Clinically, this process is called
dissociation - the same psychological process which
permits you to survive if you're being tortured.


The person who is for sale, is actually a pretend self.
But the problem is, over time, it becomes more and more
difficult to switch back to the real self. The emotionally
distanced self takes over more and more of the
private self.


In addition to shutting down emotionally, prostitutes
must shut down sexually. Then when they later want
to be sexually involved with someone they care about,
it is usually impossible to get turned on."

The quote above is from a psychologist named Melissa Farley.  Is there any truth to this?  Most providers deny that anything of the sort is happening.  Maybe it's true for some, but not for others.  Just dunno.

be a case of cognitive dissonance?

I can only speak from personal experience, but having a lovely escort with her tongue down my throat, my rocket in her socket, and the heat between us rapidly approaching that required for fusion to occurr, I must categorically reject your assumption. But hey, that's just me. MfSD.

This is similar to an issue I've addressed to some providers.  

I've read that the john's school in San Francisco has former hookers berate the johns for a few hours.  They base this on the assumption that the women involved are victims of societal happenstance and that the johns and taking advantage of this.  They say that all prostitutes hate the johns.

I've had such nice times with some ladies frome the netscort world and felt that they were really enjoying what they were doing that I asked, flat out, if they hated thier clients.  They were rather taken aback by the question and assured me that they liked their work over all and most of the guys.

Still others have told me that, infact, they become rather addicted to seeing the guys and need the sex.  That when situation like having to go visit relatives etc. arrise they really miss the business.

Most of the women in those studies are heavy drug-addicts, providers that struggled for a living in their 40s or under-aged runaways.  They are often abused by their clients or pimps and have to develop a mechanism to protect themselves emotionally.

Most of the providers we encountered are so-called “high class call girls”, terms that were used in the 80s and 90s.  They are usually beautiful ladies that are worshipped by men throughout their lives.  Often the reasons for them to be in the provider business are because of the needs to maintain their high flying life styles, as a way to save for a down payment for a house, or support themselves through colleges.  There is also the case of being a single mom.

In any case, because of the higher fee and the more upscale clientele they have, providers at this level often don’t have a problem with low self worth.  They usually have the confidence to stand up to any of their clients which in turn allows the provider to be able to enjoy themselves sexually when they met a client they liked.  There are also lots of charming, handsome, successful and well-traveled gentlemen active at this level. (Too bad I am not one of them )  It does not surprise me to hear that a provider genuinely enjoyed the company of a client.

I have heard anecdotes to support all these from 2 of my closest friends who are retired escorts.  Both of them have told me that they had met some amazing people and had broadened their views through their escort experiences.  Just like some of us that are fortunate enough to meet some wonderful ladies through this hobby.

i have a ph.d. in psychology from an ivy league university and wide clinical and research experience, so i'm happy to contribute to this oh so fun topic.

if you start with a moral judgment (and feminism is a system of moral judgments about gender and power), and then crank up the scientific apparatus, you can almost always make the science condemn the sin. but pick any social category you want, sinner or saint, and the people in it will tell many different stories.

i like some of farley's ideas, but my impatience with her is that she lumps everyone into the same moral interpretation. yes, some streetwalkers or tony escorts are abused and captive of circumstances, but most are not. yes, some are predatory and abusive to their clients (ha ha, men are such suckers, men are so stupid), but most are not. the easy and simple rule with categorical generalizations: ignore them.

yes, the girls who tout blowjobs on the streets of the tenderloin are pretty much at the bottom of the social ladder, and there's a fair case to make that they are exploited. they are also the women on whom farley bases all her claims. but there are also many escorts with college degrees or perfectly normal day jobs, who could easily earn a living without tricking. in their case it is stupid to talk about lack of choice, and these are the women farley ignores.

the problem with farley is that she doesn't recognize the situational interpretation of a behavior such as sex for money. a chef can cook for money at a tony restaurant, or a filippina can be smuggled into the usa to cook for pennies and live in a locked compound. cooking for money isn't in itself good or bad; it depends on the circumstances. in farley's world, all sex for money is exactly the same.

just personal experience, but i'd guess around 15% of fs escorts are psychologically damaged and sad to be with, and about 30% are actually thriving in their work. the other 50% or so are just doing their job, day in and day out, just like most people in most other jobs. and like most people in most jobs, they dream of doing something else someday.

dissociation is an extreme psychological response, and i have never encountered it in any of the women i've met. but then, if a woman comes across in the screening call like a robot or a gluesniffer, or has bad reviews on ter, i don't follow through with her, so i don't meet the worst of the lot.

see the link for a counterpoint.

Most curious as to your insights on this topic. I would comment myself, but I liked drollere's post and the Feminzai aspect of Farley's essay gets me too easily on tilt.

THANK GOODNESS!!!  hee hee

Melissa Farley's stated goal is "to see the institution of prostitution ended."  She doesn't speak for me, and I doubt she speaks for most of the providers I see posting here, who seem to be healthy, prosperous, and (dare I say it?) happy.

An interview of Ms. Farley:  http://www.mergemag.org/1998/farley.html

I can't speak for every escort, but the ones I have seen appear to enjoy what they are doing. Sometimes it is easy to spot someone who is not and usually she doesn't last long. I have had some tell me that they got into it for the money, but found out that they enjoyed it. Most of the escorts I have seen have been open to talk of their private lives (family, plans, hopes). I even had a few let the session go way past the schedule time just to talk and relax. I had pointed out that the time was up, but they said that this was their time so don't worry. One even showed me her photos from a recent trip that she enjoyed.

I guess some of the article is true if the escort only experiences men who make her feel that she is only being used for their enjoyment, being treated as a thing for pleasure and
not as a person. I like to make sure that she knows that I am interested in her more than a way to get off. I guess if you want a gfe, a guy better be ready to give a bfe (yes I know those terms are different for everyone.). Finally, treat the woman with respect, talk to her, and be open to doing something for her.

although what Farley says is undoubtably true about a large percentage of street walkers and other "low end" prostitutes, it is not true about many of the providers who are part of the "high end" TER world.  The key is that they could earn a living doing something else, but choose to do this.  I assume that they would have the wisdom to switch to that "sonething else" if they realized that they were suffering psychological damage from being a provider, even if the "something else" paid less.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself and no one else.  Please don't flame me for telling my truth, even though it's being gutless to not post with my pro name.  You asked for honesty right?

Of course no lady would post honestly regarding their feelings of the men who pay them to work. C'mon, that would be professional suicide.

Just last night I talked to a hobbyist that was put back by a very well known lady telling him she rarely O's with her clients. I'd love to see any of you gent's take this career on and see the equivalent in the opposite gender and maintain an erection 10-15 times a week. Thank God most of us don't have dicks or you'd really know what we're feeling LOL      

I'd say it's rare to find a lady who actually wants to have sex for money.  Maybe some get into it to fulfill their own fantasies including myself.  After a few months, the sex craved slut or goddess fantasy is gone.  After the initial cloud 9, we all are pretty much here for what you offer us, money.

Most that I've met fell into it and once you're in, it's difficult to find another career that will be a viable replacement.  If you're good enough, you can act your way through all this.  The ones that can't act, typically get below average ratings in performance and/or those that won't allow you to put her physical safety at risk.  Doesn't the fact that you have to pay to be with her say it all?  There are those clients that I'd see for free, but rare.  At least for me.

The new guys and some others come into this full of fantasies that no mortal provider can live up to.  Reviews reflect these types.  Go read and you'll start to see what I'm talking about.  I wish there was a red * next to every new reviewers name to show this.  They post a review in the hopes to secretly becoming one of the guys (community) including in this review, every minor flaw they ran into.  This is human nature AND it hurts our business AND feelings.  No psychologist has to tell me that a fantasy rarely lives up to reality.  This is why reviews are disliked by most ladies.  We need the reviews for exposure/marketing, but c'mon who in their right mind would want to be reviewed, but the very few perfect providers who score 10's on both looks and performance.  In fact, to score a 10 in performance, you have to provide everything right?  One lady who got a 10 in performance was given a 10 because she provided BBFS.  Flame me if you want, but I know and was told this by the reviewer himself.  That's way too REAL for me!  Enough said on Russian roulette.

Re fantasy again: Go read the reviews from newbies and tell me fantasy didn't play a hand in most newbies reviews reflecting their skewed view of the hobby.  The clues are there.  Her _____ skills were the best I've ever had, but there's better.  He's comparing his date to the XXX video star that took hours to shoot with numerous retakes, perfect angles and globs of makeup with thousands of dollars spent to achieve what is perceived as the perfect bod and performance. LOL

With this in mind, no wonder you see so many reviews as such.  

It would be nice if the newbie section discussed this.  VERY few providers are that great looking compared to Playboy and what most men have in their silly lil heads when they greet their above average yet not perfect date for the evening.  I'm not speaking of the 10% out there that are knockouts by the way.  I'm speaking of the other 90%.

OK now let's speak of the 10% flawless ladies out there.  They even more than the average ladies could get a lot better than what they're offered to see for $$$$.  No wonder it's rare to find a gorgeous lady who can act well enough to give you the perception that you truly could date her for free.

This again comes through in the reviews of those ladies that are very good looking yet get so-so performance stat's.

There are two types of hobbyists.  Those that want performance and those that want looks.  Yes, you want both, but most have a preference.  Don't see a 7 in looks with the expectation of a 10, then tell everyone she wasn't what you expected. Also, don't see a 10 in looks expecting her to suddenly change her MOA and give you a 10 in performance as well.  sheesh.  Be educated and find the lady who suits your tastes and don't expect everything unless you care to pay top dollar.  If you choose the wrong lady, it's your fault, not hers.  

Another rant....There are quite a few that truly dislike giving money for what they wish was free.  Let's hear it from the boys regarding this?  Ego's ego's ego's.  These same guys that see a provider for $$ or $$$ ... would never admit the issue of ego regarding paying for the companionship of a lady and how that may taint their views on the hobby.  Go read the reviews, you can nail those jerks square in their verbiage. They continually ask providers for "special deals" and try to stay longer than their wallet will allow.  If a lady doesn't comply, she's a bitch and in it for just the money.  

Yes, there are men that are fun in this hobby.  Yes, there are those occasional O's.  Yes, it's great money.  But, please don't assume most of the ladies you're seeing aren't just pretending they want to ravish you for your looks and personalty.  It's all about that envelope on the desk.  

If you want to really know what it's like to be us.  Go send your S.O. out for a few months.

Whenever a lady retires out of the business I rejoice.  She can now start mending the psychological hurt that reviews and selling their body's for money has done to her.  

If you choose to flame me for this statement, I'd say you need to separate yourself from this hobby for a while.

Its interesting to read all the different responses. Especially, from the men. Ok, I'll be honest and if its career suicide, so be it:

I started in this business as an act of desparation. I was in great need of serious cash flow at almost a moments notice. The reasons are private and I'll keep it that way. Lets just say that it was necessary to provide monetary assistance to an extremely important entity in my life.

Escorting definetely came thru for me on the financial end of it. Then after a few dates and a lil spiritual soul searching, I was in full swing. I became addicted to the $$ and the rush of meeting so many different people. I have met some pretty scary characters and some physically repelling ones. I have also met some of the most awesome, accomplished, and sincere men that are in existence! Thankfully the later version is more common.

I don't always enjoy my job. (Yes, I consider it a job) But, I don't always despise it either. It really depends on the client and what he brings to the table. And, what kind of mood I'm in or if I would rather be doing something or someone else at that time.

What bothers me the most? Hmmmmmm, probably when I look in my appointment book(s) and realize how many men I have actually had sex with! (honesty still the best policy?) Its mind-boggling! That can make me feel like the lil slut that I am. It also really bothers me when I have a client that treats me like a whore. But, can you blame him? That is, in fact, what we are. Not that its a bad thing to me. But, society dictates our moral standard. Society and Anita Bryant.....*wink*

I do have a college degree and I am a confident person. I like to think that I respect myself. But, I've been told different by many friends and family members. I have learned many interesting things from many interesting people. Thats priceless. My male friends are always telling me how jealous they are. How I get to have sex with whoever I want and get paid for it too! They all tell me that if they were a women they would be such sluts and love every minute of it....chyeah right.

Additionally, (not that I'm looking) what kind of man would consider taking a prostitute seriously? Take one on a real date? Invite her to his parents for Xmas dinner? Or ask her if she wanted a key to his apartment? In that aspect, I feel sub-human. But, it goes with the territory I guess.

Last point, I read that the majority of "adult enetertainers" were sexually abused as children. Can I see a raise of hands?
I suspect that I'm just one of many, many girls whom this applies to at some level. I just don't see the connection to prositution. Maybe my sub-concious does. Or maybe my sub-human does...(tee hee)


Ok, girls if I don't ever get another call, just remember I did it for....*cough*....*choke*.....*choke*....the team!

Thanks for the post it was a great topic!
Hey, Lets make it a GREAT day!

xoxoxoxoxo
Carol

anonywishes, thanks for posting that. now my two cents. and before you read on, please take the trouble to read my reviews, or other posts here, so you know my outlook.

i have to ask: how many jobs did you have (and for how long) *before* you got into the business? a lot of what you say about the daily grind applies to any job. and i think you'll find it's true that the if-you-only-knew-the-reality feeling applies especially to jobs in the fantasy stratosphere of society -- acting, modeling, politics, academia, medicine, whatever. my sister is a doc, and she talks about the bureaucratic bullshit in the same way you talk about your clients.

yes, you get clients that come at you inside a fantasy cloud, but that is true also of police officers, or doctors, or politicians, you name it. humans are just not that clever about true and false. the fact that it is painfully more obvious in the sex trade does not mean it is absent anywhere else.

there are also guys who seek escorts in a moral fantasy, bad girl bad boy, and there is a lot of moral sewage around being an escort (farley's comments are moral sewage). but what you're responding to is how truly fucked up all moral judgments are, how the judgment has nothing to do with you as a person and only makes you lonely.

it's true, some men want xxx-treme performance (bare back whatever, fake orgasms, etc.), or looks (big tits, flashy legs, etc.). but please look at my reviews of chandra, hayley or noelle. i feel genuinely disappointed when a woman has scarred herself in any way, i wish she hadn't. what a lot of older men want -- no, what *i* want -- is to *feel touched*. for me that means playfulness, warmth and grace in the moment, and the woman's ability to discover what turns me on and turn it loose. for me, it is painful to be with a woman who is playing out a robot program or is obviously uncomfortable.

of course it is partly about the money. the kind service i get in a restaurant is about the money. the care i get from a doctor is about the money. take the money out of it and nobody is going to want to finger my prostate, stir my piss, stitch my hernia, clear my garbage or fill my damn glass with water.

I'm sure there are all kinds out there. But, it has been my experience that if you stick to providers that get good reviews you find women that truly enjoy what they do. Or else they belong in Hollywood! But, it you are a repeat customer it is pretty easy to see if they really enjoy your company. I belive that some providers truly need a lot of sexual stimulation and if so why not make some money at what you enjoy. Also, some just seem to enjoy making a man feel good. What do the providers have to say about this?

A friend of mine told me about this topic and allowed me a chance to use his account to respond. For the record, I am a former escort. I never worked on the street, have never been a drug addict. Was not abused as a child. Yes I have inhaled but you can count the times on one hand. I do enjoy a glass of wine but am not an alcoholic.

The only reason why I mention these things is to point out that I did not get into the business due to any dependency or emotional duress. At the time I did get into the business it was a gradual transition. I was a single mom due to a divorce but I had a fairly good career in insurance. One of the doctors I dealt with loved my voice and after a while offered me money for phone sex. (In fact it was more than I was charging per hour as an escort - go figure). Instead of being shocked or turned off, I was excited about it and did it. What an easy way to make money I thought. Then he told me about some of his friends who would be willing to do the same, and thus I gave up my 9 - 5 to do phone sex for a while.

As could be expected, some of the doctors wanted to meet the voice on the phone, and since the phone sex stuff was slowing down I figured why not try it. It was more fantasy than anything else. At first the experience was great but like someone pointed out, the further you get into it, the harder it is to get out.

After a while I got use to the cash flow and built a lifestyle around it. What I had to sacrifice was myself. Being that guys have a different outlook on sex an intimacy, its difficult at best for any man to tell me he understands what an escort goes through. They figure we are getting paid to have sex, which many guys would do free. The problem is you have very little choice with whom you see. 85% to 95% of the guys I saw, I would not give the time of day to. That's not to say that I'm a prude but, I'm a black woman and the majority of my clients were white. Some of the things that would come out of their mouths would just appall me. I know this is not the topic of this thread but I will say that it amazed me the ignorance that so called educated white males had when it came to dealing with black people. And then after hearing their views, I was expected to give myself over to this guy. To me, I never downed a guy for his appearance, except if he had bad hygiene.

I know this next statement is going to crush some egos out there but here it goes. Providers talk and exchange notes etc. The majority of the time a guy thinks the lady he is with has achieved an orgasm, she hasn't. Women are wired to respond more to the mental aspect of sex. It’s hard for us to allow a stranger (yes even if you think you are a regular client, you are still a stranger), to get us to that point. We enjoy your money, your company is secondary. I know it means so much to you guys and that is why so many of you DATY. Most guys never ask themselves that how come the lady seems to get to the O and the entire session in exactly 1 hour. This is about the art of hustling and guys are so easy. I wont say some guys can't hit homeruns, and I've met some great lover's in my life, but NO lady over time would classify escorting as a healthy sexual outlet. If a guy looks at it realistically and thinks this is not the case then he is fooling himself.

I'm not here to say anyone should feel sorry for me or that I'm on a soapbox talking down on those still in the hobby. I'm just sharing my experience. It is a secret life you have to lead because regardless of your views, it’s still illegal. Most guys when they go to their 9 to 5 do not have to worry about being arrested and having your freedom taken away and your life messed up forever. Guys complain about screening yet the lady is the one who is persecuted by society and take the majority of the risk. With that pressure, and then seeing a new client, do you honestly think we are enjoying the act at the same level of a guy? We are just happy when its over, gotten paid, and hopefully did not have to go through any drama.

Many guys have a tendency to tell us about things and problems they wont even tell their wives. Hell half of their complaints are centered on their domestic life or job. Even though many escorts are educated, we are not psychologists. Many of us cannot deal with hearing every problem a guy has and then he expects us to be his fantasy. That takes a toll as well.

The worst is dealing with clients who think this is more than it is. A guy is paying me for my time and somewhere along the line he thinks I'm his girl friend? Or need him of all people, to save me? Come back to the original reason why the meeting is taking place. Most providers, care about you guys for as long as you've paid us to. Granted I did take an interest or liking to some of the guys but as soon as their session was over they were an after thought. For guys who may be getting too caught up, here is some female insight; no woman wants a man to be her MAN if she knows he has to pay for it, regardless of the reason.

To work as a prostitute do you have to shut down emotionally? Absolutely! I was in it for about 6 years. Webpage, touring, the whole deal. When I left I was "on top of my game". I had just raised my rate to $$$$$$ and the volume of requests were not slowing down. My girl friend thought I was a fool to leave when I did. My answer to her was there would never be a good time to get out. Unlike a lot of lady's I was fortunate to have put some money away and was able to transition into another career without too much being made of the lapse in time on my resume. Many ladies’ do not and stay in this longer than they should for economic reasons. The hardest thing to get use to was the drop in cash flow. To this day I still have an extremely hard time trusting anybody. I know the true nature of most men and it will be difficult at best to allow myself to get close to anyone new. This is the scar many lady's carry after being in this. My confidence at times is very low for allowing myself to be used in the ways that I was or staying in as I did.

Many lady's fool themselves into thinking clients are friends. I've known some lady's who were arrested or went through some other hardships and these so called friends were no where to be found. I understand a few of the lady's from the TBD bust are still in jail. Yeah, sure you are friends with the ladies. One lady I know, who had a degree in Computer Science and was a damn good web and graphical designer told me she wanted to get out. Many of her clients were in the IT industry. Don't you know not one offered her any help or advice. She was not looking for employment in their companies, just some industry advice as to how to go about getting a foot in the door. Not one was supportivr. One in fact was pissed when she told him she was not going to see ANYONE on the side regardless on how long of a client he was. The guys felt abandoned and thus would not help her move on. Now you tell me if that doesn't cause a lady to have some issues. We are great when we are doing you, but heaven forbid we stop, and then we become public enemy.



-- Modified on 7/24/2002 12:51:09 PM

-- Modified on 7/24/2002 1:18:20 PM

The history of science is full of examples of conclusions reached, before the thinking and analysis even began.

This particular example belongs with the Flat Earth Theory or Biblical Creationism.

Numerous professionals give of their bodies and minds. Many lawyers give generously of their a**holes. LOL

The attitude toward this giving, and compensation for it, are very much culturally determined. Ours is not a culture of great thinkers, as illustrated by the sheer volume of churches across the land, and libraries closed on Sundays.
Here in DC the Library of Congress shuts down daily at 5 pm, and altogether on Sundays. Some have suggested that the hallways be used for bowling, and the vast auditoria for monster truck displays.

This thread has some good thinking in it, which is not something Ms Melissa Farley does very well at all.

-- Modified on 7/24/2002 4:52:51 PM

With all sincerity, thank you very, very much for your honesty....

The story you told pretty much match up with the "live" story I have heard directly from ASPs, both dancers and escorts.

Do I believe that there are some ASPs who TRULY enjoy their work, and would do it independent of the circumstances that may have brought them to it? Actually, after reading some of the posts her over time, yes. I have come to believe there is some percentage of women out there that sat down one day and said "hmmm...you know, I REALLY like getting laid. And I REALLY like meeting men...I just like meeting them (this one I really can related to - it isn't sex that is the root of my fidelity problems, it is the 'buzz' of meeting a new and interesting woman)...and I REALLY like money. How can I combine these?" Luscious Laurel and Nicole / Sexy Curves have struck me as being in this vein...women who are happy with themselves, happy with their bodies, happy with what they do. Women who'd probably have VERY healthy (if you know what I mean) sex lives even if they weren't ASPs, and be perfectly ok with it - because it was what they wanted.

I've also been having some ongoing off the board dialogue with a couple of other regular posters who I'd also put in this category...women with large appetites for both sex and life, so, hey, this works for them.

On the other hand, just about every ASP (again, dancers and escorts) I have met, or dated or conversed at length with in private pretty much sums up there experience as 1) I got into it because I needed the money 2) I can't get out of it because I'm addicted to the money 3) I sure wouldn't want my daughter doing this.

Does this mean they are exploited? I don't think so, but I am sure lots of people can make rational arguments otherwise.

Does this mean I am advocating change? Nope...I am not saying that either. The system, as it were, seems to work well for those who manage it well...who don't (here he goes again) lose perspective. For guys who don't forget that the ladies are doing it for the money...for ladies who don't forget they had originally planned to do this only to accomplish a specific goal, and then they were going to go back to a life as a civilian.

It just seems that perspective gets lost so often on both sides of the fence...

"The key is that they could earn a living doing something else, but choose to do this."

I am not so sure about this. Yes, posted on many of the post here, some percentage of ladies (at least some percentage here in our little circle) are clearly educated, intelligent women. Could they translate that education and intelligence into something that paid as well? That could be debated...being handy with the written word, or being well read is unfortuately not necessarily a highly in demand and thus highly paid career skill. The world is full of people with Masters in Philosphy or hstory making less than 50K a year.

My real point however is that the majority (not all) of the ASPs *I* have come to know well enough to know probably don't posess any real career skills. They really couldn't find any other work that could possibly sustain a middle class (30K+ ?) lifestyle. Most of them told me they tried...that is how they ended up as ASPs. The secretary that got laid off, and finds it much tougher to get wor in a depresses economy. The former computer technician who lost her job because she had a little bout with depression, and now finds her modest skills both out of date and lacking in depth. The high school educated woman who actually had held a number of pretty decent jobs, but was always one layoff away from disaster, and when it happened, found that the education she never bothered to pursue was now what she needed. I've heard all these stories and more first hand.

Wat does this mean? Nothing in particular...I am just saying that their is a bit of myth and a bit of truth to BOTH sides of this story...both the "explotited" sex worker (not every ASP is a "streetwalker") and the "happy-go-lucky-flush-with-cash-high-end-call-girl" (not ever escort has a six figure income, and jets around the country).

And I thank you for your honesty as well....

Again, the story you tell matches very well with my understanding from ASPs, versus what you often read here and other places - the "myths" of the hooby.

Your thoughts regarding your cleints was especially insightful, and also matches what I have been told, and what I have (perhaps foolishly) tried to get guy here to understand.

"The problem is you have very little choice with whom you see. 85% to 95% of the guys I saw, I would not give the time of day to."

While that percentage sounds high to me (man, you must be picky!!) the general sentiment it one of the things I have said all along.

"We enjoy your money, your company is secondary."

Again, something I have always known. Sure, it might vary from encounter to encounter, and their might even be exceptions (I have a quite nice online "friendship" with an escort I have seen but once...and it was initiated by her; also I have friendships in the past with ASPs) but for the most part, this is the reality guys need to understand. It isn't right or wrong, its just real.

"This is about the art of hustling and guys are so easy."

This is why I repeatly advocate keeping perspective...

"Most providers, care about you guys for as long as you've paid us to. Granted I did take an interest or liking to some of the guys but as soon as their session was over they were an after thought. For guys who may be getting too caught up, here is some female insight; no woman wants a man to be her MAN if she knows he has to pay for it, regardless of the reason."

Which is why the "extended dinner date" and "overnight" is such an illusion in my eyes. It is just a lot of money to extend the fantasy, an attempt to make things something other than what they are, or ever will be. If someone REALLY enojoys your company, why would they make you pay for it?

Every woman I have known outside the hobby who said they enjoyed me seemed to be just fine with knowing I would take of the arrangements for whatever we chose to do. I know it is how these ladies make a living but COME ON...do you think she would make $2000 / $3000 in 24 hours if she WEREN'T getting it from you? She's see a couple clients one day, see a couple the next day, if both days were good ones. Maybe $1000..maybe $1500. It cost so much because that is what she chose to charge to PRETEND she is happy to be with you for an extended period of time, versus knowing your ass is leaving in an hour or two. If she were REALLY enjoying your company, she would do so without charge, after she handled her baseline "expenses" (a girl does have to get paid). Twice I've spent several hours with providers before and after the agreed to session smply because they liked me enough to hang out with me. I didn't pay for this time, I simply paid for the session. I treated them like ladies, took them to nice establishments, lavished them with attention. I enjoyed myself, and presumably they did as well. I just didn't pay for the privilege.

The two "real deal" posts in this thread have been very informative. I hope at least some of the hobbyist will benefit...

-- Modified on 7/25/2002 1:39:54 PM

"i have to ask: how many jobs did you have (and for how long) *before* you got into the business?"

I have a college degree and was making 150K before my job moved out west without me.  It was my decision to stay where I'm at and also my decision to become a sex worker.  I have a few more goals to accomplish before I retire "if" I don't get arrested.

Most jobs do not subject a person to degradation, possible arrest and physical/emotional harm.  This comparison of sex work to other careers just doesn't fly.  

You sound like a very caring person.  Please, this isn't about you.  

I prefer older men.  The men that are in their 30's (most in MY view) should be visiting strip clubs and wanking off in the car on the way home.  Have we polled the average reviewer?  It would be interesting to see if those that speak the loudest represent the majority of those who hobby.  

Maybe I should start asking those that I do like to review me?  I've never asked for reviews and very few ask me for permission.  This leaves just those that don't ask for permission reviewing me and obviously have no respect or clue as to what this board/review site is all about.  This is a choice I'm contemplating as an attack on the jerks out there who have no respect for providers and choose to see us as just a piece of meat.  

The truth is the majority of the best dates I have don't have the time or need to tell the world about our time together.  I'm generalizing again.  If every man reviewed every lady he saw on TER, you'd see a much different slant (my lil opinion).  

I cringe when I get an email or call from a hobbyist who announces his online name to me.  Yes, there are great guys here.  But, there are also those that abuse the system.

Sure would be fun if there was a test as to the emotional state of a hobbyist before he was allowed to tell others who to see and who not to.  If you have a skewed outlook on the hobby, go read ___ reviews.  If you're a mature man who's seeking something most mature men seek, go read ___ reviews.

Another note: I am well regarded and have above average reviews despite this rant.  This is really about the reviewers who review, not the majority I see time and time again.  More than half of those I see I've seen before and most of those gent's have no interest in sharing private moments in any public forum.

She's met my family ... I've met hers.  I know where the key is to her place and she mine.  We go to lunch and dinner regularly and she calls even more regularly.

When she needs to vent, it seems like I'm the first one to be called.  I don't vent much.  

Hell, as far as I'm concerned people are people.

Student: Thanks for starting this thread and thanks to the contributors.  Not much else to say except I am glad I am a member of TER and glad to be reminded of the sh*t providers go through.

I was curious as to what response my post would generate. So called 'letting the trade scerets out'. It did not surprise me to see that there was little to no feedback from lady's still in the business or if they did, they would not reveal who they were for as one lady put it, it would be "professional suicide".

To MyLifeAsMe's post, when I was working, I was active posting on TBD. I also got the comments "She really enjoys her work", etc. Trust me, I wasn't making what I was charging if guys didn't have that impression of me, and I was at the very high end and then some for my area. Guys on boards are so to influence because basically all you have to do to get a good rep is say what guys want to hear.

I never showed my face (for I knew oneday I would want to do something else), yet all it takes is one guy to say you look good and all the guys think you are a certain type. If a lady charges a certain rate and its high, guys automatically assume that the service is going to be GFE. Hhat we provide and feel are two different things. Hell, the lady's should be the ones getting the Oscars instead the movie stars. Its not lying, we just tell and make a guy feel what he wants to feel or hear.

Again, I don't want to come across as being bitter for I'm not, but I guess again as MyLife indicated, some of you guys get too attached and to be honest, in the long run, you guys end up getting hurt in the long run.

Its a double edge sword. Hell yes I got paid very well, but trust me, a provider pays a higher cost that has no price tag. Yes I do love men, but a provider has I guess a much more pickier view of what we think a man is. Trust me, we see most men at their worst and we play on it. As Morris Day said in a song "Its an easy money occupation, First class psychology". Well the money comes free enough but I would debate easy.

I have a question for the guys that I always wanted to ask. Why is it that if a lady has posted hours and days she works, a guy would always want to see her during her off hours/days? Part of the reason I never posted a phone number. Imagine how you feel when your boss asks you to come in on your off day or work over time reguardless of if you are getting paid or not. Same goes for her rate. I never posted a 1/2 hour session but would get requests to see if I did them as well as guys trying to negotiate a lower rate or lock into a rate when I rasied them. What is up with that? I guess coming across as being cheap or insensative is not a concern to the guy.

-- Modified on 7/24/2002 5:04:03 PM

and a few views of my own.

But first, I'd like to thank Carol and Former Pro for their very honest responses.  

There are undoubtably prostitutes who are deluding themselves into thinking that they will suffer less psychological damage than they will in fact suffer.  Part of this "wishful thinking" may result from a desire to stay with an activity that is providing a good income for as long as possible.  

It's unfortunate that much of this trauma comes from the illegality of the job, and the general disapproval of it by our society - the fear of arrest, the need to live a "secret life" for fear of being judged, the difficulty in having other women friends who are not themselves prostitutes, and the feelings of isolation this causes.  

I have always assumed that most prostitutes were abused as children (emotionally, if not sexually or otherwise physically abused).  My view is that this is at the root of the trust issues that so many prostitutes have.  A child who has been betrayed (and child abuse is the worst kind of betrayal) by a trusted adult is likely to grow into an adult who has problems trusting other people in relationships.  

I will say the one thing you may be a little off base with is the abuse issue. That is the main reason why I started my first post the way I did. I was never abused and did not turn to this for desperate financial circumstances. Like I said before, many lady's network to a degree. The majority of the lady's in the city I worked in, who were internet providers, came from very loving and open backgrounds. I would say I only knew one who had the abusive childhood issue. It seems many more women suffered the abuse from men when they became adults.

Like many of the women I knew, I would say the majority were divorced or single moms. I would also say the majority had little or no financial support from the father's of their children. I will also say a majority were in fincial trouble as a result of the marriage or relationship. I know this is too broad a stroke to use for a majority or women's situation but what I will say is that women have a survival instinct that should not be taken lightly. Many men could not do this job if the roles were reversed. Hell, you guys pass out at seeing babies being born and they say we are the weaker sex LOL.

Back to the point, I would not say that our childhood is the reason for the trust issue many of use have, but more so dealing with men as adults. Those that may have abandoned a family, or those we see as clients who we know are cheating on their wivies. Sort of reinforces the disillusionment of being in a commited relationship. When guys get married, in most faiths, you swear to God to be faithful etc. You don't say you will be faithful until a problem comes along and I don't want to deal with my wife. I've had married guys willing to risk all and give me whatever I wanted for the few minutes of pleasure I provided them. So if there is a trust issue a provider may have, that is one sorce of it.

Bottom line is a guy will say and give anything to get laid and a woman will say or do anything to get paid. Honesty and truth gets lost somewhere in the mix in most situations. The only difference between a wife and an escort at times is the volume and variety LOL. Just keeping it real. As one of my favorite wrestlers would say....... Can you dig it sucka!!!! LOL

Take care all and don't take yourselves too serious so much.

If I was still working, I would say the same thing too honey. Go on and make that paper. LOL

I would not hire an escort.

I know there are guys who are rude, ignorant and total pigs. But I have to assume that these ladies have chosen their life, and I am going to treat them as well or better than any human being ever has. I always pay them more than they ask for, to let them know I value them, and that I value the effort and sacrifice of their time and themselves, they are making for me.

I'm kind and respectful, but with the business-like distance that's expected. I don't invade their space, I follow their rules, and their lead. Am I responsible for all the horrific treatment these ladies have to suffer from other jerks, or the choice she's made to share herself sexually with men, in exchange for money?

To love people closely and to be with them in that manner requires being very sensitive to people's needs.  You need to observe your partner's emotional and physical needs to be good at your work.  It makes me more sensitive.  I am simply myself in a  session.  There is no need to fake anything.  If I don't like something someone is doing I let him know, but usually the men are very nice and very easy to be with and to get along with.  In fact I have a very good time during almost every single session!

Just out of curiosity, have you been able to be in a serious relationship since your retirement?

I always wonder if one of the highest prices of being a provider is that knowing the "true nature" of men (as you put it) would make it impossible to ever have a serious relationship with one.   (Ironically I think law enforcement workers frequently suffer a similar fate dealing with people in general since they tend to only see people at their worst.  I knew a Sheriff who started out fairly healthy and ended up on permanent disability with a bleeding ulcer.  But I digress…)

I have only seen a few providers, always for 3 hours and always with a lot of conversation and me administering a full body massage during the course of that conversation.  I treat these ladies at least as well as any date I've ever had.  They have all been very open about how/why they got into the business.  Everything I have heard from them is consistent with what you’re saying.

If we were all to be brutally honest, and I know this is a broad generalization for which there are many exceptions... if it weren't for the money the providers would not be spending their time with the hobbyist, and truth be told, if it weren't for our desire to get laid we probably wouldn't be spending time with the providers.  Not because they're providers, but because, at least speaking for myself, I just don't have anything in common with them.  (Although if I found a provider who liked to golf...)

One other thought… The stigma associated with the hobby is unfair in the extreme, but it's certainly not all born by the provider.  I would guess most hobbyists inhabiting this board are well-respected professionals.  I doubt of any of us would thrive professionally if we were publicly tagged as a "john" by the police.  That's assuming our wives don't kill us first.

Thanks for sharing your insights into the "hobby."

Clinically, this process is called
"Keeping A Professional Distance" - also known as "Dissociation", the same psychological process which
permits you to survive if you're being tortured or having your ear talked off.


The person who is the mental health professional , is actually a pretend self. But the problem is, over time, it becomes more and more difficult to switch back to the real self. The emotionally
distanced self takes over more and more of the private self.


In addition to shutting down emotionally, pychologists
must shut down spiritually. Then when they later want
to be romantically involved with someone they care about,
it is usually impossible to emotionally connect."


----a quote by a prostitute on the perils of going into a Field that passes a blanket judgment on the whole of a group by studying only the lowest denominator.






-- Modified on 7/25/2002 2:52:38 AM

Tonight I was on a dinner date with  a gent who I have seen for almost three years, and who I think verrrrrry highly of. He was fairly devasted when he read this thread.  I hadnt.  we went out tonight and he brought this up.  He thought that perhaps I laugh behind his back, because of some of the posts here, but I, not having had the benefit of reading these posts today was floored.  After we spoke at length over dinner (my having no idea of what this thread said), he told me that he was relieved that his original and ongoing assumptions about me were correct. That I was not "playing" him, and that he indeed felt appreciated.  WE hadnt delved quite as much into this subject matter, until tonight.

I know that I echo Nosc. I feel like a sister to this woman ... Since my dinner date,  I havent had a chance to read the posts of all, but read enough to get very sad and sick in the stomach.  I pray that those reading dont take the posts of the angry as complete truth. THERE IS YET ANOTHER SIDE.

I too am "delusional" in that I encounter wonderful gents who reciprocate my intentions.  Client/provider hemistry is or isnt BUT history between the two takes take time and trust to build ... we also all are guilty of having human needs, and need to try to find a way to forgive each other for that while also supplying ... AND receiving.  gOOD GOD.  AT LEAST WE ARE NOT CHEATING EACH OTHERM BUT DOES IT HAVE TO GET SO UGLY?  Anybody ever watch "NOW VOYAGER"? (BETTE DAVIS).

Talisa has some good things to say am playing catch up on my reading here....

Maybe, I too live in an illusion, I guess, and I LOVE IT.  Because without men to care for me in the way that they do I would truly be lost.  Lucky me that certain gents care enough about me to enhance my way. through life, even though it gets reduced to $$$, I know they honestly want to make my life better. They also know I appreciate what they bring to the table and that I wont bite the hand that feeds me.  In fact, I am tortured at times that I cannot be their panacea, and I feel their angst.

It destroys me to think that some feel the need to make this all so ugly.  We need to appreciate realistically what we can have with each other and stop blaming others when we are not fully gratified.  (

XOXO

fIfI







-- Modified on 7/25/2002 9:30:12 AM

for their comments and honesty. If a client had suggested any of this he would have been immediately branded a misogynist by some of the providers and their sycophants.

I was beginning to think that my perspective was skewed but I agree with MyLifeAsMe that your stories pretty well match up with the stories(feelings) I have heard from escorts and others in similar fields.  

Some ladies in the field may have different experiences than those expressed by the three ladies mentioned above.

P.S. A number of ladies that I have met in this business have undergraduate degrees in psychology.  Maybe Talisa is correct about the ability to maintain professional distance.

-- Modified on 7/25/2002 2:30:22 AM

Former Pro, I respect your thoughts and the right to feel the way you do, but just because a lot of ladies are on the meter with guys doesn't mean they don't enjoy them.

Nicole, is shock treatment extra?

I was ridiculing Ms Farley's statement and showing how easily and accurately her comments could be applied to her own chosen profession.

You should read the book "Games People Play" which shows a correlation between a person's background and their chosen profession.  For instance, a lot of nurses are "caregiver" types who took care of a parent, one who was ill, was an alcoholic or drug-addict.  Many end up married to men who are addicts or whom they have to take care of but after a while, the nurse, (the most abused profession  on the face of this earth) becomes resentful and changes from the caregiver to the torturer.  Does this mean ALL NURSES do this?  HELL NO!  And it is unfair to lay that trip on all nurses but there are a definate noticable percentage who fit that profile.

A lot of surgeons have hostile violent tendencies but they have sublimated those socially unacceptable tendencies and funneled them into something that helps people.  NOT all surgeons have hostile tendencies but a large number do!  Yet it is not fair to lay that trip on every surgeon you meet. (I went on a date with a Plastic Surgeon a few weeks ago, and boy did he fit that profile)

All professions will have a "type" attracted to that work.  But to say "All prostitutes are unhappy" or "All prostitutes were abused" is absolute bullshit.  There are other important factors such as the age the provider started working...

I absolutely hate blanket statements.  I heard a Psychologist say that men who pay prostitutes for sex suffer from low-self esteem.  How do you men feel about that statement?







-- Modified on 7/25/2002 3:07:25 AM

Clinically, this process is called dissociation - the same psychological process which permits you to survive if you're being tortured.


The hobbyist who is paying for sex, is actually a pretend self engaging in a sexual escapade based on fantasy where no matter what he does, the prostitute-partner "orgasms".
But the problem is, over time, it becomes more and more
difficult to switch back to the real world and his real self. The emotionally distanced and deluded self takes over more and more of the private self.


In addition to shutting down emotionally, hobbbyists
must shut down sexually in terms of real skill. Then in the real world when they later want to be sexually involved with someone they care about, and desire to give that person a real orgasm, it is usually impossible to turn the other person on because they lack the skills necessary to do so.


SEE HOW STUPID THESE BLANKET JUDGEMENTS ARE?  AND THEY CAN BE APPLIED TO EVERYONE!

exceptions.  Farley did indeed stack the deck in her research by (probably intentionally) ignoring those prostitutes who did not fit her "profile" of a prostitute.

Her profile is probably true of the majority of prostitutes.  However, the reason I am interested in seeing the kind of "high end" prostitutes that I am more likely to encounter through TER is that I am looking for someone with high self esteem who will suffer no psychological damage from this career choice.

It seems to me that NOSC and a few others have the self-esteem to be able to do this.  I think that is a wonderful thing.

My ideal provider would be a woman who was not in any way (emotionally as well as physically) as a child, and has similarly never been in any kind of abusive relationship as an adult.

I find it quite frustrating when people make generalizations of this hobby as a whole.  They do not know what they are talking about, for they cannot speak for every individual in the field.

It is true, that some women need to disassociate themselves.  It is true that there are women forced into this field.  It is true women are supporting bad habits...That is the ugly side to this, but there are other sides and there are women that truly enjoy the field.

There are two aspects of this Hobby.  The monetary and the pleasure side of it.  I had a very well paying career, but it wasn't worth what it was costing me in a non monetary way.  I have a child,  I worked long hours and began to feel as if daycare providers were raising him besides me.  I never had a lot of time with him because of the demands of my profession and he lost out on a lot of activities (soccer, school functions, math teams, etc.) because I was unable to take him.  My eternal excuse...my job...my job...my job! It is the internal struggle for all single parents, women and men alike.  Providing for a child and having the ability to be there for a child as a parent 100% of the time.

I started a business and as with all businesses, you nourish them before they can nourish you.  They are like children themselves for you must raise them to be strong and self sufficient, something that doesn't happen over night.  For the monetary aspect, this field allows me to live in the manner I did when working in my other job and allows me to take the time needed to grow my business.

In the non monetary sense, it allows me the flex time to be there for my child when needed.  I cryed for joy the first time I was able to play soccer mom, be there to send him off to school and be there when he comes home.  That in itself is priceless, to be the parent that I have always wanted to be.  One that provides and is there for all the milestones.  My child has flourished since.  He is doing better academically, is more secure and outgoing now.  

On the pleasure side of this field, for me, I enjoy the hell out of it.  I am twice divorced and although I may joke about it, the fact of two failed marriages had a great impact on me.  I made a conscious decision to not get myself so intimately attached again.  I feel I need time to grow myself before that can happen again.  Dating for me was a nightmare, for although it was made clear that all I wanted was to have a casual relationship, it always steered toward something more "marriage minded".  I quit dating for that fact, but hey, I am human and have needs myself.

This field allows me to have those casual relationships. I love the fact that I can meet with gentlemen, have a wonderful time and have the peace of mind knowing that this is as far as it is going to go.  I have close bonds with many and adore the hell out of those gents.  I have also been introduced to things that I have never experienced before.  I love the open experimental aspect of this that I don't believe I would have found dating due to the social stigmas we are raised to believe in.

I do not disassociate myself, for I look forward to a liaison as much as the gent does and am just as excited.  I do have my own wants and needs for that to happen.  I do not like the wham bam thank you maam type of meetings.  Not that there is anything wrong with them, but it just isn't me and I guess because I view it as my intimate social time, I want someone that wants the same.

Gents that have not taken the time to do their homework, end up meeting with me and expect a wham bam are the only times I can say that I have truly had a miserable time.  If I am not in the mood, then I just don't see anyone.  Bottom line.

The only drawback to this are the social stigmas attached to it, the generalizations and catagorizations.  My only concern is for the day that I do want an exclusive relationship once more.  It will be hard to find a gent that will be strong enough and secure enough to handle the fact that this is something that I had once done, not only out of a monetary necessity, but also because it was something that I truly enjoyed.        

There are so many different and varying reasons that women do this and they are not all negative reasonings, nor does it have the negative psychological effects that some assume we have and wish to hell that individuals stop stigmatising this as something horrid and hateful, for it is something else altogether.  Sex is not dirty or bad. It is something that is positive, wonderful, fun and beautiful all at the same time, no matter in what aspect it is that you enjoy it.  Different strokes for different folks.

Lauren

Great discussion going on here.  In fact, I would venture to say that the intellectual caliber of the participants makes the typical escort review content look like it comes from a totally different group.  I think TER should raise the bar significantly by dropping the very graphic search categories, for one thing.  Their very existence makes you think this is some kind of cattle auction rather than a place to gain insight about the real quality of the experiences reviewed.  Why not take the initiative and accord the providers more of the professional respect and status they deserve.  Maybe then the overall quality level will improve all around?

Very thoughtful posts.  Here's my two cents.

Provider or hobbyist, we are all living (at least for that one hour or two or three for hobbyists) under the society's radar.  What we do is not something we can talk about in the open at the next cocktail party.  All of us are living a lie, partly or wholly, and that has to take a toll.  Some of us are better equipped to deal with it, some of us have more to deal with it, and some can't take it at all.  It's obviously easier for hobbyists to get out, but not for the providers.  If money is good, your lifestyle will follow.  Once you are in that lifestyle, it is hard to get out.  I'm at a job that pays over $150k, but I want to get out.  All my options are taking a cut of pay of at least $50k.  I have a mortgage, car loan, etc.  It ain't easy to start over.

I think the best of us are those who recognize what we do, recognize the risks, weigh the benefits and deal with it the best we can.

I recognize that the providers I am with are faking that O.  That's okay, so long as it's a good show.  The way I see it I'm paying for a show, albeit an interactive one.  There are strippers who really know what they are doing on stage and those who don't.  Same for providers, but on the bed.

I am also glad your started this post and although I can respect your experiences and feelings in this endeavor, they are none the less your experiences and feelings.

Your views and experiences do not mirror mine, nor does your bottom line.  Another blanket statement that catagorizes all of us in a bad light.  

One can only speak for themselves, but can never speak for me.

Lauren

If there is one part about the business I don't miss is this. Its amazing how people can read what they want to read, and draw conclusions to fit their own views.

For the record, I never said my experiences was encompassing of all providers. Trust me there are ladies like NOSC who can do this without reservations, side affects, whatever. Trust me guys, the "Happy Hooker" does exist. (I bet that saved a few hobbyist from jumping off the roof). I was not one of them to a degree and the people who I associated with in Atlanta and other places had similar experiences. But in no way am I saying that my/our experiences are a blanket statement for every woman in the industry. I challenge anyone to REALLY READ what I've posted and show that I said that all escorts have the views/experiences I have. To be brutally honest, I was a hustler. I got as much out of the game as I sacraficed. I was lucky because it did not take me long to realize that if I was going to stay in the business, I had to have goals I wanted to reach and once I got them, to get out. Many ladys don't discover this until its too late. For example, I have one year left on my 30 year mortgage. This job was a means to an end for me as it is for a lot of other lady's I know.

As for the physical aspect of it, I'm sorry if it offended or hurt some people's feeling but I'm sorry there was only so much OF ME that I was willing to give. I enjoyed it for sure, but again, those with the sarcastic comments DID NOT READ my reason's why. Again I never said all providers are like this. For some women, it takes more than the physical act to get them off. When I'm in a relationship, and I truly give to that man, he will have a 99.9% success rate with me, and trust me, some clients have better technique, BUT they don't have ME. For those providers who take pride in getting off from every client they see, or say they do, more power to you. TO ME, my sexuality and identity are a little more personal.

To the lady, I think it was Ms. Foxx, whose client was crying the blues to her about this thread, what can I say? Again, READ MY COMMENTS. Never once did I say I or my friends took client's money and laughed at them behind their backs. I'm not that heartless, BUT some guys try to attach too much to this and get into my personal space. If you have numerous guys wanting to be your FRIEND as well as YOUR CLIENT, then I had issues with that. I have a real strict definition of who I call my friends. Again, I go back to the lady's that are still in jail in Tampa due to the TBD mess. Why haven't their "friends" put their necks on the line to bail them out? My friends don't have to pay me to go to dinner with them. When a guy takes his car in for service, I'm sure the last thought on his mind is if the mechanic thinks he is a good person. All that guy is worried about is that the mechanic does a competent job on his car for the service he paid for.

I as well as many of my associates have been stalked and harassed too much by guy who did not know the difference. Yes I cared about my clients to a point, BUT I kept most relationships purely professional. Trouble always started when I allowed clients to cross the line so when I say I cared about a guy for as long as he paid me too, that was the uncut, raw truth. I've had a client try to get my child taken by social services because I would not see him. That is why the line had to be drawn for one instance. A lot of lady's, NOT ALL, have to do this in order to function and deal with this business. Is that shutting down emotionally? I would say yes. It may be overly critical but the lady's I know will only give a guy but so many character points if he has to pay for it. If a provider's opinion of a client is such a big thing, then that guy needs to do a little self-evaluation to find out why that is the case.

Trust me, I was damn good at what I did. My dance card was always filled even though I prefered to see a limited number of clients. Another reason for my high rate. I hate playing the race card but it has been MY EXPERIENCE that my white counter parts had it a lot easier and that may also play into my point of view. Like I've said in other post, lady's compare notes on clients, and it always made me wonder why if the topic of Mr. X came up, my girl friends would say "he is a easy date" (lady's in the business know what that means), yet when Mr. X saw me it was like I had to jump through hoops. Part of the reason why I would raise my rates. If I was going to have to work twice as hard, I damn sure was going to be paid twice as much.

To the guys out there, yes there are tons of lady's who fit into your fantasy mode of being that vixen, read and willing for anything. That shoulder to cry on when you have a problem. That lady in the restaurant and bitch in the bedroom. Yes I was all that as well but it was what I had to do to get paid, it was not me. If my honesty offended some, I apologize. If me being outspoken about MY experiences hurt other's business, that was not my intention. If you look at the original post and question, I feel I answered it according to my point of view. Trust me, I do not agree with the social worker or whatever she is that this is all bad, the way she paints it. But I also challenge the women to say that it is all good and you get away without any emotional scars. If YOU can, then God bless you for you've found your calling. For me, it was a job, not a career.

The thing TO ME that I find kind of sad is the lengths some of the lady's go to prove, "I love being an escort", and "this fits my life style", and I really love most of my clients, and by the way, here is a link to my site LOL. Granted many of the guys are not Hannibal. They even can be great company, but I'm sorry, there were few that I would allow to cross that line. An escort’s job is to be that fantasy. It is not, IN MY OPINION, to invest emotionally in the lives, hopes and dreams in their clients. I could not, would not carry such a burden. Instead of building these emotional relationships with escorts, I felt these guys should invest that time into re-building that relationship with their spouse. (The large majority of the guys I saw were married). I know that view is like biting the hand that feeds but I'm sorry that is how I FELT.

Again, for those lady's that profess they love this and have a healthy perspective on the business, again, God bless you. My comments though were directed at the original question as it related to me. I do not claim to speak for all providers but I stand by the honesty of everything I said. If that is too real for some, then I'm sorry if you can't handle MY truth. The original question was "To work as a prostitute, it is necessary to shut down emotionally". For me I had to answer yes to a degree and I stated my reason's why. Also a lot of lady's I to this day still call MY Sisters, feel the same way to a degree. If you really have no say, except if they are abusive or the hygiene is just off the scale, to the who you allow access to your body AND they want more (your emotional commitment as well), then yes I had to shut down.

Guy this is as close to an honest insight as I can give you to ONE PERSON'S experience. Like I said, the "happy hooker" does exist. I was good enough at my job that guys never knew otherwise. But I had to be to keep MY sanity.


-- Modified on 7/25/2002 6:31:22 PM

Again, thank you for keeping it real...

I know, from what I've been told by escorts in honest exchanges, and from the ASPs I have dated socially, that what you say is truth. It is almost word for word what my dancer friend used to tell me during her moments of "clarity", including how the whole reason she and I ended up dating was because she could never get me to buy more than a couple dances from her even after meeting me several times.

I understand that what you are saying was never meant as a sweeping generalization - it was simply your truth, and some information shared in confidence about what you have seen and heard "from the inside". They were things EVERY hobbyist needs to hear...

I suspect that you are a hell of a lady, both skilled at your former trade, and compelling as a woman in your own right. I have no idea how things will ultimately work out for you in regards to men and your personal relationships, but whom ever is able to both see past your potential past and garner your trust will be winning over a worthy companion in the true sense, I believe.

Best of luck to you, and AGAIN, thank you very much for sharing.

many different perspectives, which I think is a healthy and good thing.

What this is all boiling down to is the pitfalls of blanket statements and overgeneralizations, as several of the providers have so eloquently stated.

The anti-prostitution people make statements that are undoubtably true about a large number, perhaps even a majority, of prostitutes, but are not true about all prostitutes.

Former Pro is right when she points out that she never said she was claiming to speak for all prostitutes.  However, NOSC and several of the other women in the business are so painfully aware of the stigma and the assumptions people make about them, without seeing them as individuals, that you can FEEL their indignation over this coming right out of the computer screen.
I can see how this must be incredibly frustrating for them!

The answer for all of us, not just in the TER community, but in our larger society, to stop pre-judging people by what group they belong to, and see them as individuals.  "Pre-judging" is the definition of prejudice, and prejudice is just plain wrong.

I can't speak directly to what you're circumstancs are...we have never met, and I don't know any of your clients personally (ok, maybe I do, but I don't know them as your clients).

Everything you have posted would seem to indicate that YOUR practice of the hobby differs (in very positve ways)from the mainstream> You posted that you don't like "wham bam" encounters - many ASPs (not all) schedule as many hobbyist as they can in a day. You mention that you don't "date" someone that after speaking with them via the telephone you haven't developed a good rapport with; many escorts make no such distinction and will see anyone who screens cleanly and who sends in their paypal deposit. In my personal experience, I only spoke with half of the providers I had seen before we actually met.

I think you sum it up when you say that you are the "exception" rather than the norm. And that is to your credit; you seem to be the lady I WANTED to find when I first started hobbying versus most of those I have seen...nice ladies all, but frankly, some were NOT people of your decorum.

I think that what I am trying to convey is being viewed as an effort to discourage hobbying. Not at all. What I am trying to convey is that guys really need to keep their wits about themselves. Even you admit that as much as you enjoy the meetings with gentlemen, you are only seeking casual encounters. Yet many men forget that....after they have expended more money than they ever intended via repeat visits, after they hav had their feelings hurt and heartbroken, even after they have been deceived (not what I am accusing you of at all), they find themselvs right back where they started - unable to BUY the true affections of a woman, because as any woman can tell you, the TRUE affections cannot be brought.

Does this describe every hobbyist? No...it doesn't describe me, for example. Any many guys have posted details here that indicate that they are quite clear minded about the relationships that they have with providers, and that they enjoy themselves tremendously, all while keeping things in perspective, thanks to the wonderful personal as well as erotic skills of the ladies they see. They get what they pay for - but they point is, they never forget they got it because they paid for it.

But when some guy posts how he saves all months for a couple hours with a woman...saves all month!! and calls her his friend...that is his choice of course. I just wonder if that guy understands that those months he can't save, he deosn't have a "friend".

(And for those of you who are reaching for the reply key, spare me any flames about clients really being friends...none of my friends require an exchange of money for us to spend time together...)

And thank you as well for your honesty, as brutal as it was....you were very clear...

"But, please don't assume most of the ladies you're seeing aren't just pretending they want to ravish you for your looks and personalty.  It's all about that envelope on the desk."

I personally have never been under any illusion about it, but there are new posts everyday from guys who just seem CONVINCED that their "ATF" is a close friend, who really enjoys their DATY skills and who is always glad to see them.

"Whenever a lady retires out of the business I rejoice.  She can now start mending the psychological hurt that reviews and selling their body's for money has done to her. "

This says it all I think...though it does beg the question...I would never do anything that caused me psychological harm I don't like money that much...and I LIKE money. So...why do "you" do it?

"I have a college degree and was making 150K before my job moved out west without me. "

You have an education and skills that translated into a 150K a year career, but rather than finding something of similar ilk, you chose (and choose to remain in) a profession that makes you feel the following:

"Whenever a lady retires out of the business I rejoice.  She can now start mending the psychological hurt that reviews and selling their body's for money has done to her."

There is nothing in the world that would make me do something that made me feel that way.

I really gotta ask...if you think it is so damaging, why do you keep doing it? You have an education and skills that are worth 150K in the marketplace, but you rather do something that causes "psychological hurt" so bad that you rejoice when others give it up?

You remind me of that poor bastard who begged another hobbyist to not get involved emotionally with his ATF, while all the time admitting that he wasn't going to leave HIS relationship with HIS ATF behind. He too was intimate with the pain of what he was going through..intimate enough to not wish it on his fellow man, but he wasn't prepared to end the self inflected emotional abuse to himself.

Interesting people in this hobby...

I understand it is only your story and those of some of your associates.  It does match what I have been told by other ladies in the business.  It is the first time I have seen any feelings like this posted on this board by a provider or ex-provider.

And I was just throwing your comment about psychologists back at you.  It is true that I have met a number of ladies in this profession with undergraduate psychology degrees.  Did they end up in this field becuase they were good at keeping professional distance?  Maybe they ended up in it because it is difficult to make good money with that type of degree?  A couple were abused as children.  Maybe that had something to do with it?  Some had substance abuse problems.  Did that have anything to do with it?  I am sure that there are other reasons someone could come up with.  You are right that humans are too complex to lump into simplistic generalizations.  In many cases people do not know or are unwilling to admit to themselves what motivates them to do the things they do.

And you are certainly right to view what anyone says with a critical eye.

Personally I hope that most people in the psychology field can apply professional distance when dealing with their patients.  The psychiatrists and psychologists that I know personally seem to have more than their share of problems.  Obviously I do not know enough of them to apply my experience to everyone in that field.  Who knows maybe some got interested in the field because of their own problems?

And yes I have read a fair number of pyschology books.

Yes I am currently in a relationship. He knows about my past and accepts it. Trust me, he paid his dues. Poor guy went through hell and is still here. I'm keen to most of the games guys play and can spot one a mile away. Because he knows this about me, he is more honest about the relationship than most guys would allow themselves to be. I have a low tolerance for BS and to his credit he knows that too.

In MY opinion you are correct in your assesment that many providers would not be with most clients unless they were paying for it as most clients would not be interested in a provider except for the fact that she is giving it up. Like I've stated before, I'm a black woman in the south. The majority of my clients and hobbyist are white males. Outside of the escort/client relationship many of the white males I saw would have very little interest in getting to know about blacks except for the entertainment value we can provide to them. Again another reason why I admitt I had to shut down emotionally to do the job. To hear some of my clients views on black males, and for me to know that I'm raising a black male, and then to be expected to be this guy's stereotype fantasy in an intimate way, yet to know that this same man would probably not offer my child a job if he were qualified just because of the color of his skin. Please, I had mental shields up all over the place. But that was MY reality.

Again this was not all clients, but enough to know that if I wasn't putting out, they would have no use for me. I'm not saying its good or bad, just a reality.

As far as the stigma, it is my opinion that the lady bears more of a risk. If a lady is arrested AND is working in her residence, that is a felony charge. If convicted, her chances of getting any real job is slim to none because of the felony conviction. If a guy is a arrested as a John, he will face embarasment and possible domestic hardship at the most if he has a wife. He pays a fine to the court if it goes that far. No John does jail time. Its a slap on the wrist. Every date a lady goes on can be a life altering event. That can be a source of stress. We have to worry about being raped, robbed or arrested. Even though the possibilities may be small its still there. How many guys can say they face the same stress when they go to work everyday? For a guy to be tagged as a John, its more a joke down at the pub and maybe a few nights sleeping on the couch, but life gets back to normal.

Oh one more thing guys, don't be so confident that your lady doesn't know you are fooling around. That BS about the wife being the last to know is just that. As Millie Jackson said, "The wife is the first to know". You guys tell on yourselves because you are not consistent in your behaviour. She may not know you are paying for it but she knows something is going on. No if she confronts you about it or not is her business but for the record, women are not as naieve as some guys try to think we are.

-- Modified on 7/25/2002 6:52:53 PM

-- Modified on 7/25/2002 6:53:29 PM

I can respect all the different opinions and views as well. Women have this gift of being able to offer up different sides of a story WITHOUT taking it personal or to blows unlike some men LOL. I was just clarifying some points. Everyone's view is valid coming from their perspective and experiences. I was just sharing some that may not be what some or most wanted to hear. Never ask a question if you are not prepared to hear the worst case scenario surounding the answer. Noticed I used answer instead of truth for the truth is subjective based on ones perspective. To the British we were the terrorist.

I'm not a big baseball fan and to be honest I don't know who George Bret is except for the fact he played baseball and got kicked out of a game for using a bat with tar or something like that. Anyway, I read a comment from him that went something like this"To me baseball is a boring game but I play it because I recognize I'm good at it and I get paid well to do it". Now I don't know if this man was a all-star or not but the quote made an impression on me for it summed up MY view. I was damn good at my job and I know my clients were happy because lord knows they came back, (even the ones I didn't want LOL). But again, I'm sorry if it offended some but I agree with the quote as it related to me as far as shutting down emotionally. A "client" was not worth it.

The more I think about it a lot of what is being said here could describe practically any business relationship.  If it's a revelation to hobbyist that this is a business relationship then I think the part where we shell out $$$ for the company of these ladies should be a tip off.

The truth is while I'm sure my trainer, golf instructor, accountant, massage therapist all appreciate my business, none of them would provide their respective services to me if I weren't paying them.

The same is true with my clients, I like most of them as people, and many have been clients for more than 10 years, but I almost never socialize with them outside of work and I certainly wouldn't provide my services to them for free if they weren't paying me for my time.

That said, because of the intimacy expected by the hobby, I can see where there are a lot of mixed signals.  I would think it depends a lot on the motives of the participants as to how much those signals are crossed up.  In my case I'm happily married and only occasionally engage in the hobby to fulfill a certain lust for variety, and the thrill of being with a hot woman. (the ones who wouldn't give me the time of day in college! LOL) But I'm not looking for a soul mate, just a few hours of time with a sincere person who will hopefully enjoy our time together too.   I would guess the expectations are different for hobbyists who are not in a relationship.

Likewise I would think providers who are educated and have other career options, but have chosen this profession for whatever reason, are likely to be happier than those forced into it out of desperation.

In any case at its heart this "hobby" is a business and in that regard it is little different than most others.


-- Modified on 7/25/2002 10:43:04 PM

who didn't become prostitutes?   There goes that theory.  

These are your experiences and are not uncommon.  I would say that 90% of the women in the adult service business should not be in it.  Too many women, IMO, confuse love and sex.  That causes problems when you start having sex with strangers for money.  Also if you are like most women and idealize men, you soon find out what men are really about and it can be very disillusioning.  I laugh at the average woman who has no idea about men.  Its kind of sad too.

My problem is not with your experiences but with women like Melissa Farley who study street-walkers and then lay that trip on all prostitutes.  Its bullshit.  I am not on drugs, I do not have a pimp nor a low self-esteem problem.  Heck I would feel bad about myself if I gave sex away for free to men who were just using me.  


A lot of this is about perception.  How you perceive sex.  How you perceive men.  How you perceive yourself and your place in society.  Most women should not be in the adult services business because they cannot handle it.  Most women are better off living in their protected delusional world thinking their loving husband would never ever cheat because he loves her and the very thought of putting his dick in something else would make him sick to his stomach.  (a married woman once told me this about her husband, a real sleep-around but she was in denial).  No one should ever do something they feel is wrong.  Personally I don't think this is wrong but that is my perception and I live by my beliefs.

Thank you Former Pro for sharing with us your true feelings.



Talisa

if you are married to a prominent man, it is almost expected he will have a mistress.  It is better and more proper a mistress than for him to be a womanizer sleeping with a bunch of different women.

The wife thinks "So what.  I have the name, the house, the money, the prestige and I don't like having sex very much with my husband anyway.  I enjoy the time off when he roams to a different pasture."  


For the mistress, it is not as classy to be the secondary consort but for a woman who is perhaps not from the right social circle, it is a good situation for her to be with such a prominent man since her upbringing could never have afforded her such a marriage.   However, a good family would not be happy about their daughter being the mistress and not the wife.


Also European men do not usually bring the wife and mistress into the same social circles.  The typical European man shows enough respect for his wife to keep his Liasions, well, private and discreet.  I cannot speak for Mitterand's actions but I believe he was private about it at first until it became public knowledge and who knows what arrangement he had with his wife.


And then a lot of these wives have lovers on the side too.  ) That evens it all up!  hehehehe

Since when are men all opened up emotionally when having sex with a prostitute?  (in fact most men are shut emotionally when having sex, period!) No one ever criticizes them by saying "Look how emotionally shut down a client has to be and I bet that bleeds over to other areas of his life."  but everyone wants to lay a trip on the prostitute...as if there is something wrong with a woman having sex without being all emotional about it.  Puh-leeze!

In the middle class and upper class levels, this is a business.  That is what it is and I wish people would stop laying a trip on it.  Women who cannot handle it should get out of it.

that a woman can't enjoy sex while remaining uninvolved emotionally.  As if men are the only ones who can enjoy unemotional sex.

Cableguy is right.  However I find many providers find it convenient to consider it business when it suits their purposes and something else when it doesn't.  Just remember that it is a business the next time something happens you do not like.  The next time a client tries to negotiate your rates don't bother to whine and complain on this board because every professional and business person has to deal with it.  The next time you get stiffed for a fee remember that most business people end up having to eat a few of these losses.  Also we have a few ladies who are well known for demanding services for themselves.  Remember you are in the business of providing services not receiving them just like the rest of us. I could probably come up with a list a mile long but I am sure you get the idea.  Have fun flaming away.  

-- Modified on 7/26/2002 3:33:00 PM

track record.  Also I am not saying that people who rip other people off whether male or female should not be called to account.  Personally I like the idea of putting them nude in a public pillory on the town square and pelting them with rotten eggs. LOL!

-- Modified on 7/26/2002 9:46:02 PM

i like Former Pro's points and her way of making them. i am on the client side of this discussion but there are a few things i don't feel are being said clearly by either side.

the sex industry thrives on the difference between the sexes. the reason there are so few men escorts is because men wrap their whole ego around their cocks. women do not wrap their whole ego around their kats. if men try to step back emotionally from the act the way many women can, they go limp. if women have a little lubrication, they can count sheep or fall asleep during sex. the whole dynamic is right there, in the biological differences. economics or morality has nothing to do with it.

we forget how fundamentally promiscuous human beings are. if all negative consequences (including shame, arrest, pregnancy and disease) could be removed, i think both men and women would be far more active and screw many more people than they do.

but a lot of the "shame" around prostitution is actually in place to protect the men, not to intimidate the women. would prostitution increase if legal consequences were removed and it was seen as "normal"? i don't think so, i don't think there are really more escorts in amsterdam than in san francisco. but would trade go down if escorts could only work out of buildings known to everyone to be brothels? you bet! how would the prestigious doctors, lawyers, entertainment stars, politicians and so forth get their sex? how would the run of the mill married men get their sex? how many men would walk through that door, if they might be seen by anyone on the street?

the psychological reactions of escorts to dealing up close with strangers, or dealing with emotional intimacies day in and day out, have to be similar to what psychiatrists or doctors or nurses or barbers or yada yada other professions put themselves through in order to get through the week. most of us agree about that.

even so, the physical acts themselves are extremely intimate and also have enormous potential health consequences. it's interesting to me that none of the posts here have gone into the scenario of your life on hiv medications, or the very real problem of stalkers, sexual predators and violent encounters. but those are real, everyday concerns.

some men go into denial and say, "well, i know she isn't really *having fun,* but i at least don't want her to suffer." well, do you care if your psychiatrist suffers, or your barber, or your nurse? hell no. you pay for the service and they do what you pay for. and if they don't like it they can shut up about it. but when it comes to escorts, all of a sudden many of us want to be nice guys. and this is just the wish for an emotional connection in the guise of wanting to have a *virtuous* connection ("i'll be such a nice guy"). one is no more "real" than the other. but it's a fantasy that is a hell of a lot easier for the escorts to handle!

before we get any more posts about how much the escorts suffer from conventional morality, some of the clients ought to confess to how much they suffer from practical immorality -- lying to their wives or s.o.'s, exposing her indirectly to std's, squirreling away money,  obsessing about atf's in between dates, having the usual atf fantasies (of being a friend, of having some kind of unique emotional connection, of saving her, of helping her, of really turning her on, of getting better sex than other clients get, etc., etc.). yes, some of us guys have actually grown and learned from escorts as people and as thrilling encounters -- but at what personal cost? what "hobbyist" has honestly done his emotional accounting?

finally ... where the hell did the name "the hobby" come from? that seems like a pretty delusional name for paying money to get sex under conditions of personal deception, risk of disease or physical harm, and punishment by law. phrasing the sexual trade as if it were a "discretionary lifestyle" seems like the men denying everything consequential about their choices.

i want to be touched, and i need to be touched, and i pay to be touched, and i like it. but i look at it in my own life as something similar to a drug addiction. i go into it as something like a magic mystery trip. i know i might o.d. on sex, or get a disease, or get hustled or strung out or hit bottom or splurge my savings or hurt my wife. the risks for men are real, too.

in a different world they might be minimal or disappear completely. but don't confuse the ideal world with the real world -- especially when you're driving at high speed on a slippery road.

-- Modified on 7/27/2002 8:11:56 AM

Interesting thoughts, but methinks you still have scars left over.

I am never about the drama, it's more about aerobics. I do demand a friendly attitude and a superior skill set. Your pseronal life belongs to you. I do hear guys talk about needing a connection, but that sounds problematical, I agree.

Women are essentially, necessarily nurturing creatures. I think the part about having to give that up bothered you more about being an escort than actually having to fuck them.

As for rates, it generally is not about what you are worth but what the client can afford. It is only business, never personal, I assure you.

I loved The Time, BTW. I guess we won't be playing "Wild & Loose" in your honor anytime soon

That's funny, I feel the most emotionally OPEN when I see a provider. I great session is when there is an emotional connection, not just sex.

Everything you wrote is very well said, very clear.  I agree with you.  But... how do you o.d. on sex?  Just curious.  Is that what happened to tho old guy that married the Guess model / playmate?

NOSC, if you choose to do a tour, you will probably have 1 or 2 clients a day maximum, all pre-booked, most of them are multiple hour dates.

PM riker to see if he is interested.  Being a gentleman that he is, I am sure you will have a good time.  LOL.

-- Modified on 7/27/2002 1:51:30 PM

-- Modified on 7/27/2002 3:45:25 PM

blanket judgements.  As I recall a few pages back Talisa implied that all of the ladies who were listed on TBD's top performer lists paid money to TBD or gave him or his friends sexual favors for being put on the lists.  I am happy that you have suddenly seen the light and changed your ways.

Charles Kelly ain't giving away placement on his list.  Even the charges by the police validate what I said is true.  I know the girls on his list are miffed at me for exposing this fact but that is the way it is and now all the hobbyists know.  

-- Modified on 7/28/2002 1:04:13 AM

Thank you for including my name in your post and for showing me that recognition.  I cannot think of anything to add to what you wrote, except maybe that most of Ms. Farley's rantings bore me.  

They abuse themselves in other ways .... bulimia, drug addiction, anorexia, alcoholism, promiscuity. Or they find abusive partners to continue the self-destructive pattern and inflict more pain. Hooking is simply a (seemingly) lucrative means to arrive at the same end.

IMO, streetwalking, escorting, hooking, starving yourself to the point of emaciation or allowing your partner to beat you to a pulp regularly; it's all symptomatic of the same thing. A lack of self-respect.

So according to your logic, if I fucked you for free then I respect myself????

First off Nicole, I am not the one to bring it up.  I responded to a post by a colleague of yours and I do respect the fact that unlike your colleague you have the guts to at least post under your name.

But please, there is no way that greedy Charles Kelly, the biggest whore on the planet, would just hand over a spot on his list that will literally earn a girl anywhere from 100K to 250K per year without getting some of that money for himself.  Chuckie doesn't give away anything for free.

As all may recall, he publically asked for donations to help pay for bandwidth or some BS like that and he had that solicitation for money posted on TBD.  Are you saying that you have never ever since being on his list sent one dime to him for anything?  Not even as a donation to help support the board?  Or donate to his widowers and orphans fund?  LOL  

I know TBD.  I know how he operates and so do the vast majority of other people.  Being on his list, paying for that honor is not something I put down because its a damn good business decision, like paying to be on Cityvibe or any other escort mall.  But being on TBD's list allowed girls to command high prices because the clients naively believed the girls on there were "worth" more than girls who weren't.   It was a damn good business decision to pay to be on his list.  

But now the game is up.  Everyone knows how his list works and even the cops charges against him confirm what I am saying.  


Its nothing personal against you.  It is not a put-down.  Heck you weren't the only one his list.  I am  not inferring you are not worth your price because that is _not_ what I am saying.  I am saying he is a pimp who takes money from girls to be on his list while pretending it is based on merit.


Could you enlighten me as to what is the subtle difference between say number 63 and number 64 on his list?  


People just aren't buying that his list is not based on money and/or sex for placement anymore.  Afterall this is the same schlep who has the audacity to send unsolicited solicitations to the PAYING members of TBD asking for money to pay his legal expenses.  And you expect us to believe he just put girls on his list without wanting (and getting) something from them?


Sorry, I don't buy that and neither do too many others.  
But I'll tell you what...if you and your colleague agree not to bring up this sore subject, then I won't either. But as long as the subject is brought up (we both know how she gets when she is drinking) then I get to respond.   Deal?





-- Modified on 7/28/2002 8:39:20 PM

For the record I have never spoken to NOSC or Talisa.  I am certainly not on the sauce but I hope you can identify for us who you are talking about.  That way you can drag another person's name through the mud.  During this whole thread you have been shouting at the top of your lungs about how you hate generalizations and have been attacking people for doing this.  Some of the people were not even making broad statements but just trying to carry on an intelligent conversation.  I just feel you should practice what you preach. I guess it is OK to make broad sweeping statements as long as you are the person doing it.

Even the police cannot prove that Mr. Kelly got money or favors from every lady on his list.  If they thought they could he would be facing hundreds of counts relating to that alone and probably a potential of 500+ years in prison from those charges alone.  According to the hobbyists I know,  TBD has been in a distant second place in the Los Angeles market for quite some time.  Many of them barely looked at TBD and spent most of their time with TER.  Let's assume that I am a top rated escort in Los Angeles making $200,000 a year.  Almost all of my business is coming via TER plus I am having to turn away another $75,000 that I do not have the time to service.  Why would I pay Mr. Kelly to generate more business that I can't handle?  I can't speak to the market in the rest of the country but suspect that this type of scenario applied to some of the ladies in the Los Angeles area.

This is not a personal attack against you Nicole so stop making it about you.


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7/13/02 Sample of Easy To Find "TBD Antic's Report" that I would think would mean police investigated and might be the real basis of their going after TBD, for not just hosting the TBD board. Just do a Google Search and you find a very detailed post which is a good summary of what so many others have known for years about TBD's "antics" and why so many people detest TBD personally:


From: HRClinton ([email protected])
Subject: Charles Kelly's Tampa-based Internet Prostitution Empire
Newsgroups: alt.sex.prostitution
Date: 2000-12-30 14:51:28 PST

Charles Kelly's Tampa-based Internet Prostitution Empire

Charles Stuart Kelly
(personal info deleted)

Runs the largest internet prostitution operation in North America. See www.bigdoggie.net In operation for the past three years. Now claims more than 1 million site visits per month.

Charges prostitutes as much as two thousand dollars a month (cash only) for "high ratings" on his "Top 100" list of internet-based prostitutes. See www.bigdoggie.net/national.htm. Also demands and receives sexual services from many if not all highly ranked prostitutes. Often refuses to wear condoms when receiving sexual services from women seeking a high rating and "good reviews" on his prostitution board, even for anal sex. In exchange, keeps message boards free of postings that would hurt the business of protected prostitutes.

Kelly is a former computer analyst for the National Science Foundation in Washington, DC. Head of Microsoft-backed World Association of NT User Groups, a technical organization for software developers and other IT professionals.

Sometimes tells prostitutes he is a high ranking Microsoft official.

Threatens posters who complain about the misbehavior of protected prostitutes with "outing" on his own message boards. Threatens and harasses the operators of other internet prostitution boards. Has forged various business alliances with other interstate prostitution operations to promote prostitution on his own site. See www.tbdxciteme.net and www.bigdoggie.net/pornstar.htm. Has claimed that FBI officials have given him permission to continue operating his site.

Operates other, nonpublic boards that permit prostitutes to share personal information about clients. Has occasionally used that information to threaten clients with public exposure.

The source of the funds to develop and operate such a vast internet business is uncertain. Lives in a $200,000 house in Tampa.

Involvement of wife Cheryl, a computer software analyst, in the operation of Kelly's enterprise also uncertain. Kelly has claimed in the past that his wife also enjoys the services of prostitutes, alone or with Kelly.

Insists on being addressed as "Big Dog" or "TBD."

Substantial documentation of all the above claims is available through simple internet searches and posts that appear on his own site. Additional written documentation, including phone records and taped conversations, is being provided to the U.S. Attorney's Office in NYC, the FBI, the Internal Revenue Service's fraud division, and the Florida State Police.

I never said your reviews were not true.  We all know you are a very successful,agressive, savvy, talentedm, ambitious, and skilled businesswoman and for that I commend you.  This isn't about YOU so stop putting yourself in the middle of this.  Its about Charles Kelly and his antics.

http://www.sexwork.com/TBD/tbd.html

-- Modified on 7/29/2002 2:35:08 AM

If you would like to have a discussion with me on this board, then I respectfully request you do so openly under your work name as Nicole has and as I have.  Otherwise I won't address you.  Its the least you can do.

For the sake of argument let's agree that you did pay to be on his list...now would you publically admit it?   I mean really would you say "Talisa is right and I paid to be on his list." ???

The truth is, it does not matter if you paid to be on his list because you have a good clientele base, are an agressive marketer and are very successful.  Men like you and are sure to return.  It doesn't matter if you paid to be on his list.  That is not the point.  If the men like you, as they do, then do you really think they are going to say "Hey Talisa said you paid to be on the TBD list so I don't want to see you anymore!"  C'mon Nicole, that is not going to happen.  You sound very threatened.  

If I am wrong then what does it matter to you because you know whether you contributed money to him or not?  I stand by my allegation that the positions on TBD's Top List were for sale.

The police have the evidence and the witnesses to that from the inner core of the TBD organization.  Unless someone testifies under oath that ALL the girls paid EXCEPT NICOLE OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA then I'll  believe it and then I will retract my statement.  

I still think you are damn fine provider.








-- Modified on 7/29/2002 2:18:44 AM

This is not about me.  It is about your broad sweeping generalizations.  If you are correct about the evidence the police have Mr. Kelly should be eligible for parole around January 1, 2200.

I don't understand why this really matters does it?  If you get good reviews, you get more business than you can handle, right?

I really think some ladies put too much stock in TBD's lil list.  If a lady needs to see herself up on that list and TBD bartored special favors or $$$, it's really no skin off my nose.  

Most hobbyists read the reviews, they're what show compatibilty.  Yes, there were some that believed TBD's list, but who cares.  

It just seems to be all about ego.

The FACT is, there are certain ladies that absolutely must be on the list somewhere for the list to have any credibility at all.

Does this preclude him giving preferrential treatment in exchange for freebies or cash?  Of course not.  But I can assure you that if serious hobbyists had consistent experience that disagreed with the TBD list, it it would be well publicized, and the list would be known to be worthless.

Now I know some ladies who were already on the list who told me that they had an opportunity to be moved higher if they provided favors.  One admitted to meeting him, and moved up on the list.  But the point is, she was already on the list, STRICTLY on the basis of her reputation in the business.

From what I've observed, the general content of the list is based upon a real sense of the broad based reputation of the ladies on it.  Certainly there have been a few (and it may well be MORE than a few) ladies that have, either on their own initiative or upon being offerred the opportunity, provided TBD an "incentive" to improve their position in the list.   But I sense that to the degree that the list is corrupt, it is corrupt BECAUSE these are the ladies that TBD wishes to receive some type of favors from.  It's in a sense, his wish list.  He puts the 100+ escorts he MOST WANTS favors from on the list, and lets them compete for position by how well they incentivize him.
But if he were to try to, for example, have a list for Southern California, and NOSC and WowNikki and Franchesca, and Jacqueline and Alli, and Felicia Foxx, several others were NOT on on it, well then nobody who knew anything about the hobby would pay any attention to it, because it would have no street credibility.

In addition to this observation, his list is probably MORE based on actual broad-based reputations in other regions of the country OUTSIDE of the Southeast, because the Southeast is TBDs personal playground.  He had another full time job.  So it is unlikely that he could even maintain close enough ties to 25 escorts from each of several other regions of the country to do anything OTHER than base it on overall reputations in those regions, allowing for the possibility that a few ladies within each of these regions might "incentivize" him to get more prominent rankings within the list.

I'd never insinuate that you paid for TBD listings.  I'm on your side NOSC  

Just trying to say that I see no reason why any provider would want to try and slander another.  Besides, is this slander based upon what a few ladies being interrogated by LE in FL have to say?  

"Um, yes I guess he put me on the list cuz I was nice to him."  "Yes, Officer, you're right, I'm the victim and TBD is the bad guy"  

I feel for you NOSC.  It's not fair you'd be thrown in the mix. If seems a bit petty either way.

If you are going to allow your own defensiveness to skew my arguement to an illogical extreme, I got no time for that.

It can be about ego for some girls but its a damn good business decision to be on his list also.  Those girls make buco bucks.

And I don't put any of them down for it either.  Its about what you can stomach.  A lot of girls cannot stomach the idea of turning their money over to him.  If you read the police evidence, Exhibit A, it says that some girls paid as much as $2,000 a month for top placement on his Top List.  In order to do that, they had to be doing marvelously well.

Misty you are so right...if a girl is popular that is all that really matters.    Its no insult to be associated with TBD if you are credible.  Like I said, its not about the girls...he is the one who has no scruples but what do you expect from someone with a prior criminal history for fraud?






-- Modified on 7/30/2002 3:40:15 AM

I believe all the girls on his list were fine upstanding escorts.  But 150 out of thousands...how did he choose those 150 out of thousands who are equally good.  What I am saying is that out of let's say the top escorts by reputation in the country, he put those 150 who paid him.  That is all I was saying.  In no way was I discrediting any of the escorts.  Its about TBD and his fraudelent Big-Pimp-Daddy ways.

It was never about the girls on his list...more power to them for making the big money!   Its just too bad he is so corrupt.

I don't want to mention any names but one very popular and cherished provider from TER comes to mind...she has 9+ pages of  glowing reviews...just glowing and she was never put on his list.  If it had been based merely on merit, this girl would most definately have made the list.  

-- Modified on 7/30/2002 3:37:49 AM

Who in their right mind would pay 2K a month for top placement?  I guess it does make sense if this also brings top dollar dates.  But, if you're getting good reviews, there should be no need to stuff TBD's pockets.    

I'm also assuming this gives a lady the $500 banner he advertised as well, bringing the placement to 1500 a month.  

The lady who made top list in MN was the first to be on his Mpls board and was his moderator.

In the end, TBD upset the community here and most migrated to TER when Staff opened up the Twin Cities board.  The moderator was asked to step down on TBD, shortly after she retired.  

Again, thanks Staff for opening up the Twin Cities board.

Thank you for stating there is some truth to what I said.  I appreciate that.  I was never trying to diss the girls...only stating what a slimeball he is.  I do speak from inside experience...remember I too was on his list at one time so I know his game.  He made it real clear to me.  What he didn't know was that I would have paid him double his asking fee NOT to have to fuck him!  HaHaHaHa.  Luckily I never had to meet him.  I don't think I would have been able to stomach him.  My friend told me he has body odor in his folds and halitosis!  YUCK!  Anyway I wouldn't play his game and he sent me an email that was cattier than anything a woman could have written and kicked me off his list.  If I had sent him the money he requested, I would still be on their but I had a feeling the cops were going to bust him and decided it was in my best interest to stay as far away from him as possible.

Looking at the number of hits our posts have gotten, there is no need to worry about anyone being discredited.  HaHaHa  No one is interested in reading this thread anymore.

I also noticed some suspicious goings one long ago.  A provider well-known to this board was up in the 20's and then suddenly dropped to number 99.  A week later she was up in the 30's...hmmmm enough time for him to receive her payment I presume?  Dirty rotten pimp!

Let's just agree that he sold positions on his list.  That's vague enough not to offend anyone in particular, which was never my intention anyway.

I never paid attention to where you were but it probably was to squeeze you for money.  Firstly, I resent placing a number on a human being.  Its not like you came out of the womb with the number 6 on your forehead.  Then how does one all of a sudden go from being number 6 to number 25 in so short a time?  What _were_ you doing wrong?  LOL.  Did your  reviews suddenly diminish in quality?  I don't think so!  And then what the provider who dropped from the 20's to number 99 and back up to the 30's within a 7 day time frame.  Believe me, it was about money.

Remember Gia Maria, aka Karla Vanessa?  She has the most amazing body, is a sweet girl and an excellent provider.  She has to be better than half the girls on his list but she never made it on there.  I can name dozens of wonderful girls who never were listed, even with his additonal 150 "honorable mentions" so it was obviously NOT about merit.

You were lucky that he stopped traveling to California...hehehehe  or he may have wanted to collect a favor from you.

It will be interesting to watch to see how his trial goes.  I hope its on CourtTV.  )

-- Modified on 8/1/2002 5:29:49 AM

I never realized that you, Jacqueline and FF wound up in lower positions.  After he kicked me off for non-payment, I didn't pay attention.  I never wanted to be at the top because I felt that would draw too much attention from LE and just being on his list was good enough for me.  He probably figured that with me being number 86, I would desire a higher position but I was happy right where I was.  

I think the girls who paid $2,000 a month were earning $5,000 a day and considering that, $2,000 a month is a small investment.  Had TBD been a woman, it would not have bothered me to pay her but because TBD is a corrupt man, on a power trip, having sex and demanding unprotected sex at that,  I couldn't stomach the whole thing.

I think the girls were much more foolish to have had unprotected sex with a male (not a man but a male...there is a difference) who is having unprotected sex with 5 women a week...there is NO WAY he couldn't have picked up STD from time to time.  Chlamydia, genital warts (which are linked to cervical cancer), too many to avoid when you are that active.  I think those who had unprotected sex were sick  in the head to risk their health like that. How low is a provider's self-esteem to engage in unprotected sex with someone like him?

Veronica Monet, Lynn Davis weren't on his list (I don't think).  Luscious Laurel wasn't and she has pages of reviews with 9s and 10s for her abilities.  There were so many girls who would have been on his list had it been solely on merit.  After a while, people take notice.


I worked A LOT when I was on his list.  Men would tell me that they ONLY saw women on his list that they "knew" he couldn't go wrong with a TBD girl.  Its sad how gullible so many of these men are in believing PR.  And then with him protecting certain girls from bad reviews, that means the reviews couldn't necessarily be counted on either.  The whole thing was so rigged.