Geez...gripe, gripe, gripe about civilian women! Great post, Ortho...and just in time!
What a bunch of whiners! I wonder what women would say about some of the men making these posts, or their own relationship experiences (being cheated on, dumped for someone "hotter", not paid child support, physical or emotional abuse), or the realities that motivate them to set the boundaries they do in relationships (not having sex too soon as to seem "easy" or be taken for granted, having to consider a man's means because they may be providing for a family or the woman knows she most likely will not be able to make what a man can, not immediately being a "freak" in bed because their motivation for sexual happiness is often from more of an emotional base than a physical one).
As Sedona said, build a friendship and the rest will follow. We have such a warped sense of expectations in modern society about what love and intimate relationships are about. To get something deeper from your partner, you have to be deeper yourself.
I am 40, and I have almost NEVER had a relationship with a woman who wasn't great and very openminded in bed. The couple of women I have been with who were, their attitude on sex reflected their attitude about other things, and the relationship ended quickly. There are plenty of civilian women who are not prudes, golddiggers, or manipulators, just as there are plenty of men who aren't cheaters, liars, irresponsible, and uncommunicative. To find them, you just have to look hard and be worthy of someone of that caliber.
In the meantime, "Let he who is sinless cast the first stone".
Been at this for several months now and am quickly discovering the downside to hobbying beyond the obvious, financial resources. I am beginning to wonder how one continues in or gets back to the civilian world after being here. I am discovering that providers are generally great looking women physically; they are bright, articulate and personable; they take pride in their bodies and know how to and do take great care of themselves; are comfortable with themselves as individuals (with some few exceptions); and they are generally very comfortable with their own sexuality and that of others. I would say that is a far cry from the women I meet on a regular basis in the general population. I am becoming more and more frustrated with some of the usual civilian realities like, extended dating to build a "friendship" or "love relationship" prior to anything else happening; the obligatory or expected phone calls; statements like "I don't do that", or "you want to put that WHERE?" Yikes, am I the only one who is having difficulty in this regard? Please folks, show me the way to survive in both worlds!
Actually, the first thing I want to do is comment on how you're noticed the (many) differences between being with providers compared to being with civilian ladies. There ARE many positives, aren't there?? Maybe even more than you might have expected..
And the same is true for us ladies of you gents.
We both love the openness, the 'realness' that this 'hobby' brings as well as the different level of intimacy.
So, now what?
I have this discussion, in varying degrees, in my personal relationship from time to time.
I think the first thing is BEING an openly communicative person, who in turn make people feel that they can be themselves WITH you. Be very honest about what you like and make the person feel very 'accepted' and not judged. Depending on the age of the ladies (what decade they grew up), many are feeling they have to 'be' a certain way, or you will be repulsed by them, and reject them if they are sexually open. I actually remember being raised that we (females) weren't SUPPOSED to even LIKE sex! Ashamed, if you did..
Cultivate a friendship and the rest will grow..
Why didn't I think of that?
"Cultivate a friendship and the rest will grow.." is not how the real world works. Yeah, the rest will grow, but what will grow is a nice platonic friendship, not a girlfriend.
The fact is, women like to be friends with all sorts of guys that fall below their own personal "I'd be willing to fuck him" line. They'll be happy to be great friends, for as long as you're willing to stick around like a lap dog, or dish the dirt like a girlfriend. Just don't get any ideas about crawling out of the dreaded "friend zone" and into bed, or you'll be reminded of your status post haste.
It's time we quit bullshitting each other on this board and aknowledge how the real world works for average looking guys. We may be the salt of the earth, but attractive women in the civilian world don't even see us unless then need something.
And PLEEZ, don't post something like "I feel sorry for anyone with that attitude." I had a good marriage for 15 years and a number of really great relationships since. But in the in between times, I've also learned the hard realities of dating when you're no longer a 20-something, wealthy, or just average looking. There's a reason this board exists.
Yeah, if you want a friend, cultivate a friendship. Just don't be too suprised when two years later she sees you as someone who can take her to the airport, while you still see her as a potential girlfriend.
And I think what you say is certainly a truth we've all seen and experienced at some time or another. And also, we've ALL experienced being in a one-sided relationship where your feelings were not reciprocated, certainly not at least the same way, too.
I was under the impression that Muffyman has/had both going on and has definitely leaned towards preferring his Provider relationships, but wanted to transfer those positive things from the Provider relationships to his civilian dating. That's the impression I was under. So, since one noticeable difference to me was the open communication and discussions of sexuality (and practice thereof!), I suggested he create that. I also had the feeling he had a few ladies with whom he shared some mutual attraction, and suggested he cultivate the friendship part which I still stand by saying 'the rest will grow'. I think any relationship whether SO or marriage is better when you are good friends; have a deep friendship.
As I say, that's how I interpreted his post.
Dude you are so right.
Women do not respect nice guys and will not consider them as boyfriend or fuckable material unless they're ready to settle down because all the hot guys or rich guys have passed them over and/or the woman is no longer in her early to mid 20s.
I don't have any solutions other than to encourage every average guy out there to work hard, make money and lie, cheat and treat most women like a piece of shit. That's the only thing that most women respond to.
And for all of you average guys, be sure to listen to Tom Leykis on the radio. He'll set your attitudes right. www.blowmeuptom.com
Your assessment is very accurate. Depending on the individual, it can be very tough to do. I haven't even had any interest in civilian dating since I started hobbying. Relationships can be a lot of work (as you explained) and it's not necessarily cheaper than hobbying either (xmas,bday, flowers, vacations,always paying for two,etc..). Let's face it, your gonna pay either way.
I think I'll have to quit hobbying cold turkey if I want to go back to the dating pool. One second thought......i'll put that off once again until NEXT years new years resolution!
Is meeting women in the hobby who meet all the descriptors you mentioned who are looking for civilian dates and can't find them. I've met two women recently in this category. One even so bold as to ask a guy out jogging ... "are you married or seeing someone, 'cause if you're not, would you like to have lunch?"
Both are amazing individuals. Smart, cute, great sex.
So, just where do these ladies jog? I'm already lacing up my Nikes!
Great post. What you are trying to come to terms with is the fact that hobbying is so enjoyable, that what you used to think of as 'normal' dating doesn't float your boat anymore....and, you know what? It won't. So why ever leave hobbying? The ladies are amazing, the guys are really cool (those few that I've met), and the sex is off the charts.
Besides, normal dating is really just hobbying in disguise. All relationships are based on the premise that each person gives what the other person wants/needs. Hobbying is the most direct, straightforward and honest reflection of that for me.
I'm hopelessly addicted...
Be wonderful to eachother,
Jacksonlips
My orginal motivation was to get over some baggage from my previous marriage and remember what it is like to leave that sexual "comfort zone" one finds oneself in, thinking "once or twice and I'll move on". However, the ladies I have meet are nothing like what I expected. (I though I was going to meet strippers / ex-strippers that were not quite right. Sorry ladies, I was young and clearly stupid.) But keep in mind, even I can be charming and wonderful for an hour or three at a time [ barely ;p ]. The product is not just the obvious, it is catering to your fantasies and needs. You do not really find the incompatabilites until you spend some serious time together. If you are looking for an outgoing woman, this hobby is full of them, but this is not the only place they exist.
"If you don't like what your catchin', change your fishing hole."
Paraphrased Dr. Phil (I hate cheap pycho-babble but some times he makes sense.)
My $.02.
-- Modified on 10/3/2003 5:25:03 PM
The civilian life is hard, there is no doubt.
I have an ATF who I "love" She is all the things you mentioned above and more. I would probably marry her if that were possible but that is not going to happen.
Even the best ATF will NOT be your
Life Partner
Bear your children
Share your financial obligations
Be there in sickness and in health.
If any of the above interest you, then you will need to Strap on the pads and figure out a way to get it done.
I am not single but I hear some single hobbyists claim it is actually easier to be with Civilians because there is no pressure to have sex because they can always get it from a provider.
When I was single 20 years ago, I never had a problem with women performing the usual with me BBBJ, Vaginal sex in all positions. Greek and kinky never did anything for me. The single guys I know now don't seem to have much problem.
I think it is sometimes an unrealistic expectation to have sex on the first date. You are picking a class of woman who expects to be wined and dined before they will put out. You could try a different group either through internet dating or some other mechanism I don't know. There are civilians out there with the same interests as you. They just don't have websites.
I really sorta object to this underlying belief that providers are somehow a different species than civilians. All providers were civilians before they became providers and most of the providers who post claim to be low volume or part time so maybe you'll luck out and meet a provider in civilian's clothing.
I wish you good hunting out there. I wish I had met my ATF as a civilian. I think in the long run you will be ultimately better served with a civilian.
Geez...gripe, gripe, gripe about civilian women! Great post, Ortho...and just in time!
What a bunch of whiners! I wonder what women would say about some of the men making these posts, or their own relationship experiences (being cheated on, dumped for someone "hotter", not paid child support, physical or emotional abuse), or the realities that motivate them to set the boundaries they do in relationships (not having sex too soon as to seem "easy" or be taken for granted, having to consider a man's means because they may be providing for a family or the woman knows she most likely will not be able to make what a man can, not immediately being a "freak" in bed because their motivation for sexual happiness is often from more of an emotional base than a physical one).
As Sedona said, build a friendship and the rest will follow. We have such a warped sense of expectations in modern society about what love and intimate relationships are about. To get something deeper from your partner, you have to be deeper yourself.
I am 40, and I have almost NEVER had a relationship with a woman who wasn't great and very openminded in bed. The couple of women I have been with who were, their attitude on sex reflected their attitude about other things, and the relationship ended quickly. There are plenty of civilian women who are not prudes, golddiggers, or manipulators, just as there are plenty of men who aren't cheaters, liars, irresponsible, and uncommunicative. To find them, you just have to look hard and be worthy of someone of that caliber.
In the meantime, "Let he who is sinless cast the first stone".
I submit that Women have created their own problems by still treating themselves as property or chattle.
I submit that it's their inability to think for themselves as a whole that keeps them pigonholed as being objects.
Sedona is wrong. Starting a friendship with a woman leads to nothing but heartbreak. Sure, as a fluke some guys can pull it off, but most of those guys are usually good looking and just had to jump through a different set of hoops.
Consider this, a woman will tell her male friend all sorts of intimate details about her life, her family, her menstral cycle, and worst of all the guy that she starts to f*ck. And all the time she'll never realize that you're attracted to her. And at the same time, she'd never be able to breathe any of this information to the guy that she's f*cking. She'll be intimate with a "friend" but now with the guy who's dick she's sucking.
*** How F*CKED UP is that ***
It's TOTALLY FUCKED UP. It's insane. Illogical and incomprehensible. How many of us nice guys who have HONESTLY tried to be a friend with hopes of becoming a lover had to sit thought, "You know that guy I met two nights ago? *giggle, giggle* Well I had sex with him and it was GREAT!!! *giggle*"
Women are friends with guys that they don't want to fuck or marry. If you're a guy and you want to fuck a girl, don't start off being her friend. Even if she says, "I'm just looking for a friend right now," Just walk away. Why? Well think of it this way; if you were great looking and had thousand dollar bills sticking out of your pocket she wouldn't dare tell you that she only wants a friend right now.
And because of this, I have more respect for your common theiving streetwalking hooker than I do for the chick in the next cubicle.
Treat your provider like a queen, treat a "civi" like shit.
that would say something as generalized as "treat civis like shit".
First off, dude, I was for the most part talking about relationships (and I think Sedona was, too). When I said I agreed with her saying "Create a friendship and the rest will follow", it was in the context of creating a relationship at the same time. Basically, whit I meant (and what I think she meant) was that if you are interested in someone, and they are in you, if you sincerely treat that person as a friend in the beginning of the relationship, you will deepen the base from which your relationship will spring. I was in no way implying that the best way to get a woman into bed was to "be her friend".
Now, as for what you said, I would wager pretty heavily that you are speaking from personal experience (not a slam, dude...I have had it happen to me, too), and that you harbor some resentment about it. I do, too...but only to those individuals, and to myself for being foolish enough to not read the situation quickly enough and leave with my dignity intact.
And hey...how many women have tried to be friends with a guy who said he "really wanted to be" her friend, only to have them hit on her and make her lose respect for them...or something much worse, like getting raped by the guy.
Sorry, dude...men are just as guilty (if not more...remember, we are the ones who want to fuck their sisters...one hell of a lot more than they want to fuck our brothers) as women, in their own way. That is what I meant by "Let he who is sinless...".
Hey man,
You make a good point. However I still must disagree with you about the friendship thing. The majority of women are to mindless to think that way. Some will but most just won't.
As for men wanting to be a woman's friend and then trying to hit on them...well I think that's pretty much bound to happen since most men are friends with women that they find attractive. Not all, but most. And even if it was a passing attraction the chances are that it'll become more, esp. if they hang out often.
And why should a woman lose respect for a guy who is their friend and then wants to pursue a romantic or sexual relationship with them. It's the direct opposite of what Sedona and some other people have been saying... friends first then lovers. Well that's why you don't become friends with a woman you're interested in.
As for personal expereinces, yes you are right. I think it happens to almost every guy when they're young. But as my friend once told me, once you watch the woman friend that you love, rips your heart out of your chest, thows it on the floor, sets fire to it and then shits on it... then you'll know, then you'll know that being the nice guy, being the friend is only being a fool.
my .02 cents though. (but I'm convinced that I'm right)
for the most part, the ladies are wonderful. However, sooner or later, it is time to get off the ride.
Funny you should bring this up, but I was thinking somewhat along the same lines recently. In my day I have probably been with enough civilian women (a lot of single years before and between marriages) to say that many civilian women are just not particularly good in bed (either that or I'm not particularly good in bed and they are a reflection of me 
--but I prefer to ignore that possibility--after all, there have been a few good ones). Somewhere along the line it probably has to do with upbringing, repression, the Catholic church, Jewish guilt, not understanding that there is more to sex than lying there with your legs spread, or that you get out of it what you put into it (I think there is a pun there but it is not intended).
There is probably a lot of money to be made if one or more of the wonderful ladies we have the pleasure of meeting through this activity would start a school on sexuality for the rest of the women in the world. (Sedona would make a great Headmistress--oooh, that word gets me excited . . . but I digress--because her reviews show she really understands sexuality, and it's a lot more than rubbing body parts together.) Many women need to understand that by learning to enjoy themselves and open their minds as well as their legs, they increase not only their own enjoyment but also the enjoyment of their partners. (Whenever I say stuff like this I always have the nagging fear that it's me, and that maybe I am the one who should go to school.)
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble and thinking about Sedona has caused me to lose my train of thought . . ..
...great thread...being a married guy working in an industry surrounded by women, dealing with temptations and workplace taboos has been a daily hassle for years. It's the American schizophrenia and culture, selling sex in a Puritanical society, affecting both civilian men and women. That's the wonderful freedom, and irony, of the hobby! Add in the excitement of the clandestine chase, the thrill of the new encounter, the adrenaline of learning about one's limits....no wonder it's addicting! [I won't delve into my own ATF heartache, but I wonder if the whole thing is different in Europe or South America???] Have said that, I'm just discovering FBSM, and how exquisitely erotic that CAN be....I'm just glad to have TER, and The Review Board in Seattle.
I have already considered flying to her from Boston, spending all my money, an offer of marriage, ... to this lady.
PM me, is this actually the perfect woman that I have been seeking. This poor seaker wants to know!!! Drop everything else...Harry
....with the last few words of my posted review of Sedona:
"And the more time you spend, the more she’ll grow on you, and the more you’ll want to see her again, and again, and again. Sedona is an addiction, in every good sense of the word."
'Nuff said?
There is no question that civilian woman and providers express different qualities.
As hobbyists, we are fortunate to spend time with beautiful, interesting and intelligent woman...and the sexual intimacy isn't bad either.
Please don't forget that these ladies work hard (keeping their bodies toned, skin soft, being cultured, dressing attractively, expressing sexuality, etc.) to help us have the best time possible. I've been fotunate enough to make a real connection with many of the ladies, which only heightens the experience. These ladies really take a lot of pride and effort and really know how to make a man feel great and valued. I remember something one of the ladies I spent time with said..."my every focus is on you for the time we spend together." That made me feel really special.
Will we be able to find these many qualities in a civilian relationship? Who knows.... until I find a great civilian lady who is TOTALLY compatible, I will continue to indulge in my hobby.
each and every one of these posts offer some very trueful insight
into the pros and cons of dating civillans and providers,
I also would like to post on this subject also,
I like the thought of the hobby for the fact that it is so open
when it comes to sex! It is one of the main reason why we are
indulging ourselfs, But we also are meeting some very bright and
sexy indiviuals whom we at times connect with on the emotional
level. I would have to agree with Self Destruct in that there are
civillan women out there who are just as great as the providers
that we meet, But I being a sexually secure and open person that
I am have been unable to connect with a civillian woman who is
open and honest and bright, What I have come to understand is
that we in the hobby are not afriad to ask for our needs to be
met as opposed to civillian dating where all of the head games
and deceit is going on. I am in a relationship with a provider
who was my atf and still is just that, my atf, We have gotten
to know each other beyound the level of friendship and love has
grown. We do live far apart but we talk often, and yes she is
at present still providing, But we do have the understanding that
we will not allow ourselves to become emotionally attached
until we resolve our differences, such as will she become a
a one man woman/ will I become a one woman man?
I am willing to make that commitment to her now but she as of
yet is not willing to make that kind of commitment to the
relationship at this time. I have been supportive of her just
the same and will continue to do so because after all its not
just about my needs alone. Well I have babbled on to long
sorry, just my .02 cents
Two observations...
First, and I've said this in several posts before, I found EVERYTHING about this hobby to be different than what I originally thought it would be. Every meeting always ends up being so much more personal than the anonymous nature of this hobby would imply. Every date ends up being so much more of an emotional connection even though I thought the whole idea was going to be more physical. You're definitely feelin' it, that reality that the whole experience means more to you than you thought it would. Sure, I've had bad experiences, but only a few. Most of the rest have left me bewildered by the whole thing. I knock on a door and it's answered by a complete stranger who doesn't know me, know anything about me, and isn't likely the least bit attracted to me. Yet she seems to know how much her touch means to me. Sure, there's a financial incentive, but I'm surprised by how often the whole encounter seems much more genuine than that. Sometimes the provider simply appreciates how much their touch can affect someone, and they're motivated by the satisfaction of giving. Sometimes they simply have a real respect for the financial contribution that you're making to support their family and in return want to create a really great experience for you. I suppose there are some good actresses out there, but rarely does it ever feel like it's just about the money. I just had no idea before I started that it wasn't just about the whoopie for me, it wasn't just about the money for her, instead it was about something more being exchanged that I didn't expect.
Which brings me to my second point... I wasn't in this very long before I realized there really wan't an end-game. It wasn't like I could identify a specific time or a specific set of circumstances where this would just stop. As long as I have the means and as long as the experiences are this valuable to me, I don't think I'll ever really quit. Rather, I tend to drift in and out. I'll go a few months with little activity, then a few months of a lot, and I guess that will never end.
I have to side with the hobbyists on this one. Please understand that meeting and dating civilian women is, for some us, an extraordinally difficult and akward process. As one of the first posts stated, it can be tough when you're average looking, have little money, or just really shy. What may seem like an effortltess thing for some to do can be a torturous thing for someone else who is not as skilled or lucky. And there is a large part of society that is set out to make you feel like a feak because you participate in this hobby. Trust me, this hobby makes me live out things in my life that, for many reasons, cannot be duplicated in my own civilian life. It's easier, less nerve racking, and really helps me and many others "forget" our own insecurities, even if only temporary.
And I think that the gentleman who posted that he had never had a relationship with a woman who wasn't great and very openminded in bed, in my opinion, you are the vast minority. It's a lot more difficult for some of us.
I find escorts pretty much like civilian women in the sense that there are few great civilian women and few great providers. The difference is that it takes a long time (for me) to find a great civilian woman. It may take years and years. In fact I really only met about 3 in my lifetime and one of them I married. You can go through enough escorts and TER helps alot (so let's stop this inflated reviews please!!) so that I can find a great escrot in a few months. I've had 4 ATFs and each have been great sexually, emotionally and a good friend as well. If I lose my atf, I can probably find another in a short while. In the civillian world it can take years and a whole ton of money. Escorts are a bargain.