Ya know it seems no matter what theater you're in this scene is played or re-played.  I'm talking about being taken for granted. Married couples are guilty of it as well as every other form of relationship.
   I'm single, in my 40s and because of 2 failed marriages and a job that constantly reminds me of the futility and liability found in modern matrimony I use the hobby as my "millenium dating".
   My ATF was recently bemoaning the fact that even though she has a client list twice the length of her arm. Few of the names repeat on even a semi regular basis. Odly the next day when we were together she "short-shifted" me and this was just hours after saying how grateful she was for my "regular" attendance.  
   Now I know a great many of you will say "it's time for a new ATF" but the truth is I have seen this type of behavior from ladies who I merely visited 3 or more times in a couple of months. It seems that as important as repeat business is to providers you ladies tire of our loyalty and show it by several forms of indifference to your client and his needs.
   I'm dissapointed that the same careless "he'll learn to accept less" attitude can be found with women who should be giving a totally professional effort especially with the one faction that a business usually values so dearly...
REPEAT BUSINESS.

The idea of real repeats may just be an elusion in most cases.  A very popular provider in Phoenix has said that a regular usually has a life-span of four visits.  She has seen one client over 150 times in the past three years but that is a total execption. I have a friend that falls in love with about every fifth provider he sees.  Spends tens of thousands of dollars on them and tries to get them to marry him.  So far no takers, lucky them, but is that what we mean by ATF.  I think most of us are in this for the excitement of variety and sometimes it takes a lot to see a provider a second time.  For me it is never looks, the body or just the sex that will bring me back.  It is the personality and the bond formed between us.  That has happened about one out of 50 or 60 times with me.  But when it does it sure is great.

Always a SlowStart

but if this was the case (theoretically) i think i'd prefer it if she just cut me off as opposed to short-shrift me in order to drive me away ... and make it seem like it was my decision to not see her anymore because of that sour deal, as opposed to her wanting me to go away for whatever reason.

and if what i just said doesn't make any sense to you, welcome to a woman's mind!  LOL

seriously ladies, we love you. we don't understand you 95% of the time, but we love you just the same -- god help us!  

I think we get in this "tweener" stage between more than a client but less than a real friend.  
Mine will have me do stuff for her, ask family advise, but will ignore me for a week at a time.  Did an overnight with her once including a show, she arranged it all but then wanted to meet me at the show instead of before hand, then changed her mind, showed up early to party, but announced she had to leave early in the am for another appointment but then stayed till the early afternoon. Invited a girl friend to party with us when we got back from the show.  Had me adjust her computer so she could record music for another guy.  And this was all one overnight so if your head is spinning, try being there.

I am supposed to go away on vacation with her, been planned for awhile but
I am wondering if I can take the stress. ATF's

Somebody help me come back to reality.

lost without a clue.

I for one would never ever do that to a client, a first time or a long term. BUT, what I will tell you. How about us ladies who get stiffed from regulars and potentials??
I recently had a long time client just disapear. I have seen him for 1.5 years, once a month. He told me in January we would be going to London together for 5 days. (I told him at that time, its wasn't necessary, his reply, this will be great, don't worry.) Anyway, May comes by (I see him 3 days before we are supposed to go.) I asked him again, are you sure we are going, I was told yes. That day was the last I ever heard from him. He never called, emailed, apologized. Nothing. I didn't deserve that. Even an email would have been sufficient.
My point is, NOT everyone is cut from the same cloth. You might have had a bad experience, but guess what MOST of us had too.
Sorry to hear about your experience, but don't put me in the same catagory...some of us ladies wouldn't never do that~
Shaye

...both tactical and strategic. Both specific to this woman and global in your relationships with all women (I suspect).

In this particular case, what has happened is you've allowed what was a friendly but professional relationship with certain expectations (yours) to become a personal relationship that she defines both the boundaries of ("we'll do this...no, we'll do this) and the rules / expectations ("fix my computer, not for your benefit, but for the benefit of someone else...never mind that YOU are paying ME right now")

More to the true broad nature of the problem, I suspect the whole reason you "hobby" (and I could be wrong) is because of your lack of success in finding, and lack of satisfaction once you have found, relationships with women (at least women you find desirable). You have an ATF not because you simply are a slut dog who likes sex, and likes sex with beautiful women all the better (as I sheepishly raise my hand...), but because you are attempting to BUY the relationship from a professional that you were unable to successfully forge with a civilian. However, since you've never have come to grips with WHY this is...your lack of success with women...(and again, I am prepared to be totally wrong about this)...you are duplicating the same mistake is THIS relationship with THIS woman.

I bet you are a guy who always wonders "what is SHE doing with HIM??" whenever you see a good looking woman with a guy who is fat, or who dress poorly, or who clearly is not on top of the world financially. You wonder, "what is that about" when you hear your escort companions talk about their "loser" BFs who they can't / won't leave for a "great guy" like you (the fact that they even discuss their BFs with you...their "family problems"...is a further symptom of the true issue).

What you (possibly) haven't grasped yet, over the years and years of experience...is that what (most) women want from men...more than money...more than good looks (women are FAR less visual than we are)...more than anything else...is for a man TO BE A MAN. When a man is A MAN, it makes a woman FEEL like a woman.

What does that mean? Well...it doesn't mean acting like an asshole 24/7, or slapping her around. Sure, some dysfunctional women go for that...I personally have no interests in relationships with such women.

What it does mean is setting the boundaries and tenor for the relationship. Not being controlling, but taking the lead, and even more so, making it clear where YOU will NOT go.

You've confused "kindness" (which is always a good thing) with whimpyness. You've confused making an effort to not be demanding (a good thing) with being compliant.

Beautiful women can smell a tendency for this behavior in men like dogs can smell fear...because MOST men fawn over them, and try to win favor by becoming their "subjects". Want to get the attention of a beautiful woman? Pretend she isn't beautiful...stop catering to her and instead demand a level playing field...either she treats you in a manner that meets your expectations, or you will find someone that will.

Your ATF recognizes in you your "weakness"...thus she takes you for granted because she knows not only will you allow HER to set the boundaries and expectations, but that you are also not prepared to end things out of dissatisfaction. SHE is running the relationship, despite your best efforts at "control" via payment of funds.

Virtually all relationships that are not equity based (meaning everybody has an "equal" amount of "skin" in the game, even if that skin is different in nature) are doomed to fail. However, since few relationships are truly equity based for their entire time period (it is this lack of equity that kills a relationship 4 times out of 5), then YOU as a MAN had better either A) get it back to where it needs to be...this is what you do in civilian relationships with women whom you care for...or B) Makes sure YOU are always holding the "equity" chip...and when you aren't end it right then and there (this is how you SHOULD be relating to your "ATF"...who is not your GF...)

She (your "ATF") has lost respect for you, because you tried to BUY it, versus demanding it. She asks you to do things not out of "friendship", but because she sees you as just another resource in her life, another subject to do her bidding. Her changing the plans, being wishy washy regarding what time she would be leaving, deciding who would be joining you (apparently without pre planning this with you), and then (this is the true revealer of her nature), asking you to do her a "favor" for the benefit of another guy, are all signs that as far as she is concerned, she is calling the shots...exclusively. Sometimes the decisions SHE makes actually are to your liking (like her inviting her GF over I suspect), but make no mistake, she isn't doing them FOR you (did you have to pay the GF too? If you did, then TRUST ME...it wasn't about you...)

Me? I would suggest ending this relationship before her lack of respect becomes out and out contempt, and you level of satisfaction further declines...you are already in this "game" for several thousand dollars...and yet, here you are in this same place, insofar as your dealings with a woman.

You guys need to learn...the "hobby" is about sex and money. When you try to make it about anything else...you end up sorry. This doesn't mean you can't be friendly, and have good time. It doesn't have to be "wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am".

But you can't BUY a relationship. A person either wants to enjoy your company (and if they did, they will do so for free) or they don't. Period.

There is your reality check. Remember, you asked for it...


-- Modified on 6/30/2003 9:48:55 AM

I've been seeing my ATF at least once a week for several months. because of my consistancy she graciously has allowed me a 1/2 price discount for most of the time I have been seeing her. This is however a "bone of contention" with her. At full price I can only see her twice a month (at best) and then whats to stop me from switching over to the "Variety" mentality.
  Ladies; Honestly am I missing something here or is she being a bit of an ingrate. Again for MANY reasons I would rather address & solve this problem than to take the often recomended avenue of "moving on" (nobody wins there).

Some women get bored with men, just as men get bored with women. It sounds like that may be the case. I know there are times when I notice the flame missing when a regular comes and sees me. When I start to notice it, I will refer him to see another friend of mine in hopes that he gets the hint. I would rather set  him up with someone else, who will be able to give him that special relationship, that I can no longer give to him. Maybe she is hinting around to you, that it is time to move on?


Signed,

Miss Variety

wow ... do i have your permission to print that out and pin it to my bathroom wall so i can re-read it everytime i shave?  LOL

yes i'm laughing, but in a serious way  

This sheds some new light on your dilemna. This is a sore spot with me as some of my clients have tried this in the past. It is normally the low volume, pain in the ass clients that ask for the deepest discounts. It inevitably ruins a relationship, and is a lose/lose situation.

As a business owner, when a client asks me for a deep discount, or their loyalty may diminish and they may possibly take some or all of their bus. elsewhere, I help them make up their mind real fast. I am not going to get into specifics here, but, everytime a client has asked me for a deep, ongoing discount, the service they recieved from that day forward suffered, either by thinking they would get the same unparalleled service at a discounted price from my company, or by going to the cheaper, not as experienced or equipped competition.

Yes, ATFs are great to have, but please remember it is never personal, just business.

I am close to some of my "non-intimate" business relationships (talk about family, hit a golf game occassionally, etc.) but I always keep in mind that there is a "separation" betweeen us called our personal lives.

Enjoy ATFs when available, but remember that it will always be a matter of "What have you done for me lately!".

To be quite candid, the only thing you can plan on is the attention you get at the time of service.  Everything else is pure icing on the cake.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

I wish your advice had been around a while ago.  I'd be a lot happier, and have a lot more money, had I had the opportunity to read your ideas back then.  Fortunately for me, I eventually tumbled to the same conclusion myself, but it took a while.

One day I told the providers I was seeing regularly, and whom I though of as friends, that I would no longer pay anyone to be my friend.  I explained that I'd love to continue seeing them as boyfriend and girlfriend, but that I insist our relationships no longer be based on money.

As you might expect, most disappeared so fast, had a window not been open, the vacuum caused by their departure would have burst my eardrums.  But three stuck around.  We didn't see each other as often, but we spent more time together when we did get together.  Our dates were just that -- dates.  And most weren't lavish, either.  We'd go out for a modest dinner, see a movie, sometimes a show, or we might stay home and watch DVDs.  Things real people do on dates.  Sometimes we wound up in bed, sometimes we didn't.

All the girls (provider or civilian) knew I was seeing several others.  Some of you know I've recently entered into an exclusive relationship with one of the civilians I've been seeing.  She's actually met my provider-friends, and understands they will continue to be friends of mine, even though we'll no longer be intimate.

I say all this to illustrate how on-point is your advice.  I encourage all hobbyists to go along with Singleton's idea:  Print out MyLifeAsMe's post, and read it daily.  Had I not taken control of my relationships, I'd probably be an emotional and financial wreck.

doesn't interfere with your blissful life.

Thank you and take care,

GC

change constantly.

and all th efollowup is free as much as you want.  So I sometimes have trouble dealing with point of sale services.  I expect a friendly call from the service asking if I was pleasedd and if there is anything else they can do to help me.  I know this is completely unrealistic but a little bit more attention does seem to assure return customers.

My not really worth .02

... of MONEY!

Well I suppose as with anything, we're only getting one side of the story here. You say she short shifted you... but you don't say how. Did she have to leave early due to a family problem? Or somesuch? Or did she just cruelly kick you to the curb? Did you try to overstay your welcome? Especially when she's giving you the deal of a half price discount for being such a regular, repeat client, if you try to stay 90 minutes when you're paying half price for 60.... eeks! Did you talk to her about it later???

I am seeing way too many questions unanswered here...

Hugs*
Nicole

I am in awe of this post - it's so excellent. It is so true, and applies to men and women in how they relate to each other in any type of relationship.
I think I am going to print this out, too!
All of the responses are great - I think this kind of communication is very important between us - if we have to use our aliases to do so! LOL
I want the Hobby itself to be successful in the general sense and at the individual client level. This hobby is bound to have its bumps and I think it's important to know what to do when you reach a bump.
You might remember I've talked about putting together some SOP's but there are areas that aren't as black and white; as clear.
I'm lucky. My business is simple - I haven't run into the complexities that are discussed here. My business has been more my Pleasure, and I keep it so very, very part time as to not run into these things. But, I'm also taking it in new directions, and with that comes new circumstances and I've had to think about 'well, now what?'. Who is Sedona and what does she want? What type of business does she want to have and also not have, and why? I'm so thankful to have my sister Provider friends to discuss some of this stuff with.
I don't know how to advise you with your ATF - I don't want to say cut her loose, but maybe take a break from her for a while and perhaps approach her differently the next time. Maybe she is bored, as one suggests, or maybe she sees you as clingy or needy - and that's a huge turn-off. Perhaps rather than once a week, pay the full price and see her once or twice a month. But, most definitely - gain your control.

xo,
Sedona

Next time you go to the grocery store, tell the manager that since you buy the same cereal every week, you'd like a discount or you'll start buying your groceries elsewhere.  With any luck, he'll be able to answer you with a straight face.

With personal service, it's a little different but a 1/2 price discount is taking it too far.  Especially if she is a popular provider, she is taking a cut in pay every time she sees you - so why would you expect her to show any enthusiam.

You would be better off to pay more and see her less often.

I have a regular that I've been seeing for over a year (usually once or twice a month), but I pay the regular price and I usually leave a tip.  She is always happy to see me and makes me feel special every time we meet.

You have three questions. So, I'm saying Yes;probably;Yes

I'd like to put a question out there, first, to all the Providers. Not even expecting a posted reply, but rather, if you took the time to write down on a piece of paper some things:

1) If you could custom design your own Provider Business, and have it exactly the way you wanted it, what would it be? Then, I'll get back to that..

2) Describe the ideal client (referring to attitude, intentions, mindset, emotions, etc - how you want him to relate to you)

3) Guys - do the same: describe your perfect Hobbying

4) Guys - describe your ideal Provider and how you want the two of you to relate

5) Boundaries - who is responsible for keeping things within the designated boundaries - her, or you? Or both? The boundary 'reminders' can be uncomfortable - how can they be made or presented easier? Maybe by not going beyond them in the first place?

6) Gray areas - they're so damn uncomfortable! It ignites this tension immediately, and I hear about these things all the time!

For example, let's say a gentleman emails a Provider he hasn't seen in a while (due to being on opposite coasts) and says he really misses her, will fly her out to NY (example) for them to be together for 3 or 4 hours, and then put her right back on the plane to go home. What do you think goes through her mind, and what kind of strain is immediately placed? She's wondering about the $ - NOT because that's the ONLY thing she thinks about, but because it sets the expectations AND because he didn't mention it, so now she's stressing because she's placed in a position she doesn't want to be in! If she says 'this', it could go sour. So, what helps and eliminates that, is this. If he had emailed her all the same, and told her what he'd be willing to pay then at least you know where he's coming from and are merely in a place of saying yes, or no, or at least having a starting volley point. I'm sure that most Providers might say, well, it's right on my website that a 12 hour visit is $2400 and it would be at least 12 hours of my time, even though we are only spending 3 or 4 hours together..(and of course the cost of the ticket) and that it's B&W, and if he can't pay that, then it's quite clear I won't go. But, others might feel that it's very flattering to have someone want to see you so badly they'd make those arrangements and hope you'd accept the invitation - because he can choose 100's of ladies locally, at a fraction of the cost..If she accepts, she may still feel taken advantage of and might resent it, but if she declines because he can't pay the $3000 it will end up costing him, then there's sour grapes. So, what to do? Guys, how can this be circumvented - be a win/win?

And the same goes with another situation we ladies are familiar with. We'll say same state: NY - he flies out to the West Coast primarily to see her (let's say) and he wants to spend the entire day with her, sight seeing, having fun, then later in the evening have the dinner time and intimate time. There could be some tension or strain in wondering what to 'charge', or what he 'should' pay? There are some who see that as B&W that he's 'on the clock' from the minute they are together until they bid adieu; others might feel that it's only fair to 'charge' for the dinner date portion of the day. But, regardless, is one right or wrong over the other? And sometimes can it be a YMMV? Again, how can these situations go better?

Repeat business. There's no better business than repeat business. It bothers me to not have a client repeat. I can't help but wonder if I didn't live up to his expectations, and wish I could get that feedback if that were so. What are the reasons a gent repeats; does not repeat? I had a client tell me that he only sees a Provider twice and no more, as this helps him stay on track emotionally. I appreciate that explanation. Maybe some Hobbyists are on limited funds and can only hobby once a month - so they take the buffet. In that case, if I were a Hobbyist in that situation, I would too! But, if I had a list of 15 ladies I wanted to see, I'd see all 15 and probably go back to the one I liked best and maybe narrow it down to a small handful to share my time with.

Back to the ideal Provider business. Most of my Provider friends say the exact same thing. In order for me to really enjoy the hobby, have the longevity of the business/pleasure, and yet maintain 'low mileage' on the body, I would like say 20 or 30 clients who are reliable, committed regulars that I see on either a monthly basis, bi-weekly, etc. I would like the business to be underground, by word of mouth only, in the event I take someone new. No website, no exposure. Most of the ladies I know are attempting to get there; that's the goal. They are tiring of the time investing in 'soliciting' business, the screening and all of that, when they want their business 'set'. All they have to do is look at the calendar and see that if it's Tuesday, it must be Bertram....I think you'll see that more and more in Providers who are 5+ years in. I think you gents out there who are businessmen, particularly self-employed can understand that. Your first 5 years you're building your business and growing your clientele, and then you want to coast a bit from that, and simply WORK the business, and have that behind you. Same here..I know that's what I want! The ladies are building their business to a 'set' point..

Cumtothinkofit..it appears that she appreciates your 'regular' business, but having a hard time determining how, or whether she appreciates YOU. I'd say, if you still want to see her, see her less often, and make it more of the appointment-date, and less of a personal date, and leave shortly after the sex, leaving HER wanting you to perhaps stay longer. Nope, can't stay - see you in two or three weeks. Gain the control. I think this will help put you back on track.

Sorry, all, for being so long..thanks for sticking with me this far..

remember, this is a business. No matter how you look at it, it's business. Mixed with pleasure, of course

I think you need the reality check.  I agree with what MyLifeAsMe stated in his post.  However based upon your second post I think this situation is basically beyond repair.  You state that she graciously has agreed to see you at half price but that it is a bone of contention with her.  That sounds to me like you twisted her arm into this deal and she resents you for it.  That resentment will probably not go away even if you started paying her full price again.  Obviously you may regard her as your ATF but it does not sound like the feeling is mutual.

You stated that your ATF and other providers in your area have the "he'll learn to accept less" attitude and that she does not have many regular clients. It is possible that some of these ladies do not want regular clients although most providers claim that they want regulars.  Some clients want to only see a provider once and other clients are looking for regulars.

In the Los Angeles area it seems that a number of the top providers seem to have all the regulars that they want.  At times some of these providers have been so busy with regulars that they have stopped seeing new clients or have only accepted new clients as regulars have died, moved, dropped off, etc.  In some cases because of the loyalty of their regulars the ladies have almost stopped advertising and actually have a low profile in the business.  In many cases these providers are charging market rates that are similar to what other providers are charging.  I don't believe that most providers will allow a bad deal to be shoved down their throat.  It is interesting that your ATF allowed this deal to happen.  

Do you think that many of the ladies you have seen with the "he'll learn to accept less" attitude have a large following of regulars?  Do you think there is a reason that your ATF has a large client list but very few regulars?

-- Modified on 6/30/2003 12:30:43 PM

I say ouch and amen to that in every way.  If your not in the mental health field you should be.  Thanks for the insight.

-- Modified on 6/30/2003 2:53:07 PM

I had my ATF do the same thing....I've moved on. She still calls, but as far I'm concerned it's over. There are just too many ladies and so little time.

These Hobbyists who think they have a 'special' relationship with a Provider are kidding themself (I'm sure there are exceptions but not many). If you didn't have any money you'd be as useless to these women as an ice cube is to a polar bear. And if you could pick up women this beautiful and have guaranteed sex with them by just buying them dinner and a ticket to a movie, you would and would never see another Provider. I read the 'puppy love' stories on this board and just shake my head and laugh.

Having said all that I still think we should treat each other as we would like to be treated. We are all in this together.

I'm saving this post of yours, along with many others, (including PM's) you have written.  You have a way of cutting through the crap and exposing the truth better than anyone I can remember.  I am in awe.

all, this is baseball season and Giants are doing good.

i thought you knew i was your friendly TER-nemesis ... singleton!

you know, SINGLE-TON ... as in a TON of SINGLES !  LOL

just ribbin' ya!

singularly yours,
singleton (aka "A Participator")

PS. ok, maybe not that funny. but it's 2AM here in the East!

Yes. You are missing something.

"At full price" you can only see her twice a month. So you expect her to charge you half price so YOU can see her twice as much? Or else you threaten to go somewhere else? And she's being an "ingrate"????

Sounds to me like you don't appreciate the fact that she has a client list a mile long, but takes the time to see you EVERY week. At half the price!!! Hello? She may be your ATF. I'm sure she appreciates that you see her with regularity, but I highly doubt you are her ATF. You certainly wouldn't be mine, as nice as you may be. Nobody wins if you "move on"? Doesn't sound like anybody is winning now. Maybe you 'cuz you're taking up her time for half of what she feels she is worth. You are basically telling her she is only worth 50%. Yet you expect 100%. Oh yeah, that'll work. Pay up. No excuses. Stop blaming her. That would probably solve your problems. After all, she is your ATF. You will eventually get the boot anyway if you don't. But not before she dishes out a bit of resentment towards you. Enjoy. BTW, do you tip her? LOL

overboard.  Enjoy my reviews - you will know they are written by me when you read them.  Couple of those ladies might tour your city soon.

It is time for me to go to bed and get ready for tomorrow's appointment.

Happy hobbying.

Like others, I've copied and printed the response from MyLifeAsMe.  While it may not fit everyone's situation to the 't', it is damn good advice. Having "contributed" 20-large so far this year to one well known adult film entertainer, and just about to drop another 10, this was the perfectly timed "slap up side the head" that I...and I suspect many others....need.
Thanks for the Reality Check

I received this as junk email but find it holds true particularly under the discussion here. I guessing he won't mind that added sales pitch.


The Ten Biggest Mistakes
YOU Probably Make With Women Right Now—
And What To Do About It...

Here Are The Top Ten Reasons Why Men Fail With Women - And How To Make Sure YOU Avoid Every One Of These Deadly Common Mistakes...

1) Being Too Much Of A "Nice" Guy

    Have you ever noticed that the really attractive women never seem to be attracted "nice" guys?

    Of course you have.

    Just like me, I'm sure you've had attractive female friends that always seemed to date "jerks"... but for some reason they were never romantically interested in YOU.

    What's going on here?

    It's actually very simple.

    Women don't base their choices of men on how "nice" a guy is. They choose the men they do because they feel a powerful GUT LEVEL ATTRACTION for them.

    And guess what?

    Being nice doesn't make a woman FEEL that powerful ATTRACTION. And being nice doesn't make a woman choose you.

    I realize that this doesn't make a lot of logical sense, but get over it. Until you accept this FACT and begin to act on it, you'll NEVER have the success with women that you want.


2) Trying To "Convince" Her To Like You

    What do most guys do when they meet a woman that they REALLY like... but she's just not interested?

    Right! They try to "convince" the woman to feel differently.

    Well, I have news for you... YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE HOW A WOMAN "FEELS" WHEN IT COMES TO ATTRACTION!

    Never, ever, ever.

    You cannot convince a woman to feel differently about you with "logic and reasoning.

    Think about it.

    If a woman doesn't "feel it" for you, how in the world do you expect to change that by being "reasonable" with her?

    But we all do it.

    When a woman just isn't interested, we beg, plead, chase, and do our best to change her mind.

    Bad idea. Another one that will never work.


3) Looking For Her Approval Or Permission

    In our desire to please women (which we mistakenly think will make them like us), us guys are always doing things to get a woman's "approval" or "permission".

    Another HORRIBLE idea.

    Women are never attracted to the types of men who kiss up to them... EVER.

    Don't get me wrong here. You don't have to treat women BADLY for them to like you. But if you think that treating a woman well means "always getting her approval and permission for things", think again.

    You will never succeed by looking for approval.


4) Trying To Buy Affection With Food And Gifts

    How many times have you take a woman out to a nice dinner, bought her gifts and flowers, and had her REJECT you for someone who didn't treat her even HALF as well as you did?

    If you're like me, then you've had it happen a lot.

    Well guess what?

    It's only natural when this happens...

    When you do these things, you send a clear message: "I don't think you'll like me for who I am, so I'm going to try to buy your attention and affection".

    Your good intentions usually come across to women as over-compensation for insecurity, and weak attempts at manipulation.


5) Sharing How You "Feel" Too Early With Her

    Another huge and unfortunate mistake that most men make with women is sharing how they "feel" too early on.

    Attractive women are rare.

    They get a LOT of attention from men.

    Most men don't realize this, but attractive women are being approached in one way or another all the time by men.

    An attractive woman is often approached several times a day by men who are interested. This translate into dozens of times per week, and often hundreds of times per month.

    And guess what?

    Attractive women have usually dated a lot of men.

    That's right. They have EXPERIENCE.

    They know what to expect.

    And one thing that turns an attractive women off and sends her running away faster than just about anything is a guy who starts saying "You know, I really, REALLY like you" after one or two dates.

    This signals to the woman that you're just like all the other guys who fall for her too fast... and can't control themselves. Don't do it. Lean back. Relax. There's a much better way...


6) Not "Getting" How Attraction Works For Her

    Women are different from men.

    You need to accept this fact, and deal with it.

    When a man sees a beautiful, young, sexy woman, he INSTANTLY feels a sexual attraction.

    But does the same apply for women?

    Do women feel sexual attraction to men based mostly on looks? Or is something else going on?

    Well, after studying this topic for over five full years now, I can tell you that women usually have their "attraction mechanisms" triggered by things OTHER than looks.

    Have you ever noticed that you see a lot more average and unattractive men with beautiful women than the other way around?

    Think about it. Women are more attracted to certain qualities in men... and they're attracted to the way a man makes them feel than they are to looks alone.

    If you know how to use your body language and communication correctly, you can make women feel the same kind of powerful sexual attraction to you that YOU feel when you see a hot, sexy young woman.

    But it's not an accident. You have to LEARN how to do this. And ANY guy can learn how...


7) Thinking That It Takes Money And Looks

    One of the most common mistakes that guys make is giving up before they've even gotten started... because they think that attractive women are only interested in men who have looks and money... or guys who are a certain height... or guys who are a certain age.

    And sure, there are women who are only interested in these things.

    But MOST women are far more interested in a man's personality than his wallet or his looks. There are personality traits that attract women like a magnet...

    And if you learn what they are and how to use them, YOU can be one of these guys.


8) Giving Away All Of Your Power To Women

    Earlier I mentioned that it's a mistake to look to a woman for approval or permission.

    Well, another similar tactic that a lot of guys use is GIVING AWAY THEIR POWER to women. Said differently, guys try to get women to like them by doing whatever the woman wants.

    Another bad idea...

    Women are NEVER attracted to men that they can walk all over. Women aren't attracted to Wussies!


9) Not Knowing What To Do In Each Type Of Situation

    A woman always knows what you're thinking.

    I know, it might be hard to believe. But if you're out on a date with a woman, and you want to kiss her, she knows it.

    And if you don't know HOW to kiss her, and you just sit there looking at her and getting nervous, she won't help!

    And this goes for ALL aspects of women and dating...

    Approaching a woman, getting her number, asking her out, kissing her, getting physical... everything.

    If you don't know what to do in each situation, you will probably screw it up... and LOSE EVERYTHING.


10) Not Getting Help

    This is the biggest mistake of all.

   
Copyright 2003 David DeAngelo Communications Inc. All Rights Reserved. Double Your Dating and David DeAngelo are trademarks of David DeAngelo Communications Inc.


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I have to say out of all the threads I've seen on this board, This has been the most enlightening, critical thinking, perspective grounding one I've seen.

It has given me HUGE pause for re-evaluation of myself and participation in this hobby as well as how I view my interactions with those I see.

What a great thing!

thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU!

Now if TER could only have a save message to favorites list...

This recalls to mind a story about a frog and a scorpion which goes a bit like this.

A frog and a scorpion are on an island, when a huge rain ensues.  The waters continue to rise to flood the island.  The scorpion begs the frog to take it to safety off the island.  The frogs tells the scorpion that it can not, because the scorpion will sting it and then it will die.  The scorpion then tells the frog how stupid that would be for him to do that since if he did, then the scorpion would still die.  The frog thinks about this for a moment and then agrees to take the scorpion to safety.

When they get about half way across, the scorpion stings the frog.  The frog in dying shock asks the scorpion why he stung him, since now they will both die.  The scorpion replys, 'cause I'm a scorpion, stinging is what I DO!

This recalls to mind a story about a frog and a scorpion which goes a bit like this.

A frog and a scorpion are on an island, when a huge rain ensues.  The waters continue to rise to flood the island.  The scorpion begs the frog to take it to safety off the island.  The frogs tells the scorpion that it can not, because the scorpion will sting it and then it will die.  The scorpion then tells the frog how stupid that would be for him to do that since if he did, then the scorpion would still die.  The frog thinks about this for a moment and then agrees to take the scorpion to safety.

When they get about half way across, the scorpion stings the frog.  The frog in dying shock asks the scorpion why he stung him, since now they will both die.  The scorpion replys, 'cause I'm a scorpion, stinging is what I DO!

One thing that I have never been able to enjoy is repeating a number of times with the same provider.  This is cast no disrespect to anyone,  but after you have enjoyed the newness and the discovery of a "contact only" encounter, there isn't much left to discover.  There are many reasons for two people to share each others company- committment in a marriage, a long term relationship that envolves sharing more than just the physical ( with the physical being only a part of what they have together), or simply a dating relationship which involves more than just sex.  But if sex and physical encouter is all there is with a person of whom you know nothing of substance, usually, not even a real name, then after the newness is enjoyed, there really is nothing else.  I have had the honor of knowing some wonderful providers, who I would have welcomed the opportunity of spending real time with but, that is not what they are about, I honestly don't have the money for $10,000 weekins, they have a life, we each fill the role that is set in a hobbyest?provider relationship and we move on.  No harm, no foul.  If you are not honestly sharing more than a physical encounter (and that can be a wonderful thing to share), there isn't much to say after everyone have put their clothes back on.

One other thing that I can't understand is asking a provider for a discount.  This is not the place where you want to speak of "less" of anything.  Most of the experience comes down to the attitude of the provider and the degree to which she feels appreciated.  I have told providers before that 2 things that I will never ask for is "free" or "change".  I want there best and I am willing to demostrate to the lady that I am will to respect her medium of expressing it

C'mon folks, I'm starving here and should be eating dinner.  Instead I got captivated by this thread.  

I'm sure I don't have the experience in the hobby that many of you do, BUT I do think that different folks (providers and clients alike) have differing motives for being here.  I've been perfectly happy to see folks once, and have had a long relationship with a provider that started as mostly $, migrated into the grey zone, and now is 'just' (believe it or not) a friendship.  There was immediate physical chemistry (now I know on both sides), an emotional link around troubling times in life, and some level of trust.  She decided to get out of the profession, was honest about it, and I told her I'd love to see her again sometime (no sexual innuendo intended).  BTW, while she was in the profession she used to offer me a discount.  I never took her up on it; seemed unfair.

I'm sure she didn't believe me about no strings getting together, and I didn't try to call her.  She finally called me, and we now get together for dinner and to talk.  Will we end up in bed again at some point?  Who knows.  Do we enjoy getting together now?  Absolutely.  Did I really think she would ever call me (esp after 3 mos)?  No.  Was I happy when she did?  Of course.  

None of this stuff is simple, and I have a tough time thinking of ANY human contact as simply sexual or based on $.  Life is more complicated than that.  YMMV.

Cage

This is very, very true.
Sometimes, I'm not even sure what it is that gets me so 'hot' for someone. It could just be the way they stand, or flip their head, or their voice or something, but it's very true that it is seldom looks or 'type'. It irritates me when someone says, 'well, what's your type?' There IS no type. A perfect example is we all have some favorite preferences, right? So, when something quite the 'opposite' gets your heart going, you're wondering WTH? If you want to poke fun at me, I'll let you all know someone that God only knows why, gets my heart pounding, and you're going to ROTFLAO, but it's 'Spike' on Buffy the Vampire Slayer! Is that hilarious?? Yeah, baby, bite my neck..At least I'm not the only one who says so..Here's another one: Vincent Dinofrio - his lips and the way he leans down to the defendant and lowers his voice to a hot whisper makes me practically come watching the TV! Or Kevin Spacey..these are not necessarily handsome guys!
But, being a Provider is the best - imagine having the epitome of a Blind Date! I mean meeting someone 'blindly' and then getting intimate with them shortly thereafter! What a turn on! What a fun way to discover their 'attractiveness'!
But, you're absolutely right, Seeker, 'doing' things don't cut it - it's 'being' that does. Be relaxed, and be confident (not cocky) and be able to go with the flow, and be content with whatever happens..

Thanks.

Sedona

I'm humbled by the number of responses to my questions.
I have read them all and taken jewels from many.
  None of us have all the answers & least of all me. We should all thank each other for the wealth of information exchanged here and be thankful for this forum to share said information.

  Humbly,

   CTToI

To err is human..

Regardless of whether you felt 'loved' (or not) by Someone, you are loved (here) by many...