Civvie sex is not hard work at all unless you call waiting around for a month before she lets you make a move. Stay away from bars and clubs. The best civvie sex is found in the grocery story believe it or not. You'll find desperate housewives too. Relax and ask for dates. but be bold and you'll get rewarded.

going to spread her legs or get down on her knees for a guy in his 60's.  Ain't happening unless you have an envelope to put on the dresser or nightstand.

What works for one guy won't work for another, so you've got to do what you're comfortable with.  We don't know anything about you, so we can't really say do this or that with any credibility.  But there are certain general rules that you should follow.  For example, don't go chasing after the 9's or 10's that every guy in the world is chasing, you'll just get disappointed and discouraged.  Yes, they're beautiful, but unless you're a 9 or a 10 too, you're just going to go home feeling like shit after they tell you to get lost.

Find nice girls that are appropriate for you, then show them you're worth getting to know better.  This can take a little time, so don't try to do it all at once.  It really helps if you learn to be comfortable in your own skin.  LIke the person you are, exude a little confidence, some humor, and of course the basics like good grooming and decent looking clothes.  Women respond to guys that are happy and confident, so check your body language and think about how your present yourself to the world.

Then start practicing.  Start talking to women you might not have otherwise- the girl at Starbucks, or the receptionist you walk past every day etc.  Pretty soon you'll get more relaxed and the confidence will start to follow.  There's a lot of mostly good advice on this thread, so read it, think about it, then start putting it to use.

Just remember, most of us guys aren't anything great in the looks department, but we've got some confidence and exude a little personality, humor or intelligence (with some obvious exceptions, LOL).  Hell, I've been bald since I was 30, but I nearly wore my dick down to a nub when I was in my 30's and 40's.  It's not easy for everyone, but everyone CAN get laid.  I'm probably a 6 or 7 in the looks department, but I've dated a lot of 8's and 9's.  I've also dated some very nice 7's too, and some of them fucked my brains out and we had some fun in the process.

When I strike out with a woman, like I did recently with someone I really liked, I just move on. I don't get all depressed about things I can't control.  I obviously wasn't what she was looking for, for whatever reason, so I move on.  It's not always easy for average looking guys, but average looking guys are getting all sort of action everyday and you can too.

Let me give you a real life example of something that happened to me when I was exactly your age (33).  My wife and I had agreed we were going to separate in a week, and I was working in the yard to get some jobs done since it was obvious the house was going to get sold at some point.  I was putting in railroad ties and paving stones to finish a sidewalk and was completely covered with dirt and sand.  It was hot and humid, so everything just stuck to me.  I was wearing my oldest clothes I owned, and I smelled.

At the end of the day I was so hot that I couldn't cool off so I jumped in a convertible I had and drove to the park a couple miles away just to have some wind in my face.  I was leaning against the car looking at the lake, thinking I was all alone and minding my own business, when a woman walked over to me.  She said nice car, we started to talk and she asked if I'd take her for a ride in my car.  I realized this was someone I'd like to get to know a little better, but I was a total mess and I had a pissed-off soon to be ex-wife at home.  I told this woman that I'd really like to get to know her better, and I would love to call her after my wife and I separated the following week.

Now, how many more strikes could I have against me than that?  Well, she gave me her number, and I said I'd give her a rain check on the ride and I called her a week later.  We ended up dating for 4 or 5 months and it was a real lesson to me because all I was doing was standing around being myself. But when the opportunity presented itself, I acted with some confidence and honesty and it all worked out.  It can for you too.

I am one of those "painfully shy" types and lost my virginity to an escort a few months ago (am 33 y.o). I have been seeing several providers since then and my shyness is slowly but surely going away. I am more confident with women and can chat them up randomly. I even recently signed up for a speed dating event ( something I would never had the confidence to do before ). Judging by the way things are going , it seems civvie sex will take a lot of hard work. Probably will take months of chatting up random women, online dating, speed dating , attending friend's parties etc..

But then again I keep reading on this forum how it is so easy as 1-2-3. Am I just being too picky or is civvie sex really hard work for it to be worth it?

Well....it depends.

The good thing about women in their late 20s and 30s is that a LOT of the BS that we dealt with as teens and early 20s is gone.   I had much much much more civvie sex in my mid-20s and 30s than in my teens and early 20s - lost the awkwardness, filled out, got experience. However, most women respond to CONFIDENCE and when I finally stopped giving a **** about every thought or worrying about everything ("Is this the right shirt?  OMG I'm going bald!") and just started being myself I had more fun...plus I wasn't worried about being perfect for every woman, just right for the right woman.    

JUST BE YOURSELF.  (And shower.  And cut your nose and ear hair. And trim your pubes.  And brush your teeth.  Grooming is extremely important).  Don't worry about making mistakes.  There are 3.5 billion women out there.   It's a cliche but you have to like yourself first before anyone else will - that doesn't mean be a narcissist, it means have confidence in YOUR thoughts, your feelings, your likes and dislikes.  Don't try to force a relationship just because a girl is hot.  

As for the sex...she'll let you know she's ready.  Women at your stage of life seem to be more willing to 'cut to the chase' quicker -- plus you should be a lot better now at reading her tea leaves than you were as an 18-year old.  When I think of the ladies that I could have had that were so obviously sending me signals that I couldn't pick up on back then....sigh..

Don't try so hard.  It always happens when you aren't expecting anything.  Just live your life and let the chips fall where they may.

good luck.

There's no easy answer to this.  I've had a lot of civvie sex (two wives, lots of girlfriends in between and a seven-year period where I was seeing providers at least once a week).  I have to say that I had more consistent great sex with providers than civvies, though there've been a few great ones.  But you're right about civvie sex taking lots of hard work.  The whole dating thing repulses me and I suck at it.  So I'm much happier contacting a provider and having and honest transaction and a fun time.  I have a lot of respect for providers and have always enjoyed the human side of them, not just the sex.  Depending on what kind of a person you are, the provider/player relationship can be very fulfilling, within its obvious limits.  Put another way, in my life (I'm almost 65 but still horny), I love my wife and want her to be my true best friend with whom to grow old.  But until my cock falls off, I'll always want to see providers.  The best of them are completely addictive.  Confused yet?  Point is, it's different for everybody so you've got to know yourself and what makes you feel best.  I would take it slow with civvie sex and relationships.  Don't push it. Let it happen naturally.  In the meantime, keep seeing providers and discover your freak flag and how to fly it.  Everybody's got one, and tapping into it is like grabbin' the gold ring.

That's what fucks you up.

Just be yourself, man. It's cool you're seeing providers, and they can certainly break you from your shell.

Have a good time. Whether it's with pros or civvies. It'll all fall into place for you.

Just think, a year from now, you'll be wondering WTF you were so worried about!

Ugly women.  There you go; that's it in a nutshell.  As long as I can remember, there's been a homely gal with her eye on me, and I almost always resisted.  Occasionally I'd get a bit shitfaced and go for it, only to want to gnaw my arm off in the morning.  I once worked with a guy that was forever getting laid, and one day I got a look at his prize.  She looked like the girl that closed the bar on Halloween.  For most of my life, my problems with dating have been centered around my overly selective taste in women.  In fact, the lady that I've been pursuing on the civvie side of things for a while (I just did the math...sigh) is completely out of my league.  If I could only settle for her uglier sister (don't think she really has one), I'd be living happily ever after, but nope can't do it.  So, I'll continue to bang my head against a wall, when I should be out getting my johnson stretched.

So son, in conclusion...ugly women.  They need loving too, just not from me.

And I ain't talking about your johnson...

Getting civie sex is relatively easy for me, BUT -- it wasn't always easy.

Women are terra incognita -- unknown territory -- whose mind can never be completely understood by man. The sexual attraction they exert can be mystifying and more than a little bit intimidating. To complicate matters, any personality flaw that exists in men, also exists in women -- but their superior deception skills make those traits more difficult to discern. Furthermore, they can be very unsettling and arouse levels of emotion outside the realm that you even knew existed. So they can be scary.

Furthermore, because sex is so intensely personal, fear of rejection can be a powerful deterrent because it feels like you are being devalued as a human being -- and there is a population of women out there that absolutely delights in rejecting those they deem "unworthy" and even laugh about it.

BUT -- don't let them intimidate or scare you. They are made of flesh and blood and often any perceived cruelty is a way of covering their own insecurities. Women are a lot more vulnerable to you than they like to think, and seducing a woman is as easy as pie provided you know how to pick your targets. Once you get good at it, they'll never even imagine the seduction was yours, and will believe it was all their idea.

It does NOT take months of chatting up women to get lucky. All it takes is identifying a woman vulnerable to your particular charms and learning a bit about how to talk to women. I have been laid MANY times on first dates by impatient civies.

Instead of looking forward to this with terror and making it look like work; you may benefit from the approach that I took easing into civie dating when I was 30. (I was newly divorced from the first lady I had ever kissed, so knew nothing about dating and women. On top of that I owned a couple of businesses and had a full plate.) I looked at it as a learning experience, almost as a scientific experiment. I viewed every rejection as a learning opportunity, and as a lady who had done me a tremendous favor in keeping me free for a woman who would recognize my worth. I tried all kinds of stuff from the simple to the crazy.

Here's one example of an approach. I was working in one of those office buildings with a mezzanine and a little store inside. I noticed the super-hot woman go in. I noticed that she bought an apple. Pretty soon, over a few days, I noticed a pattern. Every day at a certain time, she bought an apple. Meanwhile, every so often I'd run across her and just give her a preoccupied nod.

Well guess what happened? One day when she went to buy her apple, the clerk handed her the (which I had purchased for her previously) apple with a small box that I gave to the clerk which contained a bottle of Heinz ketchup, my business card, and just one word written on the back of the card: Anticipation. (This played on some famous ketchup ads.)

I just happened to run into her a couple of hours later, and she asked if that was me, I acknowledged that it was me; but said I couldn't chat with her right then -- but maybe she could call me at 3 o'clock?

She called, I setup a date, and I literally got laid that night.

Another time, there was this bank teller I thought was divine, so I introduced myself by having flowers with a card delivered to her at work. Do I have to tell you that it is a *big deal* when a lady gets flowers at work? I included my name, but she had no idea how to get hold of me, so she had to wait for my next appearance. Meanwhile, the fact I had done something stereotypically "romantic" caused her co-workers to predispose her favorably to receptivity. When I walked into the bank next time, it was like a hush of anticipation fell across the place. I chose her as my teller, handed her my transaction and a nice pink card attached to a box. The box contained walnuts and some dried dates. The card said "Would you enjoy a date with a nut?" Turns out she had already picked out a place in anticipation of my asking.

What I'm saying is -- don't sweat it. Have FUN. The worst case scenario is some lady -- or two or twenty -- rejects you.

But now let me tell you something you should find useful.

There was a study done in NYC in which very average looking guys would ask women (who weren't wearing wedding rings) for sex at random. These are just average looking guys. Not ostentatiously wealthy or anything.

You know what happened? Fully TEN PERCENT of the women asked AGREED TO SEX RIGHT THEN AND THERE!!!

That's just average guys asking out random women. If you pick women you think will be receptive and just have some fun, your batting average will be way better than 10%.

Go read some books on the topic, but above all don't sweat it. Have some fun!

Civie sex is great, it is worth it, and once you get the hang of it -- it's fun. You are young, reasonably well-heeled and a decent looking specimen. Likely the only reason you haven't been laid is your own fears.

As the slogan goes ... Just Do It!

If you want to be happy...(follow the link below)

So take notes:

I was 24 years old and not getting any so a friend recommended a therapist.  The only thing holding me back was me.  I insisted on being a "nice guy".  Gals love nice guys, but they will never have sex with them because then they won't be so nice anymore.

So:

Stop standing in line for gals.  When you stop standing in line for them, they will start standing in line with you.

Be a bit arrogant.  It's sexy.

Don't care whether they will like you or not.  They won't really care that much about you anyways, they just want some sex too.

That's the nub of it anyways.  When I started to finally get this straight, I had more nooky than I ever dreamed of.  

Now the bad news:

It's very hard to handle the psychological stuff that goes on with Civie sex.  Either you end up feeling hurt, hurting, or married.  All three happened to me.

My therapist told me early on:  "Be careful what you wish for, it may come true."

It did.

Stick with providers for now.  It's easy and uncomplicated.

As we often like to say:  We don't pay you to come, we pay you to leave.

So true, so true.

I would not put bars in the same category as clubs! While I think that women can become extremely "cunty" in a night club, I do not necessarily attach the same stigma to the bar scene! Although bars can be very different in terms of their allure, ambiance and popularity, they are generally a place to go to in prelude to go clubbing. In a night club, the rule of Jungle applies, i.e, "survival of the fittest" These days to get noticed in a club, you ought to splurge several $hundreds$ to several $thousands$ (depending on the location) on getting a table with several bottles and then you'll probably get the typical club scene moochers, stripper types and some younger P4P wannabes sucking you dry.

Woman put up much higher barriers when in clubs and if you come across a gaggle of them, they just want to tease, do some "dirty dancing" with their "girls", act out their fantasies, get shit faced and most probably end up  barfing on the side of the pavement!!! The success rate of getting civvie sex from a night club for an ordinary guy with ordinary looks and means, is very limited. The bar scene can be very different to the preceding description and if you hon your skills, move on quickly from the "dead-beats" and not splurge on free drinks for every woman who you say hello to, the chances or hooking up (later in a few days) are very much higher than the night club scene

In contrast to Radcow, I would not discount bar scenes as a good hook up source, but YMMV

I could be totally missing the mark here, but I don't think that I am.  

I'm guessing seeing a provider feels good, but really isn't what you really want.  What you really want is an honest to goodness girlfriend.  I'm with you buddy.  Providers can fill in the gaps and you can meet some fantastic girls, but the bottom line is they're there because you are compensating them for their time.  

Obviously you're pretty rejection sensitive.  I feel you.  Here's the thing, getting shot down happens to everybody.  The first time I got dumped (I was a late bloomer like you--lost the V card in Amsterdam after college--imagine being stoned out of your gourd and doing it for the first time with someone who barely speaks english in a foreign country....very surreal...but I digress) a buddy told me, "Welcome to least exclusive club in the world constantly accepting new members, the broken hearted."  That made me feel better.  What you're going through is part of life for everyone.  Rejection is not an indictment of you or anything about you.  As trite as it sounds, you have to think of it as their loss.   If you feel good about what you have to offer someone than keep putting yourself out there like you're starting to do.  You can't get a hit if you never swing the bat.  

Baby steps are a good thing, don't think you have to get laid by date 3 or have to find a girlfriend within the first couple of dates you go on.  Go one some dates, the more you go on the better you'll get it and the less you'll care if it doesn't work out.  If you've got a date with a different girl on Friday it's not that big of a deal if the date on Tuesday doesn't go that well, right?  

Is it worth it?  Why do people go on match.com, go on dates with total strangers, and do it bunches of times just to find someone they have chemistry with?  Because it's in our DNA to want to find a partner.  

So rock out with your cock out, homeboy.  Go get 'em!  And if you're in a slump maybe a provider can help you break the streak, but remember it's not the same thing.  A girlfriend experience can be awesome, but it is not a girlfriend!

Best of luck buddy

No sure I was comparing bars and clubs and I agree they are not the same for atmosphere or prices, LOL. It's my personal preference not to deal with women who are inebriated in order to score. There is nothing worse than kissing a woman with stale alcohol on her breath. The OP might have success in bars as you suggest, but he's also more likely to catch the claps.

It can be supremely easy and supremely difficult. All at the same time. You can use any other adjectives you like such as rewarding, PITA, etc.

One thing it is for sure. To do it long term it is work. Whether the work is ultimately rewarding or not is up to you.

pussy to be had.  I wish I were in my 30's again!

...you want to put into something worthwhile.

Participating in this "hobby" is analogous to going to a restaurant (whether you're going to McD's or the Ritz is another topic). You can go to a restaurant, sit back and enjoy the experience, with someone else doing most of the heavy lifting.

Establishing a civvie relationship is more like learning to shop, cook and ascertain the finer points of nutrition and wine service, as well. Yes, there's a lot more work involved by you and quite a learning curve -- thus the 50% divorce rate in this country. But when it's right, it's among the most satisfying things I've ever experienced, something that is more lasting and deeply felt over a longer period. The good part is that you get to choose what works best for you -- and that can change over time. Sometimes I like to cook and eat at home; other times, I prefer going to a nice restaurant.

Mind you, when it goes south, there's nothing worse either -- so you pays your money and you takes your chances, in both venues. It's all part of the learning experience that we call life and the human condition.

Spreak for yourself I am in my 60's can not go to the store with my wife. I have such wonderful conversations with the "Hot" clerks, my wife gives me shit all the way home. I am a late bloomer, the hobby has given me the confidence I never had when younger so I enjoy the attention especially on a return trip when they greet me by name and don't even notice my wife.

I can hear her boiling now. I have fun wondering if they would join me for a drink if she wasn't with me.

as old Blue Eyes used to croon.

Buying the ingredients is like meeting at a singles bar.

Preparing the meal is like making out and foreplay.

Eating the meal is like intercourse.

Cleaning up the dishes, pots and pans?

That's like dealing with the "issues" that invariably have to be dealt with in a LTR.

The hobby is like all of the above minus the pots and pans.  (If done right, I suppose.)

Yes, MrF, but when we get into our 70s and our dicks fall off we are going to have to find an entirely different kind of provider to change our Depends...

What's my excuse?!

But I get carded, still, and I LOVE flirting with the ladies!

Don't go out much, unless it's meeting with someone.

Which reminds me, gonna meet a hobby brother for beers tomorrow and we have a good time with the
'help' as they saunter by.

I may be off base here, and I'm relatively new to the hobby,  but I've found that the biggest difference is that civvie sex is two way. It's generally not rushed and there is no clock-watching, so you take your time, and focus on her pleasure as well, which you would generally want to.

P4P is different: you're getting kicked out of there after an hour, so you'd better make sure you do what you enjoy and get your own rocks off. DATY (for example) I would normally do in civvie street - and for her, although I'd generally enjoy it. That said, if I do it in the hobby it's solely because I want to. If she doesn't get there, then it's a shame, but she's getting paid. This isn't love, and we're all adults here... her decision on seeing me again or not isn't going to depend on how mind-blowing the sex is, it's what's in the envelope.

As a relatively unrelated aside, I've found this gets more confusing in the BDSM scenario. I like submissive women, but civvie, would take responsibility for their pleasure in a way that I'm not really able to do in the hobby, because an hour is an hour, and how responsible should I feel for the pleasure of someone who is being paid to be there? That's still one I need to figure out...

Now this, I get...my difference being that my pleasure is, at least in large part, in trying to please my partner.  Even if she's faking it, I want her to make me believe my efforts to turn her on are working.  It's just part of the rush.  It's the way I'm built.  If anyone's not built that way, that's fine, too.  But the best providers do get that, I think.  DATY and DATO are a big, big part of what I'm paying for. Like you, I'm very new to this, at least in its modern iteration, having been away for about 17 years!  Isn't that kind of like being re-hymenized?  Thanks to the person who popped my cherry yesterday!  You Know Who You Are!

With the hobby, we get what we want without complication, as long as the thing we want is regarded more as a comodity than an experience.

With civie sex, the experience is not so much a comodity but a mutual work of art between two people, and more often celebrated for its failure than success.

So, do we go for the safe comodity of the hobby, or attempt to beat the odds with the civie world?

I've come to except the former, but still gaze longingly at the latter.

It's the this, that and the other syndrome described on a famous Seinfeld episode.  We are all more or less comfortable with the this and that (friendly relating and sex).  It's the "that" that trips us up.  It's either going to be an envelope or a lot of difficult work to sustain a true functioning relationship.

Like anything else, what we get is about equal to what we put into it.

I REALLY hate old conundrums!  The other night I stepped on a used conundrum and it was gross!  Eeeeew!