Ok, I know you guys are thinking, "This lwien guy has wayyy too much time on his hands. Well, I am retired, but more than that, I just really enjoy good conversation and stimulating debate.  And in that effort,  I do tend to bring up some controversial subjects which previous posts are the catalyst.

shotdssherriff entered a post in the zorro debate.   You may want to read it as it is very insightful and well written.  I responded to a statement in that post and it is as follows....
Please understand that I am not putting anyone down here.  I am just stating how I feel about the following and which may very well be a very unpopular opinion, which is the reason I'm posting this in the first place.....
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Great insight, sherriff, but I gotta respond to one statement you made.

"they (Latin wives) will forgive because deep down they know THEY are the ones that have instilled us with the desire and the courage to stray."
--shotdsherriff

Do all Latin women really do that? Ê Because if they do, I think they are really misguided. Ê

We are ultimaly responsible for our own actions. ÊIt very well could be that a man may wake up in the morning and see his wifes streatch marks from having babies and says to himself, "I want better than that. ÊI'm going out to find me some young stuff". ÊOk, that's just one example, but for that, she should forgive because it was her fault???? Maybe she's not attracted to him anymore because he has let himself go and gained 30 lbs and doesn't realize that he has to clip the hair out of his nose and ears. ÊSo she's not turned on by him and not as passionate as she once was. Is that her fault? ÊCould be her fault if she didn't tell him to shape up.  We decide to partake in this hobby, for better, or for worse.  I don't believe that any of us can blame it on someone else and say, "Well SHE is the one that has instilled the desire for me doing this."

Like I said, I believe we all have to be responsible for our own actions. ÊNow here's where I'm gonna touch on a real touchy subject. ÊAnd believe me, I'm not taking the moral high ground here. ÊJust stating how I feel. Ê

I am single now, and enjoy this hobby, but I never cheated on my wife or any lady that I was with. ÊOne has to lie and decieve and give up his integerity and honesty to do that. ÊMy feeling is that if you don't believe in a monogamous relationships, than don't enter into one and make believe that your monogamous. Ê Ê

You gotta ask yourself, if the situation were reversed and you found out that your wife was cheating on you, would you forgive her because you felt that you were the one that instilled the desire. ÊMore than likely, you'd be pissed, and more than that, you'd be really hurt with a feeling of misguided trust,  and either leave or start seeing other women yourself.  And think about this.  The damage that is caused by trusting someone and having that trust broken can cause emotional damage that can last a lifetime.

Plus it would take just too much damn work to keep the deception going. ÊGotta be worried about phone calls, emails, what excuse are you gonna use tonight, can she smell the perfume, Êam I gonna get caught, what happens if I do get caught, Êwhat about the kids, etc, etc, etc. Ê ÊAnd on top of that, you have to deal with the guilt. Ê

Wayyyyyy too much effort, IMHO.............Much better just to leave the relationship and enjoy the hobby to your hearts content. ÊTakes a lot less effort but requires a lot of balls.............



-- Modified on 5/21/2003 10:34:04 AM

-- Modified on 5/21/2003 10:37:51 AM

Can't you just be look other retired people and DIE?!

http://www.patriarchywebsite.com/monogamy/mono-history.htm       There has been much discussion on this and the FAQ for Newbies Board, on this subject....I suggest a GOOGLE search on Monogamy. The Anthropoligists(sp?)findings alone are worth the time. Please spare us the guilt trips, iwien, cuz...Quote: "You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear" is not the greatest analogy, but it makes my point. As a species, we are what we are, dispite all of the religious baggage and social mores that are heaped on us from birth...Now, do we beat ourselves up for it, or get on with the celebration of life..? I, sweet man, chose the later....Kisses, Robyn

Please see my attached response to your "Losers?" post from a little while ago.  Incidentally, how's your wall?

-- Modified on 5/21/2003 1:50:36 PM

.....
The issue is how we can negativly affect the lives of the people that are closest to us and that we love.

Reminds of what Popeye said... I yam what I yam what I yam.........but if in acting out what you ARE seriously causes emotional damage to the lady that you love most in this world..............well........there's the conflict......!

We do have the ability to make choices.....

Do we choose to take that chance............or not?  Is it too high of a price to pay if things go south?  

That is really the question in this thread.

Larry

Oh by the way, the wall is fine, loverofwomen.  It's me that bounced off it.  Wish it was the other way around.....lol.
I'll look for an open window next time.  Just hope it's on the first floor (inside joke......)

Forget about the religious baggage and social  issues.  All I'm asking is, is it worth it all considering the consequenses, for you can cause someone else a lifetime of pain.



-- Modified on 5/21/2003 2:17:11 PM

...... that you see are in committed relationships.......

I know that you may not know exactly, but give us a round about percentage.  

Thanks.....

It's easy to sit here: single, unattached, with a parade of girls marching through my house, and render an opinion.

But, I WAS married for thirty years.  After about fifteen of those thirty, I made a TERRIBLE mistake, and had an affair with, of all people, my secretary.  It was a mess.  And it tore my wife to pieces.

But, I finally realized what I was getting ready to give up (don't forget, I was "in love" with this beautiful, younger woman).  What I'd forgotten is what love REALLY is:  It’s trust.  It’s honesty.  It’s selflessness.  It's teaching someone how to walk again, catheterizing them, cleaning them, feeding them, and still working seventy hours a week.  It's sticking with someone, who's doing something terrible -- even though all your friends say to throw him out -- because YOU love HIM.  It's truly forgiving -- I mean REALLY FORGIVING -- such an awful breach of trust, and never mentioning it again.  

It's doing all you can to save your best friend from being eaten alive by cancer; doting on them night and day for months, all the while begging that monster in the sky to take you instead.

Yes, I'm a player now.  But, I learned from my mistake.  If I find someone (which, by the way, I was instructed to do by my wife), all this will stop.  And all my girlfriends know it.

The answer is, if a person is in a relationship based on love, trust, honesty, and mutual caring, and they intentionally violate that trust so they can test drive this year's model, their priorities are screwed up.  It doesn't matter if, in the mind of the person straying, this is just a fling.  What matters is the perception of the other partner.  

If a relationship is not working, determine if it's worth fixing.  If it is, do anything to bring it back to health.  If the relationship isn't worth fixing, leave.  But be an adult.  Pick a path, and take it.  Don't torture someone for whom you once had deep feelings, just because you're comfortable.

I figure I have standing to say these things, because I was one of those whom I've just condemned.


-- Modified on 5/21/2003 2:50:01 PM

First, in composition:  You used, "ass" twice within very close proximity to itself.  In the future, try to use a synonym, such as, "buttocks," or even, "cheek."  It makes for a more pleasing flow.

Second, in spelling or word choice:  You used the word, "look," when I believe you meant, "like."  This may have been a spelling problem, or it may have simply been an error in word choice.  But it did cost you eight points.

Third, in puncuation:  You used BOTH a question mark and an exclamation point together.  I'm sorry, but this is inexcusable. This cost you a damaging ten points.

Please write your post again, correctly.  Thank you.

-- Modified on 5/21/2003 2:59:57 PM

-- Modified on 5/21/2003 3:00:47 PM

-- Modified on 5/21/2003 3:03:16 PM

And thanks a bunch for the visuals regarding the pimple on your ass.  THAT in itself should bring us to even.....

Peace out,

Larry

I'm retired too.  As much as I disagree with lwein at times, that's no way to talk to anyone on this board.  Why don't YOU eat shit and die.  What an asshole you are.



-- Modified on 5/21/2003 5:26:30 PM

I'm really starting to dislike you Lwien.

he's one of the guys on this board who needs a lot of attention and negative responses, interjected into the posts, whether he knows anything about the subject or not, seems to satisfy this craving. Best to ignore.....

modified, modified, modified...well, at least it proved to be excellent career training.  I'll take my 80 anyday over having to stick the teachers dick in my mouth.

seems to me like somebody senses Mr. Grim Reaper is creeping up on them.

How else do you hold a discussion?

I guess the answer I'd expect him to give is something like: "yes, unless 25 posts are required to fulfill my interest in the topic. Unless, of course, I can cover the topic in only 15 posts."

Alright... cynicism aside... why do you want him to post less? Do you feel compelled to read everything he says? I wouldn't have commented if this was posted by anyone other than the great "Greywolf". Prior posts have taught me to read a greywolf post. Since I don't understand this one, I feel compelled to ask for clarification.

regards,

you used the plural form, "teachers," rather than the possessive form, "teacher's."  

Were you denied a proper education?  Possibly, english is your second language.  Then again, maybe you're just not very bright.

I suppose if I were you, I'd be angry, too.

Approx. 80%.... I believe, with single men, unless there is a problem meeting single women, they dislike the "Wine & Dine" thing, they're involved with a demanding career and working long hours, a lack of desire or inability to play the "Game"of the civilian world, or simply choosing variety, will for the most part, do the dating thing, more often than not.  While married men that hobby, are usually those that have either had scary extramarital(sp?)affairs with all the drama and baggage and don't want to risk them again, or they they've come to the point in their lives, where they realize there is so much more to life, than what they have been settling for. Most love their SO and don't want to risk losing that security, but they believe they've earned the right to have it all and by getting their needs met this way, it simply makes them a much nicer guy to be around. In actuality, this hobby, when kept in perspective, can be a great tool. It doesn't have to be a threat to their partner. In many other cultures, the women see this, as a way to liberate themselves, by deligating a chore that they either don't have time for(due to work, children, etc.) or no longer have the desire for, to someone else, a bit like hiring a housecleaner, or Nanny. Many times, they will suggest a bordello, knowing full well, their husband will return, a much happier man. IMHO, this is the "unconditional love" we all crave, NO...? So how can that be wrong..??

It's neither what he says nor how he says it that prompted my post.  Frankly I agree with a good portion of his thoughts, although I no longer read the majority of them as I've found he has a tendency to become somewhat redundant.  My point is this...we all have opinions about a multitude of issues, but the majority seem to be able to express those they wish to share without posting to the degree he does, which IMO is excessive.  I'm all for 'freedom of speech' but at the same time think that in a public forum some brevity of time at the podium of time is  warranted.  I'm sure no one would want to know my opinion on everything...it wouldn't be that interesting, profound, or entertaining.  

You may disagree with me, as might others as well, & that's perfectly OK.  But hopefully I've made more clear the reasons for my feelings on the subject.

There's wisdom in those words, loverofwomen.  You have hit the nail squarely on the head.  Even though I don't want to hear it, it causes me to think.

I wish more posts could be as thought-provoking, as opposed to "people slamming".  Slamming doesn't require much thought, just a quick jab.  Some people might say that slamming is fun and that it adds spice to the conversation.  Yes, if done once or twice, but this continuous barrage of insults gets old after a while.

Insights like yours takes a lifetime of experience and a whole lot of honesty.  Thank you for sharing a part of your life  with us.

I have often looked longingly at my secretary's ass and even on occasion a housekeepers ass, but I have never been stupid enough to tap that ass.  

What could have been!  Now you are just a lonely old man that has been reduced to giving a score to my posts.  Do yourself a favor and end it all...TODAY!!!

or is it your brain that is so miniscual that you find it nessacary to demean everyone on this site to make up for your own shortcommings?

Zorro darling, I implore you, grow up. Im serious. Although we all manage to find ourselves acting childish and resorting to name calling, you have brought it to a new art form.

Take what people say for what it is...words on a discussion board. Stop making cracks about those who are obviously a bit more seasoned than you. Because guess what doll, eventually you will be their age, retire and if you are fortuinate enough, you will have lived a rich life and earned the respect of those around you that mean the most. But at this rate it's not looking so favorable.

I really do not mean to be redundant.  If I was felt that I was just posting to the group then my posts would probably be cut in half.  But anytime anyone responds, I feel compelled to respond back most of the time.  I'm not sure if that's correct etiquette here or not.

I guess I could have not responded to you, but for some reason, that just doesn't feel right.  

I usually only get involved like this on the threads that I start,  because I have a passion for the topic, for that's the reason I started the thread in the first place.

It's kind of a strange medium.  In essence, what's happening is, is that you're carrying on a conversation with someone and the whole group is listening.  More than likely, most people in the group would find what you have to say is boring except the person, hopefully, that you are communicating to.  That's not how the thread starts out, but it evolves into communication with individuals.

Anyway, greywolf, no offense taken.  I understand your point.




-- Modified on 5/22/2003 1:06:07 PM

.....but I apologized to you awhile back in another thread for publically bashing you.  I was wrong for doing that and I should have stuck with countering your opinions rather than attacking you personally.

Now I know you can't unring a bell, but wishing death on people is taking things a bit too far, don't ya think?????

that Fortitude is sensing any such thing. from what i can tell from his posts' he lives life to the fullest and enjoys every day that he is given.So even if he was , I doubt very much that a man like Fortitude would have many regrets.
But, on the other hand Zorro..how will you handle that time in your life? Actually I don't think you would be fortunate enough to recognize that moment when it comes, because ,actually it is a great time. One when we get to take stock and enjoy, again, what was given to us.
Where as I think someone of your nature would probably just have all his old post to rehash and smile over. Knowing that he was a very unhappy and sad person. You need to live life, your own actually, and not worry about others living theirs. Enjoy the journey.
There is an old saying, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit".  My sir, you seem to be a master. A unhappy, bitter and miserable prick of one, but a master none the less.

when I first told you that you should be like other retired people and die, it was completely in jest.  I think you could see it.  

Really, I wish no ill will towards any living thing and I am just trying to get under your fellow retiree's wrinkled-ass, sunspotted skin.

I guess that I should have expected some sort of chaos to break out on the General Board with my presence since I usually post to the L.A. board.  

As the L.A. TER members know, I will not be scared off any board and I will never back down from a fight.  As Popeye The Sailor would say, "I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam" and if I have to expose my erect forearms ala Popeye, then that is what I will do.  

Anyway, I am hopeful that my posts will not be singled out for a critique anymore.  All you are doing by singling me out for criticism is actually singing my praises by heaping all the attention on me.  

Peace.

and a fourth just spent a week with me from British Columbia (that's in Canada, you moron).  Plus I'm seeing two civilians on a regular basis.  The lady from Canada -- and her girlfriend -- are coming back for two weeks in August.

How do I get all this free pussy?  
Am I rich?  No.  
Am I really hung?  No.  
Am I gorgeous? Hell no.

It's called personality, Pea-Brain.  It's being sensitive, tender, responsive, and courteous.  It's knowing that being a man isn't a function of one's age, or the length of one's dick.  Being a man resides largely in one's ability to empathize, and in one's willingness to consider others before one's self.

It certainly has NOTHING to do with cowering behind the wall of an internet alias, and saying unspeakable things to people who're just trying to have a little fun.

Jesus, if I was as bitter, and twisted as you, and my soul was as ugly as yours, these women wouldn't come near me -- not even for money.  

I can only imagine the water bills run up by the women you pay to have sex with you.  Those poor creatures must shower for hours after being in the same room with you.

-- Modified on 5/22/2003 5:54:52 PM

.

Good stuff LOW! Godd Stuff!!!

I think its right to cut Iwein some slack since he obviously just found this crazy board of ours. He'll figure out how to blend in.

And maybe I just like him cuz he complimented me.

Thank you, Bob.  I appreciate your compliments.  I am retired, but not by any stretch old.  Not yet. Be that as it may, what we do have here is an individual (Mr. Z.) that clearly gets hard by instigating other members of this board.  I doubt that he has any life but to start trouble here.  I for one intend to completely ignore all of his future posts.  It would be interesting to see what would happen if we all did this to guys like Zorro.

And Lass, as always, your posts, your mind, your touch, is pure joy.  You will be sorely missed.

F.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I can't check TER at work since the network somehow knows what I'm doing and kicks me off. But thank you for the compliments about my post and for the opportunity to clarify myself. I think this is a good forum to work some of these misconceptions out.

First of all let me say once again that deep down I like Zorro and would by him a beer anyday. I'd even like to take a trip to TJ with him one day but seeing as how he's this Big Bad Rich Dude and I'm just a broke artist he may not even want to associate with my scraggly ass.

Now about Latin women and some you all's 'reading into' what I said. I think the way that some of you misinterpreted my point went a good ways toward further proving it. Someone mentioned to me privately their image of most Latin women as "subservient to their wife-beating husbands" or something to that effect. I am aware that this sterotype exists in the Anglo world and my post was an effort to address it and not simply to foster the cliche.

I was raised in a Spanish environment and I'll tell you strait up that my image of women is that they are anything but subservient. They may behave that way out of a sense of societal expectation but thats it! I see women as fierce and willful even vicious. Especially from an emotional standpoint. And I'll remind you that Latin culture is a Matriarchal culture. When it comes to home and family its the Mothers that make the decisions. They have enormous power behind closed doors. So understand that the image of the obedient wife is something created to satisfy YOUR expectation. Period.

Secondly, and this is where I truly enjoy sharing with people what I view as a perspective of my background that many of you may not be privy to, Latin people are 1)VERY sensual people ... and THAT has consequences. 2)We are very vain people. We have no compunction whatsoever about dwelling on physical beauty in either women OR men. The effect that this has on the men in our culture is what you have all come to know as the typical swagger and bravado that both seduces and exasperates all types of women in alarming numbers. It also directly leads us to having our well-deserved reputation as incorrigible womanizers. But I'll say it again - This is a characteristic that our women are every bit as responsible for fostering in us... knowing full well what it will ultimately lead to. So my point was not to transfer any kind of blame to women but to point out that we (Spanish men) didn't just come out of nowhere. We were raised by our ultra-devoted and doting mothers to be exactly the way we are.

The reason this needs to be pointed out is that so many of you are what I sometimes call your "typical person from Ohio" which I do NOT mean in any kind of condescending way. I'm just pointing out that Protestant Anglo society has this 'denial of the flesh' fetish that causes many of you to become somewhat dishonest and clueless about matters of emotion and sensuality. Not that that is a bad thing. In fact I think it led directly to the wonderfully stable and prosperous society that we all now live in. So thank you for that.

But if there is one thing that you can learn Spanish people is what it means to be truly "emotionally honest". It can often be a very disturbing sight. Spanish people are a tantrum waiting to happen. And once again I'll mention women. My view of Spanish women is that they have the capacity to behave with unimaginable cruelty toward one another. Docile ... pleeeeeze! But this cruelty is often directly linked to 'sexual mores'. I'll get back to this...

I want to get back to Zorro. He deserved a chance to defend himself and 'sort of' did but then so obviously became defensive that he just started ripping on everybody. Dude! ... Shut Up!! You're embarrassing yourself.   But my goal is not to rip on Zorro but more to get to the heart of the stereotype that he so obviously personifies.

I'll say again, Zorro is saying EXACTLY what he feels and NOT what he's been told is the acceptable thing to say which is more than I can say for many of my favorite people on this board. But there is an enormous amount of shame and self-loathing wrapped up in every single one of his crass comments and it just begins to make me queezy to even listen to. But its not that I have a problem with him personally. Its his  need to compartmentalize his sexual identity in such a strict way that causes him to behave so degradingly toward all these women. I guess that's where I begin to have a problem with it.

If I thought Z was a fullfilled guy with a healthy sense of self then I'd be 'hats-off' to him. But from his history on this board he definitely struggles with his identity and although that is completely understandable there comes a point where it becomes a pathetic caricature of the sterotypical mysoginistic Latin male that I frankly find embarrassing. If Z was a stupid guy then ... what are you gonna do? But he is a smart guy who just lacks a self-awareness of his own sense of shame. But its quite obvious to everyone around him and that's all I'm trying to point out.

And yes, I am saying all this shit, to an extent, in defense of the girls in this community. And that doesn't make me a pussy. Z might be able to say that to a lot of the other guys around here but not to me. He can truly fucking blow me if that's where he wants to take it. I'm as hard-ass a prick as there is around here.

Do I get special 'favors' from women from my displays of charm and compassion?? You goddamn right I do!! It's called being a Gentleman. It might also have something to do with being secure enough in my masculinity not to need to degrade women in order to feel more like a man.

And Zorro, you ARE smart enough to understand that. I don't think there is ANY need for you to act like a stupid Me... Nah! I'm not even going to go there. That's what all this is about ain't it?

You're a lucky fucker Zorro. Take a look around. Life is good! But while you're at it why don't you shut the fuck up for a second and listen to yourself. Get some therapy or something.

And finally I'll come back to all our favorite subject: Women & Sex. Let's remember that in the end what we talk about and do here is in a word: Illicit. It is illegal and there are DEEP social taboos related to it. By and large I think the men tend to get off pretty easy though. Other than having to lead secret lives and having to deal with our feelings of shame and betrayal (as Zorro has so bravely demonstrated for us) we pretty much get off scott free. My married friends are quite blunt about living vicariously through me.

But the girls in this community have a whole nother set up issues to work out. Not the least of which is dealing with the shunning and humiliation they get from other women. And I'll say for the last time: There is nothing in this world as vicious as the cruelty of a woman towards another woman. That cannot be easy to deal with I don't care what you say. So if I'm willing to cut these girls a little slack and possibly even deign to treat them as human beings once in a while then you will just have to excuse me. It seems to me like the least we can do once we decide to become a part of this community.

Okay one last thing for the sake of full disclosure. I am a single guy and therefore have that particular skew to my perspective. I am betraying no one when I visit my favorite girl and so if I've got a pretty clean Karma slate then that may have something to do with it.

That's all. I'm off my soapbox. Thank you for listening.

and if that seems adolescent it is because I am probably the same age as most of your children, or only slightly above.

I get a big kick out of hobbyists that are 10+ years my senior here trying to compare themselves financially and otherwise.  It is like a high school senior puffing out his chest and saying that he thinks he can beat up that 1st grader walking down the street.  So before you try and compare yourself, any midlife hobbyists, and if you are 40+ years old, you are DEFINITELY middle age, ask yourself where you were at 30 years old, first.
I've been doing this shit since I was 27 years old, full throttle, and been doing TJ since I was 18.  I didn't need my first mid-life crisis or divorce before I discovered the hobby.

Too bad each of you didn't discover "how to treat a lady" before wife #1--or are you up to #2 or #3--left your ass and took half your shit.  So now many of you have been reduced to not only paying a woman $300+ per hour to have sex with you but to deify her at the same time.  I think I'll stick to the $150 per hour Asian MP girls that deify ME during and after the session and the $60 per hour 18-21 year old women in TJ and Cape Town that may not be all about customer service but are OH, SO TIGHT AND YOUNG!

So stop saying Zorro's name and you will have nothing to worry about.  Go back to whatever it is that middle-aged men do with their spare time and leave me the fuck alone because I, for one, certainly have better shit to do than to engage in this mindless circle jerk that you have pulled me into.

 You've posted in the past on the LA board that you stay with your wife because of of the $$ she brings in, a much higher income then yours, if I recall..That only not makes you the ultimate suckup..but the household 'bitchboy'..on your knees boy

My wife does very well, probably about as well as an established GFE provider that sees 10 appointments a week, but I still do better.  Thanks for the concern.

Mistaken.

You had your first piece at 18? Confratulations, you are such a man!

I am really astonished at you lack of respect of for your elders. I wonder who pissed in your cornflakes to give you such  a shitbird attitude. Remember, you (if you live that long), will be "middle aged" yourelf someday.

All in all your adolescent attitude proves that you have never really grown up.

So, grow up Asshole!!

-- Modified on 5/24/2003 1:37:00 PM

See Robyn Someone else feels the same way I do. I know I promised not to comment on this again, but I just had too. It just proves what I always said If you are in a relationship, and you are not satisfied, then be an adult and get out before you go trolling.