I've had several "favorite ladies--FLs" although I do not use the term ATF because there can only be one of those and until I stop this hobby, there is always the possibility that that could change.
Regarding my FLs, I've stopped seeing some of them because they have either moved away (Ellie-she did move back a few months ago), left the bizz (Misty Bay, Gabby, Missy K--she is back again now) or level of service or performance dropped off (no names here LOL). Some have raised their rates above my budget (again, no names).
Been mulling over some thoughts (now that my football team has no realistic chance at advancing in the playoffs, I have a lot mroe free time!)
When one reads reviews, the ATF label is used often. Some use it more liberally than others, and can have multiple ATFs. Some are 'serial' ATF designators, with each new girl attaining the monikor. The following question goes to those men who have seen their ATF more than once:
When do you _choose_ to stop seeing your ATF?
Some possible reasons I could come up with (feel free to add any appropriate to you):
-You would continue to see her, but her 'game' hasn't changed/improved/etc. Gives you the impression of too-much 'scripting'.
-Inconsistency - she doesn't do now what caused you to designate her an ATF originally. This may not be in the physical realm, but rather other little things which seemed to make a meeting special. For example,
== maybe she sent a nice email after your first/second encounter, but you only get a one-line 'form letter-ish' thanks.
== or her email responsiveness has fallen away, and when you send requests for certain attire before a meeting, it gets ignored.
== on multiple-hour dates she extended the clock a small buit (on her own volition) but now makes it clear when time is almost up.
== or maybe on the flip side, she 'pushes' the activity in the date towards areas bordering on the 'unsafe' to you (camel toe slides, etc) and it gets you thinking how far she goes with others.
-Money issues. Maybe you stayed because you were 'grandfathered in' but her rates now don't justify her increase. Or you feel taken for granted, or she asks what gift you brought her this time without you pro-offering anything.
As I said, much more free time on my hands. Personally I have not experienced most of the above. Was just doing a 'brainstorm'.
I've had several "favorite ladies--FLs" although I do not use the term ATF because there can only be one of those and until I stop this hobby, there is always the possibility that that could change.
Regarding my FLs, I've stopped seeing some of them because they have either moved away (Ellie-she did move back a few months ago), left the bizz (Misty Bay, Gabby, Missy K--she is back again now) or level of service or performance dropped off (no names here LOL). Some have raised their rates above my budget (again, no names).
When I get the "familiarity breeds contempt" feeling. I used to get two pops now only one. The first third of the hour is listening to her complain about the jerks she seen so far and or the problems she's had with the hotel, airlines (for travelers) etc. Hey I just wanna do you, I'm not your therapist. It's not that I don't care, but cooling my heels sort of takes the fun out of the anticipation.
Being from MN I feel for you about your team.
As for stopping to see an ATF. I have had very limited experience so far but one other reason I could see would be you got "too close"? Maybe one or the other developed deeper feelings than would be warranted by the business nature of the relationship.
There has been only one lady I had to stop seeing and you have identified the reason. If I continued to see her, I would not be able to keep a professional distance from her. I found myself thinking "Wonder what ___ would think of this?" or "I really have to bring ___ here to see this." When I found myself doing that, I knew that I couldn't let myself spend more time with her.
I hasten to say that I had no reason to believe that she did or didn't share my feelings--I just didn't want to expose myself to the inevitable hurt if she didn't.
Have any guys ever told their ATFs (or Favs) they were moving on, not becuase of a negative on her part, but because you were thinking too much about her?
And for the ladies, have you ever been told by a guy he couldn't see you anymore because he was feeling too 'close'? I wonder how many ladies have been left 'wondering' knowing that a great client is still hobbying (andm aybe even posting here).
This has never happened to me though my ATF has told me of at least one of her regulars who stopped seeing her because he felt he was getting to close.
Of course, her response of "OK, see ya" probably didn't sit too well with him but that's life I guess...
I for one do not shy away from an emotional attachment if one develops. It only adds to the excitement during the session. As long as both parties are honest with themselves and each other about what can and can not happen.
i have one regular who seems to be heading down that road...at the end of every visit he's obviously riddled with guilty feelings (he's happily married, just seeks variety), and often expresses to me how devastated he knows his wife would be if she ever found out. also he has become steadily more and more emotionally attached, not crossing any lines but i can see it's difficult for him. a couple of times he's said "this may be our last visit"...because he just doesn't feel it's an emotionally healthy situation for him. so i do feel like eventually he will get up the strength to not come back, but i will certainly miss him if/when that day comes, as he's one of my favorites and one i consider a friend.
I have no wife or SO at the present time, so there's no sense of guilt associated with my seeing this lady--it's just that she's half my age, has other interests and, as they say, there's no fool like an old fool.
So far the only reason was a lady retired. Since I don't get out often and tend to then focus on a multiple-hour or overnight date there is less of a familiarity issue since I might see a favorite lady 3 times a year. For the overnight or multiple day gigs that is relativley frequently but not so much to become too familiar.
When they start taking you for granted. All the reasons you listed are warning sings that you are being taken for granted.
In Men are From Mars... John Gray reminds us that it's folly to expect eternal springtime, perpetual romance... Sometimes in these matters you have to just walk away with the memory; nothing more.
Luckily one retired before I pulled the plug on her so I have fond memories left. A couple of others weren't so lucky. Another is on the verge of being walked from because I'm feeling like her ATM machine. I'm being to see the wisdom of only seeing someone 2 or 3 times and then moving on.
-- Modified on 11/18/2007 12:31:22 PM
And starts telling me her complaints and talking about her problems. The most offensive of these is any issue dealing with her boyfriend. Now that's a real buzz killer.
I have no problem with the use of the term ATF. I have had several but it is in sequence from the first, who is now retired, to the current, who is not. You can't know, when you decide a lady is your all time favorite, who you will meet after she moves on, and they always move on.
The gal that I currently see twice a month or so is, in every sense, the lady who I compare all other experiences to and she comes out ahead in all categories. So much so that when my former ATF came out of retirement briefly last year I did not book an appointment with her.
The one thing that is constant in this hobby is change. I have met some truly amazing women but it is always in the back of my mind that eventually they will move on and the search for the next amazing woman will start.
The subject matter of this thread is an excellent one; there was a provider who I formerly considered an ATF who I had an exclusive relationship w/ for 5&1/2 years----things came to an end because she was a "user" that tried to take unfair advantage of me on several occasions. Things got acrimonious to the point that she wouldn't even furnish a reference for me to a new provider ( despite the fact that I lavished quite a bit of $ on her throughout the years. )
I'm currently seeing a new ATF & things are great so far------I just history doesn't repeat itself. But those are the perils of hobbying---
Back in the 90's I during the downtread of a bad marriage, I was seeing a provider who was married to a guy who was basically her pimp. She was from a good family and college grad...one would even say refined.....
Her Hubby was a big dumb Jethro Boozo who would collect the money and go downstairs and gamble it away. (We often met in Atlantic City)
After, several months of meetings, she decided to slip me her personal cell phone number. We would arrange meetings near her home during the day while Jethro was working. I assumed this was becuase she wanted to keep some of the money she was earning her back rather than giving to him to piss awaay.
However, I soon realized that she was getting a little too close and crossing the proffessional boundaries when she invited me to a weekend with her sister and her b/f. I asked what about your hubby, she said he was bust and it was OK because her sister hated the Hubby. I declined. I told her it just didn't feel right....with that things changed....We meet two more times after that....she started talking about meeting a man that she was thinking of leaving her husband for....My response was that she deserved better than the hubby....who I thought he was a creep. The last time I talked to her was to wish her happy New Year ....I was in Vegas and she was in PA....She told me that was very happy in her new life. I wished her well......I never called her again until about 3 months.....the number was changed.
I still think about her.....and the rough times she got me thought.....Do I have any regrets in not exploring a life with her...No. But does make me go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Since I travel around (hence the 'original' handle here of 'VisitingProf'), I place a premium on email communication. From my initial contact, which is always gentlemanly and provides more than enough info to establish my seriousness, thorough follow-up emails both before and after a date, responsive replies with more than a breif sentence or two lets me know the lady is serious herself.
There are a number of ladies I'd love to meet, and who could become favorites, have been added to the "don't bother again" list, since I didn't get a response. I'm known to fly around the country to visit a lady who isn't in my home turf, or have them fly East, so I am not a 'fisher' just sending useless, time-consuming emails. But in order to do that, I need to know she is repsonsive and emails are the only way of figuring this out. I've been canceled on twice by someone who enjoys seeing me, and was a 'Fav' of mine, but it's at the 'too much drama' stage and has become too business-like so I moved on.
To me a potential ATF doesn't have to be a '10' (or a '9') in either Looks or Performance, but does need to be respectfully responsive. I've noticed better responsiveness in the 30+ and 40+ age range. (Not coincidentality where my 'Favs' are.)
I guess you have to do what works for you but, in my experience, expecting any sort of on-going email relationship from a woman you have not seen yet simply will not always happen. I also travel quite a bit for business and my emails have been ignored by quite a few very well reviewed ladies, even a couple that I've already seen.
I have a favorite lady in the South Jersey area who I see when I am working down there. My occasional "Hi, how are you" emails get pretty much ignored but when I email looking to book an appointment she gets back to me within a day. This has been going on for about three years and, believe me, "responsive" does not even begin to describe what happens when we are in bed together even if she is not great at email correspondence.
"My occasional "Hi, how are you" emails get pretty much ignored but when I email looking to book an appointment she gets back to me within a day. "
chuckle.
It is amazing how 'responsive' some get when a $ is involved.
True, I do like to 'pre-grease' the wheels, so to speak, prior to a first meeting. Probably why agencies do not appeal to me. And I'm not a "try every flavor in the icecream shop". Familiarity has its appeal. Since I travel and need to often plan ahead 4-8 weeks, getting a few emails lets me know I can depend on her to actually be there when the time arises. I don't "double book" myself. I was in one city and a very well reviewed lady didn't show up there, and didn't contact me via phone like I asked. Luckily, I had been in email contact with another lady and she happened to have time that afternoon with 2 hours notice. Otherwise it would have been a pretty boring afternoon instead of fireworks city!
very early in my hobbying career. She was a close match to my wife (who is hot but not hot for sex 
I was immature in my emotional state with all this and I got way to close to her with my feelings. She does massages and only has FS with a very few clients. We had lunches and dinners and I was just falling head over heals in lust with her. I broke it off with her with a stupid lie that I'm sure didn't go over as well as I intended. Wish I had been mature enough to do it another way. That still bothers me.
One other got to the complaining mode that others have mentioned. Geez, I don't need to hear about how the ECM went out on your Honda!
So in my brief career - that's it. I will mention that there is a lady that I've seen once who I'd kidnap and take her to some island and just spend all day with her in bed. But she only does outcalls - too tough and too expensive - especially since she "moved up" to the $500 per hour rate. Damn.
Oh...and there is an Asian gal whose BBBJCIM is just great but I just can't get turned on by her looks. What's the problem you're probably saying?!!!!
I'm REALLY looking forward to the day when a lady tells me "I can't see you anymore I think you're just too hot!" I'll get her to put that up on the net!
I agree that it's important to plan ahead when looking for quality ladies on the road, it just doesn't seem to work out the majority of the time. I've actually booked appointments two or three weeks out only to have girls flake when I arrive in town.
By the way, I've got no complaints about my Jersey girl once we finally get together. I book two hours and our visits, including dinner, drinks and the fun stuff range anywhere from three or four hours to overnight depending on our schedules.
What is more likely to get you a response when you try to contact your doctor, with whom you have a business relationship: an email/phone call by you wanting to chat, ask him how his/her day has been going... or an email/phone call by you wanting to set up a checkup?
-- Modified on 11/18/2007 7:31:26 PM
You are right, but you are comparing apples to oranges. You can look at any board on this site and do a search on any of them, and what you'll find is that when a girl often flirts openly with a specific guy on the board, they are more than likely regular partners. I ALWAYS give my business to girls that are considerate and genuinely friendly. Why you ask? The service is far superior to the girls who just treat me as a number. I do enjoy getting the most bang for my buck! Business is a two-way street, guys want a great experience for all that money. It is a LOT of money afterall.
Don't get me wrong- I agree that the flirting aspect is a very fun and important part of a date. I myself strive to respond to all emails I receive. But I just don't think it's a very effective method to judge friendliness-factor on whether or not she responds to everything you send her. She could just be an unfriendly provider with a lot of time on her hands.
-- Modified on 11/18/2007 8:59:07 PM
You are absolutely right. Neither party really knows who they are meeting until they stand face to face for the first time. I have seen a certain provider over the years, who is very well known nationally, who isn't very good at replying to emails. In person she is one of the friendliest people you could ever want to meet. Oh yeah, she's pretty damn good at being a provider too! 
Too much to tell here... suffice to say, TER led me to a once-notorious NY Agency (now gone, owners in prison, frankly, they belong there) which had the most AMAZING girls - all of whom became ATFs to me, all but ONE of whom began seeing me on the side on their own, and finally, one of which I actually moved in with and left my wife and kids for. And stayed with for FOUR years.
Yes, she was spectacular, and yes the sex continued to be astonishing for three solid years - like living in a porn movie, no shit.
But was it worth it? No. Not financially (my wife had a VERY good lawyer and I was too wracked with guilt to fight her at all) ultimately, not emotionally and not sexually (my dear hot little half-my-age ATF-turned-full-time GFE began to indulge her giant-cock fetish behind my back with other big boys) and it all ended up very badly for all involved. I swore I was in love with her, but really I was obsessed with her sexually - and she was obsessed with me to the point of stalking-type behavior, hacking my cell phones, e-mails, I have no IDEA how she did it, but she did. And on our few preliminary attempts to break up, she immediately attached herself to another guy and began obsessive stalking-type behavior with him (400 phone calls in three days? His wife sent me the records... sick.) And yet, I continued to forgive her, keep trying (I had lost everything else anyway) and finally, could not take anymore and ended it (I pray) for good.
And then what happened? Of course...... another ATF, even younger, who now swears she is "in love" with me and calls me 30 times/day or more, shows up at my house at all hours (even though she is still working as a porn star and escort - where does she find he time?) and swears that she "comes when I just touch her or kiss her" - hmmmm..... now where have I heard THAT before?
And the worst part is - she IS amazing sexually, and we DO have an insanely hot connection ( we were filmed without my knowledge during one marathon 5 hour session and even I have to admit - it was incredible to watch - now I am being badgered to sign a release for the tape.... wouldn't Mom love THAT).
What is WRONG with us anyway? Maybe nothing and I should just count my good fortune that beautiful women - no matter what their profession - are available to me, paid for or not (they are ALL paid for, guys, just ask my ex.)
To me it is unreasonable to expect an ATF to have a continual e-mail dialog between appointments. A good lady may be the ATF of dozen of gents and having such an e-mail exchange will be very time consuming let alone exhausting in many ways. All I can expect from my ATFs is to be the most important person during that time we are on the clock. That said, I do appreciate getting a short follow-up e-mail after appointment thanking me for choosing her recognizing I have many other many other choices and I selected her.
it's just a matter of time before the provider starts taking you for granted as a regular. The things that drew you to her as ATF type material will fall by the wayside and she'll start to take you and your $$ for granted. Level of service and attention to details starts to slip, cancellations and being late starts to happen, etc..
Some guys are ok with putting up with this type of BS but I'm not one of them. Of all the girls that I've become a regular (and very good client) of, I've never met a single one that really knew how to treat and keep a good customer happy. It's always a matter of when, not if, things go downhill and you have to shut her off and move on.
Had a provider I really got along with, had great conversations, great sex. Lots of fun. Last time I saw her she was wearing sweatshirt and sweatpants. I mean, at least make a little effort! She then disappeared for about six months. No email response, no website, nothing. When she resurfaces, I tried to set up appointments twice, and she cancels on me at the last minute both times. I'm done.
And naturally, the client never does anything on his part to cause such a change in the provider, such as wanting her to drop everything because he's a regular, expecting extra time that wasn't paid for, increasing the references to getting together "off the clock", etc...
Sure, guys like that exist and they should get what they deserve if that's how they chose to behave. But I'm a straight shooter and have never in my many years of hobbying done anything along those lines. . Not once, ever.
Hence you are providing a good case in point. A smart provider would be able to recognize after a while of dealing with a client that he's not a bad egg like some of the others. If he's a good client and a good source of steady business, one would think she'd do the "little things" to show it and hopefully keep him coming back. But instead, it inevitably winds up going in the other direction. The sexy attire turns into jeans and a t-shirt. Being punctual turns into not thinking twice about canceling on short notice, and providing a "dog ate my homework" reason. A second pop which was once an automatic, now becomes something he has to intentionally make happen or she'll be more than happy to chat away the rest of your session. The cell phone that used to get shut off during appts now rings and she doesn't hesitate to answer it.
I've personally seen it a hundred times over. And I've yet to meet a provider that was actually an exception to this inevitable rule. Maybe it's something in the DNA of the type of person that becomes a provider.
You apparently aren't seeing the right ladies. But I think I can understand why some may wind up doing some of those things, and it's not necessarily because they start taking you for granted. If a lady shows up in something much more casual or if she appears to want to chat the rest of the session away, it may be because she feels she is getting a little closer to you as a friend and that she can be more of herself around you. So far as talking she may just get carried away and not notice how much time has gone by. We are humans, too, and we do sometimes like to let our true selves shine through occasionally. Have you ever emailed any of these ladies to let them know how you felt?
I know what your saying, but if I really thought that was the case I wouldn't have a problem with that. When you experience it first hand it's easy to tell the difference between what you described vs. someone who stops making effort. I've never emailed a provider to tell her this because I shouldn't have to. I'm the one paying her, not the other way around, I shouldn't be in the position of having to convince her to do her job.
I think all of the points you made are legitmate, however, your statements of "I shouldn't have to," and "I shouldn't be in the postion of" got me to thinking. It could be allot like me saying, "I shouldn't have to tell by barber that s/he didn't cut my hair like I usually like it." Or, "I shouldn't have to tell my doctor what my symptoms are, s'he should be able to tell just by looking at be." "Shouldn't have to" can be used as a term of entitlement. Often the other person might disagree as to your claim of it.
I see what your saying but that's not quite what I meant. Telling the barber how you like your hair cut, telling the DR your symptoms, and telling the provider your preferences goes without saying.
But when the barber starts forgetting to bring scissors to your haircuts, and your Psychologist starts spending more and more of your hourly sessions talking about his problems rather than yours, and your lawyer who bills by the hour seems more focused on text messaging with his golf buddies during your meeting that he does providing you legal advice....the client shouldn't have to remind them that this isn't appropriate.
It's funny you mention the word "entitlement". This is sort of my point...but I think it's the providers who are the ones who are feeling "entitled". Guys are forking over cash left and right to be with them and there's an endless supply of horny guys in the world, so they lose sight of having any form of respect for the hand that feeds them.
I very much take into account that "you were there," and that is what is important here. And, the examples of the behavior you just gave are inexcusable. I got caught up in the words, but "you were there."
I don't see my ATF all that often so when she comes to town, it's always a pleasure. I've never thought about stopping seeing her even though other providers give me a better GFE. I understand her reasons for not doing full GFE and we get along quite well. It's not a problem for me.
I'd stop seeing her if my feelings got too deep or if I thought she was a risk to my privacy. Other than that, I can't think of any reason NOT to see her.
I rarely reply to the discussion board but decided I could add something to this discussion. I agree with many of the comments about an "ATF" relationship. After seeing a lady for about 6 months regularly, like twice a month, she began to complain, change her rules as to what we would and could do, stopped giving me the extra time that she had always given, and began to expect a tip or a gift with every visit. I had been very generous with my tips and gifts but when I didn't continue to do it on every date she began to express her displeasures with our dates. She kept telling me that I was definitely a guy she wanted to see, that I was a friend as much as a client, how she appreciated the help that I had given her with her career, etc and etc. So I cut it off. Well after about 2 months she emailed me that she really missed me and wanted me to come back. Things would be like they were when we first started seeing each other. Well the little head overruled the head on my shoulders. After 3 visits it was bad to the same crap as before. So I'm out of there and don't plan to go back.
On the other hand, there is one lady whom I only see 2 or 3 times a year and have had this type of schedule for the past 5 years. We regularly communicate via email and discuss many topics. This lady probably should be my true ATF as we always have a great time, she still gives me the same rate that she charged 5 years ago (her hrly rate is now $125 more than it was then), and she never complains or makes a date uncomfortable. Maybe the old saying of absence makes the heart grow fonder applies. The lesson learned is to not see a provider too frequently.
My ATF and I have always have a great time together. We have a great deal in common so she's a real joy to talk to as well.
We had broached the possibility of a civvie platonic friendship but she ultimately declined and I accepted that.
What I am getting fed up with is her occasional text messages that suggest she might be up for spending time off the clock [no sex] by using phrases like "I'd love to see you" or "let's get together", and then not responding when I follow up. I think she is playing on my interest in her to maintain my business - which is completely unnecessary.
I have been a steady client, and have always respected her boundaries. She would not be in danger of losing me as a client if she didn't send these suggestive text messages.
Then she raises her rates and does not even consider grandfathering me in. I know she's not obligated to do this, but it is usually considered a courtesy for valued clients - which I guess I'm not.
I know the feeling. There's one lady I see that I gave 9/9 to on TER, which (for reasons I can't fathom--she is awesome) is higher than any other review. I see her very regularly. She's shared her phone and real name with me and I have off the clock taken her to dinner for her birthday and taken her to two movies she wanted to see, my treat of course. But at the movie both times we met there and she showed up just as the curtain was parting and we separating immediately upon leaving the theater. And in the last month she has said (while I'm paying for her time), "Hey let's see [2 other movies now playing]" plus "Hey let's go out this weekend shopping for lingerie" and even "If you want to pick up young girls like me, you need a "pivot". Let's cruise the nightclubs this weekend, and I'll play your pivot." Yet none of these things are followed up on when I text her. I, too, think (sadly) it's just an effort to maintain my business, which was completely unnecessary and now I feel I'm being suckered.
I think she means it but is conflicted.
I've been in your position with a couple of ladies and it can be very frustrating trying to figure out what is going on. Honestly, the unnecessary BS usually causes me to move on.
I never go looking for off the clock stuff so if a lady offers it I assume that she is sincere about enjoying my company. If it turns into a head game or BS just to keep my business I really can't enjoy the appointment any more.
in my book, If I cut off an ATF or she does the same to me to me, she no longer remains an ATF----if she retires as an ATF, she will stay that way in my mind. I have one from the mid 80's that
qualifies as such-----a British, petite, blonde hottie who was dynamite in bed----she will remain forever in my memory.
The first "provider" I saw was my ATF for some time until she decided to take a hiatus for a six or seven months.
After not seeing her for awhile, I decided to email her just asking about life and the family with no request for a session. She responded and let me know that she was providing again.
I was excited and made about three appointments with her over the next several weeks. However, what I soon learned was she had returned due to financial needs. It was obvious she no longer enjoyed the sessions and was doing it out of necessity.
I liked her a lot but I didn't enjoy the latter sessions. Consequently, I wrote her an email letting her know that I would no longer be seeing her.
OFF 
UrGBP
Now I am retired...