I cut and pasted the below message from my home city discussion board here on TER to see what sort of "buzz" it would generate here, on a liverly discussion board with more thoughtful respondants. I am revisiting this topic again because:
1) The NYC provider I make reference to below recently had a review posted, and out of morbid curiousity, I again went to her webpage..where she still has the same very plainly stated policy.
2) For the 2nd time an independent provider specifically asked about my race...and then went out of her way to mention that I would be her 1st or 2nd experience with someone of my ethic background. (The 1st time this occured there was no FS...but I would honestly like to believe the provider had every intention of completing our date had there not been a little unexpected "crimson tide". Insofar as the 2nd...that date is set up for tonight)
I should note that I am no longer a "virgin" to the hobby...this post is from July 2001. However, I am still interested in the insights and opinions of you folks...
Thanks!!
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I am new to the hobby (in fact still a virgin for reasons to be explained) and have only been coming here for a few months to read reviews and save as favorites those which look very promising.
I have a question for providers, and perhaps a few hobbist who can directly relate, though I am thinking that number will be small (again, for reasons to be explained momentarily).
I am an African American man. I have been to a small number (yes, a small number, but the fact that they exist at all gives me pause) of provider web pages that SPECIFICALLY spell out that the provider will entertain WHITE MEN ONLY. I suppose that is their right mind you, but having never seen a provider web page that said the escort would only cater to BLACK MEN, I still feel slighted.
Now, with these small number of webpages in question, none of the ladies there were "my type" to begin with (and we shall leave it at that), so no harm, no foul. But, how am I to know if a more upscale companion, sophistacated enough to know better than to put such detail on her webpage (lest she risk offending others besides black males) feels the same way? How will I deal with her disappointed when she arrives at my door? Will I end up with a less than memorable (but equally costly) experience? I mean...do I REALLY need to point out in preliminary discussions that I am Black? Why should I have to?
I was recently discussing this with a WF friend who dates BM nearly exclusively, and her response was that she thought there might be trouble because, her words, "Black men don't pay for it anyway". Without getting into an analysis of all that statement might mean, her INTENDED implication was that any provider I was to meet might have little to no experience with African American men, and thus would be uncomfortable or ill at ease with the "date". Worse case, she might feel this way but decide to spend her time with (and collect her fee from) me anyway, thus leaving me both unhappy and poorer for the trouble.
How can I avoid this? Any advice from providers? Any advice from hobbist?
bigoted, but I guess it is their right. I would simply throw into the first conversation with a provider that you are African American. Better for you to exclude providers uncomfortable with BM right off the bat. I once had a lady who offered FBSM ask me "are you very hairy?". She stated that she was not comfortable with a man who had a lot of hair on his body. I didn't take offense, but, while I'm not Cheetah, I have enough coverage that I quickly terminated the conversation (why waste time?). We get to choose what providers we call, so our biases are hidden. I happen to like pretty women who are responsive and offer a GFE (go figure). Guess I'm prejudiced against unattractive nonresponsive mechanical providers......but guess someone else may like that type. Bottom line: You have a right to feel slighted, but think of it as her loss, not yours.
In addition to FBSM, I also offering body waxing...just kidding!
But maybe its not a bad idea...(wheels are turning)
"Topless Massage & Body Waxing by Talisa"...hmmm..I like that sound of that!
I myself love all men, you know how the song goes.
What I don't understand is the responds made by your friend that:
"Any provider you were to meet might have little to no experience with African American men, and thus would be uncomfortable or ill at ease with the "date".
Is there something I am missing do black men have sex different then white men? I never thought so...
The only thing I can suggest is when writing a provider you could add that you are a SBM (Single Black Male). It at least would make her aware of your race.
It's a same we were brought up to think different about our races, but thats just the circle of life I suppose.
Please don't ever feel hesitate to call me. As I said I love all men. And if there is something different you do then white men likey me I'm going to get something exrta I didn't expect.
Best of luck,
Hugs,
Tammy
""Any provider you were to meet might have little to no experience with African American men, and thus would be uncomfortable or ill at ease with the "date". ""
Actually, she didn't say it, but I know it is what she meant.
In regards to your question, no, you aren't missing anything, yet you would be AMAZED (then again, maybe you wouldn't be) by the number of women who do think there is some fundamental difference. Want proof? Just check the number of BM / WF websites and chat rooms. Many...MANY WFs actively seek sex with BMs, presumably because they somehow find the experience to be different. I am not looking down on these women...to each their own (and besides, I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite, since I have personally benefited from such web pages and chat rooms in the past) but I have always found it curious.
However...I really don't think that is the issue here. When it comes to escorts (who presumably have had enough sex with enough people to know that a person skin color couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with their sexual nature, even if they have never had sex with anyone outside their own race) I think the issue is stereotypes associated with certain ethnic groups as a whole. I think said escorts make assumptions about African American men...and then decide that these assumptions will lead to behaviors that they prefer to not deal with. We are all individuals of course, yet it is amazing how often we fail to remember that in our dealings with others (self guilty as charged as well).
Then again, maybe it is just out and out racism (I think that is the case with the provider I continually reference in NYC). Why would I not expect that racism would exist in ALL subsets of people within the human race? Divide the population of the planet anyway you'd like...you will find racist. Why would in be different if you limit that sampling to just adult industry professionals?
This is actually a tad beside the point...there is no question that at least SOME providers think it is "noteworthy"...if not necessarily a negative...that I am an African American (Twice I have been asked my race...at least twice I can tell you that I could see the surprise on escorts faces when we first met...). The question is...what am I to do about it to avoid "disappointment, i.e...provider arrives at my door, sees I am Black, thinks to herself "I have never been with a Black man before", and then spends the rest of the evening at less than her best...
I have to reply to your post. Well I just want you to know that I get white clients often that mention that they never experience being with a black womeman before. Personally I really don't care if that is the reason they want my attention because I see no color.
Yes I am a womanofcolor (you already know that) provider who clients are mostly white. This isn't because I discriminate against my own race, I assumed that most black clients perfer white provider. Personally I care less about the reason. I only have two black clients and It's not my fault. I welcome all. I do not discriminate against any race.
So on a personal note (smile)I would like to thank you for the wonderful evening you spent with this womanofcolor. From the Omini hotel to the Tobacco Co. for dinner and back to the omini for romance. To top it off you were a gentleman at heart the entire night. I'm glad you choose me to spend four-six hour with, It was time well spent.
By the way. Thanks for calling the bartender and telling her to give me what ever I wanted while you continue to get dress. (I was early of course) Thanks for the dinner and the conversation. I wont'talk about the roses on the bed when we got back to the room or describe what we did durning and afterward but I tell you....You are one hell of a brother that any women would miss out on for not taking you up on an invitation for a evening out. Wow how impressive.
If I were you I would avoid the provider that post such info on race. They are not worth your time.......Trust me I know
-- Modified on 3/27/2002 9:39:49 PM
To MLAM,
I met a man that I had a long phone only conversation. He wanted to state something before we met vis-a-vis. He was a black man and wasn't like the others, He loves oral!!! I was surprised, as I didn't know the differences in racial groups and sexual habits.I had no idea, so I couldn't comment one way or the other.
Perhaps as the others have said, it is not always vicious but hopefully a chance to grow. I hope you do well.
Chrissie Dahl
PS. He was the absolute favorite of mine, even those he was greatly my senior. I am Middle Eastern, btw.
I dont see any reason why you should have to announce your race in advance.
It is not like being black is a condition which requires an advance warning to people. You have the right to expect courteous treatment from anyone you see, providing you are courteous yourself.
By the same token, I feel that a provider has the right to choose her customers, and is she wants to discriminate against certain races of men, that is her right. However, she should be the one offering the warning if she plans discriminate based on skin color. Not you. If there is no warning given, you should be able to expect that she will treat you same as any other customer. As we know however, thre are all kinds of people in this world.
Best thing I would suggest is to stick with well reviewed providers.
There is a certain African American provider, reviewed here, who states on her website that she will only see WHITE men. Go figure. From speaking with her she is not someone I would want to be with anyway, as she treats anyone who doesnt fit her client profile like dirt. Nevertheless, everyone has the right to screen potential clients as they see fit. If their criteria offends you, you're better off not seeing them. And by the way, in the old days of the LA Xpress, before the Internet, there were several ads that specifically stated a preference for black men. I haven't come across any such ads on the Internet, but I'm sure there are plenty of women out there with such a preference (your friend being an example).
card
I don't know if it is the same provider but if you go to the New York discussion board back to the July / August 2001 timeframe, you will find that I got into a debate with a provider who was EXACTLY that...and African American woman who expressed a preference for WM on her web page. In the midst of our flaming war, she admitted two things 1) That she did indeed have an African American regular and 2) That she felt that African American men would not be willing to pay (what she thought was a high) fee (it isn't, but what is expensive to me might not be to you, etc.)
Now, while I kinda figure the WF / BM (or the converse) makes no sense but is probably rooted in a combination of ignorance, prejudice and racism, a person discriminating against her OWN race is just f**king stupid, and I told her as much. Frankly, I still believe the woman has issues...maybe her father used to abuse her, so now she hates BM, who knows? No doubt though that the girl needs therapy....
You would think that providers like to see
black men more, simply because black men are usually better
equiped down there and most likely give
her more pleasure and generally a better time.
Heck, they may even give you a refund !
If you want to ensure that your race won’t matter (and it wouldn’t in a perfect world), it might behoove you to follow poconotam’s suggestion that you casually mention your race while setting your appointment. I’ll never forget finishing a perfect session with a favorite provider when she took a phone call from a black male and suggested that he look elsewhere. When she hung up, I was shocked that this intelligent, beautiful woman unleashed a stream of bigotry towards black men. Needless to say, I never saw her again.
It’s your dime and the only way to be sure is to ask!
Unlike college admission or a job application, this particular hobby has a unique personal aspect and an intimate aspect such that personal preferences must be respected. Just as a hobbyist chooses who to contact based on purely personal and idiosyncratic preferences (which are frequently very specific), a provider should be able to have her own preferences and if need be decline anybody for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. Otherwise, the encounter will be a bad experience for provider and hobbyist alike.
When I contact a provider new to me, I always provide information about my race (I am a SWM), age, height, weight, occupation, and basic info like that, as a courtesy to the provider and her exclusion criteria. If I don't fit the criteria (age for me has occasionally been an issue, I am too young for some), I will know off the bat (normally I don't get a reply). That's OK, because I want the meeting to work. I do not benefit by having a meeting begrudgingly.
So my advice is to give all relevant info in the introducory e mail.
I highly recommend stating upfront your race when scheduling a date. There are more providers than you think that will not date black males incuding black females. It is better to be upfront then to arrive at the door for the date and be disappointed, turned away or worse.
Many black males or other ethnicities that were upfront about their race when attempting to schedule a date have been referred to me because particular providers refuse to date them. Yes, these clients were referred to by providers.
I feel your pain and am sorry to hear anyone has to deal with this. On the other side, I have no idea of white males (of course it's such the skin color, as we all have some heritage/race) are rejected by any black providers.
I am of a multiheritage. I'm a Black American Indian with German and Irish genes. Generally, I advertise as Black American which is my primary makeup. Most of my clients are of another race (meaning not Black - again just the color of a persons skin, not their race). Part of the reason for this is because many black males in the hobby feel black females are not approachable. There are also white males that are not confident in approaching black females because of their uncertainty as to whether we will see them. I do receive calls in which white males will ask if I date white men. Yes, I most certain do. You are a man and I love men.
I suppose because of my heritage I'm not racist over any race. No race is better than any other. It's just a part of us that makes us unique. All races are welcomed to date me. Because of this great concern of the issue of race, I do post on ads -- Men and couples of all races welcomed. I currently don't have a website, so can post the notice there but I would if a site was available.
Race criteria is something I believe every agency and provider should post on their sites, ads, etc. It eliminates problems and time in the long run.
First, let me say that I "DO" see Black Men...But ONLY Black Men 40+. I am an African American Female and most of my clients are White Men (some Asian, some Hispanic). I only see white/asian/hispanic clients who are 35+ (with the occassional exception) so there is a little age discrimination there :0) wink'
I think we are all "skimming" the surface of this issue, blaming it on racism or inexperience...As a Black Woman I can tell you what experiences I (and other black female providers) have had.
From what I've read so far you are a great guy, and you probably cant imagine disrespecting a woman (provider or not). And because you can not imagine being a jerk, you cant see that other black men may be jerks to us "sisters" and other providers. Actually you'd think they'd give us a little more respect being the same race...hmmmm.
Basically...Our younger brothers are "a trip"! Younger brothers "act up" so much that they f**k it up for everybody else. We get these "horrendous" phone calls from "Snoop Doggy Dogg" wannabe's who are calling us bitches and ho's (I'm serious!)- give me a break.
NOT EVERY YOUNG BROTHER DOES THE FOLLOWING, BUT ENOUGH OF THEM DO TO MAKE US NOT WANT TO SEE THEM...
1. They call and talk "crazy" (e.g.: S'up, Aw girl I want to hit that a** tonight baby let's hook up" (Click! I hang up the phone) I wont be disrespected by anyone...black or white.
2. They want discounts. They just dont bother to read the website page that says "rates non negotiable". They dont seem to care. "You" can afford our rates but remember, not everyone can afford the fee (black or white). I wont negotiate my rates with white/asian/hispanic men either.
3. They want to "Bust the bottom out" - I LOVE SEX and I'm down for a good hour of "fun" but DAMN! By the time you are done with a young brother you cant walk! :0) You cant take calls for a day or so! ouch! :0)~
4. They want to do and insist on getting services you DONT provide - The provider will say she doesnt speak greek on the phone (or what ever it is she doesnt do) and when they get there they want to do it...and INSIST on doing it. It's extremely intimidating (even as a black woman) to have a black man towering over you (I'm only 5'4) and insisting on a service you dont provide. What am I going to do, Call the police?????
The reason I see OLDER Black Men is because they are like yourself. They are respectful on the phone, they show up on time, they pay the fee without a hassle, they take their whole hour which is fine (and I can walk afterwards) and they go home. The Perfect Client.
This whole post is to say I really dont think it's a RACE issue, I think it's a "I dont want to be bothered with the hassles" issue. I dont take crap from jerks white or black. On the phone you are just "A black guy"...We dont know how wonderful you are...how could we?????
One thing that might help you is REFERENCES! If you can get an appointment with one of the top girls ask her if you can use her as a reference...Its a GREAT system! I have been sent some clients from top providers (clients I initially turned away), but with a reference from a known provider it is so much easier to get in the door (figuratively and literally). In one of the previous posts the provider has apparently seen you before (and had nothing but good things to say about the experience)...perhaps you can use her as a reference.
I'm sorry sisters and other providers have "Black listed you" (so to speak). But I think that getting this issue out in the open will go a long way to resolving it. Dont give up on us :0)
my .02 cents
Sable
-- Modified on 3/28/2002 2:58:49 AM
-- Modified on 3/28/2002 3:12:06 AM
hmmm... I'm not sure how to take this, your post scared me a bit. I am a b/f and where I am from I have never had this problem with black males. I have had one friend tell me to never ever see a black man in the States.
As far as a lady not wanting to see a certain race. I believe that it is her right.As long as she posts somewhere her "rule", I don't see a problem with it. Same goes for the clients who prefer not to see me because I am black. People like what they like and shouldn't feel guilt because of it. Am I going to run my ads in a place where I know clients prefer only Asians? No.
As far as seeing only older men. Almost all younger men of any race have a great deal of energy on a date. If the gentleman is nice and can provide me with the correct ID, I will see him. I just do an exta hour of yoga before the date
And of course I would never tell anyone NOT to see a certain race (for any reason). My only intention was to say again that I do not think this is a RACE thing, I think it's a Bad Behavior thing. If a White/Hispanic/Asian man displays bad behavior I wont see them either.
As far as age goes, I just like mature men (even in my personal life...my lover is 45). Like you said, we all have our preferences. :0)
ps. Love your Website!
I understand everything you said...but I can't agree....
I guess I should clarify for everyone in the thread that the woman *I* was referring to that doesn't see African American men was NOT a woman of color herself.
Having said that, and moving on to your post, I COMPLETELY understand your sentiments. My problem is that the behavior you have described has NOTHING to do with race.
I can indeed imagine guys being jerks...guys can be jerks. But being a jerk has nothing at all to do with your ethnic make up. (I do agree with you though that "brothas" should show "sistas" a little "extra" respect...but that is neither here nor there).
The behaviors you describe are deplorable and completely unacceptable. You are ABSOLUTELY correct to not tolerate them. The first rule of ANY human interaction...even in war...is respect for the other person.
But those behaviors have nothing to do with race OR age. A fool is a fool is a fool...independent of his (or her) race or age. Brotha to sista...we BOTH know some OLD fools...those that think standing on a street corner is a job, that think any and every woman they meet is a candidate for sex, that feel everything and everybody (especially "the man") is responsible for their less than desirous plight...everyone that is, except themselves, that think any opportunity to "get over" is an opportunity to get ahead.
Sure, these guys aren't "thugged out"...at least not often (though SOME old fools roll like that...it just shows their foolishness). But they still think "Baby" and "Bitch" are interchangeable words, they still want something for nothing, and they still feel a life without drama...for themselves and others...is not a life at all.
BUT...these fools...young and old...come in all colors, creeds, shades and races. They aren't all African Americans, by either definition or by default. The attributes you describe have been used to stereotype LOTS of people...Italians, Irish, Latinos, etc. A fool is a fool, is a fool. It is wrong...and hurtful...for you to ascribe them to "just us".
Now...I ain't tryin' ta hate...I KNOW what you are talking about in your post. And you absolutely should have no time for such behavior.
My point though is that you should judge on the BEHAVIOR...not the person, not the age, not the race. If a person's BEHAVIOR characterizes them as someone you rather not deal with because they are likely to be a "hassle", then you should cut them off at the pass. But...just because I happen to be...oh...let's say 35 and African American...why rule me out? I sure hope you wouldn't because I just went to your web page, and you look like my fantasy indeed (I just get weak for a woman with a WOMAN's body...)
One more thing...shared in love...brotha to sista...
"It's extremely intimidating (even as a black woman) to have a black man towering over you"
Dearheart, as a large black man, I have enough problems dealing with people everyday who are "intimidated" for no good reason. I can't get a taxi; I get funny looks on the elevator, etc. Don't perpetuate the stereotype sweetie...lets assume ANY man towering over you would be "intimidating" and leave it at that, shall we?
My .02 cents change for yours...
First of all, we can debate this issue into the ground but it wont change anything...You'll still have trouble getting serviced by providers. (I'm telling ya', you really ought to look into using provider references)
You said: Dearheart, as a large black man, I have enough problems dealing with people everyday who are "intimidated" for no good reason. I can't get a taxi; I get funny looks on the elevator, etc. Don't perpetuate the stereotype sweetie...
That is my point. WE LIVE IT EVERY DAY! It's not a stereotype...IT'S REALITY! When I'm a victim of "Racial Steering" (Not getting a nice apartment I can afford etc. simply because I am black) or any other racial discrimination, I know that "that's just the way it is"...It doesn’t bother me that much anymore. Getting mad about it doesn’t change it. I just keep looking until I find a place that will rent to me, etc.
I had one client call, pass his screening & verification, show up at my door...and he was black. He was a schoolteacher and very articulate, I did not pick up on the phone that he was black. Because of his age (mid 40's) and obvious desire to endear himself to me...I went on ahead with the appointment. Let me reiterate that "I SEE BLACK MEN" - But I would have appreciated it if he had told me he was black. I found his keeping that one little bit of information to himself to be deceptive. Why? That's just as if I placed an Ad with no picture in a newspaper, calling myself "Summer" or "Amber", making appointments with men (by the way I am very articulate also) and showing up at the door..."Oh, by the way I'm black". That would be deceptive. I wouldn’t expect many of them to open the door, and they have a right not to.
Secondly, my EXACT QUOTE was: And of course I would never tell anyone NOT to see a certain race (for any reason). My only intention was to say again that I do not think this is a RACE thing, I think it's a Bad Behavior thing.
It is not a RACE thing; It’s a Behavior issue. You can get mad at us providers (excuse my bad English) but we are just a micro-cosm (sp?) of society. Racism still exists in this society, why wouldn’t it spill into our industry?
On the other hand regarding my age requirements (not seeing black men under 40)...
You Said...I sure hope you wouldn't because I just went to your web page, and you look like my fantasy indeed (I just get weak for a woman with a WOMAN's body...)
I'm flattered.lol! ;0) All this "back and forth" has gotten me interested in meeting you, ever get to Vegas? lol :0)~
My age requirements are just Guidelines! "All" of our "requirements are just guidelines we providers use!!! Whether you get an appointment or not depends on how the initial conversation goes. I've had an 18 year old client (and I really put him through ringer with my screening process...if I'm not mistaken 16 year olds can legally consent to sex in Nevada...but even I don’t need the money that badly! Ick!) I have a several regulars who are 23, 28 and 30. How did they get past my "age" requirements? They acted maturely, they followed ALL my rules, and they passed my screening process. Just GUIDELINES! Ya' gotta draw the line somewhere! :0)
And lastly you said: BUT...these fools...young and old...come in all colors, creeds, shades and races. They aren't all African Americans, by either definition or by default. The attributes you describe have been used to stereotype LOTS of people...Italians, Irish, Latinos, etc. A fool is a fool, is a fool. It is wrong...and hurtful...for you to ascribe them to "just us".
No I do not ascribe them to just blacks...we were talking about blacks...I said in my post that I wont take bad behavior from ANY race. Most racial jokes are "Insert Race Here" types anyway. Yes it's hurtful. As a black woman I don’t have it much easier than you do. You are clearly an educated man...but unfortunately in America you are BLACK first...and that often means being a second-class citizen no matter what level of education you have.
We're not going to find the answer today, tomorrow or even next year. When this post is long gone you still wont be able to get a taxicab and I still wont be able to get a salesclerk to wait on me (or stop following me around the store).
Sable
The "stereotype" I was referencing that you were perpetuating is that a large black man is someone to fear. I would guess that a large man under the circumstances you were describing would be someone to fear INDEPENDENT of their race. Thus, there is no need to add the additional qualification. It is a stereotype... it is NOT reality... that black men are by definition more dangerous than other men. I would again offer the same analysis that I gave Professor Night...if you split the "pie" using any OTHER knife versus race (most notably economic status), you will find that the differences between races in regards to crime are small indeed. So...once you have qualified a potential client on whatever other criteria you chose to use (and I absolutely stand by your right to do so), you should find that race ultimately doesn't matter (your 40 something teacher stands as case in point). Or...let me pose the question this way...have you ever had a problem with an African American client that passed your screening process that you DIDN'T have with a client of another race?
When you are a victim of "racial steering" and chose not to get mad, you are validating the behavior of those who steered you. Getting mad about it is EXACTLY what changes it. Ever heard of the civil rights movement? Where would we be today if those brave souls who came before us chose to "not get mad"?
Regarding your articulate client and expecting that he should have told you he was Black? Why? Do you expect your white clients to tell you they are white? Asian clients to tell you they are Asian? As you explained, his race ended up not being a factor whatsoever (except for your initial surprise). Why was his not mentioning his race "deceptive"? When your white clients fail to mention it, are they being "deceptive"?
The analogy you draw by hiding you race if you were to fail to display a picture doesn't work. You are the service provider - the client has a right to "buy" whatever "type" of service he sees fit. He SHOULD know what he is buying, for whatever his reasons maybe.
As the service provider however, I think you should be providing "service" to whoever qualifies via the criteria you select. Again, you ABSOLUTELY have a right to have a set of qualifications...a screening process that includes a need to feel "comfortable"...a warm fuzzy. But if a person meets those criteria...if they do leave you feeling good about them after the initial contact(s)...what difference does their race make? Do they suddenly become a different person because of the amount of pigment in their skin? Your logic strikes me as no different than the salesclerk who chose to not wait on you because she "assumes" (via stereotypes) certain things about you, even as you stand there money in hand waiting to make a purchase.
You are right; when this post is long gone some things will still be the same. But I don't have to accept that...in fact I refuse to. If just one provider going through this thread thinks to herself "you know, he has a point...why should I not see black guys just because they are black?" then I will have accomplished something. If one hobbyist says to himself "man...you know...he has a point...that gal I have been seeing really isn't right for being that way...I am not like that, and I can't support her being like that either", then I will have accomplished something.
Most critically though...if by some MIRICLE I were to get you to give it some thought...to apply how you feel when you are turned down for an apartment you can afford, or fail to be serviced by a salesclerk, or followed around a store, to how *I* might feel when I call you, and somehow you learn that I am African American (I would NEVER tell unless I was asked...I will not subscribe to the notion that it makes a difference by being a part of the process) and you decide this means I am "different" than what you had thought or felt about me until that moment...then I will have accomplished a great deal.
...like their idols, Biggie and Tupac.
I'd want nothing to do with a mentality either that requires you be capped dead by the time you're 30.
Thanks for the insight. For those who think I'm being overly insensitive, see my post below in this thread.
One other thing-all younger guys I know look for discounts. They're not as established financially as an older guy might be, they make less money, so the fee actually is more important to them. It's not about what you're worth, but what they can afford. If you don't want to work with that, cool, but that's where it's usually coming from.
Maybe it's better to think in personal terms (the provider turned you down because she didn't feel comfortable with you), than institutional terms (the provider won't see black men at all).
Being black has other problems as well. I know of several incall services and providers in Los Angeles who will not see black men because of the fear of being robbed. Yes, there is history behind this. They have nothing against black men in general, and one of the ladies I'm thinking of is white and dates black men exclusively. They just don't want to get jacked and are simply taking no chances.
A black friend of mine who is very active in the hobby seems to do alright with women of all persuasions.
One TBD Top Ten provider, one well known on TER as well, turned down a friend of mine at appointment time due to his nationality-after screening him hard. While men of his nationality are famous the world over for being very difficult clients, it seems ludicrous to me that you check a guy out, and then decide that you don't want to see him.
You can't make people happy all of the time. I am white, but have been discriminated against by Asian providers both here and abroad. There's nothing you can do about it, all you can think is there but the grace of God go you and I.
What nationality is that, by the way? I wasn't aware of this type of reputation. Just curious.
"Maybe it's better to think in personal terms (the provider turned you down because she didn't feel comfortable with you), than institutional terms (the provider won't see black men at all). "
I never said that *I* had been turned down...I said that the provider in questions posts on her website for all to see that she will not see Black men (she even offers what she considers to be a logical explanation as to why). So it is exactly the opposite of your premise.
I in fact have never been declined based on race. I pointed out that I have been ASKED what my race was...but on both occasions the provider absolutely gave the impression that they intended to provide service. In both cases no service took place, but I consider that sheer coincidence. The first time the provider came over from NJ...had dinner with me...volunteered to service me despite receiving her "." by surprise - I declined - refused the $50 I offered her for her time (I finally forced her to take it) and then called me for two weeks afterwards to make chit chat (though we never actually rescheduled). On the 2nd occasion...this week...the provider cancelled when she got a flat tire, but called twice to ask about rescheduling. I ended up seeing someone else, so I elected to not reschedule with her.
I *DO* think though that I would be refused more often if agencies or providers KNEW I was Black. I live in an exclusive part of New York, with a prestigious address. I am an educated person...while I make no pretense to be anything other than what I am when I speak, the person who I am is the same as the person who is typing here. I typically speak in casual conversational English...little slang...certainly no "Ebonics". My guess is that since so many people think in terms of stereotypes, they simply ever think that I could be anything other than white...and are thus surprised when they arrive at my apartment As I mentioned, a couple times that surprise has been very evident. To be fair though, I must say that BOTH those "dates" turned out very well. I don't think the providers were prejudice (at least not in the typical definition of the word). One commented on how handsome I was, and how this pleased her. The other gave a very strong vibe that she dates African American men outside the hobby, and directly mentioned another hobbyist whom I have corresponded with and who I know is Black.
"Being black has other problems as well. I know of several incall services and providers in Los Angeles who will not see black men because of the fear of being robbed. Yes, there is history behind this. They have nothing against black men in general, and one of the ladies I'm thinking of is white and dates black men exclusively. They just don't want to get jacked and are simply taking no chances."
This is prejudice at its worse. Only Black men rob people? I think not. As I noted below with Sweetsable, I can certainly understand why a provider would chose not to see someone after a conversation led them to feel like there might be trouble...but to exclude SOLELY based on race? That is discrimination...and the fact that your friend "dates" Black men doesn't make it better. She is just as narrow minded.
White men are almost exclusively members of hate groups...am I to assume that means every white man I meet is a racist? It is flawed logic.
I understand what you are saying re: Asian providers. I would like to see one myself, but I really don't want the hassle (my "prejudice is that Asians are prejudice...which makes me pretty narrow minded as well).
I guess my point of the tread was to express amazement that there are providers so brazen as to ADVERTISE that they are racist (I have seen similar statements re: "White Men Only" on other web pages...mostly for southern providers). I am also amazed that such ladies stay in business...but I guess if you aren't the one being slighted, why care, huh?
"This is prejudice at its worse. Only Black men rob people? I think not. As I noted below with Sweetsable, I can certainly understand why a provider would chose not to see someone after a conversation led them to feel like there might be trouble...but to exclude SOLELY based on race? That is discrimination...and the fact that your friend "dates" Black men doesn't make it better. She is just as narrow minded."
Wow...holy distortion, Batman! In Los Angeles over the last five years, there have been several groups who have robbed (and raped) providers-most were black, one group was Israeli. It made the local papers. What you call discrimination they would call risk management. Being trained as a lawyer, I get a little testy when someone takes something which is fairly plain by its meaning and tries to give it new life. Let me put it this way then...if they knew you were a legitimate client, then it would be no problem getting serviced.
Let's play judge for a second and you tell me which is worse-being discriminated against, because the pigment of your skin is the same as the local Crips set, or Doing The Right Thing and ending up one night getting robbed and your girls raped by the same local Crips set. Which is the bigger crime in the context of this discussion?
I am not black, so I do not know what it is like to be black. If a provider does not want my business, that's certainly no problem at all. I cannot help their ignorance.
In LA, some Asian houses (mostly private owned by chinese or SE Asian) will only admit those of their kind, which puts you ans I in the same boat. The Korean places, particularly those in minority neighborhoods are just like the Hard Rock Cafe...love all, serve all....
If you wish to continue this [email protected]
"if they knew you were a legitimate client, then it would be no problem getting serviced."
This is all I ask. And since I *WOULD* be a legitimate client, then I *SHOULD* expect to be serviced.
However it is that my guess is that after speaking with me on the phone to get logistics and what have you, I would be invited right over. I would drive up in my nice but not outrageously expensive or ornately adored (save my the rear window sticker signifying me as a member of my alma maters alumni association) imported sports sedan, step out of the car in my Cole Hahn loafers, wearing Dockers Khakis and a Polo golf shirt, walk in, ask for the person whom I spoke to over the phone so that I could conduct business, and be told that this person doesn't exist, and oh by the way, we only give therapeutic massage, and yeah, right now we are closed for lunch break. Meanwhile, some Eminem (sp?) wanna be will pull up in his thugged out Escalade, hop out in Fubu sweats and Timberland boots with 3 of his hommies, all with more bling bling than Tiffany's, and because he can (and will, because it is his nature) flash a huge wad of hundreds, get serviced right away (I prefer to keep my money in a bank, versus my pocket, thank you). Oh yeah, he'll also get serviced because he and his crew are not Black.
What others would call "risk management", I would call stupid. My being African American does not make me a criminal, or even more likely to be a criminal. Criminal behavior is most predominately defined by economic class, and other social factors (such as environment, urban versus rural) not by race. Indeed, one could make a case that crime (such as drug use) is HIGHER among non minorities once you reach a certain income bracket, because minorities have more at stake, and thus risk less. I sure as hell am not going to hold up anybody...I have too much at stake. How often do middle class and upper middle class white males commit such crimes for the thrill however?
Regarding being "judge"...I understand your point. My point though is that choosing clients JUST based on skin color isn't going to help (as the shop that was raided by the Israeli’s found out).
Again, I have no problem with selecting clients based on what a provider or shop has in the way of a comfort level. If a guy gives you the creeps, then turn him away.
But the color of a person skin should NOT be the creep factor. If it is...if a person thinks "purse snatcher" every time you see a Black man running for a bus, then they are wrong. Nothing about me would signify to anyone with a brain that I am looking to cause trouble. Not my mannerisms, not my dress, not my speech. The only thing that can (and sometimes is) held against me is the color of my skin and the size of my frame (a bad combination for some, as I have learned). My question is...why me, and not the "Tony Soprano wanna be" standing behind me?
You are so tuned! I could not have said it better myself. Are you a VIP member? Do you have access to private email on this board?
Up to high for you to hear. But what the professor was explaining is that right now at this particular point in time there is a black man going around Los Angeles booking sessions seeing providers and then when the session is over robbing them at gun point and threatening to come back if they decide to do anything about it. Part of this man's make is that he speaks without any hint of ethnic in his speech in one post the provider stated she thought maybe he had someone white calling for him because it was not detected this has been going on for over a year now with many girls becoming victums of this criminal. Now that said if you cannot understand why women in Los Angeles are afraid to see anyone of color you have obviously never been held up at gun point lucky you some of the rest of us have not been so fortunate!
I was robbed at gunpoint along with 2 girls and a client in an incall location about 6 years ago. The 2 robbers were african american and were caught, tried and convicted. This happened in the San Fernando Valley.
If anyone wants to contact me: [email protected]
I understand EVERYTHING that has been said. None of it changes my point.
Let me try a different tact.
Above is a thread in which I explain that EVERY ASP I have come to know (some on a personal level outside the business) has expressed to me some level of financial distress. Others decided that I was also implying that every escort was a drug user...I never said that...but that is not central to this point.
Many ladies have posted to say that what they felt my experience was an unfair characterization of them as a group. Point well taken. However, my statements were based on a sample size of over 10 women. A very small percentage of all ASPs (which is why I stated each time that I was sure there were exceptions). But...the batting average for me has been very high (say 100%).
Now...you say there is ONE GUY running around LA robbing Escorts who happens to be Black. Are you prepared to say that this person is the ONLY man robbing escorts? Are you prepared to say that the majority of Black clients rob escorts? Are you prepared to say the majority of Black clients YOU have seen robbed you?
So...my point is...if a white guy robbing escorts (and I would bet my LIFE it has happened) doesn't preclude white men from receiving service, why would the same for a Black man change the rules? Seems to me that the majority of crimes I have heard of (and I don't exactly follow this sort of thing, but I am sure some of you ladies do) being perpetuated against ASPs (stalkers, rapists, etc,) are committed by white men. Does anyone disagree?
For these ladies who were threatened, clearly they have suffered a tragedy. But...with proper screening, could this not have been prevented? If not...then how will not seeing Black clients help? Ah...if you don't see any Black clients...then you won't see THIS guy. Fair enough. But how would that protect you against others? If I were a devious but enterprising white guy, I would use such shortsightedness to my advantage...
I have no walls dear...only the barriers of reasonable logic. Deciding to not see Black clients is NOT going to protect you from all the risks inherent to your line of work...and in fact probably would give you a false sense of security.
There is a thread on this board in latter pages speaking to how providers can no longer be taken home to "meet mom". The general sentiment seems to be that this is unfair...that being labeled and looked down on because of stereotypes do not provide the fair opportunity to be judged on your own merit as an individual. What a novel concept, huh?
Now at least I know that your agrument is just that for the sake of argument and not pertaining to the real world. I say this because while it is entirely possible for a white man to carry a gun and rob working girls that has not been the situation to date therefore no extra measure of caution is warrented at this time for white clients. Please do not misunderstand I am in no way trying to make light of the situation you find yourself faced with on a daily basis but by the same token do not make light of our very real fear of the situation going on here in LA. I honestly wish it were a white guy instead of an african american ( is that considered politically correct or is it person of color what if your from Barbados you wouldn't be african american) anyway not the point of the excercise. I do understand what your saying but you are saying it with a lack of compassion which in LA right now is not going to win you any points for chilvary.
You said: There is a thread on this board in latter pages speaking to how providers can no longer be taken home to "meet mom". I was the author of that thread. Just wanted to throw that in...:0)
I just dont understand how it is my right OUTSIDE this business to choose who I want to sleep with, but when I am IN this business I have to service everyone who calls. This Industry is not Legal, I dont have to be an EOF (Equal Opportunity F*cker).
I know...before you blow your stack please consider this. I HAVE A BROTHER, UNCLES, COUSINS all black. I've been around black men all my life (of course) and have no problem with black men. I've only read about picking cotton, my father had to pick cotton. I've only read about sitting at the back of the bus, my mother had to sit in the back of the bus. And if you think I dont appreciate the sacrifices (and lives lost) of the Civil Rights movement you are wrong. Thank God for Martin Luther King/Malcom X and the Civil Rights Movement. Because of the people who came before me I will never know the discrimination my parents knew. And because of what people all across the country are doing now for the civil rights movement my niece and nephews (I have no kids) will never know the discrimination I've been subjected to. But I pick my battles! If I took EVERY company, institution and/or person who discriminated against me to court I'd be one "suing sister". I'd be in court every other day. They dont want to rent to me?, who cares????? That's not the only apartment complex in Las Vegas. Besides, let's say I did "raise a raucous"... a law suit is a nice way to start a tenant/landlord relationship dont you think? (sarcasm). Why would I incur legal fees and the wrath of my new lanlord for an apartment? Someone will rent to me. I pick my battles. Not everything is worth fighting for.
Yes...white men stalk, rob and murder (Ted Bundy is the poster boy for white serial killers). I always talk about THE GREEN RIVER KILLER, a WHITE Serial Killer who preyed primarily on streetwalkers before they caught him (actually they only "think" they caught him). Links below.
http://www.karisable.com/greenriver.htm
(there are many more sites about the Green River Killer)
So no, brothers are not the only one committing crimes against providers but the STORIES and WARNINGS we providers get are primarily about black men. As far as Black Men getting serviced by providers I'll say it one more time and leave it alone...
OTHER BLACK MEN ARE F*CKING IT UP FOR EVERYBODY.
Again... a lot of Providers (and an extremely large segment of society) are AFRAID of black men. You say yourself that women get nervous when you get into an elevator, you cant get a taxicab because you are a black man...THAT IS REALITY (not a stereotype). The reality is that people are afraid of black men.
I'm not getting that point across well am I? Let me attempt to break it down.
1. You are a black man
2. People are afraid of black men
3. You're going to have problems (in this industry and others)
These are OUR Bodies. We have a right to say who can touch it and who cant touch it. Our industry is not subject to the anti- discrimination laws of our nation. I know it's ODD that as a black woman I am taking this side of the issue, but it's my body...and my business (as an independent). ANY man has the right to "NOT" to call me if he doesnt like black women, why then dont providers have the right not to accept appointments if they dont want to see a certain race or type (ie: black men, latin men, asian men, bi men, overweight men, etc) of men? Do you think blacks are the only ones with this issue? I personally know of a white provider who wont see asian men (her reason is: "I just dont do that") and that is her right. I see black men! I see white men. I see asian men. I see latin men. I DONT DISCRIMINATE. If you can pass my screening process I'll see you. Providers have a right to open their doors (and their bodies) to whomever they choose to.
You seem like a great guy. Even though we clearly dont agree on this issue I would love to talk to you...email me off board, we can talk about other subjects! (I'm serious). You seem to want to change all of our minds now...today. "Not gonna happen".
Men like you have to lead the way to fixing the problem. You have to find a way "AROUND" the problem because you are not going to change a prejudice that is INGRAINED in our society (and is obviously a part of our industry as well) any time soon.
Sable
-- Modified on 3/31/2002 10:21:18 PM
-- Modified on 3/31/2002 11:02:20 PM
"There is a thread on this board in latter pages speaking to how providers can no longer be taken home to "meet mom". I was the author of that thread. Just wanted to throw that in...:0)"
I knew that...
"I just dont understand how it is my right OUTSIDE this business to choose who I want to sleep with, but when I am IN this business I have to service everyone who calls. This Industry is not Legal, I dont have to be an EOF (Equal Opportunity F*cker)."
I never said that you had to be. I said you SHOULD decline to see anyone who made you feel uncomfortable. My point was that a persons race...ALONE...should not be that thing that makes you feel that way...and if it is, that is a problem.
That not withstanding though, the more central discussion point, aside from my personal belief that you have this right, is that you are providing a service. Outside the industry, you are establishing a personal relationship. INSIDE the industry, you are conducting business. So...just like EVERY OTHER BUSINESS is compelled by law (I grant this doesn't apply to you) and ethics to provide service to anyone who can afford it and is willing to abide by whatever rules or guidlines are imposed ON ALL CUSTOEMRS, so should, in theory, providers.
Now, again, I'm not an idoit. This is a *special* business. And I will go to provider court and stand on the picket line right beside you to fight for your right to chose to not see a client for whatever reason, because your safety is at stake (we will for now not make the arguement about your having chosen this life...and presumably knowing its risks). My point is that deciding to not see a client STRICTLY based on a persons skin pigment is prejudce at its worse...and is particularly hurtful when practiced by someone who should know what that sting feels like.
"But I pick my battles!"
Of course you do. We all do. I am not suggesting you should go to court every time you are unfairly slighted. You don't have to even say anything necessarily...why waste time and energy on fools? But you SHOULD...even with a glance...let someone who has done you an injustice KNOW that they have done so. I AM suggesting you should get mad. You don't have to like injustice, ignorance, prejudce. You don't have to accept it, you don't have to tolorate it. And more importantly, you should never let YOUR heart and soul become numb to injustice...never just let it roll off your back without affecting you, making you "mad", if for but a moment. Because if "we" don't hold "them" accountable, who will? If "we" don't make "them" feel uncomfortable, in some small way, as they have done to us, how will they know that what has occurred is wrong?
"1. You are a black man
2. People are afraid of black men
3. You're going to have problems (in this industry and others)"
While all this is true, and no one knows it better than me, I don't have to accept ANY OF IT. Those before youy that you spoke about didn't, I don't. Those before me made it a better place for me, I hope to make it a better place for thsoe who follow me.
"So no, brothers are not the only one committing crimes against providers but the STORIES and WARNINGS we providers get are primarily about black men."
Perhaps because prejudce and myth perpetuates prejudce and myth? Or...let me break it down for you...does one crackhead theving escort with a BF who beats her make EVERY ASPs like that? Does it make the majority like that? Do you even know anyone in the business like that?
"ANY man has the right to "NOT" to call me if he doesnt like black women, why then dont providers have the right not to accept appointments if they dont want to see a certain race or type (ie: black men, latin men, asian men, bi men, overweight men, etc) of men?"
No more than any other service has an ethical "right" to discriminate based on race, shuld providers do so. The fact that I have a "right" to not see you doesn't matter. I am not providing a service. I have "right" to chose my dry cleaner, hardware store, etc. for whatever reasons I see fit. They don't have a RIGHT to not service me, except as defined by rules that are applied unilaterially. This "business" isn't quite the same...so those unilateral rules are going to be pretty subjective. I don't have a problem with that. But I say that the rules should be the same for EVERYBODY...regardless of skin color.
"I personally know of a white provider who wont see asian men (her reason is: "I just dont do that") and that is her right."
That makes her a racist. If she can live with her ignorance, may she go with her chosen deity. But email me her name all the same, so i can make sur she never gets any of my money (not that it would probably matter any way...I am fairly confident she wouldn't want it)
"OTHER BLACK MEN ARE F*CKING IT UP FOR EVERYBODY."
So, do other white men f*ck it up for all white men? No? Why not? Can anybody tell me? Is it because a felonous white man is seen as the exception, while an Aferican American man is simply "fitting the profile"?
"If you can pass my screening process I'll see you."
Dearheart, I SWEAR this is all I ask. THIS IS ALL I ASK. If I meet what ever rules...whatever they are...for ALL of your clients, then I don't want to be turned away simply (and only) because I am black. If I am not cute enough, fit enough, rich enough, WHATEVER...so long as those are the rules for EVERYBODY...I have to live with it.All I ask is that things be FAIR.
And Sweet, Sweet, FIONE azz Sable, I SWEAR, when I make it to Las Vegas, if you will see me, I'd LOVE to have a chance to see you and that slammin' body of yours...(I just keep going back to that web page and blubbering like a baby.....lol)
"Even though we clearly dont agree on this issue I would love to talk to you...email me off board, we can talk about other subjects! (I'm serious). "
You can email me here...how do I reach you?