I'll preface this with the fact that its probably nothing new.  But its also not the standard should I date a provider, got too involved kinda thing either...  

I have contemplated posting my thoughts for a while now, because I have felt that I am not the normal "hobbyist" for lack of a better term.  Who knows what that means.  But, I needed to share my thoughts with someone other than myself...

So, in a nutshell, I have seen providers on and off for some time, lets say 2 or 3 years.  Not super frequently, and not repetitively.  More to fill a need than fill a desire I guess.  Generally, it has been a good experience, I've never taken it too seriously, enjoyed it for what it is.  What is strange though, is that somehow many of these relationships have morphed into more than provider / client relationships.  Yes, of course that happens when you sleep with someone...  I got it.  But, in many cases these have become pseudo girlfriend / hook-up / casual relationships and friendships.  

Ok.  All good right?  I mean I'm not complaining - I'm a single guy, no attachments, not looking for anything, and trust me, I'm not Brad Pitt but I aint bad looking either, and I'm charming, its what I do for a living.  But there are plenty of guys who are like that, Im sure.  So its not so much that somehow these relationships have morphed into something more like friends with benefits, but the affect it has had on my normal dating relationships...

As an example, I went out recently with a lovely young lady, super smart and driven, quite attractive, checked all the next date boxes.  And yet towards the end of the date, as I got a text from a provider/friend to meet up, I succumbed to my inner desire for the fun / now / no regrets / no consequences / no expectations.  I was nice, but I simply walked away from a "normal" dating relationship, for something maybe more transient or less commital I guess?  

Maybe this normal, but I started thinking, maybe I just cant date normal girls anymore?  And I am not even a super frequent "hobbyist".  Now, at the same time, I cant ever see myself dating a provider, well, unfair to say ever, but in general, its not what I would do.  So I find myself in this personally strange situation where I have "civilian" dating opportunities and "provider" less-than dating opportunities, but I seem to always choose the later.  

I don't even know if this makes sense, but since this is so personal to me, I havent had an opportunity to share the thought with anyone at all, and finally I needed to at least see if anyone else has had the same feeling - that perhaps they are pursuing something knowingly unattainable, but also unwanted, and not really understanding why...

Thoughts?

See providers is such a wonderful experience, that playing the civie dating game is like going to hamburger when you've gotten used to Filet Mignon.

I'm divorced and in my late fifties, so it's not really an issue for me; but for a young person who wants to hook up and find someone to raise a family with, I can see how that could be a problem.

I really don't know what the answer is except to play the game and know what you're in for.

there are married hobbyists and they have ties that keep tjhem from *dating* providers. Its a huge hidden part of their lives and they are sneaking around to get their fun in.

The single hobbyist is a different story. They don't need to sneak around. A day out in town for a date is not a huge secret, so  its easier to incorperate it into your normal life.
Civie dating has way more head games its more complicated and you are not getting nooky on the first date, and if you do, thats unusual and most is seen as sign of an easy piece of ass. We all like a piece of ass but for some reason if its given away it holds less value to some ppl. Love those double standards right!

Its too easy once you figure out how to navigate this playground to your liking. You want to play just pick up the phone and you have crazy mad variety at your fingertips. You can see a Lady who is a 10 and as long as you are verifiable and a gentleman you are in. AND you are getting Nooky that same night.

On the civie dating scene you could hit on the samje girl or one just as hot all night long in a bar and you are goin home alone most likely...
You may get a date but not thatnight, even after you buy her drink after drink all night long.

Theres no shame in bettin on a sure thing. A paid companion...is exactly that.

In civie dating, whos to say shes good in bed, theres no reviews no guarantee. You may Never get a blow job out of her. She may hate sex or be very uncomfortable in her own skin.
Here you just read her reviews if it fits your needs and desires you know what you are getting.

I see quite a few single men, its more like dating with them. Its dinner a night out a ball game or what ever. They have the time to play the p4p dating game and it doesn't matter who sees them out with me, they answer to noone.

Tere is no such thing as the *Typical*hobbyist, The guys here on Ter are only a very small fraction of those who play here. Most of my clients are NOT Ter members and I like them better actually. They are less jaded and not so engrained into the *whos next* life style.  They aren't out to fuck all the p4p girls who come to town many are looking more for someone they like have fun with and without complications but they want the feel of dating with that sensual tryst guarantee more or less. Hey why not.

Don't put so much thought into what all the cronies on Ter say this *hobby* is all about. Trust me, they aren't all out *fuckin* the hobby world either, after all they ave no time for that, Have you noticed how often some of these guys post? No time to play they are on here offering up their opinions on this and that and so on...Most are married and its a sneak around for them so no I wouldn't worry about what the average Ter *hobbyist* says is the norm. As less than 5% of the Hobby community they are not even the norm...
Just do your own thing and as long as YOU are ok with it who gives a shit what the readers think.

I have cut civvy dates short to go see a provider on more than one ocassion, and there is nothing wrong with seeing civvies for companionship and seeing providers for sex.

Who knows? by not hounding your civvy dates for sex, they may start throwing themselves at you. It happens to me on ocassion, they wonder if there is something wrong with themselves because you aren't trying hard enough to get in their pants. It's actually kind of fun to watch a hottie trying to figure out why you aren't falling all over yourself to fuck her like all the other losers that she dates do.

You said: "I went out recently with a lovely young lady, super smart and driven, quite attractive, checked all the next date boxes."

If she meets all of your standards, do you truly believe you'll meet hers? And, if she's "super smart and driven" how do you imagine that will impact you if it develops into a committed relationship? Some guys can see that as a great opportunity to be in a dynamic and fruitful partnership. Others, will imagine much more will be required of them than they are willing or able to give. Some, flit back and forth between the two.

Hanging out with prostitutes is a sure thing.  If this relationship progresses into something more and it is no longer p4p, then the dynamics of the relationship change...all the good and the bad that occurs in "real life" become the realty and not the fantasy that it once was when it was a relationship based on p4p.  The realty of any relationship..whether p4p or not requires a great deal of work, a great deal of compromise from both parties..something that many of us do not or cannot want to do...if you are single.  

Thus it is much easier to stay in the p4p arena, the fantasy arena, and if and when we venture out of this arena to pursue the "real thing" in the back of our minds...we have and will always know that returning to the easier arena of p4p is but a fingertip away from cell phones, computers.

I just don't think there is any one person that meets all the needs for the other person...it is always a life of compromise.  However, living in compromise is not bad, just have to want to find another person who is willing to work at the compromise together.

trust me my friend, i deal with the exact same thing. my issue is that i have a great respect for women and try to see the best in them. so if i see a provider (also very sporadic) and it goes very well, she and i tend to form a weird friendship. and our situation is what prompted a post of mine previously about providing/hobbying ruining someone for the civie world.

I've had civvie relationships (happily married now).  I've hired sex workers.  I've had civvie relationships with sex workers.  I've had sex worker-like relationships with civvies.  I've worked professionally with sex workers, studied sex workers, and studied sex.  I've lectured on sex.  I've been lectured to on sex.  Some days I feel like I know a lot about sex and sex work.  Other days I realize I know nothing.

But I do know this:

Everyone is human.  And sex work is just a job.  It isn't anything more magical than being a dentist or masseuse or bellhop.  It just is.

So my advice is to do what you want to do.  If you like hanging out with someone, and like the way you hang out (paid or free or somewhere in between), then keep doing it.  Just keep the paid dates in perspective.  If you meet a woman who is a bank teller, it doesn't mean she likes to sit around counting money all night, and if you get into a relationship expecting that, you're nuts.  But she might honestly like finance.  Who knows?  You just have to get to know her.

But keep this in mind:  A few threads down a guy was asking for civvie dating advice, and all of the advisors agreed wholeheartedly on one thing: He needed to stop admitting to women that he hired escorts.  "Hey baby, I'm the sort of sleazebag who hires hookers!"  Doesn't really work as a pickup line, does it?  But now imagine that you meet a woman who happens to be an escort, and you meet her through her work.  And now you want a civvie relationship.  You are a guy who hires escorts trying to pick up a woman.  And to make it worse, you are a guy who hires escorts trying to pick up the sort of woman who tends to be pretty cynical about relationships and untrusting of guys.  Good luck.  Plus, think back to your paid dates with a provider.  Did you really act the way you should on a civvie date?  In 'real life', guys don't get BJs without a previous investment of a lot of listening and massage and compliment time.  But you didn't do that, did you?  So you've already put your best foot forward as a selfish guy who hires prostitutes.  I'm not saying that you can't meet sex workers through their work and start relationships.  People do it.  I've done it.  I've know of marriages that have resulted from it.  But it's hard.  Why make your life hard?  Like I said above, sex workers are not magical beings; they are just women.  And there are great women in all sorts of professions that will be a lot easier to meet and get to know (and ultimately, live with!).

In the end, dude, my advice is to take a break from the prostitutes, clear your head, and ask yourself what you really want.  If you want a civvie relationship -- which is very different from hiring escorts -- then go for it.  It has agonies but also incredible benefits that you can definitely not buy.  Or if you like sex worker services, then have fun.  But keep in mind that the latter can be addictive.  Don't let it go to your head or warp reality.

Regardless of what you decide to do, you owe the young civvie lady that you blew off an apology.

And those that have not will never quite understand.

A short piece of advice painfully learned:  I do not think you can ever really have an enduring friendship with a provider's persona.  That is not her.  But if the two of you get comfortable enough where she shows you her real self, then it is possible.

I used to visit a provider named "Alice" (not her real work name).  When she was no longer "Alice" but Susan her non-working name (again, not her real real name) it signaled a move from client/provider relationship to friends relationship.  No, learning her real name did not cause the shift, it was symptimatic of it.

I think being enamored with the provider persona of ladies can hinder real dating because it is artificially "nice" without the real world good and bad parts.  But being enamored by her real self is no different that dating one civie should ruin later dating another.

Just my perspective.

I'm Married...  so it's different for me...  but not so much as you might think.  I don't see the same provider serially (did once & had to take a break from her).  But I do rotate mostly among a small group of Favorites...   yes, the Favorites & myself have to varying degrees blurred the relationship lines.  The longest Fav relationship is approaching 5 years.  I have learned that it is a 2 edged sword.  

The guarentee of sex is alluring...  but it does not really replace a civie relationship where total emotional release is desireable.   In my mind, the pay4play reduces the sexual imperitive so that a male can get to know a woman & not be horny-out-of-your-mind.   This clarity should allow you to properly explore getting to know the civie woman gradually...  hopefully avoiding mistakes.   (I sure made one with my ex...    

Apparently you are using your regular phone for hobbying...  and in the habit of taking calls on a date.  Really, that is sloppy (#1) & rude (#2).   I know you are single BUT I still recommend keeping your hobby life & civie life separate.   IMHO, a good civie relationship has it all over a pay4play relationship.   The point is to find a good or GREAT civie is not easy.   There are civies who will rock your socks off in the bedroom, living room, kitchen, shower, backyard...    I think that too often guys are so happy to get ANY, that they don't explore the full menu...  and often women, after the flush of conquest, are more than happy to put sex on the back burner.   You know what great sex is...   continue to stay in practice...

I regret taking myself off the market for a 5 year period when I fell in love with someone who was (ultimately) unavailable.   I should have been dating available women and been more selective.  

In closing, turn off your phone & give your date your undivided attention...  do not call back a provider until the next day...  give yourself an opportunity to have civie relationships.  There is time enough for the hobby.
skb  

Do you participate on the discussion boards and, if so, how?

43% No.

10% Yes, I post on both the regional and national boards.

15% Yes, I post on just my regional board.

1% Yes, I post only on the national boards.

29% Yes, but I usually just read and do not post.

Total Votes: 7205

Many members of Ter don't post at all, or certainly less then you(and that's just under this alias). I can only assume you post under your real handle as well but probably not while bashing The men on TER.  There are also a large # of Ter members that keep their membership to themselves. Nice to know how you do feel about Ter hobbyist.
Doc
ps. since i don't know where you are please feel free to refuse service if we cross paths, I wouldn't want you to slum it with a Ter hobbyist.

of your posts but this one kept my interest.

This has been a great post for me. I am pretty much in exactly the same situation with several providers. I am single and have nothing to hide. I too have pushed away personal girlfriends and am more likedly to go with a paid sure thing. It can be so much easier and less complicated. I am friends with several.
     Sometimes I get some freebies, but I never count on it. I realize that these girls do this for a living and I treat them all with much respect. Of course I have to be careful. Several have tried to take advantage of me. I will pretty much do anything for anybody and once some girls find this out they try to use me, but it has mostly worked out well as long as I keep my limits as to what I am willing to do for someone.
     I have dated a few for a little while. It is kind of fun to get their perspective on the lifestyle of an escort. It is also nice to see someone that I dont have to hide my hobby from and that I can talk to about the hobby.
     But thanks for the post. I have been doing the same thing for a while now. I am just careful about how much I let a provider know about me.

-- Modified on 4/21/2011 5:27:58 PM

This is very true to my experience too. I have civvy girl that lives really close to an escort. I think me not trying to fuck the civvy girl all the time makes her want it more when we do!

Some guys admit that they couldn't ever get laid without an envelope full of bennies.  Other guys are married to a lady they love, but need to get laid and she won't hear of it.  You say that neither of those are your situation.  For you, hobbying is a sure thing, but dating fills a different need, namely real companionship.  So, it's natural to be conflicted when choosing between 2 different needs.  If you're with a civie date and enjoying her company, logic dictates that you'd not leave for a piece of ass.  The problem is that logic doesn't get horny, but I'll bet you do.  The civie may be worth pursuing, but rushing her to the bedroom could be the kiss of death to the relationship.  Blah, blah, blah, suck my dick!!!  Ding!  Call the escort, get your nut and return to let the relationship develop, or not.  It's way easier to be rational when you aren't thinking with your dick.

OK, time's up and I have a sex addicted young lady that needs my help, lol.

Oh you so missed some of the marks.

For one, just because you have an SO does not mean she's frigid and hence you are looking for some on the side.  It could well be that there is someone at work making the moves on you but you just KNOW if you went with it, she'd be over at your house at 3 am banging on the door screwing up your life, an escort will never do that. (okay, they probably won't do that.)

For another, maybe you CAN get laid without bennies but you don't want the hassel?  There are plenty of good reasons to choose an escort over a girlfriend.  

Here's a biggie:  An escort will never lay into you right when you enter the door, yelling at you for some comment you made three weeks ago!  Even if she advertises GFE, she is not really a GF, no matter what the experience is!  Another one?  

Okay, an escort is more likely to get herself screened.  Civvies have this immortal complex and seem to never get screened!

A third?  Geez, okay, how about the cost of a limo, a fine dinner downtown in a major city, a production at your local "broadway" and then, you get home, and get a nice peck on the cheek.  Yea, you guessed it, an escort probably isn't going to do that to you, especially if you book a 4 hour date with them.

So, you cannot do the civilian dating thing anymore?  Yea, but do you really want too?  That is a good question.  Okay, fine, there is something to be said for getting someone to live with you, despite your faults, who keeps her judgement of you inside and does not charge you for the experience.  However, there is something to be said for spending time with a girl who will not judge you, will not hold a grudge (if she does, she will just refrain from seeing you again, right?) will always smile when you come to the door, will provide pleasent conversation, will lie to your boss for you (yea, the SO does NOT go to corporate functions with me!  I like someone cute, adorable, smart and witty to accompany me, the SO can maybe accomplish 2 of those at any given time), someone who is sure to give you a "good time" and someone you can replace, if you get bored, with no hard feelings.

Honestly, and it could just be because I participate in this hobby - despite having some reviews not be approved yet -, but I would take an escort over a girlfriend 5 nights out of 7 a week.  And no, it wouldn't matter a lick if they increased their rate two fold, they would still be worth it, just to have someone to talk too that wouldn't judge me.  The sex, if it happens (more than once I've been content just to talk, weird, I know), is an added bonus.

Just my two coppers on it.  But, a good escort beats an awesome psychologist every day of the week and twice on any day ending in y, IMHO.  Cheaper too, if you think about it.

Companionship and growing old together - is what civie relationships are about.  Sex is important, but over time it becomes a second priority or non-priority.

Escorts - Well, we do have to fulfill our sexual urges and even our occasional loneliness.  But this does not replace long-term companionship and how you grow old together with another person where you share spiritual, mental, emotional and physical needs altogether.

Now if you fall for an Escort, that's another thing. Then, you'll begin to see the real 'her'.

Are you talking about dogs or escorts?  

In the battle of the sexes, God (or mother nature for you atheists) has given women a big advantage:  c*cks like p*ssies much more than p*ssies like c*cks.  The only way any man can have any chance is to play hard to get.  I am naturally wimpy around women, but I recently discovered that I do have testicles.  Recently, a civilian lady friend sent me a text message with a true, but nasty, discussion of my many deficiencies.  I responded that we she was too good for me and that we should break up.  Within 30 minutes, she sent me 5 texts/emails apologizing profusely.  Since then, the lady has been very appreciative of my "favors".

Escorts are as judgmental as any other women, they just fake that there not more.

So I think he is talking about dogs or he is so naive as to actually believe that escorts are some rare species of women that are different then every other woman out there.

A fistful of benjamins, though certainly a lot of money by some standards, is really a small price to pay for intimacy when you consider that the money bypasses all of a woman's usual tests and standards applicable to both your intrinsic attributes and behavioral manifestations.

So it isn't really much to risk. It's just money and you can't take it with you anyway. It's not like risking really important stuff -- like hours and hours of time, emotional involvement, rejection, concern, etc.

Let me tell you -- there is no such thing as a free lunch. Sometimes you will certainly get the short end of the stick with ANY investment; but in general, your odds of getting the long end of the stick improve with what you invest.

In p4p generally, you are making a minimal investment in the woman; and while you may consider the sex to be the cream of the crop of what she has to offer, it is frankly at most 5%-10% of what a woman can give. If all you really want from women is sex, though, p4p is an excellent deal.

But my general thought is that humans want and need more; for which in the long run p4p is a poor substitute.

Obviously, you should do what you wish.

In general, however, you are best pursuing civie relationships with women who, because you haven't bypassed their tests and requirements, will challenge you to grow and evolve into the best you can be. And in exchange for this, they'll maybe even give you things that sex workers cannot within that context -- such as the joy of fatherhood or a family meal.

Civie girls require maximum investment of giving a crap. And they aren't a sure bet. But when the diligence pays off, the pay out is a lot higher.

...because of the $$$ involved, it's a rule of thumbto use  that makes one think twice about the value of a provider encounter and other relationships.    Whenever you see a provider, give the same amount to someone else important to you or who deserves receiving.  The provider relationship, however sweet, is temporal, and forcing yourself to give not just for yourself, for whatever reason, makes me want to put in the extra effort to make an encounter more meaningful.  Plus, sure makes me think twice.  And it's really really hard to do, but worth it.

Escorts, companions, whatever you call them, are just as genetically screwed up as all other women.  What I was referring too was that they will pretend to be rational, sane, human beings during your stay and keep their insanity bottled up until you leave.

How could they be more rational than other women?  Do they not have that genetic defect of having too much data in their chromosomes??  Men are, genetically, more efficient than women, that's why we don't need that extra bit of information that short circuits the brain taking an, otherwise normal, human being and screws up their personalities.

However, I have found that the women in this hobby are significantly more practiced in pretending to be normal, rational humans and even faking pleasure in your company.  Civilians will always go off the deep end!

For example:  I have never had an escort have an entire fight with me, without me being in the room, phone, near a computer, anywhere close to her and in no way possible to communicate with her.  Further, she has never held this information to use in a real fight with me.  Even worse, she has never attempted to get me to apologize FOR SOMETHING I NEITHER SAID NOR DID!  But I have had plenty of women I have dated and the one I married do it to me.


Further, if an escort ever did that to me, I wouldn't care a lick about leaving and finding someone new to fulfill my desires and needs.  It's not like you have an emotional attachment that you would have to worry about trying to build with a new girl...one that would - almost certianly - be just as frakkin screwed up as the last one was!


Certainly, a dog is better than an escort who, in turn, is better than a girlfriend and it all is better than being beat about the head with a flail, though, there are times I would take the flail over the wife!  It's less painful!!!

It can be very rewarding to do this.  

Think about what you want from life.  Marriage is a great system for raising children, but having children isn't for everyone.
Personally, being a father has been immensely rewarding for me, and marriage was hugely beneficial to me in giving me the opportunity to become a father and raise my children in a loving home.

Lots to think about, but it all starts with getting to truly know yourself, and accept who you are.

if you are offended by stating there are members who play the sneak around game cuz they are married, well there are. It wasn't judgement just reality.
Its easier for single men to have play dates, another reality. They don't have to sneak around. Its a very different atmosphere all the way around.
Te fact that there are some cronies on here who live on this board, another fact and yes I prefer not to see te hobbyist so engrained in this hobby and that Isn't most of te men I see and many don't even know about Ter.
Ter is a small fraction of Gentlemen wjo play here in this lil corner of the world.
Oh and te alias...yes there are many reasons why someone uses an alias, mine is simple. I am hiding who I am from one TER stalker adn an Ex BF who reads the boards and is obnoxious when he reads my *Sweetnicole1* posts. I just can't get rid of him. Its my way of avioding complications in my real life.
Feel free to Not call me. Hey everyone isn't gonna be our cup of tea, The Ladies as well as Ter members included. Its true I prefer less jaded clients so I see a lot of regulars who don't play the field and have for many yrs seen some of the same ppl. Look we all like what we like. Its all good.
If anything I have said hit a nerve with you thats your issue.

Toodles
Nicole

i finally just had time to read through most of the responses to my post. sorry it took me so long to return. sincerely thank you to all of you who have both made me feel normal, and well, not so normal!  

by way of an update, i was out this evening with one of those smart/driven/attractive young women who are totally in my dating pool, and it was a great time.  and no, i didnt bail for something else!

i agree with the comment that its probably best to take a break and evaluate what exactly i want.  in fact i know to some degree what it is, and perhaps who, but circumstances of life are making a bit hard to work out right now, that said, i'm going to make the effort for something i think is truly worth my time and energy - even if it isnt straighforward from day one.  the intention is there, and i think i need to make the first move in the saying i want things to move forward.

also, just to clarify, these provider relationships that developed, really developed into "non-provider" relationships in the sense that there was no $ involved, no implied quid-pro-quo, just the same as some of those friends with benefits relationships all of us have had at one point or another.  i guess that was the most confusing part for me because perhaps its human nature, but i found myself trying to visualize or contemplate what these relationships would evolve into, and where they would go.  i guess it was that "nowhere" answer that kind of woke me up?  

heck who knows.  i was always raised to accept the wonderful things that different people bring to your life, so i guess no matter what, even at my fairly young but no too young age, whoever i meet will have a history of sorts, at the end of the day i'll go with my wise mothers advice about making sure you value the same things and regardless of the bends in the road, you're compasses both point in the same direction...

again, thanks all...