I really don't know much of anything about Ted Koppel other that his ratings are in the toilet. I'm not sure if that reflects on his bias, but I suspect so.
That our foreign policy has us supporting dictators is nothing new, we have and do support several when they serve our interest. Pictures of Rumsfeld with Hussein in the 80's do not current policy make.
The defense of our country and the defeat of radical Islamic terrorism is going to be very pricy. I'm aware of that, but we, as Americans have always been willing to pay the tab whether it be money or blood.
I'm not sure of the awakening of which you speak, if it is our lack of security from terrorism and the Islamic worlds hatred of us it was no surprise to me.
It seems I may have misunderstood your loyalty, please excuse my sarcasm.
-- Modified on 4/2/2003 5:27:42 PM
I've put this on the general board because......well just because. I wish I was smart enough to have thought this up. I love it.
THE PEACE PLAN
1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Marshal Petain and the rest of them good old boys. We will never "interfere" again.
2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, France, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.
4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days in America unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.
5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "F" and it's back home, baby.
6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling for oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.
7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.
8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any, anyway.
9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
This has been posted amongst the military community (I got it from an Air Force buddy). I hesitated to post it until I saw your post. Thanks.
Peace Activist Etiquette
With all of this talk of impending war, many of us will encounter "Peace Activists" who will try and convince us that we must refrain from retaliating against the ones who terrorized us all on September 11, 2001, and those who support terror.
These activists may be alone or in a gathering.....most of us don't know how to react to them. When you come upon one of these people, or one of their rallies, here are the proper rules of etiquette:
1. Listen politely while this person explains their views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look very interested in their ideas. They will tell you how revenge is immoral, and that by attacking the people who did this to us, we will only bring on more violence. They will probably use many arguments, ranging from political to religious to humanitarian.
2. In the middle of their remarks, without any warning, punch them in the nose.
3. When the person gets up off of the ground, they will be very angry and they may try to hit you, so be careful.
4. Very quickly and calmly remind the person that violence only brings about more violence and remind them of their stand on this matter. Tell them if they are really committed to a nonviolent approach to undeserved attacks, they will turn the other cheek and negotiate a solution. Tell them they must lead by example if they really believe what they are saying.
5. Most of them will think for a moment and then agree that you are correct.
6. As soon as they do that, hit them again. Only this time hit them much harder. Square in the nose.
7. Repeat steps 2-5 until the desired results are obtained and the idiot realizes how stupid of an argument he/she is making.
8. There is no difference in an individual attacking an unsuspecting victim or a group of terrorists attacking a nation of people. It is unacceptable and must be dealt with. Perhaps at a high cost.
We owe our military a huge debt for what they are about to do for us and our children. We must support them and our leaders at times like these. We have no choice. We either strike back, VERY HARD, or we will keep getting hit in the nose.
Lesson over, class dismissed.
Now that we are in it we have to kick ass, the faster and harder the better. I'm not convinced it was a good idea or justified to go in, though. I have never heard evidence that Saddam's guys were involved in 9/11.
Another analogy:
You're at a rock concert with no seats, just a big area to stand, with thousands of other people. Many of them have bad mouthed you before and have even thrown stuff at you. Somebody sucker punches you and runs away. You can't catch him. But you see another guy who you beat up a couple of years ago because you caught him stealing a friend's lunch money. You know he hates you and he's a theiving weasel and he picks on little kids. Is it OK to go over and slit his throat because someone else who hates you punched you? I mean, your community would be better off without him, but is it really justified? Or even wise if slitting the weasel's throat makes most of the room hate you more?
As a "peace activist", I would love you to try this. It'll mean one more felon who can't vote. Since you don't seem to know the difference between Saudi Arabia (the country that funded and staffed the 9/11 attacks) and Iraq (the country hated by the fundimentalists who did the 9/11 attacks), we'll benefit from the lack of your uniformed vote.
Do you just imagine these claims you make or are these the claims that the "peace anarchists" pump into your head?
I know it's too much to ask of you to get your facts straight prior to posting due to the fantasy land you and your pals live in.
Go right ahead and post your evidence of Iraq working with the 9/11 terrorists. I'd love to post some, but there isn't any.
Bin Laden is a Saudi. 9 of the 13 hijackers were Saudi. Saudis donated the money to Al Queda to pay for the attacks. None of the hijackers were Iraqi. Saddam provided no funding to Al Queda. If Bush had been able to find any link between Saddam and 9/11, we'd have immediately invaded with that link as diplomatic cover.
Yeah, recently some terrorist groups are threatening to attack the US because of Iraq, but only after we invaded.
With Bush using 9/11 as every 5th word when he talks about Iraq, it's not suprising that a lot of people believe Iraq was involved in 9/11, even though they weren't.
-- Modified on 4/2/2003 1:31:59 PM
I think you both will have better information when this conflict has gone from a shooting war to a thorough fact gathering operation. There is alread incidental information about "Al-Qaeda" associated splinter groups from the Northern Region of Iraq, although there is currently no smoking gun.
HPG
N. Iraq is under the control of the Kurds. Saddam's been unable to control the area since our no-fly zone was set up.
I am not the one pulling half truths out of my arse. Therefore I'll let you cite your sources.
19 hijackers total, unless you are of the belief that one or more of the flights that were hijacked on 9/11 were remote controlled, is that it? Are you a conspiracy theorist?
Anyway 15 were from Saudi Arabia, 2 United Arab Emirates, and 1 each from Lebanon and Egypt.
Okay so which of these decided to ignore UN resolution?
Your original justification was the 9/11 attacks. Now you're sying it's UN resolutions. Going to move on to "democracy in Iraq" next, or gassing his own people?
Actually, foo, I believe we're fighting so that Bechtel and Halliburton can "reconstruct" Iraq.
Actually, you didn't comprehend my first response to you.
This whole thread started as an innocent joke and you came into it like a typical "peace anarchist", devoid any sense of humour, and trying to twist the meaning of it to make sense to you.
You haven't answered my questions or cited any facts so move on.
I think you'll find I started responding in a somewhat lighthearted way to someone who was advocating violence against people like me. Considering there has actually been violence against people like me, I don't exactly feel like laughing out loud about it.
You then proceeded to claim I had my facts wrong, but you continue to be unable or unwilling to say which ones are wrong. Kinda hard for me to show supporting evidence when you won't say what you think is wrong. (Yeah, I incorrectly understaded the number of Saudis that were the 9/11 hijackers, but 4 more Saudis just makes my point stronger)
And now, you're accusing me of hijacking a comical thread, when you've been attacking me since my first post in it. You'll notice I haven't attacked you, but according to you I'm an lying anarchist with no sense of humor, who believes in stupid conspiracy theories.
Twisting everything you read, hear, say or write into some nonsensical fantasy, sidestepping the issue at hand, crying FOUL I was ATTACKED poor poor pitiful me.
Now, I must move on as my ADD has kicked in and I need to find a more interesting topic.
GoodDay .........
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
Aldous Huxley
Another attack, another claim that I'm wrong without specifics.
As a student, and now, temporarily an advocate for the students, I request that the 'little evil Bush' retract the fifth policy. As many of you university alums know - Skipping classes and going an extra semester (maybe even two) are all part of college life. To eliminate those that fall under these two categories would wipe out the whole college population! We'll be left to cope along with the caribou! Even more horrifying to men of all ages, sizes, and color - current filming of "College Girls Gone Wild" will be forced to a halt. Then what's our country to do?
AliyannaLee, too bad you aren't based out of San Diego! As for the posts...well said. Those of you that don't get it, never will.
This is also a response to Fortitude ... obviously, you two have no clue what this war is all about, and who are the people behind it. Most of the information is all out, if one looks.
Meanwhile, for you two, I have something from Oscar Wilde:
"I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit. Touch it, and the bloom is gone."
Oh please don't tell us what this war is about.
Before you do consider this:
For thousands the world is a freak show, the images flicker past and disappear, the impressions remain flat and disconnected in the soul. Thus, they are easily led by the opinions of others, are willing to let their impressions be reordered, rearranged, and reevaluated.
Goethe.
Pardon me if I don't subscribe to every fringe lunatic website or accept all of your Conspiracy Theory du jour's.
For you its ignorance, to me its your gullibility and a deep hatred of America.
BTW, who do you consider the greater evil in the world, George W. Bush or Saddam Hussein?
Well well my good Man Mr. Briibite! Since when Tedd Koppel and Nightline became "fringe lunatic????"
Meanwhile, I love America, and have never tried to abuse our resources, or undermine the interest of our nation for any cause.
When you used the term evil, you need to realize that, Saddam is a tyrant who has blood of over a million on his hand. I cringe when I see his pictures with Rumsfeld. Bush, is not an evil man at all. I think he has been given misinformation.
Meanwhile, get your calculator out, find out how much we are spending on this war, and how much is our total Homeland Security Budget. Then, use your other tool, what is on the upper side of your body, it is called brain. Do some divisions. There is your answer.
This is the greatest country ever created, and it will remain so. For the first time in 3 decades, we are going through serious awakening. We should be proud of it.
I really don't know much of anything about Ted Koppel other that his ratings are in the toilet. I'm not sure if that reflects on his bias, but I suspect so.
That our foreign policy has us supporting dictators is nothing new, we have and do support several when they serve our interest. Pictures of Rumsfeld with Hussein in the 80's do not current policy make.
The defense of our country and the defeat of radical Islamic terrorism is going to be very pricy. I'm aware of that, but we, as Americans have always been willing to pay the tab whether it be money or blood.
I'm not sure of the awakening of which you speak, if it is our lack of security from terrorism and the Islamic worlds hatred of us it was no surprise to me.
It seems I may have misunderstood your loyalty, please excuse my sarcasm.
-- Modified on 4/2/2003 5:27:42 PM
Bribite, clearly, you are intelligent, wise, but sometimes you go to the extremes, and become "alien" to me! Don't hang out with the members of John Birch Society, or Trent Lott! You are better than that!
The "awakening" has everything to do with the famous speech of President/General Eisnehauer, at the end of his terms, about "you know what".
Here is a bet for you: If we caught Saddam, you win a penny from me ... IF Saddam got away, you owe me 100 Pennies! And I want it in small denominations, with non-sequential numbers.
Saddam, with billions at his disposal, roaming and freelancing, to me, is FAR FAR more dangerous.
Let's start a new thread, otherwise, it will be you and I on reading this!
I've just read the speech, and it calls our attention to many things. I'm still not clear on your point. I think I understand what you are getting at but you seem somewhat cryptic.
I am a political independent with center right conservative leanings, not a Bircher or a Lott fan.
Will you need to personally see and touch Saddam's corpse, or will you accept television images?
Are you insinuating that the Bush administration would let him escape? Or that regime change is not an issue?
Bribite,
Here is the part from Eisnehauer's speech I was referring to. This is a classic:
===
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
===
I was kidding you to have referred to as a Bircher or Lott fan! You are highly intelligent, and honest, can't we have a little fun here?!!!
Regarding Bush and Saddam, if Tenet/CIA claim Saddam is dead, I accept that. I believe the reason for this attack is not to capture Saddam. Rather justify why our military budget, is more than 12 times that of United Kingdom. And when you have a big screw driver, all problems look like a screw!!!
If the objective is to remove Saddam at a cost of $2B/day, I would give $1B to CIA, with focus on this mission. It is a lot cheaper. I have travelled parts of the Middle East [Jerusalem, Beirut, Baghdad,Istanbul, and Tehran] as a business executive, and always felt CIA was well placed in the region.
In both Tehran, and Istanbul, I found some of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. In Tehran, it was during the time of Shah, and that was one heck of city to have fun. Restaurants and discoteques open all night, streets filled with BMWs and Mercedes', the crowd partying. Then, all showing up for work at 9AM. It was a city of endless energies. That was 1975. We had a huge operation in Iran those days [No, it was not EDS and Perrot!]
Tehran's red-light district was massive!
Well, if the essence of this board was not privacy, I would have invited you to my favorite restaurant in Westwood when I visit LA [Monty's, at the top of one the skyscrapers], we had a dinner, and a few Martinis!
-- Modified on 4/2/2003 8:13:35 PM
QA,
Although I understand your concerns as to unwarranted influence from the military-industrial complex, I don't agree that it currently exists.
Republican Presidents have always favored a strong defense and Democratic Presidents have, since Carter attempted to dismantle it.
If the military would have been maintained at the status Carter left it in 1980, we may well still be mired in the cold war with the USSR. Reagan's focus on military spending caused the USSR to implode under the economic strain of competing. And to me, that was a very good thing. It left the US as the only world superpower and I believe a benevolent force for good.
Along comes Clinton and the military is gutted again. Military spending was so thin that many Military families were eligible for food stamps. Personally, a strong defense is what I expect most from my country, and sometimes that requires enforcing our will overseas.
Saddam was slapped down in the first Gulf War and agreed to UN provisions in order to retain power. He did not comply and over 12 years later he, his regime and the threat of use of WMD he currently possesses and was attempting to attain will be removed. Even if the majority of the UN Security Council balked. Let us not forget that W attained a larger UN Member backing that did HW. (Even if not in economic assistance.)
I would totally agree that the use of CIA operatives (sharpshooters) would have been an outstanding idea. Unfortunately, by current US law it would have been illegal. Of course Bush could rescind Ford's Executive Order, but imagine the wrath from Hollywood (lol).
On a lighter note, I had the pleasure to visit Beirut several times in the early 70's. It was paradise, far more pleasurable than my visits to the the French Rivera. I also agree that mid-eastern women are stunning and at that time very uninhibited lovers. Of course that was before they were forced to wear those damn black sheets over their heads!
-- Modified on 4/3/2003 1:07:24 PM
While Bush promised a big raise in military pay, it hasn't materialized. Increased millitary spending has gone into weapons systems, not payroll.
(Btw, I think Clinton was right to cut back on military spending, since we didn't have the USSR to face anymore. Don't believe that we needed to cut as far as he did, but we don't need as large a military anymore)
Those weapon systems have enabled our military to surgically destroy Saddam regime with minimal colateral damage. Not to mention doing it with a much smaller force than in GW1.
I am not privy to military salaries, where did you get your information on their current wages? It seems to me to be just a kneejerk reaction to my post. I haven't seen any reports of food stamps in the military in two years.
I don't have it handy anymore, but an analysis of Bush's first budget. Salaries did go up by a small ammount, but not enough to make food-stamp using soldiers no longer need them.
Also, a friend was discharged last year, and if she had a child she would have required food stamps. She and her husband (also a soldier) were barely making ends meet living quite a frugal life.
And the weapons systems I'm talking about are the new ones in development, not the ones we're currently using.
Since we have no facts, I will leave the salary issue alone.
But, if we can prosecute a war with the precision we have seen with this generation of military technology. With this unbelievably low casualty rate. Just imagine what will be coming.
I believe that the US is the greatest force for good on the planet, the most benevolent country in the history of the world and I'm very glad that we are the ones with this technology. I say money well spent.
With today's news of the Iraqi people joining the coalition forces against Saddam and the finding of at least Mustard Gas just south of Baghdad, are your opinions changing?
All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.
The problem with this part of your plan(among many), the US economy would suffer greatly as a result. Illegals who actually pay taxes in the US, add up to billions flowing in to the Treasury every year. Plus they perform labor that the "average" American doesn't want to do. IOW they contribute more to our society than they take out of it in health care services and other services.
There was a 20 year old illegal immigrant, who didn't live too far from me, that died last week. He was a US Marine fighting for our country in Iraq. I saw the local news footage of his grieving parents. You want to send his corpse back to Mexico for burial?
And who exactly(local police, FBI, the local school marm?) is going to round up the millions of illegals scattered across the country? Not with my tax dollars Skippy.
I live 45 miles north of the Mexican border in CA, and there are illegals readily available to work in every town between here and there. If you don't think that Bush and Vicente Fox(he's Mexico's President in case you didn't know) aren't in bed on this illegal immigrant issue, guess again. Bush wants the Hispanic vote in this country in a big way, and Mexican American's in particular, are very sensitive to the treatment and disposition of Mexican illegals who come to the US to work, and send some money back to their relatives in Mexico. MfSD.
-- Modified on 4/2/2003 6:18:51 AM
Correction:
That immigrant Marine was a legitimate, green card carrying legal! BTW, he was scheduled to be sworn in as an American Citizen in two weeks.
Gob Bless Him!
Although I recognize (as I'm sure you do) that this was written as satire. I somewhat agree with you on the immigration issue. However, the illegal part of it is out of hand and we have every right to ask our leaders to protect our borders. When my grandfather served in the US Army in France in WWI, he wasn't yet a US Citizen, but there was nobody in the Country who was more patriotic than he! He raised 8 sons who all proudly served in WWII.
What America needs is to drop the hyphens! We should welcome those who come here to become Americans. Learn the language and become assets to this great nation, as I agree many do.
MfSD, damn, that's two things we kind of agree on!
I erred, the Marine (Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez) that I was referring to was from Guatemala, not Mexico, and he was an illegal immigrant when he entered the US in the mid 1990s, but did get permanent US residence status, before joining the Corps. My understanding is he will be granted US citizenship posthumously and returned to Guatemala for burial.
The Marine that I mentioned who lived near me(Lance Cpl. Jesus Suarez) immigrated to the US from Mexico, with his father in the late 1990s. His father became a citizen, but the exact disposition of Suarez's citizenship status has not been revealed to my knowledge. His father has stated publicly that he will not seek posthumous US citizenship for his brave son. Jesus Suarez did have a son that was born in the US. MfSD.
-- Modified on 4/2/2003 11:47:05 AM
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I heard this morning on Fox News that both have been given US Citizenship status posthumously. And that there is a Bill in Congress to award Citizenship to all "legal alliens" in military service after two years of active duty.
I applaud it.
I doubt you`re correct in saying the illegal aliens contribute more than they take out. If it turns out I`m wrong I`ll stand corrected but I`d like to see your evidence. Just be sure to take a long hard look at Calif. schools and hospitals. I`m not blameing them for all of this states troubles but surely they are a huge burden.
Well done! Agree with all but the last item....I have been to charm school, it didnt work:}