you know what I mean), are emotionally stressful and highly problematical and rarely I believe successful in the true sense of the word.  Sure the church and counseling and re-training may achieve the appearance of solution and in some cases even real adjustment, but I think real adjustment is rare -- I've a number of friends who have tried one or more of these but never have the results been anything but superficial.  I am convinced that married couples are responsible to each other to face reality for their own mutual sakes and for sakes of their kids and all others involved, and that given the taboos surrounding the sexual component that sometimes means taking matters in hand and going for a direct solution, and if as for most that means admitting to each other that sex no longer works for them (as my wife and I did years ago and just agreed to let it lie and are otherwise proud and contented to have each other to the exclusion of others) then so be it.  Again, from my prior posting, the sexual taboo thing often requires either above-human expectation of understanding from a spouse or just plain trust that the guy is doing what he has to do in a safe and non-threatening way to cover the situation.  Would it be any different to employ a sexual surrogate to kind of legitimize things?  For some, maybe yes.  But there again comes the question of sexual excitement and sponteneity that often stands in the way of that being a real solution.  No easy answers here so we turn to what to me is the obvious, and that is just people turning to other people to smooth life's bumps and make safer and more contented the family unit.  As an aside, if the tables were reversed but the outcome the same in terms of family and personal harmony, I would be fine with my wife turning to a male escort with only her physical needs involved.  Woe be it however in either case if the escort becomes a surrogate- or real-LOVE, because that spells doom and is not the subject I am speaking to here.  That obviously is totally contrary to any honest solution and probably dispells any assumptiopn that all else in the marriage is as should be in the first place.  Again I apologize for giving this a rather broad stroke and quick rendition, but I think the big picture as I see it comes across.  

-- Modified on 1/10/2003 6:23:44 AM

> I've wondered so many times, then, why do people get married
> if they don't think they can be faithful and monogamous?

They get married thinking they WILL be faithful and monogamous.
It's analagous to buying a new car, with that shiny paint and
that new car aroma, and all the gadgets and gizmos and knobs
that are all new and intriguing.  "I LOVE this car!"
Two or three years later...it's just another car.

Then there's biological drive and emotions which no doubt
obscure long-term vision.  While we may not ourselves
be consciously aware of it, there's a lot of truth to the
axiom "Men trade love for sex; women trade sex for love."

> Why do people get married if they can't have the kind of
> closeness that allows them to be who they are and be able
> to say anything??

Morality, religion, social mores, "values" instilled in us
by parents, teachers, and countless others. Oftentimes it
begins with that first judgemental rebuke, "You want to
do WHAT?!?!" After the first one, we become more guarded.
With increasing rebukes, we become very circumspect and
guarded.  Other human emotions are also to blame, primarily
jealousy.  Then there's "ownership"...and "security"...and
the comfort of "the known."

Bonobos have the answer.

>I wanted to least experience what it was like so I would not
>have any regrets

And that, Achilles, is what life's all about. If you
hadn't experienced it, it would always be a source of regret.

I felt like you when I first sampled the "forbidden fruit."
And I quit...for quite some time.
Then I felt a desire again, and indulged it, but this time
it was not accompanied by all the guilt society tries to
dump on you for indulging a perfectly natural desire.
That guilt has been developed over eons primarily to
preserve the family unit, and it doesn't appear you've
abandoned yours, so that guilt is not designed, or intended,
for you.  Let somebody more deserving possess it.

Stop carrying around all that baggage that somebody else
packed for *their* trip, not yours.  

Oh Brother..Here we go again...qb4...two steps forward...2k1..10 steps back...!!!!Some folks are just not happy unless they heap their baggage on other peoples back...No one NEEDS to justify feeling good...We're suppose to..What needs to be understood is why some don't feel intitled to feel good, and want others to feel guilt as they do...