I don't too much about the hobby as it existed before the Net and a site like TER. Seems to me, the environment back then would have been much more accommodating to anyone who didn't want to "operate" on an honest level. So, it's both interesting and strange that advances in our information and communication technologies may actually encourage losing trust.
I encourage all that will read and subsequently choose to post to this thread to read the basic rules of engagement related to posting.
Recently after celebrating my 39th year in the hobby, I began to construct this thread in my head related to what I see and hear that makes it more difficult to hobby.
In the last weeks I've had chats with both hobbyists and providers on these subjects and I'm making these observation.
A hobbyist meets online a provider from another state who is new to the game and proceeds to school the girl on the rules of the hobby. While he's doing this he's attempting to negotiate himself into a rate that is commensurate with washing dishes in the El Pollo Loco. How he attempts to get this to happen is by explaining the review procedures and the value of good and bad reviews. The net result is that the girl is terrified that if she does not agree to see this person, he will slam her in a review and ruin her business. At the same time he has seen other girls for multiple hours and provided a donation at the end of the meeting that equates to somwhere around $100 per hour. Again, the girl feels pressured to see the guy out of fear of a poor review. He pressures yet another girl for a FREE lunch engagement. But this time the girl is non-plussed by his threatening behaviors and tells him NO.
Another report is of a hobbyist that has decided that he will negotiate rates back from minimum hours to almost the minimum request, then see the girl and be 'ALMOST' finished when the time is up, effectively forcing the meeting to go to her minimum hour request at the discounted rate. In addition, he is working on yet another girl to fly her to his location for a 3 day date at what equates to somewhere around $40 per hour. Seems that this has become his MO as of late.
How many times has a hobbyist seen someone and the first half hour of the meeting is spent making the provider feel comfortable from something that has happened to her in a meetings with other clients? Personally it has happened to me numerous times. The level of uncomfortablity is so intense that the meeting ostensibly is a 30 minute meeting.
How many threads have you read where a girl simply posts her availability, the hobbyists go view her ad or site and slam the girl for her rates or her minimum requirements?
How many girls have I heard speak of mens' hygiene in a manner that would scare even the FDA?
Seems to me that this hobby should be based in mutual respect rather than the negotiating, underhanded and otherwise shady attempts at rate reductions and those who post availability should be left alone to request whatever they see fit in order to run their own personal business. Or the gents should just move on.
After all, this is a business and it is filled with enterprising young women that choose to do this for a plethora of reasons, not withstanding the issue of making a living.
How many times has a hobbyist encountered a girl that is NOT the girl in the pictures, or the experience is NOT as described in the reviews. The donation ends up being part of a menu and the meeting is far less than expected? Or, he waits and waits and is flaked on straight up?
I would encourage the entire community to take a look at their own personal methods of doing business and muster up some respect for one another.
How many FLAMES will occur simply based on the contents of this thread, the title being what it is or my handle being one that some recognize?
I for one do not get it.
My expereiences over the last few years have been, for the most part, stellar. Somewhere along the line I've learned how to offer and receive the respect we all try to hard to earn.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but when I hear stories like the aforementioned, it makes me wonder why I don't play in the civilian world, or just stop playing altogether.
I'll have to make that decision. But, while I'm thinking that over, I intend to have as much fun as I can.
Good post...I think we can all reflect on how we treat everyone, particularly within the hobby. My experiences have been(mostly)very positive, hopefully in part due to how I treat others.
I recently had a provider threaten to blackmail me for a review she did not like (which was totally accurate), basically saying she would get me if I did not take down the review. Providers' background checks are valid tools, but they can be easily be turned into a pretty nasty weapon. I didn't back down, but I am sure I am being trashed behind my back -- this for accurately stating that her pics were bogus and her self-description misleading. Burned by that I am a lot more cautious, I'm afraid. Makes me wonder how often similar blackmail has occurred.
In the future it may be helpful to wait a few weeks before posting a review if your experience was less than positive. That would make it very difficult for the lady to know who it was that wrote the review. You have up to 90 days to write a review, so there is no rush if you have concerns about a possible backlash for your review.
But here is to hoping that your future experiences won't be of the sort that require a less than glowing review
I don't too much about the hobby as it existed before the Net and a site like TER. Seems to me, the environment back then would have been much more accommodating to anyone who didn't want to "operate" on an honest level. So, it's both interesting and strange that advances in our information and communication technologies may actually encourage losing trust.
I have heard of this happening a lot and even people bragging in chat about bargaining for rates. It is unfortunate that this is happening and cheapens the hobby as we know it. When a rate is too high, it's best to move on and find someone in your price range. It's no wonder that some ladies state on their website that rates are non-negotiable and to look elsewhere if beyond your ability to pay. It's best to respect the dignity of the lady in dealing with her.
As long as I'm not being upsold, I pay the freight, double it with respect, and I always end up having a great time. Those who try to bargain, will not get the same attitude from a gal that the rest of us do.
when I read about men and women who behave this way. I can say with 100% accuracy that I have never asked a lady to lower her rate or tried to do so through misleading behavior. On more than one occasion I have turned down attempts by a provider to "discount" just to secure an appointment--I'm not selfless, I just know that you get what you pay for.
A recent article in the Atlantic Monthly talking about the new crop of "Lad Mags" suggests that many of the so-called men reading them are little more than stalled adolescents who prefer the often bigoted, lowbrow and sometimes weirdly homoerotic fantasies in Maxim, Stuff, et al. The article makes a distinction between readers of this piffle and those of us who grew up reading Playboy or even Penthouse. These distinctions would hardly make any sense to anyone outside the hobby but I think we all realize that there are those in the hobby who are either dreadfully fearful of women or contemptuous of them (or both) and those who love the company of women and celebrate them every time they have the chance. That both types are willing to pay for the company of women might make this a distinction without a difference to many civilians, I think we can recognize someone who treats women as they would a neighbor's tools--with low regard and covetous presumption, and those hobbyists who want nothing more than to be happy for a few moments in the company of someone who seems to enjoy their company in return. Are we all just underdeveloped, oversexed and prone to situational ethics? Or are there shades of gray amongst the huge population of hobbyists (and providers) in this curious distraction we've chosen to pursue? I like to think that most of us are not like the guy in the gonzo videos slapping and choking women or hobbyists who behave as the post above suggests, and instead are the kind of guys who think that a provider who makes us feel special and with whom we might share some mutually enjoyable physical encounters is someone worth the same decent treatment we would hope for ourselves. Just a thought.
There are threads out there of "Shitty Client Tricks" somewhere... maybe not on this board I'll have to look them up when I have time... my free time was consumed reading this thread...
Thanks ML, and your observation is absolutely correct!
This IS really only the tip of the iceberg. I wanted to make this thread go to the point and make people THINK! I'm sure had I spent more time thinking of all the nonsense that goes on I'd still be typing the original.
This is one of the most honest and true post I have read in a long time. I also think it was very bold of Tra to shead some light on this subject. No for my $0.02 I know I have had my fair share of the stinkies and have learned to politely suggest a shower. However, when coming to see someone you would think they would either shower prior to arrival or ask to shower without being requested. I as a provider, try to take every precausion to smell and look my best or very close to it whenever I am meeting someone. I have also found that there are some gentlemen that take their reviewee status for granted. I have had several guys approach me by phone, IM, and/or e-mail asking to trade service for a great review. Honestly, I have 9 pages of reviews that are pretty close to great, so why would I need one more? Oh because you have 80+ reviews? I don't think so. That's like someone going into a business and saying I'll work for free as long as I can put you on my resume. But Tra is right. There are these new girls that these type of guys try to attack and make them believe without a review they just won't work. Or, if you don't see me I will make it hard for you to get appointments. This is simply a scare tactic, but how many times have we heard of it happening and the woman is scared and new, so she caves in not knowing any better. The last topic I'd like to touch on is the "discount" factor. Once again I have had guys personally tell me "everyone gives me a discount." Well, I'm not everyone. Another time, I had someone ask me for a four hour appointment "off the clock (everything included not just dinner)because he had spent his play money for the year." Let me start by saying this. I have friends and gentlemen I have seen for 3 yrs and they have yet to get a discount let alone 4 whole hours off the clock. I thought this was not only a bold move, but an over the top request. The reason I was asked besides the "play money being spent for the year" was "I don't see younger ladies but you seem mature for your age." You have got to be kiding me. I agree with Tra to the fullest with the comment about mutual respect. We don't go to loan offices and ask for a loan and not give our credit history or without having to pay it back. Why do people think this "business" is any differnet. You sell a car a house or some other commoditity that is in demand as do we. We don't ask for free services so why should you? I have had so many fabulous experiences in this business and can whole heartedly say I love what I do. But there is alway somebody or bodies in ever work enviroment that feel they need special treatment or deserve it. In all actuallity, we are all equals and need to be treated that way.
I am very new to the hobby and this truely hits the nail right on the head for what my personal expierience's have been. I have made some very close personal friends in the last 6 months through this hobby and it truely has bothered me to see theese exact same things happen to providers that I am close to. I was shocked to actually learn that guys actually do try and bargain their rates before hand let alone make a link to their $ paid with the score of the reviews. I cant imagine anything less pathetic than trying to do something like that to a new girl who doesnt know any better. You have done a great job at pointing these things out and I do believe that it is extremely important to take a step back and think about what mutual respect means. It is not the things identified in this post that I have personally witnessed in my short time here.
There are men and ladies out there who experience much worse than even this. It's time for a change. When the ladies are more comfortable, your experince will be more rewarding. I see that you have seen stellar ladies with the best of reputations. Even with their top rate reputations, I would bet, that they have experienced some shady clients at one time or another. People who care about others will read this. People who want to see things change for the better and for everyone, not just providers, will want to read this. That's who will want to read all of this.
I'm not disputing anything you said. My guess is that for every righteous provider who have gotten shit on by a rotten hobbyist, there's a honest hobbyist who is either getting NCNS or upsold on services that her ad didn't mention were extras.
I figure that the vast majority of all of us here on TER are upstanding citizens (??) and treat each other with respect. After all, I don't hobby because I have hate issues with women. On the contrary, I do it because I absolutely love women.
Ok, I guess we're all done preaching to the choir.
in the hobby. This community is not unlike the general population. There are kind, respectful and honest people and there are nasty, manipulative and dishonest people.
For whatever reason (and we can debate this forever), we tend to live in a time where attention is most often focused on the negative rather than the positive. The media thrives on reporting news about the acts of bad people and seldom it seems do we hear about acts of kindness. Someone steals a purse and it gets printed. Someone returns a lost wallet and you rarely hear about it. In this vein I think that most would agree that although the negative garners most of the attention that there is more good than bad overall.
Well the hobby is no different. Poor behavior and conduct by both ladies and gents boils our blood and we get pissed and we sometimes allow it to color our opinion of the entire community. In the meantime honest and mutually respectful encounters occur with a much higher frequency and this takes a backseat because it is the expected norm.
There is no doubt that what is described in the original post is (a) real and (b) unfortunate. But I do not think it at all represents the majority of what goes on here.
In response to your thread...i totally agree with you.Its a sad day when a guy calls a provider and begins negotiating her prices as though he is buying a car. I think a girl should be able to post on a board for her advertisment and what her donation maybe is just that....but dont blast her...just dont see her...I have learned alot about this business even though i havent been in it a long time...but i know that there is respect issue between hobbiest and providers that should be kept.
may be, it is good to get issues on the table. Odd, when I post something of this sort... it tends to be misread by many... perhaps your post will be read and folks will realize that we just want the hobby to be better- for ALL participants... Well put. wish I had written it.
I can hardly get guys TO post reviews. Let alone trying to get something free. I have had alot of guys invite me to their hotels yet think the room is on me and deduct that from the fee, um, no. And try to persuade me because they are "nice guys" "I'm a baller on a budget" well then go find a girl in your range. Seriously.
I also write reviews... wrote over 20 or so under another name and now have 11 or so under the Bizzaro name... When I make a "date" I know the price.... and If I cannot afford it, then I don't make the date! In only two instances have I felt that I short-changed the lady... and In one of those instances I made it up to her with a treat - other than money - it was an event that she wished to see! Nice lady, Nice time...
if I could ever figure this board out! I would be just swell.... and yea, I know it is imperfect... but that is why they put erasers on pencils... white-out was invented... and we hold elections every 2 years!
So, Ms Lissa I've never met you, but I would not try to get something for free from you.
Hmm, not meant towards you at all I posted under the last post instead of the first post so consequently it was directed at the main point of conversation not directed at you my apologies if you were offended.
On more than one occasion I have met with a provider - either one that I am meeting for the first time, or one that I have met before... and Tra - you are correct, the guy before me, left tracks... of all kinds... he said hurtful things about the lady, threatened her, he stiffed her, he went over when not invited, he was unclean.... whatever.
I have railed on this several times on this board... to providers I would say, as a guy, I recognize that this stuff happens - but it is not me !!!! I did not do that to you. and I do not mind putting your mind at ease about me, but recognize that this is a forum that can (and probably should) be used to air these issues.... Exposure is the only tool that will work... Cause lets face it, unless you are very well connected (and I do mean VERY WELL) the BBB is not gonna ride in on a white horse and save you.
God knows that there are any number of women that have had these experiences. And, the same with hobbyists. It's truly a shame to be in the position to have to protect ourselves from all this stuff eh?
I bet there women who would like to chime in having gone through this stuff.
Maybe if we thought of the names (privately) of those women that are obviously the upscale type and considered the 'remote' possibility that they have ever considered some form of negotiation we could come up with a handful.
I still cannot believe these comments about sessions being 20-30 minutes or less. I don't know how some girls get away with this. I mean I do believe it but don't see how anyone goes along with that.
Hope I read that part right. Were you saying that the meeting is only 30 minutes with some providers?
An hour is an hour. Sure some guys do leave early or vice versa but it's rare for me anyways.
Girls go through so much crap sometimes that I have attended meetings where the first 30 minutes are spent getting comfortable and getting to know one another, to be at ease. Then the remaining 30 minutes is the fun stuff.
Although it has been a number of years since I've done a 1 hour appointment, sometimes it still takes some time for a comfort level to be created.
As you know ... master Tra (seriously ... i'm not worthy - you're my guru ... I hobby what ... once, twice a year? For me PERSONALLY, hobbying is something I do to treat myself when I think I deserve a treat and for me PERSONALLY, I spend HOURS AND HOURS looking for the right woman. Why? Because I want to spend time with someone, getting to know them as much as I can so I can enjoy the whole session. For me ... PERSONALLY, an FS session is not mandatory for it to be completely satisfying as I truly feel humbled when I am with the right provider. I have a deep respect for providers because in my humble opinion, they are the most honest, raw, down to earth people on the planet. They take risks I could never take, and they typically view life from a perspective of genuine honesty and integrity.
Taking myself out of the picture, I must make note of the fact that our society - as a *hypocrytical* whole - frowns IMMENSLY on this business. The sociological stigma breeds mental ignorance in many people and as you know ... many choose to act out instead of seeking to educate themselves.
THEN, you have the simpleton - plain 'ol assholes who are so self centered, they couldn't practice integrity if they were seeking a healing touch from Christ himself. These are the people who burn through one person after another ... one relationship after another ... one business associate after another ... one job after another. They have no interest in finding a balanced - synergistic lifestyle, where interdependence and mutual respect are the fuel and lubricant which makes life flow in absolute harmony.
In short - people are human, and humans are DEEPLY flawed. The answer to the problem, on both sides of the issue - is proper education.
I, for one, have always believed that TER should have a 'hobbiest' review section where providers can post their reviews of hobbiests so that providers can read the reviews (not necessarily so hobbiests can read them). However, I have thought this out in much detail and came to the realization that in practice, this simply wont work for many reasons. But it does not negate the reality that a no matter what profession you choose to interact with, you MUST, without question, get properly educated in it before you engage it. No matter what side of the relationship you find yourself on.
An experienced and knowledgable provider can usually wade through the assholes, and an experienced and knowledgable hobbiest can find the diamonds in the ruff (Love you AVA!) ...
I only hope that new hobbiests and new providers happen to stumble upon posts like this one. It should be a mandatory read IMHO.
Getting a provider to loathe them first is moronic.
If guys are negotiating like that, there's something else at stake other than saving a few bucks. It must be the power of it, where getting the sex for least is more enjoyable than the sex.
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... I hobby what ... once, twice a year? For me PERSONALLY, hobbying is something I do to treat myself when I think I deserve a treat 