Even though Coalition forces are still busy mopping up the remnants of Saddam's  scattered forces, they have just found 20 missles with Chemical Weapon Warheads in Iraq!

http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1223246

And this from NPR, not your usual Conservative mouthpiece!

I wonder if any of the UN crowd will now admit they were wrong?

Well stated Nicole, and thanks for the book references.

This is a long term issue that will require decades of patience, steps forward and numerous setbacks.  At some point we will reach a reasonable accord with the Middle East.  I have faith that the ability of people to get information in todays society will lead them to realize that they are all too often being manipulated in the name of religion.

Remember, those remnants number about 30,000 Baath party regulars who have run that country for 30 years.  'Mopping them up' is not a simple nor totally useful act.   A   turbulent and perhaps violent period for that country is about to begin, and I can't imagine a more troubled organization to administer it (other than relief efforts) than the UN.   Let's hope for the best, I personnaly hope our army runs it for 1 year minimum.  Order is the thing IRAQ needs most right now, not more French politicizing.

and on a lighter note:

 U know the world is crazy whent the best rapper is white, the best golfer is black, the tallest basketball player is Chinese, teh swiss own the America's cup.    .... and the Germans don't want to go to war!

"Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America" by  Yossef Bodansky? The director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare is Josef Bodansky.  Maybe you confused one for the other.

I saw an excerpt on MSNBC a couple of days ago, where one of the imbeds was interviewing some of the Marines that raided an ammunitions dump in Basra.  When asked where most of the weapons seemed to come from, the Marine replied, "Jordan... and France."  I didn't see the piece rolled again for the rest of the day, or any time since.  I guess that Marine didn't get the memo not to mention where the ammunitions were coming from....

I guess that explains to some degree why France and Russian weren't very eager to get involved in the fray.  What's next?  German-supplied chemical weapons?

BJ, Palm Beach
[email protected]

...both sides for generations. War is REAL GOOD business for these people.

Middle Ages were warmer than today, say scientists:
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/06/nclim06.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/06/ixhome.html

I heard from ABC News that it is likely what they have found is pesticide.  Also, Rumsfeld in his press conference in the morning did not claim this was the smoking gun, rather suggested a wait and see attitude.  Driving home in the evening, I heard the same from NPR.

But, that goes to show you that NPR has indeed turned out to be the mouthpiece of Conservatives.

One of the outcome of this war will be every little country now will develop, steal, or buy weapons of mass destruction in a hurry to effectively defend against us in case we decide to invade.

Next, let's watch the parade of countries declaring to be nuclear powers.  This is called the "Newton's Third Law of Motion" for every action there is an equal and opposite  reaction.

Now, I take bets for identifying the first country to make the declaration!

Imported weapons to Iraq in 1973-2002
http://www.xanga.com/item.asp?user=dissidentfrogman&tab=weblogs&uid=14915553

When one third of French want Saddam Hussein, a tyrant, dictator, gross violator of human rights who gassed innocent civilians, to win the war http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,929357,00.html , hence would keep the Iraqi people under the same tyranny for over 3 decades; something is wrong with the country that proclaimed universal human right.  They have lost their way.  Just like de Villepan refused to say he wanted US-UK to prevail in this war when asked.  No wonder Le Pen got to challenge Chirac in the last election.  What a shame!!!

Iraqi Oil and French politics:
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/003229.html#003229
TotalElf’s giant contract with Iraq:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030407/opinion/7edit.htm

Maybe you will feel better after reading this WSJ article suggesting it is a wrong idea to wage trade war with France: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003311

matter what US do.  Similarly, criminals will continue to commit crimes whether or not there is a crack down on criminal activities.

BTW, it was Dana Lewis of MSNBC along with a CNN reporter with their embedded unit 101st Airborne Division who reported on the speculation about those drums being part of biological weapon. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/07/international/worldspecial/07CND-CHEM.html .  NPR along with the 1st Marine Division reported on missiles equipped with Sarin and Mustard gas: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47645-2003Apr7.html .

NPR will never be a mouthpiece of Conservatives.  I guess you have not heard enough of their broadcast.  Jumping on a developing story is a journalistic impulse - those loaded warheads could still contain biological weapons.

-- Modified on 4/8/2003 1:20:03 AM

vast Right Wing conspiracy we keep hearing about.

thanks for your post Nicole.

Is anybody wondering why Saddam did not use WMD against US forces, if he had so many of them?

if you take your sources from UK newspapers, well known France haters ...

And doesn'it it occur to you that maybe, just maybe, if all France had been interested in was oil like you imply for TFE, it would have been better off siding with the US and sharing the spoils of war once it was over?

The US sells weapons to whomever buys them, and not all are glorious democraties - Saudi Arabia for a start.

and have a look at this nice article to boot.

Very possibly, Saddam hasn't used his Chemical weapons because he was (is) hoping that the Arab world would come to his rescue.  Using Chem/Biological weapons would be a bad PR tool at this moment.

Or, he may well have ordered them used and his field officers have refused to follow that order.  They are the ones on the front who know this war is lost, contrary to Saddam's Information Minister who stands on top of a Baghdad Hotel and tells the world they are kicking our asses while in the background you can see the American Flag flying from the Presidential Palace!

These Field Officers know they will be tried for War Crimes and most likely be hung if they use them.

However, I sense a disbelief of Saddam's possession of WMD in your post, and it makes me question your sincerity.

...at this point, Iraq has been using their propoganda to make themselves martyrs.  Had they used chemical weapons early on, it would have validated the war against them.

Besides which, I don't think they ever really took us seriously, until it was too late.  Their command/control lines were heavily damaged early on before there was the ability to get that level of organization.  The misinformation to their own public was an attempt to keep the morale of their own troops up, and the populace down, in a time of disconnection.  Remember, until this time, the chemical weapons had been stashed safety away in hiding from the UN inspectors for quite some time.  To get the to the ready and use them took operational and logistical organization they simply didn't have.

BJ, Palm Beach, FL
[email protected]

Obviously, you have not been listening to NPR recently ...

Then you need to explain to us, why at the cost of $2B/day, according to Senator McCain, we have invaded Iraq.  So, no matter what we do, these awful weapons are going to be developed by others.  I hate to break this up to you, Cruise Missiles cannot solve complex problems.  It takes complex brain, creativity, and determination.

Some of the today's conservative, are so extremist, that even today's NPR, looks lefty to them.  Here is a quote from your spiritual leader, Mr. Lott:

"We voted for Strom Thurmond when he ran for presidency. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either"

I wish you enlighten us by what Lott meant, stating "these problems!"

OJ was innocent and I would bet my left testicle that you voted for Gray Davis!

The search for Chemical/Biological Weapons hasn't even started yet!  The fact that American Soldiers stumble upon these stockades notwithstanding.

Did you also read that one of the barrels was leaking and that three Soldiers received skin blistering before they donned their NBC suits?  That skin blistering is symptomatic of Mustard Gas!

The fact that the Pentagon wants to return the substances to DC to test before releasing documented evidence is prudent.

I have to agree with Counterpointe, your "NPR is the mouthpiece of Conservatives" is hysterical!

...any type of boycott, etc., upon the French and German trade.  It's something I'm just rolling my eyes about.  Politics are politics, though, but I'm wondering what the world will have to say once we start going after North Korea after this....

BJ, Palm Beach

Nicole:

I keep hearing that France and Germany warned us about 9/11, so I ask in what way?  Did they tell us that 19 madmen were going to fly commercial airliners into the WTC, Pentagon and White House?  I would find that very hard to believe.

In my wildest imagination I could not have foreseen this attack.  We as Americans value human life and could not conceive such an attack on the innocent.  Even after 9/11, look at the care we have given to not harm civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan.  To say that we were warned does not mean that steps were not taken to defend ourselves, we as a people just haven't foreseen such evil.  Like Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto said after attacking Pearl Harbor, "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant!"  So they have.

As far as boycotting France and Germany, it is just exercising our freedom of choice.  What I would like to see is any American who had planned to visit France or Germany this year to cancel.  That would make a statement.

BTW, I am stimulated by intelligent women!  I'll be calling soon!

Thanks for the link.  

When I rerun the events following 9/11 in my mind, I keep seeing Benjamin Netanyahu on some news show offering his deepest sympathy, but also mentioning that now we know how the people of  Israel feel with the incessant terrorists hits.

It seems our intelligence community lets us down big time.  It also seems that Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil remembered those words "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant!"  Even if we had forgotten our vulnerability.

I am hopeful that once Iraq is set free, we will see the birth of a Free Press in that region.  It has happened in Afghanistan and most probably will in Iraq.  All of the news sources in the mid east are so biased against us that most Arab people actually believe that Saddam is winning in Iraq.  Once the truth gets out and a large part of that truth is going to be our care for protecting civilians during the war and our humanitarian aid to the people of Iraq, my hope is that opinions will begin to change.

Look, I agree, I think boycotts are somewhat ridiculous.  I use very few European products anyway.  I have been to France, nice place, the people however were assholes and smelled like them too.

If you have flown recently on any of the majors, you know the service is terrible.  I recently flew to North Carolina which took me from Ontario at 7:00 am to Dallas, had to transfer fast, no lunch, set on the runway at Dallas for 2 hours and then on to NC, arriving at 6:15 PM.  NO FOOD SERVICE, it was Eastern and the flight attendants were caustic.  If they really want to build their business, maybe they should look at how they treat people.

I am one of those who still thinks this war is a bad idea - not because IRAQ doesn't have WMD.  I believed they did.  Not that I didn't think he is a scum bag who I'd personally shoot. Bad guy, hope he's dead with the rest of his crowd.  But becuase it is a BAD IDEA for America to get drunk on its power after spending $250B annually on military (or whatever it is)and go it alone just because we can.  Remember, Bush's initial statements about this in the fall was "we can do it alone."  That premise drove all the window dressing that followed.

We could have gotten the whole world to have done whatever made sense if we had taken Bush's "humble" foreign policy campaign approach.  We could have set a series of real milestones that Huessein would not have met and then gone in united.  This is the problem: the world is too interconnected to be so isolated, and Bush's admin is building a legacy of this.

They question is: what is Rumsfield gonna do next?

the US policy of supporting dictators against Communists clients of the Soviets in the cold war or the US alliance with USSR against Nazi Germany.  Sure, US is no angel.

However, that doesn't divert the questions of why France, Germany and Russia continued to supply arms, infrastructures for WMD AFTER the invasion of Kuwait and the Gulf war.  There is no need to use Iraq against Iran.  Maybe the so call allies are doing that to use Iraq against US and UK; just like US, Russia and the West was using Iraq against Iran.

What do you say about the 30+ % of French wishing Saddam to prevail over US?

Here is more detail about the TotalElf scandal: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2926335.stm

I am not trying to beat a dead horse.  However, the $50 billion contract awarded to TotalElf by Saddam had a major impact on why Chirac is adamantly against the US-UK position.  Since there were lots of illegal payments to French political parties and politicians by Elf, it won’t go far to draw the conclusion that there is something fishy in the air about Chirac’s behavior in the UN episode.

argument about managing the climate for the greater good.

There are various arguments about the natural releases of methane did more to contribute to the green house gases than human activities.  Some of them came from renown scientists: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521010683/ref%3Dase%5Fhttpwwwandrec-20/103-5097934-6782267 .  Of course the dogmatic environmentalists refuse to counter his arguments with research, stats and science.  Instead, they resorted to name calling.

JMHO, most Green party types use the Global warming theory as a way to limit growth and blamed industrial human activities.  I think it is better to have a honest debate and acknowledge the unknown instead of fast jumping to disastrous quick fixes that could do more harm like the Kyoto protocol.

NPR is definitely left leaning - When is the last time they gave equal time to conservative commentators in their programs.

In case you don't know, I am no conservative - I am a moderate Republican, just like there are some in the Democratic Party that are not liberals - Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana, Congressman Horald Ford Jr., etc.

If not for US cruise missiles and air bombings, Europeans would still be watching on the sidelines on the matter of Kosovos.  Sometimes, as a last resort, the only way to solve matters is through the use of arms.

The problem with Saddam is that he wants WMD as a mean to intimate his neighbors.  He has a deep seated hatred for US after the Gulf War.  He has the oil wealth to support his ambition.  He has weak Arab neighbors.  All those make him a dangerous and imminent threat.  Egypt has no oil – it is still under the fold of US because of the $2-3B yearly aid.  Similarly Syria has no oil, plus its leaderships over the years are very cautious; could be subjected to external pressure.  Libya had been scared off after the US bombing in 1986.  They are far from the center of Arab oil so its effects would be far less.  Gadhaffi is not as ambitious and brutal as Saddam.  He wants subtle influence not direct confrontation.  Libya can be contained.  Saudi Arabia is still a pseudo ally.  They don’t have enough men and have too much to lose to pose as a military threat.  (Their support for radical Islam is another matter.)

All those Islamic troubled countries might face internal pressure to reform if Iraq became a democracy and vastly improved their people’s lives.

North Korea is being dealt with by pressures on and from China.  Iran’s youths are yearning for democracy.  It is a delicate issue that had to be dealt with influence and diplomacy.

There are only 3 other troubled countries besides North Korea, Iran and Pakistan that could post potential threat – Nigeria, Venezuela and Indonesia.  Nigeria is still too far away from the major centers of the world.  They are currently not threatened by any neighbor to go the WMD route.  Venezuela is still in the early stage of becoming a dictatorship.  Maybe it will revert back to democracy in a few years.

Indonesia is a big trouble spot that could spread to Malaysia, Singapore and Australia.  So far, there are too many internal squabbles for them to focus on external matters.

It is hard to put the Genie back to the bottle.  That is why the Anti-Ballistic Missile Defense is so important.  North Korea currently has the capability to strike Alaska.  In the very near future, it could hit CA and the West Coast.  In a few years, it could strike anywhere in US.  Its technology could spread to anyone.

This is no longer a time where US can rest on its laurels.  I am glad that US had the foresight to spend the money on developing the Patriot Pac-III, the predator and the JDAMs.  Otherwise, our causalities would be much higher.

You can call me a war hawk but I am no follower of Trent Lott.


-- Modified on 4/8/2003 8:35:53 PM

Unfortunately, it seems like the French publics and political establishments decide to use this opportunity to assert themselves as the leader of EU and turn it into a counterweight against US. (That's the official aspiration of France, proclaimed frequently by French leaders in public.)

This could be done a lot better by France and Germany, just like Europe watched peaceful when US became a power in the 19th century.  Their reach for the multi-polar world in this time of maximum US vulnerability is extremely unfortunate.

Just like Charles Krauthammer said, a counterweight is not an ally.  That's all.

lost a new generation of Iranians.

China is starting to exert pressure to North Korea: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-NKorea-Next-Step.html .  There is a story a few days ago about China's oil supplies to North Korea was cut off for a few days due to "pipeline problems": http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/1854444 .  China definitely don't want a nuclear Japan.

France has seen Iraq as being their pivot point to expand their influence in Middle-East for the past decade and longer. They've also acted as a kind of "Country Lawyer" for Saddam and Iraq. Saddam over the past twenty years or so has been France's personal gas-pump jockey.  Chirac is currently surfing the highest ratings he has ever seen his years as president specifically because of his position against the United States. Up to this point his popularity was dropping faster than prices on tech stocks.

Don't forget about those Russian "OilField" workers that left before the coalition swept across the border, or the German built 100' deep bunkers under the palaces and high-end residences, or the French exocet missiles, the Russian Seersucker missiles, night optical devices, tanks, APC's, etc.

Here's an interesting link to an article from July of 2001 about Chirac, and then Iraq's oil dealings with France and Russia.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_30/c3742082.htm

and another interesting article from DECEMBER 7, 1999 with some good background information on France and Russia's relationship with Iraq.

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1999/msg00786.html

and yet another interesting link:

http://www.e-thepeople.org/a-national/article/15222/view?viewtype=best

HPG



-- Modified on 4/8/2003 9:52:04 PM

Victoria.  *** Correction: Palmerstone was officially a Whig PM.  His protege Gladstone was the Liberal Party PM. (I guess Whig became the Liberal Party during the later stage of Palmerstone's career.) ***

It is to my misfortune that I am an Anglophile Republican while most of the females in my life and those who I adored are Francophile with liberal leanings.  

Well, I don't blame them.  Cartiers, Chanel, Paris and French cuisine are all wonderful indeed, not to mention French women.

I guess those of us who are inept with poetry resorted to study history and biographies instead.

All these will pass - after all, as UK Foreign Minister Jack Shaw said in UN: UK is the oldest democracy found by the French.  Great people like the French still have universal idealism in their hearts.  It is just hard for proud people to be second fiddle to someone else.

The new book by Robert Kagan - Of Paradise and Power is a must read about the evolving relationships between US and Europe.  Check out the summary http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400040930/qid=1049863561/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-5097934-6782267?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
and the reviews: http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9E02E6D8173FF936A35750C0A9659C8B63

God bless.  Have peace.  Good night and sweet dreams.

GC


-- Modified on 4/8/2003 10:14:45 PM

want to merely install another Shah-like figure, only to see him overthrown.  When I say "Iran is next", I don't mean that we will invade in full force, but that we will dominate the country so much that they will be afraid to oppose us.  Same result.

yes there is a disbelief of Saddam's possession of WMD. That's exactly why my post meant. You do not need to question my sincerity, I usually say what I think. I do not think he has so many WMD otherwise he would have used them. Do you understand it better now? Now question my sincerity if you want.

excuse me, where did you see that France continued to sell arms to Irak after the Gulf war ? It is not apparent in the links you posted.

As far as oil is concerned, I think clearly that if France was as backstabbing and sneaky and cheap as you make it sound, it would have been better off cutting a deal with Bush, exchanging its vote and influence at the Security Council against the oil deals it had with Iraq. Becasue at the end of the day it was obviosu that if the war takes place the US is going to win. So a good policy would be to side with the winner not the losers.

Why 30% of french people are for Iraq against the US? Well, first of all they regard the US as the agressor of a country - run by a tyrant admittedly but a country all the same. And after all the French bashing in the US and UK, do you still think French people are happy with the US and the UK? France stated its position as is its right, and in return it has been abused and insulted. France has opposed the US. It should not be considered as a crime. But apparently it is. Insult and abuse and threats of boycott are not going to win you a lot of sympathy. So I am actually surprised that still 70% of French people support the US/UK.

This is rattling around in the back of my mind but I can't access it.  Who was it that said basically new alliances will always emerge to act as countervailing forces if a void is created that disturbs the previously existing equillibrium.  

Perhaps I didn't state that well, but the reference is that with the decline of the Soviet Union as a world power, it was inevitable that our (former?) allies in Europe (or someone else) would realign themselves to create a new opposing force to the US.  New "blocks" are created as old ones fade away and the net result is always one of two large opposing forces- usually equal and opposite even if it takes 10 small countries to balance the one large one.

BTW, if it was me that said that, then I must be smarter than even I think,  but I'm afraid someone else proposed that theory first.  Was it Metternich?  I'm just blanking out.

And yes, Spectator, it's the fate of many of the men on this board that were born with the "wrong" set of talents, that we must make do as best we can.  Fortuantely, we found the source of beautiful women we seek here on TER.

-- Modified on 4/9/2003 6:11:08 PM

aligning itself with weak countries in the European continent to challenge the strong ones ever since the time of William the Conqueror.

I am no historian but I believe the conscious design of the so called "Balance of Power" policy was adopted by all British political parties during the time of William of Orange and Queen Anne against Louis XIV (The time of Duke of Marlborough – John Churchill).  It had been practiced by Cardinal Richelieu against the Holy Roman Empire in the continent but historians usually attributed his maneuvers as Machiavelli in nature, not a formal policy.  It became a widely proclaimed continent policy in Europe after the Congress of Vienna – hosted by Prince Metternich.  Because of the success of the Congress of Vienna in limiting conflicts in Europe after previous centuries of wide scale warfare, many people attributed that as the “Balance of Power” policy and associated it with Metternich.

The rising of the economic power of Japan in the 70s – 80s, the adoption of euro were greeted with benign acknowledgement by the US.  It is not always the case to have opposing groups emerged as counterweights to each other.  For a few hundred years, Roman Empire had no organized opposing groups.  Over 2 thousand years, China had no organized opposing neighbors – Mongolia was a singular invasion force.  Since the Renaissance, western scientific ideas have been adopted all around the world among different ethnic groups.

There might be countries in the future that could have bigger impact on the world with more dominant economic, cultural or military power (I doubt about the last ones.) – potential candidates at this time: China or a United States of Europe (under the banner of EU) if it could be pulled off.

However, I doubt that any future country would be so generous, upheld such a transforming principle (Liberty, prosperity and the pursuit of happiness) in its heart and practice and willing to pay and sacrifice for that than United States of America.

thanks for your support Nicole, it's tough being french out there. You analyse the situation perfectly and look at it from the other side, that's something not many people do. I would love to meet you one day over wine and cheese to discuss further!

Enjoy you reading and "girlie stuff", and have fun.

Magiost

Local climactic conditions can "overwrite," as we say in the computer biz, the effects of global warming.  If, as some think likely, the Gulf Stream reverses, all of northern Europe will go into a semi-permanent deep freeze.  El/La Nino/a has far more noticible local effects than global warming.  The real, scientific evidence of global warming are based on global averages and only global averages.

The UTTERLY HELLISH winter in the northeastern US (which I missed virtually in its entirity due to being on another of my famous RTW business trips) is despite global warming.  It was due exclusively to more localized phenomena.

If you want to comment on the science, read the science - not the mundane media.

Nicole, I am stunned each time I read one of your posts. What else can I say?

I can take criticism when it comes from you, because you do not mean it in a nasty way, but rather as a result of an analysis. I might disagree with it but I respect it any day.

The present situation is difficult for everybody and it is also emotionnally trying for me, trying to defend France position and honour against all this ugly criticism and insults. I hope it's over soon and we can go back to normal.

I hope one day we can get together and have a nice dinner with some good wine, and discuss about more peaceful things. I'd love that.

Until that time, I wish you the best and will continue to enjoy your posts.

Magiost