I travel on a fairly heavily trafficed road on my way to work.... commute time is about 45 min to 1 hour 30 min each way, each day.  When I find someone tailgating me, I usually put my blinkers on and usually they back off.... this morning, a woman was tailgating me with about 6 inches between the cars....  While I did not put on my blinkers, I thought to myself, "this babe is gonna smash into my car, and she is not even hot!"  well, after about 3 miles of stop and go, she did.  I got out to assess the damage.. (there was none).  She gets out, and immediately says, "I cannot stand this traffic, and because of the traffic, I banged into your car!"  My comment to her, "Because your commute is bad, that is no excuse to hurt me."

This, in general got me to thinking, lots of folks today, because they don't like something that happened to them... they feel free to pass on the "bad stuff"!  Civility.... seems to be missing.... I would have been happier, had the woman stepped out of the car, papers in hand, and said, "I am sorry, there is no excuse for banging into your car, it was my fault."  As it was, there was no harm, I was ok, and my car was ok.... in addition, to pull over would have been to invite even more traffic....

But - civility - admission of making a mistake - really trying to move forward and realizing that events and circumstances may coexist.... but they do not excuse personal responsibility....

Oh, no, I did not call the police.... I simply put my "dad face" on and provided a side of the road lecture.....

so, others,  your thoughts on Civility... I know I am being redundant.... as I commented on this the other day - but I am curious, is this being taught... is so, who teaches it? and how can we get more people educated to it...?  

-- Modified on 9/7/2006 8:17:50 PM

Because as I read your message, I struggled to hold back a "fuck you bizzaro", wanting to say it for one reason only.  Because I'm not suposed to.  But then I remembered the day that I was in that exact spot, except without warning my new car was split into pieces, only to be missing for the next 6 weeks while it was super-glued back together.  So, officially I have remained civil and felt bad for your accident and not flipped you a ceremonial bird.

The lesson:  it's being taught, but like most lessons in school, it's being ignored.  At least by shit-heads like me, LOL

I thought you would have said, it is being taught, but slowly in the "School of Hard Knocks"  

A vette?  you drive a Vette?  hummm.... would have figured you for a Jaguar.... hummmmmmm....

The ideology of "Me" has gone from a motto and fad twenty years ago to an ideology and mantra today.

Have you noticed just how often a person will say, "Hi.  How you doin'?" and then keep on babbling away?  What's the point in even asking?

I hold a door open for people, men and women, young and old alike.  More often than not, a man will say thanks but a woman will just walk through without a second thought, as if this "service" is expected of me and not worth the effort of a thanks.

People also tend to barge in lines more often now, too.  The line is clearly defined, you can see it extending from a register and bending down an aisle, yet a person will step in front of me - and more often than not, it's an older person.

I'd really like to say it's one generation or another, one gender or the other, that's forgetting common manners, but it isn't.  It's our society as a whole.  

And I think it's largely because we're no longer functioning as a society, as a whole.  Extended families are almost a thing of the past.  Nuclear families are disintegrating.  We're becoming isotopic individuals, societies unto ourselves.

I wonder if that's what happened to Greece and to Rome....

Fully concur.
Going with it is the inane question by the checker at the supermarket "have you found everything ok". I usually resist the temptation to answer that precisely in two short sentences of plain English.
And has anybody noticed a correlation between the lack of civility and the use of a language sometimes identified as "they"? Wonder if that comes from regularly drinking diet soda since a study done in Idaho established that laboratory mice fed aspartame (retail brand Equal) failed to learn getting through a maze whereas those getting a sweetness equivalent ration of sucrose (table sugar) learned an identical maze very quickly.

Common cutesy is far from common today.  Me?  I chose to be a gentleman regardless of others lack of politness.

is not confined to young or old, rich or poor, conservative or liberal, Republican or Democrat, male or female, educated or ignorant, smart or stupid, or any other discriminatory denominator you would care to use, it is largely just us.

The funny thing is, the one or two times I have challenged people to remind them that they are being rude, they become embarassed, apologize and act respectful to me.... almost as if I had now assumed the role of their parent... This is true of adults well beyond my age (And I am an old dude...!).  

What caused this erosion?  I suspect that it was a synergistic combination of a number of factors, too many to go into here... but the result is that now, we feel compelled to legislate civility... which is always a poor solution to ensuring socially acceptable behaviour...

Well, at least we have the ladies... and they seem to "get it" or at least the ones on this board do....

Actually, that would've made for a better thread.  Your civility posts over the past few weeks have gotten old.  I've given up on my alias rant, so you can drop this one.  The THREAD IS NOW OFFICIALLY HIJACKED!!!

Yesterday, a couple of women came over to research/interview my 3yr. old son.  One was very hot and showing off massive cleavage.  The other was average looking.  I was courteous to both women in a very gentlemanly way.  I offered them both a drink.  The avg. woman pointed out that she had brought her own water in a sports bottle, which I hadn't noticed.  The hot woman said she'd like a glass of water.  She said from the tap was just fine before I even began to move into action.  Normally, that's all I would've even thought to provide.  I went to the fridge anyway and there were no bottles of water.  I gave her a glass of tap water (which is actually good, I drink it all the time), and then I went and got a bottled water from the garage that was not cold.  I told her that I was putting it in the fridge for her to cool off if she wanted it.  She seemed appreciative.  When they got ready to leave, not only did I help the hot woman pack up, but I retrieved the bottled water.  She seemed very appreciative.  Here's the thrust:  Why was I extra kind to the hot woman?  Was I flirting?  No.  These women commented that they'd both just returned to work from maternity leave.  They knew that I was married and that my wife was upstairs, so I definitely wasn't hitting on her, nor did it appear that way.  Yet, I went out of my way to be extra kind to the hot woman.  After they left, I joked to myself "I wonder if the hot woman wore the low-cut outfit to really do a study on dad's and their responses, and the whole 'let's research the kid thing' was just a cover?"  Seriously, someone ought to do more research along those lines.

Guys, do you find that you go the extra mile sometimes when the woman is hot even though you know there's no possibility of sex?  And ladies, do you find that guys are more apt to do the "extras" when the outfit is a little more revealing?  Extra points for any ladies, that have actually done their own "research" on this matter.

-- Modified on 9/8/2006 7:50:07 AM

There are numerous studies on "attractiveness" and human interaction.  Attractiveness being somewhat subjective.... but there are elements as to what can be used to describe attractiveness in a quantifable manner... the measurements that I am familiar with are symetry of the face; the distance from puple to puple when looking straight on; relative size of features to overall face (eye sockets, nose, forehead, chin, ears, etc.); body to head ratio; fitness etc.  These also come into play in making a "child or baby" more attractive (I mean lets face it, ever smell a non-fresh baby?  or deal with drool?  they have to have something which makes them attractive).... and on and on....

But the bottom line is, the more "attractive" you are, the more likely it is that you will be treated well (ok, ok, there are exceptions - how else do you explain the phenomena associated with BarBra Screechand.... or as I like to refer to her Ms. 'Babs Brolin').  It is reflexive and occurs naturally.... and yes, there are 'tons' of studies on this.... such as who gets hired - the Wharton MBA who is matronly or the "Night school special" business major with the killer bod.... the ex football jock or the braiac who can invent the next big thing....

This also comes into play in salary determination... and yea - I know that these things should not come into play - but they do...  In one major corp that I worked for, it was rumored that you would not rise to the Director level... unless you were at least 6 feet tall..... and know what, every director in the co, that I met, was at least 6 ft tall..... no matter that there were tons of folks who were equally qualified.... go figure.

Oh, and for the record, the lady who hit me, while not hot, was not ugly or unattractive... just not hot.

In Silicon Valley the expression was "below Director level it was sexual harassment, Director and above career enhancement."

In my humble opinion - People are (for the most part) ass holes...

Has society ever considered a "Reproduction License"? Although who gets to hand out the licenses is extremely problematic, it would be a whole new world in about 2 generations

is that I have been hearing it for 30 years. Which generation, exactly, was the one that acted civilly? Remember that the 80s were the "Me" decade. That was a long time ago. The fact is that people were civil only in your imagination and assholes have been with us forever.

It's not a corvette.  Any vehicle, if plowed into with enough force, will splatter quite nicely.  If I remember correctly, it was a Kia that hit me, but it had a mini-van attached to it.

It's not a Jag, but there's one parked right next to mine right now.  Cute, but a crappy A/C in it.

When "Square" meant OK...  you got a "Square meal"  someone looked you "Square" in the eye...  You were "square" with the world... they said "yes sir" and "no ma'm" to their elders.  and adults were addressed as Mr. Mrs. or Miss....

You were considered "as good as your word" and deals were done on a handshake...

You were responsible for yourself... and when things got tough, it was up to you to take care of it....

Honesty and integrity were considered the norm... and lying under oath was considered a punishable crime....  We trusted our government to tell us the truth, because they were actually honest.  '

People achieved high office through hard work, and loyalty... Media researched stories before they went public... and oh yea, most important, getting an education was respected.

Our military were considered heros, cops were referred to as policemen... and they actually were respected- by all.

Doctors treated your illnesses to make you well, and not their boat payment.  And people did not sue for simply falling down.

maybe I lived in Normal Rockwell's town...  where the cokes at the drug store were either flavored with vanilla syrup or cherry syrup while the pharmacist filled your persciption.... when you went to get gas, they actually checked your oil, air pressure in the tires... and wiped the windshield....

yea....   maybe it was only in my imagination...  and Peter Graves took care of Joey on Fury's ranch, Sky King's neice, Penny, could actually fly the Songbird... and the world was safe if only for a couple of years in the early 50's, but Norman captured it well... And I lived there.... if only for a small speck of time....  My thesis?  well, I don't know... and I don't know if I would go back.... even if I could, for the golden age is always the one in which we live.... for some... it is now....

for others... it is the future...

peace....

My folks had two kids, fulfilling their biological and social imperitives.  They fed us, clothed us, sheltered us, and even helped us financially when we absolutely needed it.  But other than that, they had pretty much of a hands-off approach when it came to parenting; the less involved they were in their kids' lives, I think the more accomplished they feel in their lack of knowledge of our lives.  (I think it's the government's equivalent of plausible deniability (g))  Meantime, Mom fills her days with TV and sleep, Dad with work and sleep.  Truly interactive people.

TV pretty much raised me, Classic Star Trek in particular.  Well, that and superhero comic books.  Those were the vacuuous days.  And all that made me the man I am today, sitting here in my room, alone except for my movies and my TV and my computer, with no social life outside of work and the Internet here.  

Yep.  What a life I lead.

Oh boy.

80 years old. Just remember though, that there were Jim Crow laws and separate but equal, women did not have the right to vote and there were no child labor laws. Society was not civil to everyone. That may not matter to you, but it mattered to those who were oppressed and discriminated against.
If you really think that at any point in our history there was a time with no crime or scandal, you truly are delusional. Just because your parents shielded you from the real world as a child does not mean that it was all picnics and daisys.

Jim Crow Laws were the Seperate But Equal Laws, and were in effect, in southern states, from 1876 until 1964.

Women's sufferage was finally granted in all states of the USA in 1920.

Child Labor Reform started in 1910.

So, are you talking about the period between 1876 and 1920?  *grin*

What I think the problem is between your thoughts and the statements of Mr Bizzaro is that where as he is dicussing the acts of individuals towards each other, you are talking about institutionalised behaviors towards groups.

He is speaking of people holding doors, saying "please" and "thank you", and not necessarily thinking themseives superior to all others, or seeming to by their acts and disregard for other people's rights, property, etc.

You are speaking of White member's of Sothern States enacting laws against those of other races, especially African Americans.

Males with the right to vote, not wanting women to have the same right.

Companies taking advantage of workers including children, because no laws were enacted to prevent the acts.

Not saying you are wrong (though your timeline is a bit askew), not saying he is wrong...just saying you are talking about different things...comparing apples and orangutans.

All that said, I do believe it all stems from the same thing...the idea that one is inherantly better than another, the examples you give show certain groups thinking they were superior to another.  The example of lack of civility that Mr Bizzaro gives is about an individual thinking they are superior to all others, their anger supercedeing your safety, their property being of more import than yours, etc.

I think it all comes down to empathy, the ability to recognise that all people feel basically what you do to understand that if you wouldn't like something happening to you, another will also not like it...and because of that refraining from those acts and behaviors.  

As to what happened to civility, I think it like many things became more individualised...instead of the group vs group in the examples given here, it became a person vs person issue.

not pay attention to my wording... First, that was my parents... and yes there were Jim Crow laws.... with "separate but equal" whatever that meant.  But I also said was I imagining a "Norman Rockwell-type society," meaning a fictionalized view of the real world... as it should be...  

That my friends is the beauty of the "great American Experment" as it was called by the framers of the constitution.  Take your example of the Jim Crow laws.... we could change, relatively peacefully - and we did!  The civil rights act of 1964 was passed (and I remember where I was and what I was doing when it passed! Oh, and for historical accuracy the 15th amendmant (1870) made it illegal to bar one from voting based upon race... the 24th amendmant (1964) made the poll tax illegal).  We changed... and sufferage for women was also enacted in 1920 with the 19th amendmant.  

And as long as you brought up child labor laws... please help me understand the "human" condition.... as child labor laws in both the US and in the UK have always been enacted AFTER the laws to protect animals from cruelty is enacted?  Great!

Society is never civil to all.  But is the desire to live in a Norman Rockwell world bad?  Is the desire to have magnanimous treatment of all bad?  and yes, oppression of all sorts bothers me greatly....   especially as we go forward in time... and other leaders say great things to gain our support and encourage us to look away while they undermine our society!  

yea, with respect to picnics and diasys.... you forget, I am the Viet Nam Generation.... and what we endured was anything but a picnic.  Get REAL!  Many who died in that "war?" did NOT volunteer, they were sent to their death, and for those who survived, they came home only to find that the society that they served turned their backs on them...  

For the volunteers who have come after, my sincere thanks to you... as not only do you face the external enemy but also the enemy within.

You should also know that when I use TV shows of yesteryear to illustrate the point, it is because I cannot use reality!  at the same time those shows were airing,  the McCarthy hearings were taking place.  go figure.  "Tail gunner Joe" - who was neither a "tail gunner" nor a  hero.

But to want to live in that world of civility... where the "Cleavers" were your next door neighbors, and when you went to the emergency room, thoughful and kind young Dr. Killdare treated you... and Jim Anderson was your dad's best friend?  where the worst things that you had to worry about was that pesky Eddie Haskle?  

yea.... and we all had a crush on Annette Funicello (our prayers are with her) and Thalia Menninger!

in a Norman Rockwell-like town which just so happens to be the era that Rockwell depicted.

longing for a time that never existed, have at it.