Although I'm somewhat of a romantic, I'm under the impression that chivalry is a thing of the past, if it ever truly existed at all.  By that I mean, wasn't chivalry just another form of attempt by men trying to get into a woman's pants disguised under honorable intentions?Here's my dilemma. I recently noticed all the guy's heads turning in the gym while a couple of women walked past the free weights area.  I thinkin, no big deal, one's maybe a 7 and the other a 9 by TER standards. So, as usual, I'm mindin my own business when they come over and say that they'd like to use the Cybex machine when I'm done. I didn't mind them campin out next to me while they waited and I didn't even mind that they wouldn't stop talking either.  What did concern was the following:I finished up and said, "It's all yours ladies" and began walking off, leaving the machine loaded with about 700 lbs., of 45's. Then I hear a whimpering sorta "hey…………. but…………." coming from one of them. I turn around and #7 had this sort of 'HOW RUDE' look on her face and says, "aren't you even going to help us set up the press?" Don't get me wrong, I frequently get asked by women to do their weights for them and I really enjoy helping them. It's just that I don't want to indirectly imply that they not capable of doing for themselves especially when I think they really are. So I NEVER offer help but DO help when asked. I think I've adopted the correct contemporary attitude but not sure- been married too freaking long!

Slick, You fellow gym rat...I'm back at the weights with a vengence too! Doncha love it!Addressing your question...yes etiquette gets confusing...had  a couple of long discussions in the gym with a couple of guys....the other dayIn the gym when it says rack your weights, it's not just for the ladies.   However, I dont expect anyone to baby me through "setting up" a machine. i'm not sure what that involved in the case you mentioned. Butttttttt.... 700 is a lot of weight, Slick! What were you working out?  Hmmm....Whatever it is, it must sure be hard as a rock! yummy.Anyway, for a small woman as myself, or a teenage boy it becomes a project to have to unrack 700# of heavy weights, and at times dangerous. (I'm referencing the large 45 lb plates & especially the 100 lb plates). As a small woman  I always appreciate it when someone racks their weight(when it's that much), knowing that we ladies are going to have to ask someone to help us anyway. (so in other words when  I ask a guy to help me unrack, does that mean i'm trying to get in his pants, lol?)  To answer your question, I don't think it's out of line to be courteous, nor do I especially consider it chivalrous.  just considerate for the next person (under circumstances of extra heavy plates, or sweating all over machines, or going to the gym smelling like a piggy ~ I know you dont do that, but you know what I mean). Conversely, I make an effort to be considerate of others in the gym ... it's no big deal, takes a little extra. Golden rule sort of stuff, and No I'm not doing it to catch a guy.  Anyway, you asked. Watch out now that we pesky women are in free weight area. (So Slick, where can I go watch you pump?)  ;->>xoxoFF--modified by feliciafoxx at Fri, Apr 13, 2001, 13:28:56

I just had an e-mail exchange with a nice southern boy, WHO WILL REMAIN NAMELESS, and when I commented on his chivalry and that of southern men, in general, he responded, "Well, we certainly are chivalrous ... and we just get a rush out of giving an ass-kicking to anyone that messes with our friends of the fairer sex.  Know what I mean?"I also think just about everything men do is rooted in getting into women's panties.BTW, it’s just good form to unrack the weights.  Felicia is a lot sweeter than I am.

is that pump or hump? Answer is yes to both. If you want to pump, I'll get you in with a guest pass- ya know I always enjoy making my male friends envious! Hey, I never use the running machines but if you do I'll take the machine directly behind yours ~ Yeah, I know, I'm such a perv. But it would be good motivation!Anyway, since you asked:1. I always rack my own weights. However, the unwritten rule there seems to be when someone is pacing around you waiting for a piece of equipment you turn it over to them as is. But like I said, I'm happy to unrack for women, it's just that I don't want  to come off sounding like they're not incapable- believe me some of these women are VERY capable (we're talkin buff not petite).2.  I'm not smelly.3.  I always use a towel to keep my sweat off the machines.4.  700# (actually 680# corresponds to squat press).5.  When you ask someone to "unrack" you, I have no idea if you're trying to get into their pants, but....considering YOUR rack, I know what I'd be thinking Seriously, I take casual conversation at face value and don't read into it.Okay so I'll think of myself as being considerate and not worry about coming off with macho/chivalry from now on. I'll just make sure that I'm looking them in the eyes and not..... when I ask "would like me to unrack you".

I just had an e-mail exchange with a nice southern boy, WHO WILL REMAIN NAMELESS, and when I commented on his chivalry and that of southern men, in general, he responded, "Well, we certainly are chivalrous ... and we just get a rush out of giving an ass-kicking to anyone that messes with our friends of the fairer sex.  Know what I mean?"I also think just about everything men do is rooted in getting into women's panties.BTW, it’s just good form to unrack the weights.  Felicia is a lot sweeter than I am.

......but I do unrack!!! Please read above

You give me your guest pass, I'll give you mine

Hump or Pump? Are you referring to that Tshirt, hump'em pump'em dump'em?  ;->>  that is soooo funny.Anyway, at this moment I'm pulling on my sweat socks as we speak ... where do I meet you Slick?You see, knowing you as I do I was perplexed ... you dont come off as macho and rude to me, although now wicked, but that is a desirable trait, you see. Now that you've clarified just how much they were hanging round your equipment (ahem) seems to me that these ladies are the ones who need to read these posts about etiquette. Hovering like that is just as loud and disturbing as asking you questions when you are trying to focus with heavy weights.1)sounds like these ladies are possibly of the boxing and kickboxing variety  ...  I stay away from them. The macho ladies are the type I wont waste breaking a fingernail over. I totally comprehend the scene now.  Geez you probably didn't even want to bother to finish your set, with all their rude hovering (I really hate that behavior)... heheh maybe they were hitting on you, knowing what you look like most likely they were in their own obtuse manner   2)Smelly?  Over my dead stilettos, I hope you know I wasn't talking about you!3)I forget my towel sometimes, use my sweat shirt.4)Squats, I knew it!  Bunz o'steele.  Hurt me wont you!  ;->5)as for racks, it meant something different in my ballerina days, but I like these days better. btw you can take the  machine behind my stairmaster, as I've had to give up running (can you guess why?)I too, try to look a guy in the eyes instead of his ummm, legs.Good luck around these vicious "buffys".  Let me know if you want me to come over with my stilettos and red fingernail daggers to protect ya (just kidding) Bet we could show these guys n' gals a thing er two about etiquette in the gym. Good luck.  But honestly Slick I really do think that at times the gym is a display of the changing social climate.  Keep us updated!Oh and the grocery store too, ever notice? The best place to go shopping for meat, lol.   Last Tuesday nite, "Rock n' Roll Ralph's" (on sunset in HOllywood) was teeming with guys and gals milling about at around 9 p.m.  I got asked on 4 dates in the 20 minutes while I was there ... some really inane conversations ensued, I still am laughing.I'll get off and let someone else have the floor now.xoxoff

eom--modified by feliciafoxx at Fri, Apr 13, 2001, 14:38:49

Could be interesting- I've never booked directly after a workout! Though, taking the stairmaster behind you could end up being a little embarassing for me, but hey, everyone's there to get hard, right! Seriously let's do this. Of course I'm gonna want you to come to my gym instead of going to yours- it'l be sooo much fun making all my friends drool.Actually, I wasn't complaining about the buffies at the gym being rude. The MO there seems to be if someone is waiting for a piece that you're using; when you're done they move in and take it as is. Just didn't know if I should treat the buffies any different than I would the guys. And again I'm always too happy to help load weights on for those petite FF types, but to date I've always waited to be asked rather than offer.So you were a ballerina? Figures, I remember you as being extremely flexable, almost to the point of being a contortionist. Ya know there's alot of stuff that you and I haven't tried yet.........OK, now I've got to get my perverted mind back on work- this is gonna be hard......I mean difficult.Let's see, we'll work out, then go to Starbucks across the street and cool down, then to your place............--modified by slickwillie at Fri, Apr 13, 2001, 15:50:23

men protect the women they hump, I mean love...stop confusing me, slick.;->>ff

Fx2 I will help you with your RACK anyday...I'll also help you move your plates...)

motivated by at least the thought of getting into women's panties.  I think it's a lot higher than any of us would want to admit to (and we ALL do it).  It's not even that we expect it's going to work, either, because 99% of the time it doesn't.  But the sad truth is collectively we just haven't come up with a better way as of yet so we keep changing tires in the rain and moving refrigerators.  And any guy that says he's never done something for a woman with the misplaced hope that somehow his actions were going to get him laid is either a liar or delusional. And women know it too; I remember how depressed my sec'y was when she had a flat tire and couldn't get a guy to stop and change it.  She wasn't depressed about the tire, she was depressed because she was 49 and it was the first time her looks hadn't worked, and it was the confirmation she feared that she was losing it.  The call to join AAA the next day was the hardest call she ever made, and we all paid the price in the office for the next week!

YOu might not believe this, but a few months ago I wanted to put up some curtains, and I needed a drill for the rods. I asked a neighbor if I could borrow his Makita and he asked me when I was taking him to bed.  Do you suppose he misunderstood the type of drill i MEANT?  LOL.   I spose I shoulda let him do the drilling, then ask him what kind of girl he thought I was.  Nevermind.;->>ff--modified by feliciafoxx at Fri, Apr 13, 2001, 19:43:52

Slickwillie,I was raised and still live in the South where chivalry was considered good manners.  You stand when a lady approaches the table, you open doors, pull chairs, assist with strenuous efforts, etc...  And every time I did something "well mannered" I usually at least in the South receive an appropriate response.  And avoided being hit in the head by mother for "forgetting my manners".  A very powerful motivate I might add!As to the motivates of getting laid, at this point it so reflexive that sex is not on my mind at the time.  As to the overall motive for chivalry I think it is driven as much by women’s desires to feel valued and cherished as to men's desire to get laid.  What is also interesting about all this is the fact that women taught me all these things.  I also think that women may to some extent use these actions on our part as a standard of interest.  If he does these things he thinks I am attractive etc...Now several have commented on "of course you re-rack" I can understand your hesitancy because having taken my Southern up bring to Boston for schooling was hell.  As you state the implication of incompetence that can be assumed by certain people based on your actions can only lead to a mess but I still continued with what I was taught despite the negative reactions.  As I told one woman, "think that you are incapable?  I don't think of your capability at all it is just something I do"So in summary I think you will find that chivalry is alive and doing better in some parts of the world than others.I would be curious to ask you one question has a woman ever chastised you for showing good manners?Also ladies, have you ever chastised a man for showing good manners?  Such as opening a door, etc…  Be honest!--jp

Love your post, JP.  No, I have never chastised.  But I have felt uncomfortable on occasion. Sometimes given a shocked look, usually pleasantly shocked.  LA is full of many rude people. I became engaged in a conversation in a Hollywood gym the other night with a man who kept interrupting my sets to introduce himself to me and proceed to ask me why women in L.A. ask him "what do you want" when he asks them out to dinner. Wow, that was a fast forward ... I thought to myself.  Then I wondered momentarily if he was asking me out and decided to focus on his question. He seemed very nice, just,...well let me say that having seen him in conversations with other men, he is intense and passionate about politics, working out, etc.  So that being the nature of that beastie, he might, of course, put off some ladies with that intensity when it comes asking them for a date.I said to him ... "I think that L.A. is like Vegas ... people come here to work and/or make it in the industry, but this is not primarily a residential place where people come to date and/or settle down. In working environments, my feeling is that people mainly prefer to network about their careers, rather than date, while they are struggling to build their careers. "(excluding one night stands of course, of which is what I think he felt he was being accused.)Was I on or off course here?(well, upon rereading this, it sounds disgustingly diplomatic to me, but I  think I diffused the emotions enough to where we could still keep working out comfortably in that atmosphere, and he did lighten up a bit, and we kept smiling, and I think we will always be on cordial terms.  which is what I want as my comfort zone.)  JP, and other gentleman, I think I can speak for many of the ladies as well, I really would hate to see good manners go out the window.   It shows respect and value to others and can and should be taken as such (but everyone need be discriminating, as to who we choose to let into our lives, and how much) A hardwon lesson for me...I used to be friendly to everyone, but boy did I get beat up for it.ff--modified by feliciafoxx at Fri, Apr 13, 2001, 21:32:15

AND LOAN ME YOUR DRILL? ;->>Past MY bedtime, lol.

Fairest Felicia,Thank you and as such from the bard as inspired by you.To open, or not to open: that is the question.Whether ‘tis nobler in eye to sufferThe slings and arrows of outrageous indignation,Or to take the handle against a sea skepticismAnd by opening the door, so let the lady pass.To smile, to frown, to perchance sleep with?To go to the undiscovered country of good manners from whose bourn few travelers traverse.Okay, I think everyone can see that it goes down hill from here or maybe it started going downhill eight lines earlier to be exact.On a more lucid note, I agree to your assessment of the social dynamics at play in a city like L.A. or Vegas or NYC or DC for that fact.  Of course there is a certain defensiveness at play of anybody that lives in a large metropolitan area and it is possible that some of that defense is the falling off of good manners.  I also agree that it seems that manners of the type that is under discussion is a function of geography but also a willingness to endure grief as Slick Willie can attest to and as can many men who have struggled with this issue including myself.I for one will continue to open the door despite it possible downsides but I most admit hearing from women like you and Seagull who appreciate the gesture certainly makes it a lot easier to continue with.As to the intention of the gentleman in your post, as a man I should disclose that the intention of men in the face of beauty and sexuality well… it is challenging to be pure of thought to say the least. Just my opinion.--jp--modified by JP at Fri, Apr 13, 2001, 21:53:37

You're in luck, I move refigerators and do curtin rods too, even if it's raining.  FF, maybe you should do to your neighbor what a friend of mine did to a delivery service driver who kept coming on to her with slimey sexual innuendo week after week.  Warning: don't try this at home kids-  She got so pissed at him she actually callled his bluff, took him inside lied on the bed silent and motionless and let him have his way.  Now there's probably a lot of old married guys reading this and thinking, "what's so bad about that?"  But apparently it was enough to make this driver disappear for good.  She literally never saw him again.  Proof once again that the only thing worse than not having your dreams come true is when they do.I'll charge up my Mikita and hit the 405, assuming no damsel has a flat tire, I can be there in an hour.Regards,G2

Interesting stuff about the South.  The type of Southern manners that you are referring to were instilled upon me from the time I was a child even though I was born in California and for the most part, grew up here- it's changed. I still open doors and so on for women but I guess I'm just perceiving the gym atomosphere as a little different. The sort of statement/message that I feel women like the buffies normally convey is one of: "we're strong, we can lift like men". So who em I to imply they can't by offering help? Now if racking for the buffies is deemed to be the considerate/appropriate response, I'm totally fine with it (it's like second nature to me)- I just didn't know if they would be fine with the hypocrisy.

dear slick...I think I really did confuse you .Slick,  for my next trick I'll open my mouth and put my other foot in it.  Rack your weights, I always thought meant "take your 700# OFF the machine and put them back on the rack, to clear the machine for the next user".  Or at least the bulk of it.  (here I've even worked in gyms, and maybe misunderstood) I didn't think rack yer weights meant rack it for someone else...or well, you are too kind.I envision seeing 700# as 15 plates of 45's, or 7 100# plates, which is quite heavy to *take off the machine from a former user*.  I don't mind removing 4 45's, but 700# worth is a lot, and it would be exhausting for me to have to haul all that weight back to the weight racks.  Simple consideration regardless of a sign on a wall,  might be taking maybe half of that weight off the machine maybe? (I only use 100# for my plie squats)But expected to set a woman's machine up by putting their plates back on the machine?  No way!  xoxoff>--modified by feliciafoxx at Sun, Apr 15, 2001, 02:26:48

Anytime...Just name the place...Also, I work cheap )

Felicia, if are in need of having your fridge moved you seemto have a lot of volunteers, I will sit silently by and waitfor my chance to "move your world!"there, I said it,thats my story, and I'm stickin with it!Lustman

FF,You never cease to amaze me with such keen insight and wisdom beyond your years. It's absolutely amazing that you have this ability to see a problem and seem to solve it so efficiently or have such a keen sharp view to understand people and their motives.I wish I had met you some years before because you seem to know a great deal. This town is a town, not like any other, where people begin their careers or work to succeed, not on a local level but on a world level.And you are right. This is a town of networking and seeing what you can get from the right sources. I did figuire that out the hard way (another story some other time) and gradually I have built my own network (as basic as it is). FF, do you think we can depose Ann Landers or Miss Manners and replace them with you? (we'll wait until they go out of the country and then stage the Coup D'tat..LOL!)

And someone had to do it.--modified by G2 at Sun, Apr 15, 2001, 11:35:17

Sorry Felicia, noone was around to hear that pun 'ceptyou and me on the phones this morning!  I thank G2 forthe coup.Now, who wants to hop down the bunny trail with me today?hmmmmmmmmmmmm?sighLustman

Lustman...the world is upon your shoulders...I'll just take FF smothering me...LOL

discussed wearing pajamas on the roof. That conversation was a hoot!!!  Of course I tied up your cellphone ... what a brainfart, particularly considering my high density consciousness about things like that as pertains to me and other providers.  (I get to receive crumbled crackers for awareness, lol.)Twas delightful chatting, Lustman.  Will watch out for you on the highway as per your secret description.  Also, look for the blonde lady with the ponytail and sunglasses, blasting salsa and chacha thru the open sunroof, and thumping percussion on the dash. Feel free to honk. I love it.xoxoff

Okay G2, I get it.  You are responding to one of my insults, arent you, lol.  Feel better sweety?xoxoff

I'll honk like a goose!(a good straight man knows when to feed his partner a line)Lustman

I didn't know I'd been insulted so it was most certainly not a tit 4 tat (npi).  Are you confessing to something?The key here is that it's a JOKE.  If Lustman said it everyone would be peeing their pants laughing.  Apparently I'm not allowed a sense of humor so I'll just keep posting about LE and agency rip-offs instead.  Let me know when I can join the little club, I have a great sense of humor too. Not smiling anymore,G2

that the emoticon of big grinning smiley face in my previous post helped that out  The last thing I did was take you seriously because I thought what you said was hilarious.I guess it's not always clear when one is joking back.  Sorry I gave you the wrong impression.May I please crawl away and pee in my pants again now?fellow pun lover in fun,xoxoff

eom