This is one of the most interesting threads in a long time- a question that fascinates me.
I am reading with great interest in and among the flames.
Thanks HBX for making people think. Nice to know you are really into stimulating mind as well as body. I'm not sure if I have anything relevent to say, but I do like reading...
I have gotten really sick of all the elitism in this industry. When I came into this industry, I charged $250 an hour and was booked to the tilt. Then, I upped my rates to $400 and was still very busy but could work less to make still, very good money.
In time, I raised my rates when the economy sank because there were no bookings at all in the $$$ish range an hour and those callers kept trying to haggle me down to $ and were rude as all hell.
But I have gotten real tired of the elitism that higher rated providers are smarter. It doesn't matter what you charge per hour, you are still an escort but yes, there are levels of this industry that accentuate the more subtle nuances of what being a woman truly means.
When I offer specials or reduce my rates to appeal to the budgets of those who don't make as much, I get beaten to death on the boards. When I raise my rates to sky high levels, I don't get any flack.
To me, this makes no sense. You guys should want escorts who appreciate your company and your token and don't bleed you at the bank. If you like the service, then pay what you think it's worth and for me, my regulars have always done this and this is something that means a lot to me. But on the boards, ladies running specials get a lot of flack for offering really competitive rates.
I must admit when I experience a week of rude lowballers calling, I will raise my rates to unattainable levels so they'll stop calling and they do.
Do we get a better line of clientele because they pay more? Sometimes, but income level does not determine a man's worth and for me, it never mattered whether someone made 25 grand or 125 grand. I was appreciative of the experience and the gift, whatever the level.
It shouldn't matter what a lady charges per hour as long as she provides a high level of GFE service. If a lady charges $$ an hour and she treats you like a king, it makes more sense that you would tip her well and do everything to ensure repeat visits are in order.
Recently I had a guy tell me "I never pay more than I have to for anything." And this stuck with me. I think he said it partially as a joke but to me, it didn't sound good.
When I go to a restaurant, I tip 20-25% and I do the same thing at the nail salon. I always overpay if the service is incredible and I want to come back and see the same person. But what some guys will do is, tip nothing to a lower end provider and then figure they can save some money and then throw their next budgeted donation at another provider.
Say Mona charges $$ and she provides you great service. Say you have a blast. You tip her nothing. Why? Because you also want to see Jazmine who charges $$$$$ and so you are saving up for this. Personally, I feel this is immoral.
I remember one guy who was a doctor who gave me grief about a $300 rate (you know who you are). Later, I learned he paid $2300 to another provider like it was nothing. What does this say?
With educated escorts charging $24 grand for 2 days, high end providers charging 5 bills, $1500 an hour porn stars....let's face it. If we were all that well educated and brilliant, we wouldn't be doing this.
50 cent owns a mansion in Connecticut, a neighborhood of old money. He was a gang banger who became a rap star. You know, I'll be in the club...come gimme a hug...Somehow when I think of high end escorts claiming how classy and educated they are, I immediately think of 50 cents crib in CT and all his millions. I think of J. D. whatever of Harry Potter fame and all her millions. The rest of us are just laborers. True brilliance is the ability to create something of magnitude with purely a concept and good marketing.
Anna Nicole Smith created vast wealth for herself by using her sexuality to her advantage. And in my opinion, she didn't create anything but money.
There is something to be said for how people are creating wealth and what emotional investment, physical toil and brain power goes into the product.
Thanks for letting me ramble. Does this make sense?
-- Modified on 3/1/2004 9:46:21 PM
I always feel bad for the ladies who end up as victims of "rate bashing", especially, since as you said, you get it from both directions. If your rates are too high, guys will start bashing you; if too low, the other women start in.
One of my ATFs always seems embarrased when I tip her, but I do it cause she could easily be charging a lot more than she does, and I'd be paying the higher rate anyway. However, I'm probably in the minority in the "hobbyist" community, since many other guys would see her for the lower rate, and even still try to push for better service and going overtime.
Don't let it get to you - charge what you want.
What I don't want to do is eliminate myself from the palate of someone who needs me on other levels and who makes nothing for a living. Those women, like myself, who are in this for the "healing" element and knowing the good they have done for men in helping them heal from bad relationships or wives who have passed or recovering from trust issues or whatever...
For me, this isn't about taking and it never was. I'm often curious if a provider ran a "Pay me what you feel I'm worth" rate, what guys would pay.
I said this to one guy on the phone a long, long time ago and he replied, "Well, I only have $150". That wasn't what I asked him.
I think guys should pay providers what they feel their service is worth to them in comparison to other sessions they have had.
I'm sure men know in their head what they feel is quality treatment and true value.
How you treat others is an exact sign of how you perceive yourself. I perceive myself as always overcompensating because I want to know I gave my all and that people knew I appreciate them. I don't tip out high at a diner because I'm coming back or trying to impress someone. I do so because I want the waitress to know that all her java fillups at the crappy job were not in vain. I could literally be down the block when she realizes there is a $10 bill sitting there under the plate but what I left behind was something much more.
-- Modified on 3/1/2004 10:04:32 PM
unfortunately, you'd end up with every cheap son-of-a-bitch in town searching for the "Holy Grail" of sessions.
Some guys will always bargain, cause they're not happy unless they think they "won" something.
Some guys will only pay outrageous rates, cause they believe too much in "you get what you pay for", and are easily taken in by ladies who's only claim to fame is that they were bold enough to charge high rates. (Actually, there's a lady like this in Atlanta now. She advertises as "Barbie of Atlanta" as a $200/hr massage girl, and as "Angel of Beverly Hills" as a $1500/3hr date girl. My guess is that she's getting business under both identities.)
Part of the fun of your posts is that they OFTEN are rambles, and they sometimes DON'T make sense! 
However, I am sure the same could be said of my posts. :P
Maybe I have missed it, or maybe it is just San Diego, but I have never once seen someone badmouth someone on a DB for charging too little.
If that happens, I would certainly agree with you. As with any business, this is market driven, and if a gal needs to attract some new business by running a special, it would sound like sour grapes for people to complain. If you are good, the customers will come (pun intended)...end of story.
However, I certainly appreciate your attitude about giving the "poorer" of us hobbyists a chance. A provider can always be choosy about who she takes on in that scenario, saving those times for guys with some history of writing good reviews or being a good presence on the board or just who she "connects" with. God knows, I am not oe of the high rollers out there, so I know I appreciate specials. However, I completely agree with you that when a provider does this, if the guy has a good time, the tip should reflect it as well as her having made an exception for him. I try to tip as well as I can myself anyway, as I have had nothing but good experiences with the lovely ladies of TER.
But that's just me.
I read your post the whole way through. It was well written, not rambling at all and I found it very interesting.
Good for you!
Nadia x
there's absolutely no comparison between myself and 50 cent, Anna Nicole Smith, or J.K. Rowling. So much of accumulated wealth can be attributed to pure luck. To put any escort or any person for that matter who is *truly* educated in that same category is insulting. I busted my ass to finish graduate school last year, and I worked even harder to gain entrance law school. Does this make me better than anyone else? Absolutely not, but my education has given me opportunities that I would have not had otherwise. People debate whether or not education is important anymore. That debate doesn't matter to me, because the education I've earned is important to *me*. 50 cent could lose everything in a minute. I will *always* have my education. You also wrote that if we were *that* brilliant and well educated we wouldn't be doing this. By that statement, you're making the assumption you know every single reason why women work as escorts. Women work as providers for numerous reasons. It doesn't make them any less smart, well educated, classy, vivacious, caring, or (insert other adjective).
People who are well educated often think they are superior to everyone else but half the entrepreneurs or millionaires never finished college or even high school for that matter. It takes something truly unique -- drive, ambition and creativity to make 60 million dollars when hey did not have the advantages of higher education. Being a lawyer doesn't make you brilliant. Women work as providers because the money is good and they can control their own destiny and their time.
To quote you:
"To put any escort or any person for that matter who is *truly* educated in that same category is insulting."
No, I'm saying, you are inferior to 50 cent. You have an education and you still can't get ahead. 50 cent could lose everything in a minute? Yeah, well so could Madonna. I'd rather be Madonna or 50 Cent than a person with a college degree who can't get a job.
And I never said *anything* about being an attorney. Again, you've made more assumptions. That's my absolute last reason for attending law school. Walk a mile in my shoes, and then you're more than welcome to make more assumptions about why *I* work as a provider and what it takes to be truly successful. Life's about choices young lady. Don't attempt to belittle me, because you've made different ones than myself. It will *never* work.
I once met an investment banker during the go-go 90s. She did not need to work as a provider but she had her reasons for doing so. Can say the same about several other women who I have met. The point is that providers have a variety of reasons for being in the business that they are in, sometimes the need for cash is not one of them. Also, a woman being highly educated does not make her an elitist, to make such a charge without justification is not fair.
I did not belittle you. I'm saying that education doesn't guarantee you anything in life. We all make our choices and follow our dreams.
Law was not a subject I enjoyed in college so I never had any dreams of working in that field. My dream was to be a film producer with an office in LA and that is something I acheived, but not on any grand level. I produced a few indie film and one animation and didn't find much profit in the industry and foudn the industry pretty "closed" so after 4 years of working in editorial freelance and film behind the scenes, I've now moved on to another field.
"Your post reeks of childish envy." ?? We are two different people with different goals so I don't quite understand that quip.
We all bust our butts at one thing or another. Some on businesses. Some on raising children. Some on professional status. I take my hat off to people who start their own businesses from nothing, with no education, self taught, hungry and hardworking. There are a lot of people with great educations who are unemployed so education is certainly no guarantee of financial success. What I'm saying is that there are some novel and creative ways to make money. True geniuses find them. Henry Ford is a genius. So is the dude that created McDonalds.
You don't have to be a genius to get a degree from college. I'm not saying you don't have drive and ambition, because I'm sure you do. I'm saying college isn't a creative environment designed to churn out entrepreneurs. Come visit me in my office and you will know how much work I put into my business for the last 4 years. I didn't complete college and I don't want to. My time and effort goes into supporting 4 kids and saving for their benefit so they can choose to go to college or not do so. I will leave that up to them.
My whole life isn't centered around my education, grad school or advanced degrees. That isn't the way my brain works. I just sign a lease, setup shop, plop down my roladex and go to work.
Heather, I saw your comment about saving up for your kid's college funds, but it was up to them to choose to go.
I hear other parents say they don't care what career their children choose, or whether they even go to college or not, and that has always been hard for me to understand.
It's a definite correlation that a college education opens more doors and gives higher lifetime earnings...same principle extending to postgraduate degrees as well.
So, why wouldn't a parent urge their child in the direction of higher education if at all possible?
Wouldn't that be better than accepting the kid's comment of, "Mom, I'm going to work at McDonalds after high school graduation and just hang out with my friends." And the parent saying, "Yes, son, that's fine--do whatever that makes you happy and fulfilled." (extreme example but you get my point.)
McDonalds is not the alternative I'm envisioning. You've got to understand, most of the men and women I know are self made. I don't know any millionaires who've made their wealth working for someone else in a 9-5 job. The system is designed so you can't get ahead. Corporate america will get you for as little as it can to keep you a worker bee.
The true wealth in this country is either old money, self made/entrepreneurs or investment oriented/appreciated assets. I have seen both sides of the street. Those who go to college, get a corporate job (I was one of those). Those who start their own businesses, do the research and bust their butt to build a reputation in their industry. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with getting a college degree and then starting your own business but if you factor in the time it takes to attain a batchelors, grad school and law degree, I would say someone is well into her 30's or 40's. Youth has it's advantages.
In the entertainment industry, if you try to enter the FX or the screenwriting industry or acting at 45, that's too late. Entertainment is a youth oriented field.
An education is pricy. The job market is highly competitive. Many well educated people are jobless due to the sheer lack of the number of jobs. And then there's the school loans/tab for an education. Take all that money and open your own business. The potential for success is greater, especially if you do have some background working for a few self made millionaires -- know who your competition ar, devise special abilities/services or a unique spin on a product.
For me, a college education gave me that corporate job and I found it unfulfilling, boring, too much office politics, dealing with other people's egos, commutes from hell (4 hours a day rt). Being self employed in any industry has it's advantages. Four year colleges have yet to create a program on entrepreneurship. The last thing they want to do is churn out free thinkers to compete with the top entrepreneurs in the land. College is designed to churn out mice who will pick up cheese and follow the maze.
First off, we do what we do because we are who we are. We are the consumers and we are diverse and we don't all think alike and we are sweet, and ass holes, and rich and poor and....well you get the idea. Or do you?
Sometimes it's just the game of it all. Look HB, you've been all over the place with you hobby personna. You are a regular gal, you are a porn star wanna be, you are in Vegas, you are in LA, you are low ball you are high end, you are an escort you are in real estate, you retire you return.
If the bitching comes with the territory take it or leave it. Do you think that you are going to stop some guy from asking for a discount by this post?
For the most part we don't want you for your minds. Some of us want you to be able to stand erect and talk about the conditions in Zambia and others just want you to lay on your back and spread you legs and shut up. But MOSTLY we want sex and a fantasy. If you are good at it we will be back. If you yak and yak we probably won't. If you just lay there we probably won't. If you cash and dash....well.
Bottom line is you've got to come up with something that works for you. Play with your price if you like, change your hair color if you like, change your boob size if you like, write and write prose on you site if you like. But you have chosen a service business that is illegal (when you are an escort) and as in all service businesses you are never going to please everybody.
Just think about this a minute. $400 for something that is over in just one hour and which can be purchased elsewhere for $200 and for $2000. We guys are nuts. Do you have what it takes to charge $2000? The Donald thanks you, the masses bitch. Are you so benevelant as to charge $100? The masses thank you, the Donald passes. Guess what? That's life.
Like he said i also have been following you for years. You go from one extreme to another first you are the average escort then all of a sudden you are a producer your rates always change you are all over the board.
you do not return e mails or phone calls i tried contacting you not too long ago.
As far as the DR that gave you the grief unfortunatly he thought some one else was worth more maybe they were better looking and leaner than you. Or maybe they provided services you don't.
You seem to ramble about many things it apears that you only care about your self. By your posts and by speaking with you on the phone.
some people are willing to pay more for A nice Mercedes Benz than for a Ford Taurus.
I think you are only hurting your self in the end by these rambling posts
Maybe you should go back to banking in bean town.
Charging more per hour doesn't make you a Mercedes Benz. So you are saying that a nice lady who charges $150 an hour is a Yugo. Please. It's all about the quality of service and yes, there are some services I do not provide.
I do return calls promptly. I do not accept ones that are blocked.
I am not hurting myself by expressing my concerns about attitudes. By saying that I think elitism should stop and that low rates shouldn't command flack on boards doesn't mean I'm a selfish individual. Personally, I don't care whether a man makes 15 grand a year or 10 million. I don't judge people on what they make, what they spend or what they drive.
Some people that drive Benz's have nothing in the bank and are in debt up to their ears. From my work in trust and estates I can tell you that you would never know a millionaire by looking at their shoes. Wealthy people don't need to flaunt their money. They are understated.
Keep in mind, you can't take it with you. Material possessions mean nothing.
eom
"Keep in mind, you can't take it with you. Material possessions mean nothing."
Exactly, which is why people like InterestingWoman and myself stay in school. Some people believe that there is something to be said for higher education and self-fulfillment in that realm. No, we are not all meant to be academics, but some of us enjoy intellectual stimulation as well as other...forms.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with a service provider choosing her price for any factor; if there is a demand for what she is supplying, whether that is on the basis of her hair color, boobs, IQ, college degree, or services. That is up to the individual (a crash course in supply and demand might be beneficial ;P for some) and a variety of factors: how many clients she feels she needs, if this is her only source of income, bills, etc.Because of this, you may have an excellent provider who does not charge very high rates and this does not make her any less of a person. I think it is the provider's own problem if she considers herself not worthy, or thinks others will think she isn't, just because she doesn't set out to be the Bentley of the escort world.
It is a free market and we all find our niche eventually and hopefully we are all of sound mind to realize that "material possessions mean nothing", so why worry about what others are doing if you are making your ends meet and running your business the way you want to? So, whatever floats your boat, why the fuss? So what if you think people are on a high horse for charging what they do. Do you know how successful they are when all is said and done? Some are, some aren't; some business strategies work, some don't.
I wanted to appologize for jumping down your throat and saying you were inferior to 50 cent. I was way out of line there but I do know quite a few people that are eternal scholars and cease "living" their lives. Education becomes some crutch to not go out and take some risks and live your life. My aunt married a rich doctor and went to school her whole life obtained doubled degrees and multiple PhD's. She did eventually get a really good job but for the bulk of her life she was an intellectual armpiece for a status loving physician.
Because of the internet and sites like this, the escorting business is the only one I am aware of where the service providers know the exact fee charged by competitors and when it changes, ie. specials or permanent reductions. That's an advantage for clients to manipulate and stretch their dollars, but a disadvantage to those like yourself. No one asks for a discount from their doctor, lawyer, fitness trainer, plumber, even lawn mower. Amazing the expectations and lack of respect I continually read on this and other boards.
Guess I am in a minority. I am very selective and I tend to be overly generous. I avoid discounting providers and lower fee women...do not want to see anyone who is high volume, seeking to be a regular with someone equally selective. I can't pay enough given the alternates available to married men and how much some wonderful providers have given of themselves to me. I appreciate who they are, how hard they work, and the special talents they have perfected to make me feel special.
Like any business, marketing is key. Stay with a plan that you are most comfortable with and ignore what others may say. You are the one who has to be happy at the end of the day no the critics.
Heather, doesn't your point boil down to this: why should this business/profession be treated any different from any other? Example: shrinks regularly set rates with their patients as part of their therapy -- sometimes its more than the standard, sometimes less. Why should you be different?
Heather, although I agree with much of what you've said, it's up to you to set your rates. It's not becoming to bash other providers' rates. Poor J.K. Rowlings who, by chance, became famous but not by poor luck. She is an incredibly intelligent, gifted writer whose work got noticed and then published. As for Anna Nicole Smith -- well, what can I say, she may be ignorant on many levels but she knew what she was doing, albeit pretty annoying at times.
I think you just wanted to vent, and that's okay with me.
Hugs,
Ciara
1. Work on making yourself as compelling as you can and they will beat a path to your door. Some do it on looks alone, others on performance, and still others on uniqueness.
2. You might want to go easier on the angry posts (unless you're looking to attract those who prefer to frequent the Dommes). A lot of the "nice" or "generous" guys you seem to be searching for might be put off by the negative vibe your posts tend to give off.
3. Charge what you want. If they call, it's the right price. If it's not, the volume of calls will drop. Find your own sweet spot, and stick with it until the market changes.
4. Although there are a few "carriage class" types here with unlimited financial resources, most of us dig deep into our discretionary income to feed our hobbyist impulses so don't judge us all TOO harshly. I agree that those who beat you down a C Note while bragging about spending $$$$ on others are idiots, but there will always be rotten apples in every bunch.
I am not having any trouble with my business. I support 6 people and have an office so I would say I'm doing very well. And I guess you can say, don't fix it if it ain't broke. But you aren't "getting" me here. You keep talking about money and I'm talking about something deeper. It isn't about having people beat a path to my door. It's about letting those who need you most on an emotional level, know you are there for them. A large majority of my appointments aren't erotic, at all. They are just talking, emotional support, affection and other non-erotic necessities that men need to feel loved. We all need love and affection, even if for a few hours.
Say someone is really lonely and sitting at home wanting to see a particular lady and they really are having a hard time financially, say their wife just died. Should you reject them and turn your back on them because what they have isn't enough to make your car payment? I think not. I do believe in karma and all things even out in the end.
That is what I'm saying by elite attitudes. If you think men see escorts simply to be physical, I would say you aren't exactly accurate. I am quite content with being a Huyndai or a Yugo or even a '72 Pinto for that matter. I am not 25, nor a model nor a hardbody. I do not expect any of my clients to be Rockefeller or Fabio and that's where the rate thing comes in.
I guess it's like Average Joe vs. the Other Guys. Let's put the $$-$$ 1/2 clients in one room. Put the $$$-$$$$ and up clients in another. And still the $$$$$ hourly clients in a 3rd room.
Now, let's ask the higher enders why those choose to pay more and you will get a few answers.
a. because I can
b. because I don't want to see the same ladies the lower end guys see
c. because I'm picky/selective
d. because I wish to see ladies who see fewer men, hence less risk.
As the $$ish clients why they won't pay more
a. because I ain't got it.
b. "because women suck and I'm giving them as little as possible. hell, i'll stay 3 hours if I can get a bitch dumb enough".
c. because I lost my job and times are tough.
d. because I'm content with the providers I'm meeting in this range. why pay more?
Now ask the $$$ guys...
a. seems to be the median so I figure I can get a fair sampling of good providers.
b. budget 300 per and don't go higher
c. i'm not into longer sessions; i only have an hour.
Now, are you saying that rich clients that pay more are better looking, in better shape and more demanding of the looks of a provider? According to the things you guys just posted, you make it sounds like guys who seek Benz's are Benz's themselves. Are you a Benz?
This is one of the most interesting threads in a long time- a question that fascinates me.
I am reading with great interest in and among the flames.
Thanks HBX for making people think. Nice to know you are really into stimulating mind as well as body. I'm not sure if I have anything relevent to say, but I do like reading...
I think that most of the lower end guys are there because they don't have a lot of $$$ although I grant you that there are those who are stingy and won't spend the money they do have plenty of...
I would venture a guess that more upper income types ARE better looking as they can afford gym memberships, better medical care, and all those metrosexual accessories that help improve their appearance (spas, long vacations in tropical places don't hurt either). If they come from old money, they probably attracted some knockout types to breed with their parent (witness Steve Tyler from Aerosmith who is NOT a handsome man, but bore several gorgeous children since she was a model... I'm sure a similar scenario plays out in many carriage class circles).
As for the higher income types, it is either looks or a name (or both) that attracts the "whales" to steal a Vegas term. Porn stars or Centerfolds see their perceived value rise as do those knockouts that would put many models to shame. Combine with an anything goes PSE attitude and they beat a path to her door.
I'm not a Benz myself, as I consider myself in the middle class of those in this hobby as I can afford to go for 2 hr. meetings for the added intimacy and conversation, but I can't afford to play in the bigs and go for an overnight or an hour with a "name".
I agree that the appeal of the hobby is not just the physical, as I also appreciate the spiritual boost that the meetings provide. I agree with your attitude towards Karma, and hope that all of MY good deeds are getting deposited in an account somewhere and noted.
For your first two test questions I would say that the correct answer from most men would be between a. and c.
Your third question, doesn't have the best answer, which I would say would be that --- d. the average combined appearance and performance cumulative values tend to hit the 8's or better at this range as the "market" has set the price they get as the "right" price.
Then again this is all IMHO. Good luck in your search for enlightenment..........
WTF is a "carriage class"?
-- Modified on 3/2/2004 7:04:56 PM
Carriage Class is a label here in NJ for those that make their income off of stocks and investments (250,000+ of income at least). They tend to shop at The Mall at Short Hills here in NJ or Rodeo Drive in CA. The name comes from the old 19th century ornate horse drawn carriages that used to ferry the rich around.
These are the people paying $2000 for Versace dresses and $120000 for limited edition cars.......
You're taking different market conditions way too personally. I sell products, and I can tell you...if I charge $1 for a product, it'll sell to a certain customer. If I sell the SAME EXACT product for $5 - it'll sell to a different customer! And that same customer will buy it for $5, but not for $1!
Why does someone buy a Ferrari? Yes, because he likes the car, the handling, power, etc. But a lot of it for spending $300,000 on a car is because he can have it and few others can! If you took that same Ferrari, priced it at $30,000 - yes you'd sell a lot more, but the customer who would buy it for $300,000 may pass at $30k!
Of course, you have to decide how much you want to work, what types of customers you want, etc. And if you want a broader range of customers, you have to figure out a way to advertise to both without devaluing the price to a higher end customer. In the products I sell, I sell them for different prices to different customers, but I make certain the guy who's paying $5 doesn't realize it's being sold for $1 out the back door. In the meanwhile, I have 100,000 of them at $.25 cost - I'm just trying to sell as many as I can, for the most I can! But it's very hard at times to keep them seperate - I have to make certain I advertise them under different brand names, in different markets, etc.
The fun part of business - it has nothing to do with education, just marketing.