which I have done before, nothing new. This one though was just really disappointing and reminding me of what we are up against as a community when it comes to the perceived perceptions of sex work. The pod cast is called "cut the bull". It was BAD, but if you want to laugh at my very bad fumbles feel free. I was asked to come on to discuss sex work and Libertarianism. I actually do a lot of research beforehand on the topics so I have all of my ducks in a row. I even sent a few ideas to the guy that runs the podcast as to what I could talk about. He did not give me any additional information so I was kind of going in blind. The woman on the panel (who I was told is a lawyer in real life) asked me questions about why/how her two friends who were dancers were very unhappy as sex workers. OK. How am I supposed to answer that?? She also said that the brothel that was raided in the twin cities, MN multiple teen girls were rescued and this was a giant trafficking ring? I have found nothing to prove this, if anyone has anything to show this please let me know. And last I was told that I am not an accurate representation of a sex worker because I have CURTAINS ON MY WINDOWS. She really said this. I was disappointed in myself because I did not feel prepared for these complete left field questions. But I am also wondering how much more factual data do we have to come up with for people to believe us? Survival sex work DOES exist and we want sex workers that are suffering with addictions and/or domestic violence/homelessness to get the help they need. But anyone who has been in this industry either as a client or provider knows that the bulk of people that partake in this are just regular middle class normal people. HOW do we get people to understand this?!? Rant over and have a good weekend.....

END OF MESSAGE

Based upon what you wrote, it sounds like you were set up.  They weren't looking for balance as the Podcaster wasn't an impartial participant.  

"HOW do we get people to understand this?!?"   Was this a rhetorical question???  

I don't mean to be unpleasant and you did show a lot of guts to do this. But it looks like you ran into EXACTLY the kind of misinformation that most "civilians' have about this business. You should have been prepared to point out that, yes, there are trafficked women in sex work and that's lamentable and should be condemned. BUT there is also another totally different side of things and that's the world represented by TER and its members. Both things can be true at the same time. And the best way to improve things is to decriminalize sex work. If you want to do this again, I suggest you read up on all the aspects of decriminalization vs. legalization and how it is managed in other counties.
Good luck!

People are going to follow who they want, and believe what they want. There are so many given a megaphone who have no idea what they are talking about, and yet people follow them and believe them. All you can do is your part and hope you make a difference. Your impact is not measured by everyone. Your impact is measured by the ones who are open to listening and learning.

I’m sure it’s not all actual & factual. Good for you for trying to help. 🤷🏽‍♀️ I really don’t know.  

It’s hard to be honest about our occupation when we’re constantly being judged. I’m sure she has curtains on her windows too. Don’t sweat the small stuff.  

Lawyers are magnificent cunts. 😂

What episode?

You were not intimidated by that podcast, and you were not ashamed of your work and that, in and of itself, is VERY powerful. Let me address some of the points raised in the convo.
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Regarding the claim that the lawyers friends are unhappy in sex work, why would that be surprising? I have plenty of friends in more traditional, RW careers who absolutely hate their jobs. Discontent with ones profession isn’t unique to sex work. Citing two individuals as a representation of the entire industry is misleading. That’s not a trend…that’s just two data points out of tens of thousands...or more!
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And let’s be honest here and say there’s also the possibility that their views were misrepresented by the lawyer to support a particular narrative. Maybe it’s more nuanced than how she portrayed it? That is the danger of relying on anecdotal evidence…it can be twisted in either direction as agendas often come into play. Not really ripping her for that as that is just human.
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Now, about how much factual data we need to convince people like the woman you were debating…the truth is, no amount will suffice for someone whose perspective is built on a Hollywood caricature of sex work which may indeed be the case with her. When someone’s beliefs are rooted in stigma and misinformation, logic and statistics rarely ever change their minds.
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Which brings me to your final question...how do we get people to recognize that sex work is legitimate work, often performed by stable, middle class individuals? The answer is…exactly what you are already doing! Every time you show up on a podcast or a public platform as the articulate, empowered professional that you are, you are normalizing sex work.  
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You are breaking down the stereotype that sex workers are only victims. You are showing the world that this is real work and for many, it’s meaningful, chosen work…and… dare I even say it? Work that many SWs actually LOVE doing! Lol.  
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I often say this to my provider bed partners…you help bring much needed peace and exhilaration into our lives. Sexual satisfaction makes life more joyful, reduces stress, allows people to explore fantasies/fetishes without judgment. That has real emotional and psychological value, and it shouldn’t be minimized.
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Scarlet, it may be hard for you to see the bigger picture when you're caught up in the battle, but the war is shifting in our favor. Cities across the globe are openly discussing decriminalization and legalization. And while I don’t advocate for anyone to feel forced to go public with their RW look, the increasing visibility of confident providers who are now “face out” is helping to dismantle stigma faster than ever before.
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Look at how the LGBTQ+ community helped shift public perception. It was NOT legislative changes that led the way, it was individuals coming out, living their truth, and showing the world that they were not “the other.” They were our friends, our family, our neighbors, our co-workers…all deserving of dignity and equality who risked everything by finally having enough of living in the shadows. The same approach is working for sex work now.
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I know you feel like your appearance on that podcast was a failure. I understand why it might feel that way, but I encourage you to zoom out and look at it from a different perspective. At 30,000 feet, it’s clear we have come a long way and we are constantly continuing to make progress.  
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You are part of a growing movement, and every time you show up, you push the needle forward. You will learn from any perceived mistakes you felt you made on that podcast, and those experiences, while embarrassing or frustrating in the moment, will only make you an even BETTER advocate to espouse your deeply held beliefs in the future.
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You should be proud of that FACT. You are dismantling harmful stereotypes, bringing humanity and intelligence to this conversation, and giving others the courage to speak out, all the while putting big smiles on your clients faces. lol
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One last point...Keep going!!! You, and people like you, are making a massive difference and I, along with many others, thank you for it!

Yes, it was last night from 8 pm to about 9:15 pm CST. Not sure when they will have it posted.  
I believe the title will be "sex work and Libertarianism with Scarlet" or something similar.

Giant thank you to everyone that was supportive and responded to this on here and via DM. And yes, we do have a very uphill battle to show all aspects of sex work, the good and the bad. I will keep chugging and doing my part!!!  

xoxo
Scarlet

After a quick bit of research I'm not surprised you went into a hostile environment. The woman, Christy Kelly, is a Pepperdine Law grad and ran for office as a Republican in Arizona. Wilfred Reilly is a right wing commentator who thinks most hate crimes are hoaxes (and wrote a book about it). Brooks Crenshaw describes himself on twitter as a "Writer, columnist, & speaker - Unpacking the frameworks that built the West—faith, reason, order, and the individual." I would never expect any of these people to be sympathetic to any arguments about sex work or sex workers. They are very socially conservative and right wing. They're not necessarily sympathetic to libertarian ideas of freedom and choice. They probably think sex work is immoral and it is very hard to use empirical evidence to sway people's moral beliefs. Certain people are never going to understand your position because they simply view sex work as bad and corrosive. They don't care about your middle class income or status, they're just thinking about the "normal life" that you're potentially "missing out" on. I think sometimes you just have to know your audience, realize who may or may not be sympathetic, and adjust your expectations/approach based on that.  
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PS I wouldn't be surprised if one of the male hosts sees escorts on a regular basis. Lord knows there are plenty of Republicans on this website. A quick look at the P&R board quickly proves that.

Sorry you were treated this way. I did about 3 minutes of research (i.e., google) and discovered that Charles Love and Wilfred Reilly are a couple of wingnuts, one from the way far left and the other from the way far right. I can see the genesis of their podcast is conflict!

Why can’t you guys keep your politics on the political forum ?  

Thanks

END OF MESSAGE

You realize the pack you have been seeming to run with that's beefing with Robert is largely guys who carry that beef over from the P&R Board because Robert is more liberal and they are more right? For a minute, I honestly thought you were in line with them because of it.

First, you have giant balls (well you know, figuratively) to go on a show/pod that is purposefully going to try to make you and your points look bad. Was it livestreamed at least? I'd never agree to go on a show like this if it is edited before it's aired. Because even if you beat them in debate, they can edit it in a way thats less damaging.

 
But again, nothing but props here. We disagree on a lot but I do respect you immensely. Not that it means much to you bit still.  

 
Second, i do agree it's a setup but you already knew this. Youre a sharp person.

Third, don't take it as critique because what I type right now from comfort of my couch, is very different situation from you in which you have like less than five seconds to come up with a response on the spot. Just my thoughts on it. Looking forward to hearing/seeing this pod.

 

"about why/how her two friends who were dancers were very unhappy as sex workers. OK. How am I supposed to answer that??"
This is a bad strawman from their side.
You could deal with it via sample size or more of a in your face way. Knowing what I read about the show in this thread, I'd probably do the latter. Ie, I'd say well, I know two friend podcasters are unhappy with their lives. Is that an indictment on podcasting? This is where you research comes in and ideally you spit out some numbers that back up your claim that certain things are lower in sex worker industry than in other industries.

 
Obviously, the whole "I know two people in this profession who are unhappy therefor profession is bad" is nonsense to the extreme degree, but that's where one understands that you're not only against them but also their audience. So you have to stoop to their level to make points, not just make  rational points. It gets dirty quick.  

 
"
She also said that the brothel that was raided in the twin cities, MN multiple teen girls were rescued and this was a giant trafficking ring?"  

I'm not really sure what that was supposed to prove. Because some part of sex work involves people doing bad stuff, it gives individual sex workers bad name?  

 
Once again knowing their political affiliation (and I can do this with both sides, so fun when you don't fuck with either  
 Left or right) I'd probably jump in right with everyone's favorite financial advisor who may have or may not have died on his own accord in jail.  

Curtains on your windows - lol. That's pretty bad even for them. I'd probably ask that person if they also know two unhappy sex workers. Lol. When someone is out of their element but they "have friends" its the easiest avenue to hammer them.  

"But anyone who has been in this industry either as a client or provider knows that the bulk of people that partake in this are just regular middle class normal people. HOW do we get people to understand this?!?  

 

We don't. Scarlet you're a smart gal. These folks don't want the narrative that most people who engage in this industry are normal middle class people. What they want is a narrative is that sex work is a way for some to survive and on client side it's just losers ugly or asocial people who pay for sex.
To villify the industry they need a narrative how normal people wouldn't do it. As if we don't have sex drives.  

 
Considering their conservative values, many of them also don't like the concept of men or women who engage in sex with multiple partners, for fun.

 
The scariest thing for them is to make p4p normalized. They also don't want the world to hear about  successful, wealthy people who trick just like the "broke Johns" because then their narrative is exposed. You're never going to make them understand because they don't want to understand. Nor are they capable of it until they themselves want to p4p.

Again, first of all I want to thank all of you for your support here!!  
So....the gent that sent me the invite to this pod cast (Willfred Reilly) sent me a DM on twitter letting me that after the show ended the female antagonist (Christy Kelly) told the other panelists (all male) that she was "not happy" that the other panelists were "nice" to me and they told her that they thought I was funny and relatable during the pod cast which she did NOT like. So we have ourselves a female jealous and catty lawyer!!! When it is available I will post the link.  
Now this whole shit show makes more sense.....

END OF MESSAGE

Charles Love, not Brooks Crenshaw, is Wilfred Reilly’s regular cohost on the Cut The Bull podcast. Is it possible that Crenshaw turned up in your research because he had been a guest? I do see that Crenshaw appeared to be listed as a host on Alan Dershowitz’s appearance.

Another poster’s take on the hosts:

I would answer that while legalization of sex work is technically a political issue, the underlying theme of the message delivered in the podcast goes to our society’s cultural acceptance of sex work.  In that sense, maybe the General Forum is the appropriate venue for her to publicize her appearance on the podcast.

That said, there is a risk that some of the subthreads sprouting from this topic could veer purely political, and either those threads or the entire topic could end up being moved to the other forum at a later date.

I have like two posts on the P&R board, I avoid it because it is a cesspool. I came to this site to talk about escorts not politics. I rarely take a look at it and when I do it I usually quickly leave. It is an ongoing flame war.  
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I don't want to change the topic of this thread. I'll quickly address this since you brought this up. My political beliefs are likely to the left of Robert's. I have no significant issues with his politics but I don't really know his political beliefs and don't want to. I've gotten into plenty of arguments with CDL and Snafu. I don't know why you think I'm running in a pack just because we recently agreed in a few arguments. I'm not on anyone's side. I have no idea why other people and Robert have ongoing beefs. I know Robert recently claimed he was being targeted for his politics. To reiterate, any issues I have with Robert have nothing to do with politics or the P&R board. Any issues I've had have been laid out in prior arguments so I will not be rehashing them here. This is Scarlet's thread about her podcast and the politics of sex work.  I don't want to hijack this thread or start an argument so I will not discuss this topic on this thread anymore.

Was there a change in the panel recently? I'm looking at their YouTube channel and all the most recent videos have Brooks Crenshaw and not Charles Love. It looks like Charles hasn't been on since episode 170 and that Brooks has taken the spot since 171. All the YT thumbnails seem to show Brooks since then.  
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Scarlet, did you do the interview with two bald white dudes or was there a black dude there?

Well said.

You showed true bravery and an open mind going into the conversation.  Too bad all they wanted was a punching bag.  
Their minds are closed tighter than their assholes.  
Fuck them.
Move on.

My bobby beef has nothing to do with politics, it's his white knight ass licking he provides damn near to each and every female that posts on here.  Scarlet could have just as easily shared her Wisconsin Beer Cheese Soup recipe and bobby the butt sniffer would have come running to volunteer his validation and usually in the form of a novel as shown above in his 13 paragraphs of regurgitated word salad.

To stay on topic (for the mods), good work Scarlet but as the board's grand wizard of knowledge, surely you must know the first rule in public speaking...read the room.  I've never heard of this crew but it didn't take a lot to figure out where their beliefs were and how you should have prepped yourself for what was potentially hostile territory.

I'd push back on much of what you wrote but I'd be here all fucking night responding to your novelette so I'll leave it with a single item.

"Look at how the LGBTQ+ community helped shift public perception..."  

They were pushing public perception right up until they went over a cliff.  

That may have been an accurate statement a few years back but they didn't keep their house in order and they let the + part take over their movement.  After a few disastrous tranny focused corporate marketing campaigns not just fell flat, but destroyed brands and market share and a very unfortunate election (for some) the public is fatigued and now even the LGB's are sick and tired of the t's.  OK, I'll give Dave Chapelle credit for that last part.   "they" have set the LGB movement back at least 10 years but probably a lot more.  I don't have a horse in that race so this is just an observation.  Aside from a gay uncle, that is...

I'm going to get wrecked over that so as long as I'm going to get destroyed, I'll leave this thread with one more observation and that it's ironically fucking hilarious when the trantifa crowd and the free palestine idiots push their way thru the BLM'rs to disrupt pride parades.   I loaded up on Orville Redenbacher stock the second week of last November so it's been a win-win for me (I love popcorn!).  

was for the amusement value. A bit like getting your news from John Oliver but not as polished.

Nobody wants to interview me, but if they did, I would insist on making my own recording (in real time) in the event that the interviewers choose to release an edited version. Did you make your own recording while there?  
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Does their podcast site have a place for comments, where you can clarify anything that needs it?
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I have a question about "curtains on [your] windows." Without context, I have to wonder what it means. So far, I'm thinking of two possibilities. Any others?
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(1) In the Red Light Districts of Amsterdam, etc., the prostitutes sit in windows to be viewed by passersby until a customer comes along and they retire to a back room. (Literally, like sitting in the window at Macy's or Bloomingdale's [or Dollar Tree, if you are more economy minded].) Those windows don't have curtains or at least the curtains aren't closed. ... So someone with "curtains on [their] windows" cannot be a prostitute?
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(2) "beef curtains" or "roast beef curtains" can refer to large labia so I figure that "curtains on [your] window" might be a slangy reference to something "down there," maybe "unshaved pussy."??????  (Maybe the missing podcast conversation was "most guys prefer a shaved pussy" ... "I don't shave down there" ... "curtains on your window so you can't be a sex worker" ... ???
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Since we have no idea of the context, can you clarify what you think she meant?

Oops. I forgot to add my comment on "why/how her two friends who were dancers were very unhappy as sex workers."
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Once again, insufficient context but ... I'm reminded of the 60 Minutes interview of that once popular porn star (short dark hair; Dave Letterman tooth gap; did a lot of anal and extreme stuff) who cried to the interviewer (Diane Sawyer? Lesley Stahl?) about how terrible her life is and how she leaving the porn world behind ... The day after that episode aired, she was laughing it up back on the set making more porn! Sometimes "friends" tell their "friends" what they think they want to hear.
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My number one guess for being unhappy as a dancer is "I thought I'd be making more money!" Costumes, cosmetics, mani-pedi-spa-hair days, transportation to/from work (suburbs), PARKING (in NYC, Boston, or other big city). Some clubs require dancers to PAY for their shifts or to share their "tips" with waitresses, bouncers, DJ, etc.. (In NYC, dancers at the major / popular clubs used to have to pay ~$50 to work a shift (8 hours?), so they start $50 in the hole! Is that still the case?)  
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Of course, to a different friend, there might be a different story: "It's so much fun making these dumb fucks think that they're going to get laid if they pay me for a few more table dances!"  
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And the usual, "I know a guy ... he's a really rich guy. He owns a big yacht ... I won't mention his name but you know who it is. He told me ..." blah, blah, blah ....

-- Modified on 9/6/2025 8:05:13 PM

Hello!

For your question about the curtains her comment was something of the sort that there was no way I was the average sex worker as I had curtains on my windows. She then went on to say that I must be solid middle class or even upper middle class to have curtains on my windows. I did comment the curtains in question I think I bought from Target. I am assuming (assuming, I have no clue what this wing nut was thinking) that all sex workers are very poor and on drugs so instead of super fancy curtains from target the average sex worker just has dirty blankets or sheets covering their windows. In whatever context be it sex work, being extremely poor, or being a drug addict implying any of those groups cannot have curtains on their windows was just extremely low brow and in very bad taste. I did not record it and have no clue about comments section on it. I stayed polite and answered the questions as best I could. Who knows if they will edit it to try and spin the narrative.

I just saw your post and hate that this happened to you. It seems like you got an unfortunate reminder that while society is becoming more accepting of SW and other lifestyles, the progress is not as fast as we think and is met with a lot of resistance. This was also another unfortunate reminder that not all women support women. The suffrage movement is a historical example of this. To answer your question, I do not think there is anything we 'do' per se to make people understand us. You cannot make someone understand or agree with you unless they are at least open to learning. Those people on the podcast simply were not. They used that moment to try to use you as a punching bag for their 'hot takes' and promoting the tired trope that SWers are miserable people who aren't articulate and have no other interests. All we can do is continue to be ourselves, and present ourselves as best as we can. Those who wish to learn will observe, ask questions (hopefully respectfully),and make their own opinions.

I will not watch that podcast as I refuse to support a platform in any way that is willing to do that to their guests, especially someone in the same community. But I am sorry this happened to you and hope you know that people are changing their views on SW and changes are coming. Hope this helps you feel better.

Sidenote: does anyone what does having curtains on your windows mean??

Honestly I don't get the curtains part either.  

Maybe the implication was that sex workers need to have bars on their windows?  But that's probably way too clever for those hosts though.

Just tell them you don't need any because, like all escorts, between engagements you hang upside down in your closet like a bat.

Stems from the idea she thinks most hookers here work like they do in the Red Light District of Amsterdam...Just a thought.

the one thing that seems to unite people on the left (feminists) and people on the right (bible-thumpers) is their disdain for sex workers.....the former group understand that sex is power, and for the most part, women control a man's access to it. The escorting profession give men who have the means to control when he can have sex, which is a big no-no for feminists....lol

The bible-thumpers also dislike it for obvious reasons, but it also allows them to create a fascist police state under the guise of fighting "trafficking," I mean who doesn't want to stop Becky and Lindsay from being "trafficked" by big, mean dark skinned people? We need more police! More task forces! lol

(I hope this post doesn't get deleted for being too political)

I hope it doesn't get deleted either just so people can see how stupid you are.  A lot of Bible thumpers just do it to make a living but most want to actually save souls and they believe prostitution is bad for both the seller and the buyer.  You know, the whole condemn your soul to hell forever part.  The question I have is do you think all religious folks who view prostituting as bad are also racists?  Does this include black preachers as well?  
OR is it YOU that thinks all traffickers are just big, mean dark skinned people?  Dude, I know a few actual racists and even they would look at you and say WTF! on that.  

Of all the ways to word it, you chose that?  Tell me again whose the rascist?

But all those thumpers, at least the Christian variety, looking to save souls need to start asking themselves "What would JC do?" They might stop feeling so righteous and moral about their actions.

His girl friend was a hooker, after all.

And I say, good for him.

I know you're a very well mannered, courteous and literate man. But I didn't know you were a bible thumper. The world never ceases to amaze!

 
But yes, that was one of the examples I was thinking of.

Or just assuming without proof. But Jesus was very clear re: his opposition to sex work.

In the 70’s so I knew Ol JC was running 😜 with a hooker and I’m not a bible thumper
Cool play by the way

but I did have some religious schooling back when I was knee high to a grasshopper.

 
Mary Magdalen  was the gal in question, and JC was a bit of a Captain Save-a-hoe, but still and all, it makes for pretty good tabloid fodder.

 
Mary M. is only mentioned twice in the whole NT, and then fairly briefly.   She is the 3rd most painted subject in the world of religious art right behind JC and his mom.   She had a hell of an agent.

 
Apparently MM felt the need to atone for her life of sin, and spent the rest of her life holed up in a grotto somewhere along the Mediterranean, or so the local inhabitants who cater to the tourists who come to pay their respects would have you believe.   There's not a shred of evidence for her having done so, however.

END OF MESSAGE

It's a HUGE misconception that she was a prostitute.  

The town she hailed from was known for their prostitutes and it explains the reason that she did penance the rest of her life, at least according to legend.

 
There isn't a whole lot of evidence for JC's existence either, or at least for all the myths that surround him, but if taken as a kind of shared mythos  of how a simple man came to be so God-like, then throwing in a story about he brought about the redemption of a prostitute, isn't much of a stretch.

END OF MESSAGE

Well the bible is, IMO, more about allegory than factual history, so who really knows who or what MM was. But my point was really about JC's messaging being about accepting and just trying offer help to sinners rather than persecuting and passing judgements on them. Judgement was suppose to be the job God did, not humans. That even runs as far back as Cain in the old testament. All us (that is humans) poor sinners are just a bunch of people living in glass houses and should not be trying to throw stones.

 
But interesting that, at least what I get from asking one of the AIs,  who MM is or was seems to come from associating her with a number of other women that were called sinners, but not named. Still, one might ask where all her money came from. They did have taxes and tax records back then and I'm sure if it's legit it's documented somewhere.

 
As for the tourists, I'm pretty sure that every ism, religion or social/political movement that persisted long past its founder's life would have become something the founder would be surprised, and often not in agreement it should have the person's name associated with it any longer. But claiming the name does pay dividends and don't require the effort and costs of creating a new brand name that is recognized.

Of course all traffickers are not "dark-skinned people."

But as long Brenda and John in their gated community believe it to be the case, they will always sign on for more "task forces" and "police" to crack down on the epidemic of "trafficking" (i.e. a bunch of weirdos seeing high-volume provider at the local Motel 6...).  

Meanwhile, the Man Who Absolutely 100% Totally Hung Himself In Federal Prison and his laundry list of blue chip clients, one of whom currently occupies a position of high power as the head of nation continue to get passes....

What is with you and rascism and the overuse of quotations?  Now you're saying that people that live in gated communities think traffickers are big, mean dark people?  Jesus, project much?

I'm not the one breaking bread with "actual racists," as you mentioned above...and clearly you know them well enough to know how they would react to my posts. Interesting.

I usually avoid such people.