Good morning, All!

I have a question and I'm hoping some of you lawyerly types can help me.

A guy has emailed me asking to meet.  He has provided his name, his work number, and a brief work history.  However, he's never seen a provider before, so he can't provide references.  I never see anybody without a reference; I have way, way too much to lose. Yet, this guy seems legit and also seems very nice.  

This would be a mood killer, but I'm wondering if it might be a way around the problem:  Would it stand up in court if I had him sign a statement stating that he was "paying for my time, only.  This is not a solication... yada, yada"?  What about tape recording a statement?

I sure would appreciate any advice on this one.

Thanks!

Love,
Anne

[email protected]

If your concern is that he could be LE, making him sign a statement is completely ineffective.  There was a recent post about this same topic a few weeks ago in the legal board.  Bottom line is that you can't avoid criminal charges by contracting against them.  If he is undercover LE, he'll gladly sign it, and if he can, based on LE's usual factors for arresting someone, then he'll arrest you.  Think about it this way...a guy wants to die, and he asks you to do it.  You have him sign a similar disclaimer.  You'd still get charged with murder.  Same situation.

I was involved in a long lengthy legal battle here in the Southeast. It proved for myself and dozens of other young ladies that references really don't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of law. If law enforcement wants to make life difficult for you, they are going to provide references, give work numbers, and do anything else you ask.

I'm not the legal eagle you asked for, but I do read the Legal Corner section of this site!

The basic answer is that you can't hide behind any agreement regarding criminal activity. Just because you say it isn't criminal does not mean it's not criminal. That's my interpretation of what I've read in the Legal Corner.

I am an attorney and PacketInspector is correct, signing the statement would be of no help if he is LE. Cynically, I would say a tape might "disappear" before you got downtown if it was a bust.  Trust your gut.

YOU'VE got too much to lose?! Think of the poor guy who just gave you his life's history! Sometimes, you providers really go a bit overboard on this security stuff. Personally, I don't want my life story in someone's database. (You tell us you delete it, but how do we REALLY KNOW?) I've been stood up by providers (one twice!), cashed & dashed, given a bad reference because I decided not to see her for four months (I like variety) and some even just plain refuse to give references or never answer requests for them. Maybe the guy has never seen anyone, everyone's gotta start somewhere. Or maybe he just had experiences like me and prefers not to make a big deal out of it. My post may sound mean, but I am a nice guy and just want to have a good time without the strings and value my privacy as much as a provider if not more. If you as a provider, or client feel uncomfortable with the scenario, then move on to someone else. There are plenty out there. As you can see from my past experiences, I have..........

I have given way too much info to providers to prove myself a  legitimate  "hobbyist". After a while the mood is killed and you move on to another provider who won't ask for your mother's maiden name.  This hobby with me is spontaneous and a quick "meeting of minds" seals the deal.  The long drawn out requests for additional info on me go unanswered.  I am a long time hobbyist and have long term relations with providers who all know me as a first class guy. Why should I ruin my relationships with my ATFs by annoucing to them that I am seeking new providers who may turn out to be one time ROBs or flakes?  I know you are concerned about you security and so am I about my privacy. Want to run this biz like a legitimate one? Give me you SS# and I will give you a Form 1099 so you can legally report your fee as taxable income to the IRS.

If the person's signs the contract (civil matter) and an illegal act in the eyes of the criminal court is commited it voids the contract. A criminal act will always void a civil contract.

Have him use a service like www.roomservice2000.com or www.date-check.com.

we all enter into this hobby with are eyes wide open. I have been burned by psycho providers who have used my references to extort $$$ from me and make my life miserable if I did pay up to their demands.  No longer, if a provider wants MY BUSINESS and MY $$$, she has to agree to MY TERMS of privacy.  Don't like the terms?  I will find someone who does. Stressed out by the security risks of the business YOU CHOOSE? Find a new career or go work for an escort service that will provide you with the screening and security which YOU currently do not want to pay for.

I have not yet been to a provider, but I personally would not be offended at being scrutinized a bit (obviously I would not give out my SSN, or mothers maiden name etc).  I'm not sure what would keep you out of trouble if he was LE, but if you formally told him that you do not ask for financial compensation in exchange for sex, and that (as a matter of fact) for the first meeting, please don't bring any money, as you are simply interested in getting to know him (I'm sure he can read between the lines) ... then, during the meeting, if he puts out, I would assume he's not LE.  If it does go as far as FS, then bring up the fee later if necessary.  If not, consider it an investment in your future.  I mean, if you are that nervous about it, is a few hundred bucks worth your freedom?  If so, then maybe risking the loss of one fee in exchange for knowing who they REALLY are ... might be worth it.  I dunno, but it seems the safest route to me.  If I understand the law correctly, having consentual sex with someone for free is not illlegal.  And if he keeps trying to get you to talk about money, then kick his ass out, or run like the wind without saying a damn word!  You gotta stand up for yourself, and don't accept any crap from anyone.

My 2 cents

How about the following approach:

The hobbyist, puts his money on somewhere visible, and states:

"This is for you no matter what.  You can walk away with it right now, and that is fine with me.  So, the $$$ is not for anything illegal or ill advised, and stressing you do not want to engage in something illegal."

Whatever happens beyond this point, is not money for sex.  I am not an attorney, but this closes all the loopholes.  Furthermore, it is truly not sex for money exchange.

that would be a verbal contract with money changing hands...
However, money aka currency being exchanged is a utility whereby a "transaction" for services and or products are bought/sold.
Same thing as before- a civil contract can be voided if a crime takes place in the eyes of the criminal courts.
Now lets turn this around.....
If the lady were to exchange the money for lets say a "custom" "handmade" gift or trinket and things were to transpire after that.... I dont know how the courts would view the transaction. Since the buyer and seller were in agreement and a product was transferred, the events following the transaction might be deemed excluded from the the monetary exchange. Interesting theory but dont know how well it would hold up in court.

First session free to prove you're not LE!  Should be a pretty fast bandwagon for the guys.  How about it, Ladies?

I'm still not a lawyer, but it's my understanding that you can be arrested.

Even if you avoid talking about sex.

Even if you avoid talking about money.

You can be arrested simply because the cops want to! Your arrest is unlikely to lead to a conviction, perhaps it will even be voided several hours later. But if you think that coded messages or reading between the lines prevents your arrest, think again.

You don't have a presumption of innocence with the cops. As far as I know, that's true only in the movies. And then only if it makes for a plot complication. 8-)

Remember: If you buy a bag of sugar, thinking it's heroin, you go to jail. And it's not illegal to buy a bag of sugar!  Just because you didn't do anything illegal doesn't mean you won't get arrested.

The Ladies are trying to avoid the creepos and LE... and there are way more creepos than LE. The Hobbiest is trying to avoid creepos and LE and there are more LE than creepos.

--another in the continuing series of humble opinions.

You play the game long enough sugar, you're gonna lose.  LE dudes do whatever the hell they want.  Consider what kind of small repressed minds want to bust providers anyway.  Some of these guys may not even care about the law.  If they're having a slow day, they'll haul your butt downtown just for fun and all your little precautions won't protect you, at least from being hassled.  Accept that and calm the f*** down.  All these little things providers do to try to protect themselves (with the exception of avoiding the "sex for money" talk which can be recorded and used as evidence) is pointless.  I swear, sometimes it feels like I'm in some stupid spy movie!  I refuse to play the reference game but if you require this of the guy who's never seen a provider before, why not get him to see someone else you know (and who isn't paranoid) first.

I understand your need for caution and if your policy has been; no reference, no appointment, then I don't think you should see him.  Your peace of mind is important too.

-- Modified on 4/6/2003 9:49:52 PM

I'm just a commercial lawyer, and don't know spit about criminal law except what happens when I drive way too fast, but the commercial law slant on that one is - if I sell someone an item worth about $200 for $200 and then we screw each other's brains out, that's probably not prostitution.  If I sell someone an item worth about $20 for $200 and then we do the same, that makes a pretty clear case that I just paid $180 for sex.

That's what commercial law tells me, anyway, and I bet that's what the criminal guys will say, too.

If you have information about how someone could "fake" a reference... at least, if you check with the lady in question.... please do share, I'm sure I and many ladies would appreciate the information. The only way I can think of what you are saying to happen, is for the lady used as a reference to have been busted and forced to give info or references for other ladies.

Of course, in that situation I also feel like the lady turning in her peers on a silver platter, must not know the law or have spoken with a lawyer.

Hugs*
Nicole

WTF is this about an agency providing the "screening and security YOU currently do not want to pay for"...???

Please tell me how being screened by an agency is any safer, easier, or more private for you, than being screened by an independant lady? Maybe because often times, agencies who are exploiting ladies could give a rats ass about their safety and don't care if you come in and beat a lady up, so they don't bother to ask? And this is the screening I should be... *PAYING* for???

Gosh I get tired of dealing with cynical people. I am sorry you and the gent above have had negative experiences with some unscrupulous ladies.  But I certainly don't think you need to spew such vitriolic nonsense to escorts as a group. The problem with generalizations is that they are soooooo, darned, GENERAL!  

Sincerely,
Nicole

I have to appreciate the honest naivete that I see coming thru in Mr. Mike's post... at least, I hope it's honest naivete!!!! But holy moly... I don't think that idea is going to catch on fast. And, incidentally, it wouldn't prove a darned thing.

I also think people tend to forget on occasion that we also screen to weed out PSYCHOS who could cause us harm..... NOT just fear over  boys in blue.

Sincerely,
Nicole

I remember I had the same problem at the beginning of my "carrer" as hobbyst. This one provider refused to see me unless I had references from other providers, and at that time I had none. So what I did was to see a couple of providers who did not ask for references, and after that I was finally able to see the first provider. Tell him to see other providers first, that will give you a peace of mind.

interesting...but i was that guy a few months ago..i checked her reviews here and called to make an appt...she was very hesitant...i don't blame her...but i actually have as much to loose too..she passed...

i have since had my "first"...so i guess that i now have my reference...i will call her again...hmmm..maybe tomorrow....

so if he really wants you...tell him to get a provider or two under his belt...tell him your reasons...if he is really a nice guy..he will understand...if not..oh well...you are out a few bucks...the sun will still rise and set and the earth will still go around...

I'm in the same situation as the gentleman you declined to meet with, yet I understand your reason for doing so.  I would love to become a regular hobbyist, as I am financially able, and emotionally willing.  I've been browsing and researching for several weeks, even months, but I've not met my first provider yet.  I've contacted, or attempted to contact a handful and every time I have been respectful in every way (like I said, I've been doing my homework on the do's and dont's).  I have also mentioned that I am a first-timer.  I have either gotten no reply or a polite "no thank you".  I don't want to start my hobbying with a "come one come all" type just to get a reference who might not even be considered reliable enough to remember me.  It's getting frustrating.

I can now see some obvious problems to this.  Oh well ... I don't know what the solution is.  Back in High School (when Aids was just becoming an epidemic), they told us that abstinence was a guarenteed way to not get into trouble.  Saddly, I think this is the case here as well.

Personally, I think it should be made legal, with some sort of minor regulation to ensure the safety of everyone who partakes.  But then, the government would probably tax the hell out of it ... sigh ... what's a human to do?