Im not trying to feed the fire and further fan the flames of hate (ooh say that three times fast), but it seems to me Im must be confused (or mean). Is this not, a BUSINESS? It is a regular trade, with constant traffic, very in demand, many millions of people involved, many dedicated people helping to push the market further for the future? So why in heavens name do we treat it any different, just because the product involved is indeed sex, and not a tangible actual physical product?

You go into any place that offers a service to you right there in the shop; you have the service; you then complain that something went wrong; 98% of the time, the manager or owner of that establishment is going to give you that service (or at least your next service with them) for free, right?

So why are we thinking any different with selling sex? Why is he wrong for not paying for a non-affective service. Your time with a provider is supposed to be one of relaxation, pleasure and enjoyment. Not stress, and trial and trouble. Are we not counting that? Are we not counting that they were not delivered as promised? That he was caused issues with the prospect of being stolen from, and the agency guy freaking out. How is he stealing from her if indeed what she said she was going to do as a business woman was not done? The girl is a thief, what pity should we have for someone who is soiling the good name of private entertainment? Bad business ethic; bad, bad business ethic...

So my question-- who truly would have given the money back? Considering all I have said right now; not out of a bleeding heart; not out of want for no trouble caused; I mean because you truly think she deserved it... and please give a little reasoning behind your response if you can...

Im not trying to start a war, at all-- this is a friendly question I would really like to know as many peoples possible answers to. It seems to me that because of the delicacy of the issue that people are forgetting the basic life and business rules...

And by the way...

Basic business rule:
Customer comes first, no matter what, especially in times of trouble caused by employees...

Basic life rule:
Call it Kharma, "reap what you sow", "do unto others", or just plain "you get what you give"-- but she treated him like an object painted with dollar signs, a cash machine, and not as a valued human being so why should she be treated the same?. She showed him she didnt give a fuck, and that to me is not the way of the internet caliber provider (which also goes back to my comment on "street grils" heh) She lowered herself, and so in doing so she deserves to be treated just the same....

I dont pity the unworthy... and Im am a true business woman in all aspects...

give me your thoughts on this...

Dani

I am on the fence with this to be honest.  

1) he got a service, he should pay no matter.  

2) he is also stealing by not paying her, they are even?

3) He could have posted his almost rip off experience all over the net along with her pic?

4) he should have done his homework, caveat emptor he should not have been so ignorant leaving a wallet with a newbie, like he was tempting her on purpose to find reason to not pay. anyone who has travelled that much and seen so many ladies can not be so stupid in real life. his excuse is hard to swallow


but

a) She was very much in the wrong and deserves to be penalized

b)  maybe he was a bad client and tightwad and she felt she deserved a self awarded tip (bit o' sarcasm)

c)  she thought he shorted her $20.00

But she did her job 50% would have been right, agency fee and her getting 50%, I have a hunch that poster seeks the dregs.  Ya get what ya pay for  I bet he has never tipped either.  An ageny who doesn't answer when a gal is on a call+ male run.  HA!

WELL IF THIS BUNNESS WAS LEGAL THAN WOULD BE ABLE TO CHEACK OUT MORE SERVICE. ALSO MANY OF THES GRILS HAVE PIMPS THAT LOOK LIKE AGANCIES. I NEVER DEAL WITH A AGANCY IF A GUY IN INVOLVE NOT WORTH THE RISK. KEEP YOU SAFTY IN MINE.

also bring only what you need keep x ters in you car hidden even the keys if you have a key pad. when you get done you should have no weight on you wase.

Two different questions:  Was service provided?  Yes.  Then payment was due.  Was there a problem after?  Yes.  Then some appropriate recompense or retribution was required.  The provider could have offered a refund or discount.  If she did not, there was no "right" to not pay.  On the other hand, there certainly was just cause for a review highlighting the attempted theft and a call to the service about same.  When a restaurant/hotel/car mechanic gives me lousy service, I don't walk out with out paying for services actually rendered--I let them offer compensation.  If they don't, no more of my business and they will suffer by my word of mouth.  What's so hard about that?

Dani,

In an earlier thread you described trying to help some less sophticated providers learn the "game" and do it the right way... I agree with your angle on customer service and though the attempted theft was a breach of the first rule of customer service, it did not warrant him not paying for what he had already accomplished... Too many of these SWs are cleaning up enough to use nice hotels and the internet, but as you said, you can take them to water, but you cannot make them drink. The hobby is becoming flooded with so many rank amateurs that it gives pause to why any hobbyist would risk seeing a provider without an established track record ever... I have slowed my roll the past couple of years because of travel and not knowing enough indies in the cities I travel to...One hobbyist referred to the it as the 'agency trap' and because of the games that are being played on the unsuspecting guy whose only sin is that he wants to get laid and receive fair value for his donation. These agencies mainly are pushing street trash out there for top fees and hold no one accountable but the poor hobbyist in the form of his cash. These providers cannot be legally disciplined and I suspect that some are just one step away from a crack house to boot.

Two points:

1) In your example, when you complain about a service, the manager or owner "is going to give you that service (or at least your next service with them) for free."  The key here is that the owner/manager makes that offer to you.  You don't take the offer on your own.  In the normal business world, offering the service for free is just good business sense on the owner/manager's part, but legally I think you would still be liable for the payment if you used the service unless they had some sort of satisfaction guarantee.  You could refuse to pay, but if the owner/manager pulled out a gun and demanded that you pay, I don't think it would be very effective to be quoting business ethics.  Which brings me to my second point...


2) There are businesses and then there are "businesses."  Not everybody plays by the same rules.  If the business was a drug deal (not that I have any experience) and you complained about the "product," I wouldn't hold my breath for a refund and I wouldn't dare to refuse to pay.  In this business, there are providers and agencies that range from the dangerous, seedy types to the professional ones with integrity like you.  Unfortunately, we can't always tell which ones we're dealing with.  So the important thing is to maintain your safety and discretion.

I personally feel that he should have paid the fee for services rendered and dealt with the attempted theft separately.  

I am in no way defending or condoning her actions what she did was, without question WRONG.    
However…..      Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You can not control the actions of other people, only your own.  Whether someone else acts in a way that you believe is inappropriate or wrong, your reaction or response to it is all you really have control over and are responsible for.  

As far as;  “Do Unto Others…”  That is part of the reason I feel he should have paid her for her services.  He should have treated her in the way which he expects to be treated which is fairly and honestly.   Paying for service which he had already received was the fair and honest thing to do.

While I do not agree with the way the situation was handled,  I do not fault the original poster or doubt his intentions.  I am not questioning his honesty or integrity.    I have no doubt he intended to pay for the services.  He was in a difficult situation and he dealt with it in a way which he believed was appropriate.   I just don’t happen to agree.

BTW.  In the many (cough, cough) years I have been in and around the business I only remember one incident where I knew of a girl that stole something from a client.  We worked for the same service, she admitted it when confronted by the service and she was promptly fired.  So I optimistically believe that this is an anomaly and certainly not common practice.  

Discreetly,
Lauren

That about answers it right there!

YOu can lead a horse to water you can't make him drink, BUT. You can make him wish he had.

....I think youre somewhere closer to the real answer to the question than any  one else I have seen.

awarding a thief, a bad business woman, and a disrespectful person is not high on my list of things to do.

Dani

-- Modified on 9/19/2004 7:47:04 AM

...the issue is whether or not she deserved any money.

...I agree that this much is true. However, I know that I, thinking of myself as a true businesswoman, would not have expected him to give me anything. Now surely, had he let me keep it, I would not have set a word toward argument, but I would not think him wrong had he not.

The keyword to me is free, because he deserves compensation for his trouble. Not that he should stiff the agency, once again, because they delivered as promised-- a woman to which he is to have fun with. Well news flash-- it wasnt fun, she herself did not deliver what she promised. Everywhere else in life awards you something free, either this time or the next, well the next obviously isnt going to happen so his time with her should be awarded free then.

Its not totally free, because he still has to pay the agency, (which depending on where he was could be in the upwards of some 100s,which is all he should have to shell out!) but as with any other business, she is to be properely reprimanded, and in a proffesional court I see this as the only way...  

Now as I mentioned before-- everywhere else I go in life treats business just the same. For example my cat just had an operation, and they messed it up, twice, and they have gone to fix it-- for free, because they did not do what they promised, they fucked it up-- so now has to go back and mend it no charge. Like I said I have been to resturants and just the same, even when they just fuck your meal up or give you the wrong order, not if someone shortchanged you if anything happens, its free. Hell, I'll admit, I have even known (key words "have" and "known") drugdealers in my life, not that I like to admit it (I was young then,attracted to bad boys... long story) but even they've got that much business sense that if they shorted people, or otherwise wronged them somehow that it should be mended for free. I cant understand why the idea escapes so many people...

Am I just mean?

Its no different here because were not talking about a nail salon or a resturant or a hairshop or a tanning salon or any other business that offers a service... yes its ex, yes shes a person, but yes she is conductucting a business, and whether or not the business is legal isnt the matter here-- that doesnt mean that she herself should not be subject to business rules...

Sorry so long (as always, maybe I should stop apologizing, you all should expect this from me by now...heh)

Dani-Banani

...but as I see it Im standing alone on this one, though I cant for the life of me figure as to why.

Yes I know its different because she is a person, but she is still offering a product-- and anywhere you go in life you can take products back if not what you expected, for a refund, and as in any service you can recive it for free if not what you expected...

I dont and wont think he was wrong-- even where I in her position... I have taken too many business classes to fold over on this one.

Dani

-- Modified on 9/19/2004 8:32:42 AM

...someone can admit to seeing this from a business standpoint.
I do agree with you however on the fact that no one hardly follows the real business rules and guidelines in this proffesion-- yes especially agencies... but Im just trying to get people to notice that he was not wrong-- Im not saying in this particular situtation but in any and all!

And yes to my shame, Ive known drug dealers when I was younger (not cause I was buying them) and they do, some one them, offer you a discount or a freebie (no refunds though) if there is a problem... at least those with good business sense that know if you want repeat customers they are always to come first.

Dani

PS. At least I can be honest about the drug dealer, thing (dont hold the drug dealer thing against me though, I swore off bad boys when I hit 16;I had an epiphany about my life direction, and so grew out of that stage earlier than most girls had)....

I'm glad I was away from the computer for a day or so.  It
stopped me from wasting my time in the thread below.  It also
allowed me to see your post which states the case well and in a
very concise way.

fr

-- Modified on 9/19/2004 12:33:21 PM

It is interesting to see how some people responding to my original post have missed some of the more pertinent points. And after reading all of the replies in the thread, I know there is no right or wrong answer here.  It looks like about half the respondents think I shouldn't pay and the other half think I should have.  Just remember my original intention was always to pay at least the agency.  

Because of the rather tense situation in that room after catching her in the act of theft, I didn't think it very prudent to trust her to properly reimburse the agency.  She knows I am going to report it, so I was thinking she might tell the agency I stiffed her and I am lying to protect myself.  And sure enough she told the agency she didn't steal from me. So on that point I feel  I did the right thing in not leaving the money with her. Of course if I had left it, at least half of the people here would have flamed me for leaving it after she tried to rob me.

To the issue of doing my home work and reading the reviews.  I have used this agency several times over the last few years and he knows me when I call.  I felt I always had a good relationship with him.  And yes, I generally try to go with his girls that have been reviewed.  But in this case she was new and no reviews, but he vouched for her.  So based upon past experience and generally good reviews for all of his girls,  I felt it was a safe choice.

His reaction when I called was totally unexpected.  I have had minor problems in the past with other agencies and always the first words were always what can we do to make it right.  In one case they sent over a girl for free the next time I was in town and that was two months later.  I didn't necessarily expect a freebie here, but I didn't expect the very aggressive push for the money immediately.  And that really did turn me off big time. And he made it clear he didn't necessarily believe me.  And the girl said she didn't steal from me despite me catching her with my wallet and money in her hand.

Still, I was going to send him his money, but even that turns into a hassle. Other than putting cash in an envelope and sending it to a P.O. box with only his first name, there don't seem to be any options that protect my identity. It seems you have to provide full identification to send a money order and it can be traced back. The post office also requires identification from the recipient. And the truth is after seeing his nasty side I am reluctant to take a chance on a lot of cash making it through the mail.  If the envelope fails to show or arrives empty,  I am still on the hook.

Looking at all of this as a business, I know that between the agency and the girl, they both failed to provide the type of experience that I was paying for.  We all know that not every session turns out the way we would like and that is part of this hobby.  This one turned into the session from hell. I am still not sure how all of this will end.  A large part of it still rests with the attitude of the agency. I am trying to work with him, but I will not expose myself to any needless risk.

-- Modified on 9/19/2004 7:25:28 PM

....I will always agree with your original actions. And I will always look at this from a business standpoint. Now those that said they themselves wouldnt have taken it if offered for free I really respect that as well, because at least you are acknowledging my point within itself. You sai dthe key words yourself:

"Looking at all of this as a business, I know that between the agency and the girl, they both failed to provide the type of experience that I was paying for."

Good luck, and no more agencies for you friend!

Dani

A thought on sending him the money.  At least in California you can buy personal money orders at various convenience stores such as CircleK and 7 Eleven.  These money orders cost $1 and you would not have to fill out your information on the money order.  You also would have a receipt with the money order number on it  in case someone cashed it but claimed never to have recieved it.  If necessary you could trace it through the convenience store.  This is still not a perfect way to go but better than sending a postal money order where your id would be required.

-- Modified on 9/21/2004 11:25:16 AM

-- Modified on 9/21/2004 11:34:50 AM