The phrase I used is a quote from an earlier post by HB. (Hope you don't mind my quoting you, HB - my apologies in advance if you do).

HB said that individual providers either are ethical people or they are not, end of story.  But I think there are providers who would like to be ethical on this issue, but allow themselves to do the unethical thing by exploiting these guys.

They justify it in a variety of ways:

1)  He thinks he's exploiting me.  I'll just turn the tables and exploit him.  Serves him right.  Women are powerful!

2)  It's just a fantasy.  Surely he understands this.  If he doesn't, it's not my fault.  I never really did or said anything to lead him on, because the things that I did say or do were all just a part of the fantasy experience that I provide.  If he thinks in his own mind that there is something more going on, than it's all in  his mind, and I'm not responsible for that.

3)  I need the money.  I have people (children, parents, etc) who depend on me financially, and my first obligation is to them.  I'd like to do the ethical thing with these guys, but if I did, my income would be reduced, and I just can't let that happen right now.

Any form of unethical behavior can be justified by using excuses like those above.  Perfectly good excuses.  But in the end, we all have to be able to get up in the morning and look at ourselves in the bathroom mirror and like who we see.  

After being surprised to see the many, many posts on this board over the last year by guys who are obviously the victims of providers who are "preying on those who are looking for love",
I think the time has come to bring this subject up.

This is an appeal to you to do the right thing, and let your clients know in no uncertain terms where you stand with them in terms of a romantic relationship.  Friends yes, fond of them fine, but not a romantic relationship.  SAY THE WORDS necessary to let them know how it really is, and don't cop out by saying that you assume that he knows the real score.

Thanks for listening.

I don't see this as a forum in which to find love in.  Not unless, of course, a lady lets it be known on her adds and sites.  A gent is setting himself up if that is what his motivation is in seeing a lady and the same goes for the lady for we all know that 99.9% of the time the last thing a gent wants is a committed relationship.  The ladies gift is more of an insurance policy that we will go away.

Not to sound callous, lighthearted friendships are made and small bonds are forged and that is something that I treasure myself, but by no means do I expect or want anything more.

HB has it down in a nutshell.  But the same applies to the gents.  I cannot count how many times gents try to prey on emotions, profess their love when the bottom line comes down to trying to get a free ride.  Not ethical either.

There are all kinds of people in this forum or any other walk of life that have no ethics, but am sorry to say that IMHO unethical behavior is more prevalent here.  It is a forum in which hustlers on both sides of the fence can flourish for they more often than not can and will get away with their behavior.  To many are to embarrassed about admitting that they have been had and sadly, there isn't much one can do about it.

It is unfortunate, but one must be a little skeptical where relationships are concerned in this forum.  Of course the ladies are going to tell you what you want to hear, it doesn't take Einstein to figure that out.  Any lady that says that it is not monetary should raise the proverbial red flag.  

There is a fine line and yes, there are exceptions to the rule but to often the bottom line about what this forum is all about is clouded and to many times things become too personal.

One has to be on their toes, ladies and gents alike, to wade through the unethical scum that does exist here, but rest assured their are a wealth of diamonds here also.  The trick is finding them and these types of forums are a Godsend in helping with our quest.

Lauren

And you are obviously one of those "diamonds", sweet lady. Thank you for your thoughts. These are keys that all hobbyists and providers should keep in mind at all times. It isn't about love, it is about honesty, trust, respect and pleasure for all involved.

Providers must walk a fine line--the line between catering to a "regular" customer and stringing along a sorry soul who has fallen for her.  I think denial can play a part on both sides of the fence--the provider convinces herself she is really not taking advantage and the client really feels she loves him.  I don't agree that providers are either ethical or not--there is a grey area where some may truly not be aware how their actions effect others.  It can be tough to deal with the realities of such a situation in an atmosphere where two people engage in a level of intimacy in just a few minutes that may take several dates, weeks, even months otherwise.  There will always be those who confuse the intimate act of "making love" with love itself--and unfortunately there will always be those who will "prey" on them, whether on purpose or not.

The line can become blurred when gifts and phone calls are exchanged, and the talk goes beyond a few words of kindness.  You start to wonder - it is real?  Is it manipulation?  Are you being had?  Is she sincere?  Is it dangerous to even think these things?  You start questioning every word, every gesture, wondering if it's all part of the game.  Sure, part of the fun is suspending your sense of reality for a few short hours.  But the connections seem so real and when that preverbial bucket of water slams you in the face - it's not that fantasy that is washed away - sometimes it's your dignity.  And that's when it hurts.

Oh, What a Tangeld Web we weive...
Once we practice to decieve.
Honesty.. Is Still The Best Policy!!

HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYONE..
       2003!!

Sorry ladies, not all of you lie and take advantage of "unsuspecting naive men". BUT, many of you do. A far greater percentage than in any other profession I would suspect. Therefore, any man who does not take EVERYTHING a provider tells him with a grain of salt is a fool and will eventually get seriously burned. Sure I will get trashed for this statement, but that doesn't mean I am wrong. Sorry that those of you providers who are legit get lumped into this category, but that is just the nature of your chosen profession. If you are truly legit, you will understand and accept the truth of what I say. Would I (could I) ever have a real relationship with a provider? Not until the day she says everything is off the clock and that she would be insulted if I offered her anything (including gifts) to see her. Try offering a real date a "gift" to see you and see how quickly she dumps your ass. That is how the real world works. Never forget guys, this here is a BUSINESS.

Excellent post on a far too little discussed topic. I hope more reply with theiir points of view. As for me I have been victum all tooo often of my hopeless romanticism, and am still learning the hard way! Happy Holidays!

Rather than just echo to comments of some others with which I agree, there can be a quandry for an honest, caring provider to deal with relating to this issue.  

Consider that many times when this happens, the client is at least somewhat vulnerable emotionally.  In sensing he has a need for closeness, she may question whether to satisfy that need or not for fear he might mistake her words/actions for something which it is not & thus she may be inclined to hold back.  

Genuine friendship & affection that can be mistaken even by someone not so vulerable..another reason that the showing of such affection can be problematic.  Even for the client to express for fear his feelings can be a question because they could be misunderstood & cause the lady to back away.

Gee, I don't know. You had me agreeing with you until the very end about offering a real date a "gift" and seeing "...how quickly she dumps your ass. That's how the real world works..."

It seems to me that, in the real world, you're quickly showering all kinds of gifts on your regular squeeze (flowers, candy, meals, clothes, jewels and more etc.) or pretty soon you're going to be without. And how many times with a girl that you're seriously dating does she come to you with the need of a "loan". It even makes sense, evolutionarily-speaking, for the girl to expect these gifts. Afterall, she's trying to size up what kind of provider you're going to make for her and her offspring. But for us, we're mostly thinking of giving her enough stuff so that we can get laid.

So I'm not at all sure that a "real" relationship can be solely defined as it being for "free". By the way, these arguments were more eloquently put forth by Tom Cruise in the movie Risky Business.

What about the situation in reverse? What about the guys that prey on providers that are looking for love?They play us for 'freebies' but when we finally fall for it then we get our hearts broken. We ALL are not like you guys think or stereotype us to be. Some of us genuinely want to meet someone for love. Its pretty difficult to find someone that can accept us even though our career choice isnt always an admirable one.
Just wondering...

Hmm..Victoria I never thought about the situation in reverse.  A provider looking for love?  Well, it makes sense.  I would think that it would be incredibly difficult for a provider to find love in her chosen profession.  

When looking for love are you talking about a client you can fall in love with or falling for someone who has no idea what you do for a living?

I don't agree with the last part of your statement though.  You say that you're career choice isn't always an admirable one.  What's not admirable about being a pleasure provider?  Sounds like a much needed vocation if you ask me.

How can one NOT have feelings for another that one has been so intimate with ? All of the qualities that are sought after by men, the same qualities women in the business make claims to, the "realness" of it, are qualities which are designed by nature to unleash a cascade of emotional responses.

You have a wonderful date, enchanting conversation, repair to an attractive copulatory environment and go through activities that suggest a commitment to the transmission of human DNA in our great chain of being.

Should the evening be up there in ninesy-tensy land, lucky boy, your mesolimic system SHOULD be screaming REPRODUCTIVE PARTNER !!!, thanks largely to a hormone known as Oxytocin...

What are the poor frontal lobes supposed to do at moments like these ? Remember lobotomies ? To permit oneself to fully engage the fuckness of it all one must, for all intents and purposes, temporarily lobotomize oneself.

Then, alas, time has run out, the hour of luv has come to an end, and that overtaxed brain of yours has to swiftly turn down the mesolimbic responses and delobotomize, i.e. become one with the inner Spock.

Helllloooo out there...., we're horny guys, not Yogis or Zen masters... we don't know how to wash our intestines in the Ganges river or run silver skewers through our toungues and feel no pain.

Do this hobby thing long enough and you will either become a cynic or a boddhisatva.

Okay...

But you cant put "ALL" the responsibility on the girl. With all the "SINGLES" magazines, church groups and Internet sites out there, you cant tell me that a guy would think his only option for finding "Love" is with a provider.  The gentleman called "her", he knows what she does. There is no delusion. He can delude himself all he wants, but he'll eventually have to reach into his wallet and that's when fantasy flies out the window. He's not on a "date date",he knows he's paying. I truly feel it is wrong for the girl to lead a guy on, but its not like he does not know the deal up front.

But what about the other NON PROFESSIONAL scam artists out there? So many "non-professional" girls go on dates, get all they can out of the poor guy (flowers, dinner, movie...) and these ladies have no interest in the guy other than to let him take her to dinner.

About 5 years ago a friend of mine let a young lady move in with him. She was a student and needed a cheap (or better yet free) place to stay. He had a MAJOR crush on her. He was a decent looking guy, just a little on the geeky side. Boy did she lead him on. Everything she did (from going shopping with him for clothes so he could be "cooler", to letting him cook dinner for her and draw her bath) was designed to make him think he had a chance with her. About 3 RENT FREE months later she moved out, but not before informing him to his face that he was a loser and he never ever had a chance with her. OUCH! Now that hurts. IMHO these girls are worse than dishonest providers, at least you know an escort is in it for the money...you dont even see these other girls coming. :0(

It really comes down to the games men and women play with eachother (in and out of this business) and it's a shame. YES, a provider should be honest with her clients, BUT CLIENTS SHOULD ALSO BE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES.

Sable

Interesting stuff…

FWIW, I choose to see the lady I see, and only her, because of a precious bond that we have developed together. I would be hesitant to use the “L” word in the presence of those on this board, especially in this thread, but we know what is shared between us, and that’s sufficient enough for me.

If the feelings that we share, have enhanced my life, and I believe it’s done some good for her also, then where is the harm in two people caring for each other while we carry out our time on this earth?
I’m old enough, and responsible enough, to realize I may have set myself up for a fall.
To be honest with you, I wasn’t looking for what I found. But what a tragedy it would have been, to have gone through life, and not have experienced feelings like these…

To be alive is a wonderful thing. Once read that everyone dies, but not everyone lives. Since I only get one chance, I'd like to live it to it's fullest.

To have your senses opened up, and experience what life has to offer, is more than most allow themselves to do. But yes, you can get burned if your not careful.

BTW, to that special someone, thank you for being the diamond that you are in my life…

PT







-- Modified on 12/29/2002 2:02:57 AM

Ahhh :0)  I "WILL" use the "L" word here and dare say it out loud...LOVE!

While I'm a realist (see thread above) I will admit that there can be more shared between two people, and that it can be "real"

I fell in love...YES LOVE, with a former client of mine. I did not think he felt the same way, but I took a chance and told him how I felt. LUCKY FOR ME he felt the same way. We saw eachother (For Free) for quite a while, and I am happy to report that what we shared renewed my faith in man (and mankind). It would have sucked (no pun intended) not to experience that with him, and I'm a better person for having met him.

Botton line...KEEP IT REAL FOLKS. If its business, it's business. If it's real say THANK YOU and enjoy yourself. To thine own self be true...always.

Sable



-- Modified on 12/28/2002 9:35:22 PM

defined as: giving the male partner to believe, either by direct statements or by implication, that the female partner will only allow herself to become pregnant with the awareness (and consent) of the male partner. But, by hook or by crook, pregnant she does become.

As I grew older, more prosperous, and less studly, I was flattered (at first) that the females of my species had retained an interest in me. Had all that I had lost in lean muscle and hair follicles been compensated for in soulfulness, poetry, expansive jovian elder maleness ?

Silly me... the cooing young things who gazed deeply into my eyes were looking for Mr. Sperm Donor !!! Even if marriage wasn't contemplated, there was always the enticing prospect of two decades of child support payments. As soon as I wised up to the ruse, I took my male ego up to the attic and locked it in there for the duration.

The second thing I did was discove this wonderful world of paying women directly for simulated species continuity, instead of paying them interminably and ruinously for actual species continuity.

Once my penis was out of harm's way, I began to take the liberty to call some of these melting doe eyed twentysomethings on their intentions and began to laugh at the manipulative obviousness of it. My good humor was not well received. I was treated with the same aversion as one who speaks too freely about money among the heriditary rich ... the "central fact"
of the game is denied in the interest of perpetuating the game.

No sooner than it became clear to all concerned that I was in no wise about to be canoodled into an "unplanned" fatherhood did my sexy halo fall to the floor with a leaden thud.

I couldn't find the earlier post you refer to, so maybe I'm getting this wrong, but what are you expecting exactly?  Should I have some kind of disclaimer printed on cards that I give out at every appointment - "I hereby acknowledge that the service provider has no intention of ever being emotionally involved with me - signed and dated?"  It would seem to me that a client should have his eyes wide open from the outset.

Of course, you're talking about people who may be particularly emotionally vulnerable, but then shouldn't they be going to a therapist and maybe not an SP?  And is it our responsibility if they don't know enough to do that?

I don't want to seem overly cold about this.  I think a lot of times maybe it's more a case of being at cross purposes.  I've tried to be "friends" with a couple of people who started out as clients, and it never worked because we come at it from completely different perspectives.  I thought I was gaining someone I could hang out with, talk to, et cetera.  They seemed mostly interested in the "free" sex, and a completely different dynamic enters the relationship, this boyfriend BS where all of a sudden it's not two equals in a friendship anymore.

Then there's the fact that a lot, most I would imagine, of SPs are young - from 18 to 25 - and you're asking these very young women to have some kind of psychological understanding of emotionally vulnerable men.  Get real!  I've known of 45 year old men who got completely hung up on 18 and 19 year old SPs, dumped huge amounts of money and gifts on them, and you'd blame the "unethical" SP for that?  Who should've known better??

-Anya

I too found that one woman I enjoyed the company of.
I too felt we had a bond.  She also opened my senses to the joys of life and living the moment to the fullest.
We spent 2 wonderful years together. At least 2 days a month. As much as 10. I traveled to see her on the West Coast if that was most convenient for her and we traveled together all over the US and Mexico when best for her. I always paid and she made it very clear my love for her was never to be reciprocated in kind. Nonetheless from our time together I felt I was a positive in her life. I had and have unconditional love for her. I got great satisfaction out providing pleasure and financial support for her. But last summer it was brought to my attention she had changed alias and upon reading reviews on TER and other boards I realized I was merely a "cash cow".
I, like most men, aspired to be a stud. Not just the ultimate lover mind you, more than just as the term applies to sex. Everyone's time comes up. A stud, when its time is up, out of appreciation for its financial contribution to a business and even some emotional attachment is sent out to pasture. A cow when it is milked dry and loses its financial value, is slaughtered and replaced. I was slaughtered.
So enjoy the moment.
For most hobbyists that is what it is all about. I wasn't looking for love when I started nearly 3 years ago. Yes, I had a wonderful time with 35-40 escorts other than the one I committed my life to at the end.
But some men find a bond or friendship that despite paying for that companionship is real. It goes beyond the sex.
Not only can this "hobby" be dangerous. These boards can be too. The truth hurts.
Enjoy the moment for what it is. Beyond that, this is a risky business for those vulnerable people referenced in this thread. Maybe they do need therapy. I know I do. But it doesn't take away from the real feelings. Both pleasureable and pain.

I agree that responsibility rests with both parties.  When I refer to those who are "looking for love", I am of course talking about those who are emotionally vulnerable.  When I mention "preying upon" these people, I mean being aware that they believe a romantic relationship is developing, and allowing them to continue to believe it without telling them the complete truth about how you actually feel about them, and doing this for financial reasons.

Regarding oxytocin, I'm not the expert on these matters that SeventhSon is, but I believe that oxytocin's primary purposes are to cause the muscles of delivering mothers to contract during labor and to stimulate the release of milk from breastfeeding mothers, so I was confused about the notion that it plays a role in causing emotional bonding during adult male-female intercourse.

No need for cards! LOL. But yes, as a matter of fact, I do think that SPs should make it very clear (by telling them in a conversation) the honest truth about how they feel about a client as soon as they get any indication that the client believes that a romantic relationship is developing.  The reason that unethical SPs don't do this is usually financial.  That kind of emotional exploitation for financial gain is just plain wrong.  By the way, it is also wrong when a man does it to a woman - we all know what a pimp is.

Regarding the 18 to 25 year old SPs, the reason I wrote my original post in this forum is that there are virtually no SPs under 25 who participate in the TER general discussion board.  My audience did indeed consist almost entirely of women who are old enough and have enough life experience to be able to tell when a client thinks a romantic relationship is developing.  

Of course an emotionally vulnerable man should be going to a therapist.  Going to an SP "looking for love" is of course not something he should be doing.  You have no way (usually) of knowing that he is one of these guys at the outset, and it is unreasonable to expect you to.  BUT once he has given you an indication that he thinks a romantic relationship is developing, and you fail to set him straight in no uncertain terms (yes, even if it means he will not see you again and you will lose that income), you are an unethical SP who is exploiting him.

Some people think that exploitation is "the way of the world", and that everyone is ultimately either an exploiter or a victim.  Those people usually were as children either victims of exploitation or saw their loved ones exploited.  But their viewpoint, while understandable, is one that I simply do not share.

I think that men who can become true friends are definitely out there for someone as articulate and intelligent as you.  This may seem like odd advice, but perhaps a man who is not particularly attracted to you sexually and has other very satisfactory sexual outlets would be the most likely person to become a true friend.

Many of the circulating hormones are "pluripotent", that is they will have different effects depending on the person's gender and nature of the target cells. For example, increased insulin levels will stimulate fat cells to lay down more fat, while liver cells will increase glycogen formation.

Thanks for the info, Nicole.  I've been meaning to read that book.  So many good books, so little time!

I think there are many people who exploit because they have themsleves been exploite. Yet, they can still find the best in themselves (after resolving their issues with the help of therapy or by other means), and discover the joy of nonexploitative relationships.

over here on lonely research island, we take a particular interest in the posterior pituitary gland.

The old model was that the pp gland secreted two major hormones that, oxytocin and vasopressin. Oxytocin caused uterine contractions at childbirth and the release of milk from the engorged breast. Vasopressin, otoh, is an "anti-diuertic" hormone that causes the body to retain fluid.

So much for the old model.

Oxytocin and Vasopressin are nearly, but not exactly identical in structure, differing by only 9 amino acids in the entire sequence of the protein.

Both now appear to be intimately involved with being intimate.

Vasopressin is now associated with the "apetitive" phase of sexual attraction, up to the orgasm itself, where its concentration will be at a maximum.

Oxytocin will be slowly increasing during the apetitive phase, but really comes into its own as the afterglow hormone, when the vasopressin levels decline.

Oxytocin is either higly opoid in nature, or acts as a potent releasing agent for endorphins. When oxytocin is released, your feelings of security, connection, enjoyment of the company of the other, and such goodness that sex provides, will be accentuated.

Over here on research island we are empiricists. We taste the brew to confirm the rumors.

Thus, a supply of both oxytocin nasal spray (mfg. by Novartis) and a supply of vasopressin nasal spray (mfg. by Ferring) was obtained in order to conduct a series of experiments.

Oxytocin was insufflated (i.e. shnorted up the schnoz) in several dosages, in several contexts, to ascertain the effects of oxytocin by itself.

The effect is not felt immediately upon insufflation, but requires a period of 20-30 minutes to assert its effect. This suggests that oxytocin is acting as a releasing agent for another chemical messenger in the brain, which then produces the observable consequences of oxytocin administration.

After about 20 minutes, a mild , transitory tightening in the chest is felt (does this suggest something about the "breathlessness" one feels when aroused ?) followed by an extended feeling of well being, empathy, general acceptance of one's circumstances, being a little stoned. Humor is good, sleep is deep and restorative, and life's problems feel distant and unthreatening. All the classic symptoms of in love-ness.
The absolutely weird part of it was the in love-ness with no love object connected to the state. This discontinuity was noted as an atypical emotional condition.

Upping the ante, I repaired to my favorite asian massage establishment and administered a strong dose prior to a lengthy
slathering by one of the most able women employed there.

After the oxytocin had taken hold, I experienced a market warming of my hands and feet (indicating decreased activity in the sympatheic nervous system) and a sense of "zero gravity" total relaxation. Oddly, even though the massage had an intimate to erotic tone and was done with real expertise, I experience NO interest in sex. As far as my lower brain was concerned, I already had the most phenomenal sex in my life, and this was the triumphal post orgasmic massage.

Afterwards, I noted all of the things often described in the reviews after awesome sex... weak shaky knees, a stupified sense of wonder, "my God what was that ??!!"... I had succeeded in tricking my brain into the response it normally reserves for wild threesomes with the most luscious of providers.

Aha ! You say... you sold me.... where can I get this stuff... it sounds too good to be true !!!

It is.

What nature giveth, nature taketh away. Endocrine systems are tightly regulated. If too much of something gets going, the hypothalamus gets busy and reverses course, downregulating the normal levels of oxytocin and upregulating the not-fun hormone Prolactin.

Prolatin is the Yin to Oxytocin's yang. It makes you reclusive, anti-social, turfy, unwilling to cut anyone any slack, un-romantic as all hell, and a tinge morbid. Its' effects are also long lived.

Thus a massive jolt of Oxytocin one evening will be followed by five days or so of of Prolactin bluesy grumpies. This in all probability explains the endocrine basis for the "post overnighter blues" that so many men described in the thread prior to this one.

Well, there is more to be said on this subject, as there are dopamine agonists which will lessen the impact of Prolactin... but that's another story for another day...

As for Vasopressin. No, we didn't forget about Vasopressin. If oxytocin is the post orgasmic hormone, vasopressin is the pre-orgasmic hormone... but I'll leave you with something to look foreward to in my next transmission from Reaearch Island...

We need you to stick around so we can read about you accepting the Nobel for groundbreaking work on The Effects of Brain Chemistry on Sexual Behavior.

Cheers.

Sounds like you are still paying for all this time together. If you are, and you still think in terms of the "L" word, just know that she is not the only one laughing at you ... we all are. Sorry to be so cruel, but I would deem it much crueler to let you live in a fantasy world and be destroyed by another manipulative woman. One of the biggest problems in this hobby is that low self esteemed men allow themselves to be taken....... You know, I take all this back. Now that I think about it, I believe in personal responsibility. You go for it guy, and if you get destroyed in the process, guess that is just Darwin at work. Good luck, whichever way it turns out. Have a feeling you'll need it.

It's pretty obvious that in any communicative endeavor, partners of any ilk need to not just assume the other "gets it," but also ENSURE by SAYING THE APPROPRIATE WORDS that the other "gets it."

But then, YOU try to get a female to be proactive, and definite, about communication, to the point that she (a) has to take responsibility for her own decisions and actions and (b) might actually put herself in a logistical and "power" disadvantage concerning opportunity to emotionally manipulate by means of misdirection.

This is a "boy versus girl" issue, in general (although there are members of each gender who cross into the other's generalization, of course!) because, largely, females find their power by means of emotional coersion. You're asking them to give up their one weapon in the name of "doing the right thing." What are you giving them in exchange, other than the warm glow of self-satisfaction?


-- Modified on 12/30/2002 8:27:33 PM

Ever want to get to really know someone? Spend some serious time with them. Get to know their heart, their dreams and the passions in their lives. I can tell you we have spent some time together. She is The Golden Ring, I feel the “Diamond” that we seek as humans…maybe I’m biased

I couldn’t begin to share with you (nor do I care to) the details of our relationship. But I can tell you this, this woman has been a positive, life changing experience for me and I am grateful to be able to share some part of our lives together. As far as being taken advantage of, you just know when you’re in a give-take relationship, and most of the time I have to keep myself in check to make sure I don’t take too much.
I think another key here is EXPECTATIONS. I don’t expect her to change her life for me, I know who she is, what she does and I still LOVE her just the same (thank you Sable, I’m not afraid to use that word either). I don’t expect her to change. Likewise, she knows me, and doesn’t expect me to walk away from my responsibilities and change my life around either…

Many years ago a friend got me involved in one of those MLM business “opportunities”. I put a lot of myself into building a strong client base and developing my business, but faced reality after a couple of years and admitted that it just wasn’t my cup of tea. The person that got me involved was saddened that I hadn’t succeeded to make the BIG money that everyone was after.
I explained to him that the experience I had received, the people I had met, trips I had taken and so on, had greatly enriched my life. Even if the golden ring hadn’t been achieved (from his point of view), I felt the whole experience had been a positive, life changing experience! I invested some money during those years involved, was it wasted? Of course not…

As far as the money goes with my lady friend, and again, I don’t care to share too much, I am not exactly the greatest financial catch. Do I stop supporting her because we share feelings between us? I’ve read about many here who have been burned for thousands and thousands of $$$ that they have “loaned” their ATF. Sorry, not capable of letting that happen, because I don’t have it. Again, I don’t care to share details, but “paying” for it is not an issue with me and I don’t see why it is with so many. I could go much further in this area, but choose not to…

Am I living in a fantasy world? I am very much a realist, almost to a fault. But I do know a good thing when I feel it.
I also am a big believer in personal responsibility. I wish more people were. Always like to remind people that when they point a finger at someone, there are three more pointing back at themselves…

And as far as self esteem goes, YOU don’t know me. Someone jokingly told me the other day that they would have to find a bigger place to hold my memorial service at, (I’m still in my early 40’s). I’m leaving my mark, and it’s a good one as far as I’m concerned.

Humor is one of my strong points; love to find it in everything I do (always the Imp, so I’m told)
So enjoy your laugh, glad I could put a smile on your face, I can handle it!

PT

There are a great many people in the TER community who think of relationships between the sexes as "boy versus girl", power, and "weapons".

"Power is what we settle for when we give up on finding love".  This is the theme of Jungian analyst Jean Shinoda Bolen's terrific book "The Ring of Power: Love vs Power in Wagner's Ring Cycle and in Us", which also offers some intersting insights into father-daughter relationships.

One of the things people want most from life is to feel that they MATTER, that they have influence on the world around them. One way to do this is to manipulate others emotionally, but it is not the healthiest way.  We can instead have a powerful positive influence on others in ways that enrich the lives of everyone concerned.

Doing the right thing is indeed the most important thing.  It is critical to healthy self-esteem.  Women who have been unethical in the past but choose to now be more ethical will gain huge rewards in self-esteem.  They must sometimes weigh that against the financial rewards of being unethical, but the point is to not undervalue the personal rewards of ethical behavior in terms of self-esteem.

But there is of course another reason that many men and women think of relationships in terms of manipulation and exploitation.  That is because as children, they experienced these things at the hands of trusted adults, or witnessed their loved ones experiencing them.  Women who are angry at men are often women who have unresolved issues with their fathers.  Men who are angry at women often have unresolved issues with their mothers.  An example might be a man whose mother manipulated him emotionally as a boy, perhaps by withholding love unless he allowed himself to be manipulated. Resolving those issues with their opposite-gender parent, something that does require that the parent be present or even still alive, will go a long way toward improving their relationships with the opposite sex.

Relationships can indeed be about respect and caring.  Do not think that all women are as you describe them.

speaking for the one atf relationship that grew into something more... when we started out there was head gaming back and forth. We didn't know it or really intend it... I think it was the result of both of us being inured to all the pitfalls and manipulation, confusion and delusion that makes the biz the big collective psychotherapy session that it is.

Over time, a lot of time, not without aguments, upsets, being out of touch for months and getting back in touch, overall wondering WTF was going on... we kinda got to a good place where it wasn't about manouvering...

We discovered, to our mutual surprise, that we weren't only about getting sexed up or romantically goo goo (although we can get there when the stars are aligned just so)

What we are about is bringing out the best in each other. We keep pushing each other to be a little better, use our minds one degree more sharply, express ourselves more clearly...

The deal is "you be the knife, I'll be the whetstone, then let's switch"...

With some relationships, it feels like the transaction is that you give each other permission to be one click lazier, self satisfied, more on cruise control... I've been in those myself, they're initially comfrotable but eventually you feel like you're suffocating in warm molasses.

I've really come to appreciate the cool warmth of energizing respect. You finish the day with more self respect.

expectations seem realistic. I just think it is doing a service to warn the many "needy" guys that as long as money is concerned, the potential to be taken advantage of is great. To remind them to be aware and wary. Best of luck to you and the lady, you'll need it ... but I would be saying that anytime a guy gets involved with a woman, even if she wasn't a provider ....lol.