The link provides some gruesome photos of the tragic war that America has been dragged into.
Please write you local representitives and tell them no more of this crap for either side. pull our troops out now.


http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/gulfwar2/  

Son,  the war on Iraq reflects a very sordid reality ... our foreign policy has been completely hijacked, while we sat back quietly.

Looking at any poll, overwhelming number of Americans were against the $87B package to keep the war going.  By a wide margin we let our representatives know it.  Still, look at the overwhelming number of our representatives who voted in favor of it!  

Being an optimist, I am hoping by Baker stepping in, perhaps Bush is waking up, and recognizing how badly he was manipulated.

Yes it is...although it should never had started

  My first time posting and unfortunately it has to be on such a
divisive subject matter.  End the war in Iraq??  Even after this war go to most high schools in this country and see how many kids can find Iraq on the map.  Just think how easy it will be to manipulate the next generation.  It is a politicians dream to have an uninformed public.  Ask those same kids to name every reality show, every new rap album, the daily line up on MTV, and not a single one will falter.  And now here you are talking about Iraq, foreign policy and other such irrelevant nonsense About 70% of the public still believe Saddam was behind 9-11, good luck trying to talk some sense  You can only do so much friend!!

The truth is that our enemies are to be found in the middle east where they are nurtured, trained, and supported in their madness by  states like Iraq. This president has had the good sense and the great advice to place an army right in the heart of darkness, with ports and airfields galore! These people hate us unto death, theirs and ours and who gives a fuck if Iraq wasnt exactly the source, we need a base of operations with a nice pointed sword ready to strike any bastard state that supports, nurtures, gives succor to, or harbors the the terrorist pig. That we eliminated a genocidal monster in the process is just iceing. Wake up you pacifist idiots, this is war to the death, better them then us.

disagree with your position.  Next year is an important election year.  Just make sure we show up and vote for whom we support.

In the meanwhile, happy hobbying to all.

Worldwide anit-American propaganda was worse before September 11 than during the peak of the Cold War. Perhaps you are too young to remember air raid sirens in your neighborhood and "duck, cover and hold" drills in elementary school. I remember.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/EM780.cfm

This could be your office building. Or your wifes. Or father's.
http://student.dei.uc.pt/~trindade/WTC/pictures/graphic/914_fall5.jpg

Can you imagine anything like this happening in the USA?
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/05/iraq051303.htm
http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/

I don't care if you are a communist or a plutocrat or a scientific monarchist.... The key to liberty is freedom. The best framework for people to live in freedom without fear is the Constitution of the United States. Enemies of the United States, both foreign and domestic seek to destroy these freedoms.

Look at the actions of the people you choose to support. Think about how their actions effect you and will effect your children and vote accordingly. Think and vote.




-- Modified on 12/27/2003 9:51:16 PM

that people always think war should have zero casualties? ... if it did they wouldn't call it "war" they'd call it a "police action" (but even that can include fatalities)
 
i'm guessing the person who put up this web page wanted to manipulate you into thinking certain thoughts (just like Al Jazeera does by showing images the American media would not)

maybe you should look at pictures of half a million Kurdish women and children gassed with nerve agents by Saddam or the million or so of Iranian "boy soldiers" killed with chemical weapons by his generals

you know ... just to be "fair and balanced"  ?

As much as I was opposed to the war in the first place, and I was as adamant in my opposition as anyone, we can not pull out right now.  We have a moral responsibility to rebuild the government in Iraq.  Our government is going about it all wrong, but none the less we have a responsibility.  

Even if it were not the moral responsibility, there is a real security reason to insure the stability of Iraq.  Instability leads to poverty, and extremist groups love poverty.  There is no place easier to recruit than amongst people who have nothing to lose.  

Extremist groups give education and medical care to people in extreme poverty.  They become heroes to the starving.  Then they come along and offer to take care of a kid’s family, if he will just do something for them.  Now this kid is 18, 19 years old, hasn't eaten enough in years, and in addition to offering to take care of his family, they tell him that if he dies for the "war", he will go straight to heaven.  As soon as he gets to heaven, he gets 78 virgins all to himself.  It is not a hard decision, I am afraid to say.  

If we want to end the attacks on our country, military might is never going to work.  We need to pull the rug out from under their recruitment efforts.  That means education, food, medical care and a stabile, representative government need to be the god given right not just of Americans, but of everyone.  


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Wonderfully said Light.  I was almost in tears by the time I finished reading your post.  I too was troubled by the decision to go in, but now feel that we're obligated to stay the course for the EXACT reasons you describe.

As I've mentioned before, (hopefully this won't be taken as bragging) I spent some of the best years of my life as an Army Ranger and special operations soldier.  I've been the spearhead at the point of darkness a few times, and usually in situations that really highlighted the tough moral issues of balancing loyalties to morality, patriotism, democracy, global citizenship.  My job NEVER involved deploying into situations where the moral boundaries or justifications were clear-cut, that's not where you send special ops soldiers.

Every time I left I knew that my soul would ultimately have to pay the price for whatever gray areas I ended up in, that the typical US citizen was disenfranchised from responsibility for my actions--either because of ignorance/apathy, or because the administration acted against the will of the people.

Every time I came home, I encountered two kinds of people.  One group was busy playing superficial grab-ass games like Dixie-Chick boycotts, and that reality hurt me and my fellow soldiers more deeply than you could ever know--it left us alone to accept responsibility for the moral dilemma of our actions.  The other group--the Lights and the JackVances of the world were engaged in the underlying debate.  "Why are we doing this?  Should we be doing this?  I'm going to spend some time thinking about this, talking to my neighbors about this, just participating in the debate."  No experience in my life makes me more proud to be an American, more in touch with my own patriotism, less troubled by my actions, than meeting someone in that second group.

It makes NO difference to me whether you're for or against, just as long as you're participating in the dabate about the underlying moral issues instead of the superficial issues.  Just knowing that back home, there's people really struggling with the role of America, struggling with the moral dilemmas our foreign policy so often creates, makes being a soldier worthwhile.

But then again, I could be wrong.

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 1:03:36 AM

Whatever your opinion may be, it is a privilege to be able to express it on this board. My email addy (not-too-subtly peace oriented) was bordering on "too political" and no refs to the war could be made on the very recent former Seattle locally-operated review board unless it was an occasional "patriotic" (ie: pro-war) reference and/or request for donations to support the war. I did manage to work in a few somewhat ambiguous well-known poems on certain holidays. Seriously, when it comes down to it, we all see peace as the ultimate goal, right? Who would say that they're "anti-peace"? It's just a matter of war as a way to peace, or peace as the way. Of course, we can no more "win" a war than we can win an earthquake.

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 6:21:25 AM

YES!! we need to leave....what have we accomplished other than killing Saddam Hussiens's sons and capturing him.....where are the weapons of mass destruction? Yes, we eradicated a tyrant, but we have also created a vacuum of anarchy. I am middle eastern and a muslim, but I am an American first and to hear everyday another American G.I. has been killed is disgusting! and for what? Petrol? for Bush's drive foe democracy in the middle east? it will never happen.....you must be born into the culture to understand it......democracy does not apply there....it is a paternal society.

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 1:08:55 PM

*

Omegazap,, God bless your heart. I have the upmost respect for you and every soldier that has particapated in any war since the creation of America.
It was an absolute pleasure reading your words. Knowing that you care about the citizens that you have fought for, and our beliefs, whether pro or against war. Knowing that you have bravely marched forward into the face of danger. Again, God bless you.
Always the best for you and yours.
Funtime69

i'm guessing the person who put up this web page wanted to manipulate you into thinking certain thoughts (just like Al Jazeera does by showing images the American media would not)

maybe you should look at pictures of half a million Kurdish women and children gassed with nerve agents by Saddam or the million or so of Iranian "boy soldiers" killed with chemical weapons by his generals





Singleton, you should be ashamed of yourself.. Accusing me of manipulation. The truth is we don't belong in Iraq. They were never a imminent danger to the United States.
we attacked because they are considered an imminent danger to Israel. war mongering Israeli influences are what brought us into this mess. We are being used.
We didn't enter the war to "free" or provide a "democracy" for the Iraqi people. That is just spin control.
We entered apon the false belief that Iraq had weopons of mass destruction and ICBM's that could reach our shores. This was a flat out lie. In the weeks following, the reason swiched to "operation iraqi freedom". What a bunch of bull. We don't really care about the iraqi people.
Of course war has casulties. I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.
We cannot afford to keep this up. we are bankrupting our kids future for another country. Our national debt is skyrocketing. I essence the interest on the debt goes to Israel. Israeli agents around the world control the world banking systems.
It is a slow decay of this country. An involuntary surrender of our resources.
We are being attacked by terrorists not because they "hate our frredom and way of life", but for a few reasons;
1, we support the Saudi government which is opposed by over 65% of the Soudi Populace. We give them plenty of money and support. Why? because they are in bed with the Bush family. Or vice verca. One big oil circle jerk comint at the expense of Saudi's and Americans.
2, we support Israel financially and militarily. Israel uses this money and cheap\free weaponry to invade, terrorize, and and steal land from their neighboring countries. What do you expect from these people? (terrorists) we are supporting the people who kill and steal from their brothers ind the Middle East. Wouldn't you go after the people who are supplying your enemies with the tools that help them construct your demise?
Makae know mistake, I don't support crashing planes into America, or killing Americans. But ihave taken the time to understand why.
You Singleton are trying to manipulate like our government the peoples thinking that this is a just military exercise. It isn't. It only benefits Israel.
The bottoom line is that Iraq holds the 2nd largest oil reserve. Israel wants this oil. they are using us to break the bacs of the iraqi's and are covering it up with this BS about Iraqi terror.

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 8:14:24 AM

Further proof that we arn't really concerned about terror is the lack of enforcment of our borders. There are known Mexican Drug\people smugglers that get paid to transport these items into our country. If we we really trying to protect our countrymen, we would stop this flow of ilegals into this country.
If one can smuggle drugs and mexican people for money, these same people can smuggle terrorists and their items of desrtuction into this country.
we let it happen.
This government is not concerened with border enforcement. It is if they want terroists to enter. It's so hypocritical that we are "fighting the war on terror" yet doing nothing to stop them from entering this country.

. Wake up you pacifist idiots, this is war to the death, better them then us.

i am no pacifist. i am a realist. I look at things from nearly every angle.
Do you really believe we can get everyone who hates us. I believe we are just creating more and more people who will come to despise us.

Californian, my father like figure. what can we do? I don't have mush faith in Mr Bush. (this isn't an endorsment for the democratic party).
Thank you for your reply.

The argument made is that we need to have a sword pointed ready to strike any bastard that supports, nurtures, harbors, and aids terrorists in any capacity.  Just look at all the pics of half a million kurdish women and children gassed.  
 Why only look at selective excerpts of history??  Who was it that aided, nurtured, and supported Saddam, the oppressive Shah, the family of Saud, Pinochet, Suharto, and countless other terrorists around the world for the last half of the 20th century.  Following public condemnation, Rumsfeld secretly visits Saddam to ensure him that we want to strengthen diplomatic ties and are willing to overlook his use of chemical weapons.  OH NO IM A UNPATRIOTIC COMMIE TRAITOR FOR SUGGESTING THAT OUR POLITICIANS CAN BE HYPOCRITES AND CRIMINALS AS WELL.  
 This is not an anti U.S. message.  Our great nation defeated Fascism and Communism in Europe by destroying every last dictator on the continent.  Our purpose was noble and just in Europe.  Turn to the Middle East and we have an era where only for the purpose of securing oil we helped overthrow democracies, and supported countless oppressors who destroyed entire societies.  We need true courage and a bold vision to break the blackmail monopoly the oil industry has on our politicians and the global economy.  As long as we are dependent on oil our children in uniform will have to die in wars we will live under the treart of terrorism.  There is no way around it.

As much as I was opposed to the war in the first place, and I was as adamant in my opposition as anyone, we can not pull out right now.  We have a moral responsibility to rebuild the government in Iraq.  Our government is going about it all wrong, but none the less we have a responsibility.  

Even if it were not the moral responsibility, there is a real security reason to insure the stability of Iraq.  Instability leads to poverty, and extremist groups love poverty.  There is no place easier to recruit than amongst people who have nothing to lose


Light, thank you for taking the time to respond.
While I agree we should form some type of fair government in Iraq, I feel the longer we stay the more we will be viewed as occupiers, and not deliverers of freedom.
I cannot comment on the "government is going about it in the wrong way" comment beause I don't have an answer for the way we should go aabout this.
I will refer to the elders on this board for their opinions.

by "the person who put up this web page" i simply meant the person who put up this web page! --- meaning NOT you, but him.  you didn't "put up this web page" you just provided a link to it.  ergo i was not accusing you of anything (well, except perhaps you yourself being manipulated by "the person who put up the web page" in the first place)

to be honest, i didn't bother reading anything beyond your first sentence accusing me of accusing you (ie. only enough to realize your misapprehension) ... you've now posted 7 messages in this thread. obviously you feel strongly about all this (perhaps even more so in thinking that you're right and all others are wrong) ... truth is, i've come to realize that it's utterly futile to change people's political views.  so i don't even bother debate them anymore (i only express my views and move on)

--

perhaps the greatest irony is that you automatically assumed that because i support(ed) this war i must be a right-wing pro-Bush Republican which i most definitely am NOT ... i'm sure i would've agreed with most of what you said in this thread (had i bothered to read it -- but then, i've heard it all before)



-- Modified on 12/28/2003 10:58:07 AM

*

but thought that it was Off Topic and decided against it.  But, and to that end, I find other like minded individuals that have taken the opportunity that this board avails and offered and vented their political points of view here and now.  I too am poffering some year end ruminations for your review.  Please respond gently....I'm sensitive:

I guess this last week before New Years is as good a time as any to reflect upon the events of this past year.  I'm going to make it simple this time and omit most if not all of my accusatory references.

What I'm left with is this.  A few days ago there was an earthquake in Iran that killed perhaps no less than 40,000 people.  This is a devastating loss of life and pales by comparison the 3,800 plus lives lost on 9/11.  I remember when the Shuttle Columbia disintegrated in February of this year that the Islamic media quoted clerics and Iraqi officials saying that it was no mistake that the Columbia, which represented all of the 'evil' of our technologically oriented society, first flew to pieces and then ballisticly came to earth in and around Palestine, Texas.  This meant something to the Muslims  and was living proof that God of any denomination was NOT on our side.

Now, here we are, almost a year later and the Untied States is sending aid to assist in the recovery of whoever has survived this Nature borne disaster AND NOT ONE CLAIM THAT THEY HAVE EARNED OR DESERVED THIS CALAMITY FROM OUR PRESS OR ANY OFFICIAL....Only reports of the unthinkable cost in lost life and the rescue efforts of the Iranian government and those who are willing to help.

I'm not going to draw any conclusions and I wish you all the very best of New Years.

Regards,

The Dude

No it's not time to stop the war. Not until the job is finished. This country does not need to pull up stakes and high tail it out and give the terrorists the impression that we can be intimidated.

Why is it that everytime we get involved in something in the middle east, someone has to say it is for Israel? Israel has not part in this whatsoever. Should Israel just keep letting these Palestinian cowards come into Israeli cities and blow themselves and countless other innocent civilians up? Absolutely not.

I have read all the comments here and I generally agree with both sides. However, one thing I have learned in life is that everything is subject to change.

The Middle East may be a paternalistic society. However, that doesn't mean that Iraq can not, and should not establish a democratic form of government that works.

I come from a long line of people who served in the military. I would have as well were it not for health reasons.

Saddam had to go, and although I cringe when I see the headlines everyday we can't just pack up and leave now. We did that in Somalia and look what happened. Furthermore, while we need to set up schools, and hospitals, etc, we need to agresively persue this war. If we can take a lesson from Vietnam, "hearts and minds" did not work, or did not work as well as we had hoped.  If nothing else we owe it to those who have already died to finish the job. I just wish that Gw's dad had had the balls to tell the rest of the  world to fuck off back in 91 and finish the job then. Now we are paying for it.

Do I wish that we might find some WMD's? Sure, but from what I have been able to put together Saddam could have been Hitler's stand in. I have no military training of any kind, but it seems that we are now starting to prosecute this conflict the way we should, ie more agressively.

I live in a townhouse. For many years, before they moved an Iraqi family lived next door. Turns out that they had an older daughter still living in Iraq. In 2000, that daughter died, how I don't know. I was very good friends with the eldest son. I asked him if he was going back for the funeral. He looked at me, and calmly told me that he would like nothing more, both to pay his respects, and to see his homeland once more. However, as long as Saddam was in charge he and his younger brother, AND his father who at the time was pushing 80 could not return, unless they wanted to be thrown in jail, or maybe against a wall.

Today, all of them can return if they choose to.

Right or wrong, good bad or indiferent we need to finish what we started. Even so plan on us being there for at least two or three more years.

Happy New Year

Well you should have read on Mr Singleton.
Please don't make assumptions, I never wrote or assumed that you were a Republican. It isn't any of my business. You have admitted that you are jewish (nothing wrong with that) and most jews vote Democratic.
regardless of the number of posts i have  contributed, some are defusing BS (like your post putting me in the same light as Al Jezerra TV) and some are payinng tribute to our soldiers. Some to people who have taken the time to READ WHAT I WROTE, and choose to respond.
Out of curiosity, why are there no Israeli soldiers in the colition??

Why is it that everytime we get involved in something in the middle east, someone has to say it is for Israel? Israel has not part in this whatsoever. Should Israel just keep letting these Palestinian cowards come into Israeli cities and blow themselves and countless other innocent civilians up? Absolutely not.



No they havn't at least in the sense that they are notproviding soldiers like America is.
The Palestinian people are fighting to stop the Israeli War Machine from stealing any more of the Pals land. They are attempting to stop the Israeli's from bull dozing their olive groves and homes.
Why is Israel segragating the Pals? It is very simular to warsaw Poland. Huddle the Pals into concentration camps, letting them out on occasion to work.
Basically because Israel is far from a saint. They are acting in the exact same way as Nazi Germany....Never forget!! It appears if the Israeli's will boost their memory banks by practicing the same horrible stunts the germans did to them...

"You have admitted that you are jewish (nothing wrong with that) and most jews vote Democratic." -- funtime69


pray tell just WHEN and WHERE did i "admit" to being jewish (and as if it's something to be ashamed about -- something one has to "admit" to) ... i'm beginning to think you are an anti-semite!  

i'm certainly glad i didn't waste my time reading your rants

You have admitted that you are jewish (nothing wrong with that) and most jews vote Democratic." -- funtime69


pray tell just WHEN and WHERE did i "admit" to being jewish (and as if it's something to be ashamed about -- something one has to "admit" to) ... i'm beginning to think you are an anti-semite!  

i'm certainly glad i didn't waste my time reading your rants








There it is, the anti semitic bomb!! It is usually used when one cannot provide a rebuttle to a truthful comment.
I am refering to dismissing my original post for you. It is so easy to say "I won't even bother to read the rest of your words". when one has no answers to dispute my truthful words. Or to say that that a website isn't valid because the information it contains. Do only Israeli\jewish websites count as valid??
Stop throwing around the anti semetic word. It's classless. I was hoping to engage in a fair non name calling exchange with you.
For the record a few months back you mentioned you were Jewish. Relax, when I mentioned "admitted" it wasn't as if it were something to be ashamed of. It was only because you made a reference that I implied you voted Republican. MOST, not all, jewish people vote Democratic. That is the only reason it was brought up. I never implied that you voted in any way, repub\Dem\green\Lib, ect...I don't care how you vote. Please don't be so sensitive...
I do believe however that you choose to slam the website because it shows innocent Iraqi's and American soldiers, that I believe were dragged into this mess because of Israel. You being Jewish, and I suppose pro Israel, you decided to discredit the website as if everyone will just follow your lead and assume that it's invalid.
we have American people in high decision making positions that have duel citizenship in america and Israel. That is why we were dragged into this mess. I feel there is a conflict of interest.
If America is all about providing democracy and ending violent oppresive regimes, then we would be doing something about the slaughtering  of people in South africa. But were not really about that are we. we are about greed and protecting Israel at all costs.
Speaking of Israel. It is often touted as the only "democracy" in the middle east. It is easy to be a democracy when they have slaughtered all the oppisition.
If you can dispute my words then do it. I would be happy to exchange in a fair debate without name calling. the anti semetic crap is just a diversion away from the facts I presented. You should be a politician the way you change and divert the subject.

You won't find this information on that site either. If America was so worried about the Iraqi people why are we letting Iraqi's slaughter other Iraqi's without intervention??
Here is a link that tells what is going on. If you care about the Kurds then you should care about all people, after all two wrongs don't
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5432.htm

..perhaps we would not be faced with what appears to be an almost overwhelming task with no apparent end in sight. It becomes increasingly apparent that there was little real planning for the post combat mission in Iraq.

Yes our military displayed its prowess in undertaking a mission
against a large standing army and routing that army quickly.
I totally support our troops in Iraq. They performed the mission they were ordered to execute. I am a veteran myself of another ill conceived war undertaken by our government--Vietnam.
The troops deserve and need our support.

It is our foreign policy that is very much misguided. I too adamantly opposed the war in Iraq. Saddam, while he was in power was a brutal thug responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands. Is the world better off with Saddam out of the picture? Certainly I think the answer is yes, but it is the people of Iraq who ultimately are better off in the sense that
this brutality is far less likely to touch their lives.
Unfortunately it has given way to a great deal of chaos, uncertainty, and the continued threat of danger albeit on a far smaller scale than they suffered at the hands of Saddam.

I am still convinced that we had Saddam in a box with the 24/7
overflights of the no fly zones. The UN weapons inspectors, although they found little in the way of WMD were helping to keep Saddam off balance with respect to his efforts at development and deployment of such weapons. Yes he would still be in power if we had continued to follow that strategy but he was largely neutralized.

It can be something of a powerful "emotional" argument to say that "we got him" and play on that as making the world a safer place. I find little solace in Saddam's capture with respect to
the security of the US and the threat of terrorism.

Osama bin Laden is still as elusive as ever. Al Qaeda operations in Afghanistan and along the Pakistani border are still able to function on some level and they are apparently still able to hide assets in many places around the world.
Al Qaeda and bin Laden were then, and are now, still a far greater threat to the security of the US than Saddam ever was by any stretch.

So we are still faced with a very credible threat from terrorist elements spread over many countries. Despite the very commendable work done in the intelligence community to capture Saddam I'm afraid our intelligence capabilities with respect to Al Qaeda and other terrorist threats is decidedly lacking.
Unfortunately it is those terrorist elements that remain the greater threat to our security.

Now beyond trying to deal with these various terrorist threats, we have embarked on what amounts to nation building in a nation that is an artificial construct of the colonial era. Just as in Vietnam we have little real understanding of the culture and people of Iraq. We presume that they would be thrilled to be a carbon copy of the USA with our style of democracy. That is simplistic to say the least. See the post below by Unseenrain.

I would like to believe that our government's purposes and motives for going into Iraq were of the highest order both moral and ethical. However I don't see it that way. There are any number of other countries headed by brutal regimes that are
still functioning. North Korea is an example. There is of course
no oil in North Korea. Just the third largest standing army in the world and a few nukes. A far more formidable target than Saddam and perhaps a far greater threat to its own people and to our national security.

I very much worry for our troops in Iraq. They are faced with a difficult post combat mission for which they are inadequately trained and not well suited to undertake. Our government should have been far more willing and patient with diplomacy, with getting the UN and the international community behind the effort in Iraq. If that had been the case we would be far better positioned to deal with the post combat phase of this very difficult problem we are faced with now.

As much as I struggle with what is happening in Iraq I would agree that we can't simply pull out and leave a power vacuum
to be filled by various factions bent on destroying one another.

If our government can be less confrontational with our European
allies I think we have a far better chance of achieving a somewhat positive outcome in Iraq.

I am convinced that it is going to be a long, arduous, and expensive undertaking with the outcome far from certain.


-- Modified on 12/28/2003 10:21:36 PM

-- Modified on 12/28/2003 10:30:14 PM

If so, then I'm Really confused!

Well said, Singleton.

Unless you've been in a war zone, it's pretty hard to talk about it realistically. No one likes war, but sometimes our freedom depends on those who sacrifice themselves for that freedom. I, especially, hate to see innocent people hurt, but think how many we may save from the sadistic hands of a man and his sons who enjoyed ripping fingernails off of pregnant women, raping them, cutting out tongues . . . need I go on?  Horrible autracities happen in every country, to include our own. The United States has to maintain a stronghold in this situation, especially after what happened on 9/11. You cannot pull out of a country immediately after a dictator falls. You cannot leave the people without a government, without roads, without supplies, etc. I think it's important to have other countries support and it worried me when we didn't, but look who turned their backs on us when we saved their butts twice. Interesting how people want help when they're desperate, but then accuse us afterward when it's not politically correct. Look how the pilgrims gained help from our Native-American friends when they were starving and half their population died . . . only to force religion down their throats and slaughter them later.  Makes you think, doesn't it?

Hugs,
Ciara

I have to admit that you are partially in your statements about Iraz.  But I still have to defend our troops. And now, of course, it's too late to back out. We have to continue what we've gotten ourselves into and support them now. We should have paid more attention to Iran.  Israel and Palestine are two separate entities. That's a war that will never be over, unfortunately. I agree with both sides. One feels like they own the land because of biblical reasons and the other has prior rights to it. Anyone whose family members are slaughtered has a right to be mad, but the killing fields must stop so that future generations will not have vendettas . . . pretty tough to do, eh?

Why can't we just be neighbors and have our religious and cultural differences?

Hugs,
Ciara

it is a noble and necessary mission. we need to see to it that iraq gets on the good foot with a proper democracy so that it does not continue to be a haven for terrorists

it is good we fight are enemies there now, instead of on our own soil.

"For the record a few months back you mentioned you were Jewish." -- funtime69


i'm afraid you have me confused with someone else. a month back i wasn't even posting on this board ... the only ethnicity i've "admitted to" (i think over 6 months ago) is that i'm half Italian (the other half is as far from Jewish as is ethnically possible)

i'm not sure what you're on about ... but the one thing i'm now sure of is that i don't wanna know

LOL

I am a pacifist, and so my distaste for violence goes without saying.  However, some pacifists take this too far.  They would say that solders are guilty, but Gandhi said you could never truly understand yourself until you had been in a battle situation.  He had great respect for solders who respected their own conscience.

OmegaZap, I have great respect for you and others in your profession.  To quote Mark Twain, "Loyalty to your country, always.  Loyalty to the government when it deserves it."  Thank you for your love of your country, and your loyalty to the institutions who define it.  


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

No not a reply to your post!!  New to this so I still can figure out exactly how I can start a new post and get my own black dot in front of my message  Im not too computer savy  Sorry for the confusion!!

For the record a few months back you mentioned you were Jewish." -- funtime69


i'm afraid you have me confused with someone else. a month back i wasn't even posting on this board ... the only ethnicity i've "admitted to" (i think over 6 months ago) is that i'm half Italian (the other half is as far from Jewish as is ethnically possible)

i'm not sure what you're on about ... but the one thing i'm now sure of is that i don't wanna know

LOL






Singlton, I went back about 4 months. I could not find where you stated you were Jewish. I did find your reference to the jewish word feh. I must of assumed yesterday you were Jewish from that statement. I am sorry for implying that your were jewish. (No, there isn't anything wrong with being jewish). I was mistaken, by your use of the word and your immediate accusation of me "manipulating" The TER readers that perhaps you had something to hide.
For the record you or an imposter have been posting here for quite some time, at least a year or so. Not sure why you would dispute this.
The Jewish thing is neither hear nor there. I believe your focus on that is a diversion from the topic. Our involvement in this and Israel's part. Why can't we just discuss that instead of focusing on the "I am or I am not jewish?", or i am a repub, or I am not a republican? All that is just steering the focus away from the intended subject.
Why would you accuse me of manipulation for just bringing this terrible predicament to light? We don't belong in this. Iraq wasn't invovlved in 9\11. They are a threat maybe to Israel because they support the Pals emotionally. Also because israel fears that Iraq could "backdoor" them through Syria.
I will assume from your lack of rebuttle that you do not dispute my words. i will assume from your immediate attack and slander of my messages that you have a fear of the truth getting out. If one can't prove that the message is false they turn to slandering, and discrediting the messenger....WHY? Singleton, did you attempt to portray me as a manipulator??
I you choose to answer I will gladly exchange ideas with you. I have always admired your wit, and it is obvious that you are a very intelligent man.
If you choose to bash me and my intentions I will be done conversing with you. Rest assured anyone who has followed this thread will see your blatant refusal to address the subject,and obvious attempt to smear me. That is very republican like of you..

One more thing, I am willing to bet we will be invading Iran by this time next year. (That is if Bush is re elected). Why would we do this? because Israel is the only country in the region that will be allowed to have weopons of mass destruction. Nuclear and others.
If you accept I will buy you a $300 session if we are not involved in some sort of altercation, or disarming there military of any kind of advanced weaponery.

i'm not trying to divert attention from the topic since i'm not trying to debate this issue with you at all (i thought i made this clear from my first post).  i'm sorry, but rabid self-righteous folks like you are the reason why i stopped posting on this board (something like 3-4 months ago) and this episode here is an indicator that i was right in doing so -- you're right, i've been on TER for about a year but if you look at the volume of my posts over that time you will see a pattern of decreasing participation (for reasons which i've alluded to)


but getting back to this Jewish thing, you really gave me a scare since i thought someone had used an alias forgery to post messages in my name (it wouldn't be the first time). i posted a warning about this just a month or so ago

finally, regarding this whole misunderstood sub-thread, the old adage comes to mind: "when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME"  and from the get-go you've automatically assumed certain things about who and what i am ... like how based on my (comic) use of Yiddish phrases like "oy vey" or "feh" you reached  the (almost certain) conclusion that "singleton admitted he was Jewish"

my advice to you:  stop thinking/talking and LISTEN to people ... you may find they may actually be in agreement with you!

No sacrifice too small to gain justice for others.

No gain large enough to justify one death.

Peace at any price, for any reason, so long as we are are left alone.

Cowards die a thousand deaths and aid no one by any of them.

There are times and reasons when bloodshed is justified.  The freeing of Iraq is one of them.

my advice to you:  stop thinking/talking and LISTEN to people ... you may find they may actually be in agreement with you!

i'm not trying to divert attention from the topic since i'm not trying to debate this issue with you at all (i thought i made this clear from my first post).---singleton---



No all you did in your first post was falsely accuse me...No mention of not wanting to debate. I believe you falsly assumed some things about me.
I'm done with this thread. It is so nice that you would advise me to think and LISTEN. You right off the bat accused me of manipulation and then preceeded to say that you wouldn't even bother reading the rest of my thread after just one sentence.  That sentence was; "how dare you accuse me of manipulating the board". That was a fair question. Not reading my post past the first sentence is a form of not listening in itself.
I just posted that we should not be involved with this mess. That was all. That isn't manipulation.
You then go on some rant that i was accusing you of being a republican and then we know where the thread went from there.
You brought the dog fight on yourself. You could have just let the original thread go with a comment that wasn't offending to me. To accuse someone, and then put words in my mouth, of course I'm going to bite back. I would expect the same out of anyone.

Singleton, I like your contributions to the board. by no means would I try to run you off. I sincerely apologize for my error. However I don't for the rest of the exchange because I feel you baited me with some false accusations of your own.
Again i apologize, I regret my last apology was followed by another shot at you. I am also sorry that I can be tenacious when i feel that i have a truthful point.
The best to you in the new year...

Yes I think we both struggle with respect to what has happened, and is happening in Iraq. It is sometimes simply tedious to read
through a thread like this one simply because it is so polarizing.

It is very troubling to me that this notion of preemptive first strike warfare has actually been put into play. It seems as if the terrorist succeed in a sense in making our democracy less free, less a cherished example to the rest of the world.

We become a more justifiable target in the eyes of those who hold the most extremist views. Does that make the world a safer place?

Well enough seriousness for the moment.
I can relate to the challenges that technology can present.
I'm sure you are quite proficient with the language despite your computer's attempt to portray you otherwise.

BTW do you recall the name of the computer in 2001 A Space Odyssey.  If you don't it was HAL. It was a little clever play on IBM. They took each of the letters in IBM and moved them back one in the alphabet. So I became H, B became A, and M became L.

"HAL" the maniacal computer with a mind of its own.

Just had to look for a little comic relief given what has been discussed here.

If I hear anything more about how we should use diplomacy in lieu of force I'll puke.  Iraq was at the very least, if that term applies here, supporting terrorism.  Sending money to homicide bombers, and god only knows what else.  When will you guys get it...  the only thing these people respect is force.  Cowar and they win...  use force and they hide in holes.  I'm thinking almost everyone here should just buy a one way ticket to France and wait 'til it happens to you.  Don't worry while you're there, if anything happens the U.S. to come save your ass (again).  Wake up people...  they don't dislike us because we have a military, or because Bush is prez. they dislike our entire social structure, our success, our freedoms...  freedom to believe, worship, and speak as we wish.  If you think kissing their ass will help you're wrong. Sorry to rant but I'm beginning to think most of you cheered on 9-11.  Here in the south we learn early that a big dog will bite when you rattle his cage. Obviously they eat the dogs before they get too big where you're from.