How the hell does it hurt anyone if gay people get married?
Even though it IS about morality for some Republicans (assumed reference from your Bush campaign quote) it is more often ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.
When homosexual relationships are not legally recognized it is easier for companies and governments to deny benefits to the partners of their employees.
Liberally controlled institutions like universities (I battled on behalf of students and employees of a school dominated by Democrats) continue to legally refuse to recognize non-traditional family units and therefor deny benefits to the employees' partners. At our school one of the very top administrators of the institution was gay and several prominent faculty were as well but the Regents ignored their pleas. And its not like the president or chancellors or other high-ranking officials entered the fray. In private discussions everyone who would actually discuss the issue admitted that it was for budget reasons. They feared skyrocketing insurance costs.
So you're right this IS what he meant about compassionate conservatism (compassion for fellow conservatives!)but remember the other guys ain't much better.
-- Modified on 7/31/2003 11:20:04 PM
The way I see it, we can "preserve the sanctity of marriage" and call the bluff on budget issues -- and solve the legal problem -- by using another term (other than the M word) to mean the exact legal equivalent -- civil union I think already means something less, so another term is needed, but it would be a civil contract exactly the same for all legal purposes as marriage.
Then the sanctity of marriage has been preserved, but all the obvious societal good that comes from encouraging stable families, however constituted; protecting the rights of gays as to the whole range of "spousal" rights (I hope "spousal" is not a sanctity word), including inheritance, health insurance, right to direct medical care, etc.; and so forth, is served. A rose by any other name, and all that.
Just a thought.
You are right about this being largely a matter of money.
On the "moral" side, Bush implied that gay people are "sinners".
between the religious right and conservative Republicans is SOLEY based upon power and money. It's really important that we vote to keep religion out of politics.
Sure ... why not let gays get married? I suspect that in the long haul there would be no economic down side.
As a businessman who extended benefits to families, I often considered that a gay person would expect me to extend benefits their his/her partner, as some other companies do. In itself, this wouldn't be a problem ... and seems only fair ....
EXCEPT ...
Once you extend benefits to one person and their non-married partner, it seems logical that the unmarried hetero people could claim discrimination ... so we'd have to extend to them ... then the next step would logically be that the single people complain that we (the company) are paying more salary related funds to people WITH significant others ... and demand we give them the cash difference. Better if we let any two people who want to get married just do it ... and keep the playing field level.
Having said that .... a gay person who wants to get married needs serious counselling. As does a straight person that wants to get married.
"Take my word for it: Just find a woman that already hates you, buy her a house and give her $3k a month for 11 years. It saves SO much time and aggravation!"
I really don’t think it’s about the money. The big money is in health insurance; there are a few other family benefits, like dental, vision and minimal life insurance, but the amounts of money are trivial compared to the cost of health insurance.
Clearly, the proportion of gay married people in the workforce would be very small. Only about 60% of heterosexual people over 18 are married. Gays and lesbians probably constitute less than 10% of the population, and would probably marry at a lower rate than heterosexuals if no other reason that that it is not traditional. This means less than 6% of the workforce would be affected.
Not every married couple take advantage of any family benefits. If both are working for entities that provide health insurance, it’s usually much cheaper for each to get their health insurance from their own employer. About 80% of employees are in situations in which health insurance is available as a benefit and over 70% of the population over 18 and under 65 is in the workforce and employed. (Excluding those in the military or institutionalized, for whom I would think the matter is not an issue.)
I think the percentages for gays and lesbians would be higher, but even at those rates more than 56% of the gays and lesbians in the workforce would be in a situation in which both had access to employer provided (not necessarily funded) health insurance. In those circumstances, in the absence of children, usually neither would take advantage of family benefits. Even if one did, almost never do both parties take advantage of family benefits. What this means, I think, is that less than half of gay or lesbian partners would take advantage of family benefits solely on the grounds that they got their insurance from their own employer. This reduces the percentage of the workforce that would potentially impact employer costs at less than 3%--probably a lot less.
Of those, most employers will require contributions to the cost of health insurance for spouses varying from a substantial portion to all. This required contribution will discourage many, if not a majority to forgo the employer provided insurance for their partner; and thus reduce the percentage of the workforce affected to probably less than 1.5%. Even if the employee nonetheless elects coverage for his or her partner; the cost to the employer will be reduced by the amount of the contribution. Those employers who pay nothing towards the health insurance of partners will obviously not be affected by gay marriage at all.
Spousal insurance typically costs less than $600 per month or about $3,500 per year. although these costs involve considerations of children and pregnancy, which are essentially irrelevant to gay and lesbian partners.
Thus the cost to a typical company that employees, say, 10,000 people with annual sales of $5 billion, paying about half the spousal health insurance cost would be about 1.5% x 10,000 x $3,500 x ½ = $262,500 per year. Out of $5 billion this is not a significant amount; it’s might break the petty cash budget, but not by much.
Also, there is a benefit to companies in providing family benefits; they don’t do this for heterosexuals for purely altruistic reasons. Enhanced employee loyalty, satisfaction, productivity, reliability and longevity; and better community and other relations. If an employee is distracted at work worrying about paying his or her spouse’s medical bills and securing their medical care, productivity will suffer. Employee under financial pressure are more likely to steal, and evince other anti-social behaviour. On the other hand, the good feeling and loyalty engendered by providing access to health insurance—effectively quality heath care—for an impaired spouse, could be very great and long lasting.
I don’t think it’s about money. I think it’s about a moral position. In Bush’s case, I don’t even think it’s about the politics. He didn’t have to come out so strongly and so uncompromisingly; his base is secure. He really believes this stuff, which, by the way, I regard as pretty medieval, kind of dumb, and really intolerant.
But it doesn’t help to make up and ascribe silly motives to your enemy. One is better off understanding where he’s coming from, even if you don’t like it.
"Once you extend benefits to one person and their non-married partner"
How would extending benefits to two gay people who are married be doing this?
No ,.. that was MY point. If they're allowed to get married ... it makes it cut & dried for employers again.
I'm in favor of it
Thanks for clarifying.
During the first two years of the Clinton Administration this never came up! Then the democrats had the votes to accomplish it, but then it really isn't a serious issue anyway, is it!
Just another lame ass attempt by the left to make Bush look intolerant. It is back firing on the democrats just like their opposition to the Iraq war has with mainstream Americans.
I am loving it, these idiotic issues keep showing the voting public just how moronic the left has become. Oh how I want to see a Bush Vs Dean in 2004! It will be a larger landslide than 1984!
-- Modified on 8/1/2003 10:46:30 AM
I, too, so want Dean to get the Democratic nomination. The entertainment factor would be legendary.
The left doesn't have to work at making Bush look intolerant. He's doing a fine job of it on his own. The left didn't put those words in his mouth.
What word? His statement in the press conference was anything but intolerant!
Amazing how those questions are not asked in a simular format of Dashle and or any other limp dick democrat. How is it that you would expect them to answer it.
Like I said, these idiotic ideas only reveal the moronic mindset of the left... keep it up, Bush is loving the response of the majority of America to these democratic ideas (and I use the word idea loosely).
Gays Don't Vote for Republicans! (GDVfR)
Q.E.D.
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oh i'm sorry! ... were you expecting something else? ![]()
well, ok then:
"It's All About The Money" -- Cynicalman (the original)
of course, with Republicans, it amounts to the same thing!
Maybe the government should get out of the Marriage game as it has in school pray. Your believe should guide what a marriage should be (Catholic, Jewish, mother goddress). Everyone would have the right under law to civil partnership.
...except for the fact you are inaccurate.
http://www.lcr.org/
them and Black Republicans, Young Republicans, Queer-Black-Preppie-Save-Alaska Republicans .... ![]()
anything BUT the "Angry Rich White Men of European Descent" Republicans!
LOL
Every great civilization before us seemed to start coming undone when the homosexuals started to gain credibility and power. I'm not a homophobe nor am I making a moral statement or judgement. I'm just presenting an observation on history.
to accept homosexuals as they are and not outcasts, it was at its zenith and there was no way to go but down. So gays and lesbians are not necessary the cause of that decline.
it was possible to illustrate it with historical FACTS (as factual as history can be)
i'm not saying that his claim is definitely FALSE just that it doesn't really strike me as being all that right. i'd have to research it. but frankly i'm tired of pulling out facts to prove the (sometime) obvious truths having to do with political issues
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i'm seeing my long-lost ATF this afternoon! ![]()
screw politix ... time to get bizzy! LOL