I was reading through the threads below on LE and their borderline illegal busts (Partaking of the providers services and THEN busting her) and how our Legal Disclaimers on our websites are basically meaningless. I admit that I did not read every single post, but here are my thoughts.

Okay...

In Arizona a 24-year-old man was just caught and is suspected of murdering 4 prostitutes. These are
”Street Level” ladies he lured to his home with drugs and then killed. He probably met these women on the street, they got into his car and no one knew who he was or where she was going. It was an anonymous encounter. I bet no one even missed these girls for weeks. And when they were reported missing I bet solving their disappearance was not on the top of LE’s priority list.

What I like about this "Level" of play is that the guys have just as much to lose as the women. New clients often ask me if I have had any "Bad" experiences with clients. The answer is no. Getting beaten up or robbed is more likely to happen on a street corner than in a client’s hotel room (or a provider's incall place). Especially when the provider has the guys REAL NAME (She has to know it to verify he is staying at that hotel and/or get up to his hotel room) and sometimes she has even more info on him (His work place information, etc). Most hobbyists are nice guys, we know who he REALLY is and therefore it is in his best interest to be so (nice). The hobbyist doesn’t want to get ripped off or caught and neither does the provider…so for the most part everyone behaves themselves. But I’m not so naïve to think that there are NO risks on this level.

Also, LE knows all of a providers ways of detecting if he's a cop or not (and I wont go into them here in case they missed a few). They know our "M.O" and they know how we work. Of course they gleaned a lot of our “M.O”’s in the field, but I’m sure they learned a lot of our ways on these boards. I wont be surprised if we are our own worst enemies. (The Internet seems so anonymous, but I’m sure LE visits this and other boards like it daily, and if we think they don’t we are naïve in our thinking)

I've often said that LE loves chasing after providers because providers don’t carry guns (or even a tazer or mace for that matter) I mean, God forbid they chase after DRUG DEALERS and TERRORIST'S. Drug Dealers and Terrorists have guns and they shoot back. Oooh, that would be dangerous (Sarcasm Intended). On the news in my town they talked about how LE has spent months investigating the illegal shipment of cigarettes from Virginia to California and Nevada to avoid taxes. Yes…CIGARETTES…not bombs, not drugs, not biological weapons and/or weapons of mass destructions…%^$#@!@#$ Cigarettes!!!!!! Our tax dollars at work folks.

It makes me crazy that hobbyists and providers don’t COOPERATE more with one another. The penalties for Hobbyists and Providers are “off”. A guy goes to John School for a day and walks away without a record. A provider is LUCKY is she walks away with just a loitering charge or community service, more often than not she ends up with a record. Nothing really happens to the guy, so his level of risk is not as much as the girls.  And, some guys want to keep it that way. So many guys out there pride themselves in NOT giving a provider his info.  Perhaps they have dealt the unscrupulous providers (and their pimps) in the past, and they don’t want to get burned again.

IT’S A TRUST ISSUE.  Providers AND Hobbyists are going to keep getting busted (and ripped off) unless we trust one another. I know there are THIRD PARTY SERVICES out there that screen the guys for the ladies and then they go from there. Unfortunately LE has better access to Fake I.D. and other resources than the average guy.  One of these services could unknowingly screen LE and the girl could get busted.  I’d love to see more third party services out there, but unfortunately LE will just harass them until they go out of business.  LE can be thwarted, but we have to trust each other.

WE HAVE TO TRUST EACH OTHER. Just like we all know which providers are rip off’s etc because they are on a “list”,…we should also have some kind of list of providers who handle clients info professionally, carefully and confidentially. Positive behavior on the provider’s part should be rewarded and not ignored.

BOTTOM LINE: it should be harder to find a provider than it currently is. A guy should have to know somebody who knows somebody , who knows somebody, who knows somebody who knows a provider. A guy shouldn’t be able to click on a website, dial a phone number and get companionship. YES, I know companionship is an impulse buy. I imagine it goes like this: “I’m ‘lonely’, I have money, she looks good, let me call her”. It’s not something a guy really plans. If he thinks that’s the last time he’s going to get ‘lonely’ then he’s a little out of touch with reality. HOBBYIST SHOULD PLAN AHEAD. Even if that means that there is some kind of discreet non-internet, no paper trail type of reservoir of information hobbyists can leave their information and that providers can tap into when needed. (I’m still thinking this part out, so I wont eleborate).

Finding a provider should be as hard as finding a hit man. IT SHOULD TAKE EFFORT, REAL EFFORT TO PROCURE THE COMPANIONSHIP OF A PROVIDER. Do hit men put ads in the newspaper, yellow pages or Internet? NO. You have to know someone who knows someone etc. And even then you meet in a parking lot  or some public place etc. I mean, you have to put in some serious effort before you can get your loved one “whacked”…(No I’ve never hired a hit man. Why? Because I don’t know where to find one!, which proves my point…, which is, THEY ARE HARD TO FIND). Partaking of our companionship shouldn’t be as easy as ordering a pizza.

Folks, we need to take this hobby UNDERGROUND. Geesh! Look at the genius’s that got caught with the truckload of cigarettes. There’s an underground market for cigarettes…and cigarettes are LEGAL! Even the idiot cigarette guys had the good sense to try to keep their activities underground. Most of the Mob’s and Gangs activities are underground (or at least they use “fronts”). And yet “We’re all out in the open”.  Any fool with ten fingers and a working knowledge of the alphabet can just type in the words “Female Escort” on a search engine and find us. WHAT THE %$@!#$%& IS THAT????? And everyone is puzzled as to why we keep getting caught? I think we may just be our own worst enemies.

Flame away!

Sable

I'm not sure what you really want here. I will touch on 2 points.

I agree we need trust.
Just how do plan on proving you have destroyed all of the clients info, and haven't saved it for use later?


You feel that more discretion is needed, yet I notice your website is still working, and you are still posting on this board.

If you stopped posting and took your website down, how much revenue would you loose?

just kidding.

take the profession "back" underground? try to sell that to the girls who are having trouble getting enough business even with the websites and other adverts.

let's go the other way; let's figure out how to get these idiots out of our private business and personal lives. i'd like to live in a world where nobody has any say in who i sleep with (except of course the object of my interest... and if i have to pay for it, that should be our choice and nobody else's). there are movements behind legalization, let's lobby for it and promote it and VOTE it.

Trust?  Well, how bout when I call, you just trust that I’m a nice guy, not ask where I work, not ask to see my ID, not ask for a reference, etc. etc. etc.  Not gonna work is it?  I’m not so sure it’s really a trust issue, but more of a technology issue.  The ‘net has been a double-edged sword for both provider and hobbyist and I think in many ways we’re all still adjusting to it.  No question it has made it easier to find a provider and while I can’t go to hireahitman.com, I’d bet that by spending a few minutes poking around online, I’d have a much better idea of HOW to find a hitman than I currently do.  Bottom line, the Internet is here to stay and you and the music industry are just gonna have to get used to it.

Hey Sable - Here's my 2 bits on your dilemma. I think a lot of us are going through a bit of a shock at all the LE activity that has been going on recently because, well, this whole TER/internet revolution thing is still basically new to us and perhaps we all thought that we were finally in the clear. But that is apparently not so and LE is obviously adapting their ways and means of keeping a lid on the hobby. I still feel however that the internet and particularly this site has been great for the exercise of our hidden desires. I look back now and can't believe that I EVER picked up an LAXpress. But it goes without sayng that we ALL still need to be careful.

In my experience the whole issue of trust and reference checks differs greatly between individual providers. I have seen providers who were absolutely meticulous about it and others who spoke to me on the phone for 10 seconds and then answered the door naked with their hands held out for the envelope. Now I'm not saying that I have been comfortable with the idea of a provider calling my place of work. (It's a small company and a sultry voice calling the main line to enquire about me; well its tricky to manuveur that one is all I'll say) But I have usually accepted it because I respect where its coming from except that NOW I work primarily from home.

Still though, I find that its the more sophisticated, higher end girls who tend to do this and its accepted among their clientele and maybe even helps them to remain in that echelon of the trade.

What I worry about is the other girls. The less cagey ones who might very well have unbelievable physiscal features but more often than not are not that swift and simply don't have the wherewithal to discreetly manueveur these "checks" They are much more likely to fall into an LE trap and its a real shame because some of these girls, were it not for their naivete, could easily be gourmet material.

It sounds to me like you have it together enough to protect yourself most of the time. But when your car payment is due and you haven't had a client in a couple of days and you get a call out of the blue ... well I guess you're usually going to end up taking that chance.

There is ONE thing. A few months ago on the LA board I could have sworn I heard none other than Morgan Ashley herself post a messgae to the effect of "Woo-Hoo, the Provider Board is Here!!!" I have not heard a peep more of this since but it seems to me like it would be a good idea. For myself I know that the chance of encountering a B&S/Rip-off has shrunk down to nothing since I found this board. Us guys look out for each other and if somebody is not on the level we all know about is fairly quickly. It seems to me that this site would be a great way for the girls to pool their info in a private provider-only forum. I don't know if this is in the works...

At any rate, while I believe that most of us do this in good faith there are always those... You know some guys are looking for the wine and dine, carress and cuddle-type experience while others are looking for the finger straight up the ass. That's the Nature of the Beast.
*
Well that turned out be more like a buck-and-a-quarter. Take care and be safe.

(I am not angry or defensive when writing this. I’m very calm and just trying to clarify my point)

One of you above(Sorry, I forget who it was) made a good point and that is that the ladies are AFRAID to come forward and say what they really feel and want in this biz because they are afraid of their income going south or being “black listed” (as if we were actually that organized). Most providers think the guys have the power, when in reality the girls have a lot more power than they think. (Yes, I have the nerve to try to empower women…such blasphemy! lol)

And why don’t more ladies say what they really think? They are afraid. They think that if they don’t go along with the established program they wont make any money. THAT’S NOT TRUE. I know of five ladies in the biz (I know one personally) who DON’T advertise and are NOT hurting for clients at all (they have to turn clients away). Yes, all five still have personal websites, but that’s it…they don’t advertise anywhere. But I’m not trying to “out” anyone, so I wont (not cant, WONT) say who these ladies are. They are trying to stay under the radar, and not only do I respect that I admire it. They didn’t accomplish this over night though, it was a step-by-step process that they used to go underground. I’m sure they don’t want the world (and LE) to find them.

Most ladies are secretly tired of being arrested, but since the guys get arrested at a much lower instance than the girls, the guys have no incentive to help us out. The guys have no incentive to try to come up with a better system because they are not shouldering most of the risk. LE goes after the girls disproportionately to the guys. We “are” more hidden than I’d like to admit, but we do have a false sense of security (Can you say “Flea Collar”?).

Providers are a lot smarter than you give us credit for. We know what you want and we try to provide that for you. And just as we know what you want, we know what you DON’T want. As far as screening goes I know what you don’t want.  I know, I know, I know…you don’t want:

1. Your boss, your wife, your friends and family, your priest, “big brother”. “whoever” to know what you do with your personal time.

2. Your info to be lying around in a “black book” or on some girl’s hard drive to be found in a bust.

I UNDERSTAND. The lucky girls who went underground don’t want the whole world to know their business either (none of us girls want to be as vulnerable as we are). Most good providers don’t want to compromise your privacy; it’s not in our best interest. It’s not good business to have a reputation of compromising client’s privacy…that’s a quick way to go out of business!

I’ve heard so many stories of guys getting robbed or ripped off. The “driver” came in and kicked his @$$ and took his money. Or the girl gets paid and “forgets” something in the car and never comes back. The girl maces him, takes his money and runs.  Some girls slip guys GHB or some other drug and take not only his money but his credit cards, watch, gold chains, etc.

Don’t you want to stop that from happening? Wouldn’t it be great if you were GUARANTEED that the girls you saw would NOT do this? Or do you not care because it hasn’t happened to you yet, and well it could end up being too inconvenient to find a girl if this hobby went a little further underground?

REVIEW SITES are wonderful! Review sites have taken most of the guesswork and worry out of selecting a provider. GREAT. WONDERFUL. I submit to you that it doesn’t have to end there. What if it went even further and not only do you have her reviews, but what if you were GUARANTEED your info was in a secure place, You were GUARANTEED the girls pics were accurate and recent and you were GUARANTEED the girl would for sure provide you with great personal companionship?

That the point I’m trying to make is this: IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS. We really need to reward the good providers who are not rip-offs and we really need to find a better system for EVERYONE.

What frustrates the &^%$#@! out of me is that as our little “system” stands, NO ONE HAS AN INCENTIVE TO CHANGE. And that’s so sad because change would benefit everyone.

The Beatles said: “You say you want a revolution, well you know, we all want to change the world”

Of course I wont revolutionize the biz and/or change your minds today, tomorrow or next week…but I hope I gave you something to think about.

Sable

it is an imperfect world, and things are bound to happen. Trying to make guarantees in an imperfect environment is a dicey business.  Personally, I have hobbied around, like many of the gents, for quite some time and have had many not so wonderful experiences.

Witness the following:

I had an "unfriendly" driver try to strongarm me and he got unceremoniously tossed down a flight of stairs for his trouble.

I've driven up to a meet and observed the police taking a girl who looked remarkably like the girl I was supposed to see to a squad car.

I've had a girl pass-out on me, literally, on top of me.

I've had a girl go to the wrong address and call me from a block over generating some interesting stares from the neighbors down the street from time to time.

I've also met some outstanding ladies (one who ended up being my SO for four years).

I take guarantees with a grain of salt, nothing in life is certain, and I personally tend to get bored in an environment totally devoid of risk and the anticipation of a curve ball. I may be off-base, but for me, I like a challenge, and I like a little risk in my life.  

That being said, if I am on the way to a meet and things don't feel right I call it off right then and there.  This hasn't happend more than a couple of times, one was the situation referenced above when I was actually on my phone calling the girl in question to let her know I was going to cancel, and she was being carted away.

So for me, taking it underground and making me work any harder at researching, contacting, establishing a dialog, and meeting the ladies who I see is completely unacceptable.

HPG

Getting our collective shit together would be great.  Don't know if it's possible, but it would be great.  

Trouble is, it's a lot easier for us (guys AND girls) to just play the odds.  Most of the time, guys don't meticulously plan these things.  We're horny, we have some time and some cash, so we check out the Web or the Weekly and call somebody.  Sure, sometimes we'll make more of an effort, but not all the time.  The girls know that and that's why they advertise and take all the chances.  LE, ROB's and Jack-the-Rippers are out there, but we all think it'll happen to someone else.  So maybe we're careful and maybe we're not, but we all keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.  Sometimes I think the danger is part of the thrill, for both parties (note: I said sometimes).

To be well informed, is to be well armed.

There are websites out there that have what you're looking for: 1) www.naughtyescort.com, and 2) www.escortwatch.com

But, more importantly, is changing the laws and getting rid of the misinterpretations. So, how do we actively do that? Because that's what interest me the most!
There are wonderful attorneys who are also Hobbyists and they are working behind the scenes to change the laws or at least the interpretation of them. Also, there are wonderful ex-Providers who are Activists in the Sex Workers' Rights.
I only have pieces, or shreds, of information here and there, but, together, and with the internet, we can find out the best ways to go about changing the laws. I started with a book written by an Ex-Provider whose website was www.magdalenemeretrix.com and that had some info. I'm interested in getting some good info from anybody out there on actually DOING something to change things.
Sable, your cigarette story is just absolutely flabbergasting. It's hideously ridiculous and embarrassing, I think.
And I agree with you..

Thanks for the post.
xo,
Sedona