In that case, I take the first part (about you asking question on TER) back. You obviously did your homework.
As far as the excuse of not paying for sex: Now that you reminded. I heard that many times. I think it is one of the best answers out there. It is confident and covers all of the bases. It also prevents future discussion because if you argue you have to admit that you are a loser.
Like some of the commentators above, I don't believe dating to hot women is free. I might even be saving some money with hobbying. I dated a few (yes just a few) hotties before. I think they all did cost more expensive than $300 per poon. That's why I said I may be saving Maybe I am too generous when it comes to women.
Anyways, congratulations for the best question I have seen here on this board. And I also appreciate great answers (not all) above.
I thought about posting this topic in newbie board since I am completely new, but maybe it is a more fitting topic for here. I have noticed the majority of people in society seems to loathe hobbyist. You hear men state hobbyist are pathetic to actually pay for sex and are total losers. Most women say they would never date or even be friends with someone in hobby. Of course in the US it is also illegal in most places since it is considered so immoral and harmful to women.
I personally don't see anything wrong with P4P, especially if both parties are willing. As someone who is considering the hobby, I find it troublesome the rest of society look at is so disapprovingly. Of course, the result is people in hobby needs keep this secret and stay underground. For me it might especially difficult since my job require a lie detector test concerning illegal activities.
Anyhow, what I wish discuss why does society find the hobby so disgusting? Are Johns actually harming anyone by taking part in hobby? What are your ideas about this topic?
Their excuse is "I don't have to pay for it." Yeah, you do. Or, to put it another way, to have sex with a gorgeous, sexy woman, you do. Your other choice is to have sex with any available fat, ugly, civvie girl. Personally, I would rather jerk off.
Of course I disagree with society's taboos, as do many on this site. I just found a great blog written by several female sex workers ranging from webcam model to BDSM to stripper to escort and they have TONS of entries criticizing the mainstream's treatment of the hobby and particularly the provider. They even call out Tina Fey's disdain for sex workers and mean-spiriting stripper/hooker jokes! Check it out
Sounds like an interesting read however when I plug "titsandass.com" into my explorer window it brings up a link to just a whole bunch of other links. Do you have a link to the actual blog?
Traditionally men have been the dominant of the sexes.
With sex women can easily level the playing field. Even if she doesn't have sex with a man (i.e. flirting, or simply smiling) she can use her beauty to manipulate us. It puts her in control of the relationship or at least helps to even the balance of power.
So many women do this that it becomes second nature to them. I don't really blame them for this either.
When a man can P4P the civvie woman loses her power base. Notice how all the "bad" girls in soap operas are always stealing the "good girls" boyfriends & husbands. They call them sluts and whores, but what is really going on is that they feel horribly threatened by this. They didn't "steal" their boyfriend. He just got a better offer.
Traditionally men have been expected to be the "provider" and the woman's job was to "catch" a good man (i.e. he made good money, was kind to her, adored her, protected and cared for her).
I really have seen a big change in the dating scene in the last few decades because women no longer "need" a man for support. They of course still want to have their cake and eat it too (want us to lavish them, wine and dine them, but then only sparingly give us the goodies so we will always be at their mercy).
I consider myself a "nice" guy. Unfortunately very few women nowadays seem interested in "nice". They aren't looking for a man to "provide" for them anymore. They want excitement (i.e. bad boys), travel etc. Being "nice" just sucks.
I tried the dating scene for several years after my divorce and finally decided that I would be better off hobbying.
It changed my outlook on things. It put me back in control of my sex life. I feel like a kid in a candy store.
All the providers that I have met have been really nice. I am not hurting or cheating on anyone and it will probably cost me less in the long run than my marriage and divorce settlement did. No drama and everybody is happy.
Sorry to dissapoint, but men have never been truly dominant of sexes. They have been stronger, they had access to education, they dictated inheritance and property laws, but they have never truly had the power. Remember the old adage "I have the pussy I make the rules"? Well it has been true for centuries.
As surprising as it may sound, but combined effect of women (1) obtaining equality, (2) making divorce cost prohibitive and (3) embracing sex revolution actually destroyed the balance between sexes. Men were stronger, women .. smarter
I find it absolutely hilarious that the only women these days who still hold traditional values when it comes to relationship and actually seek out "good men" are .... prostitutes. Ask any provider what kind of man she wants for her Significant Other and you will be surprised how many would love to be with someone who you describe as "nice" guy.
If I were a single male today, it would take an amazingly special woman and iron clad marriage contract for me to get married. EVER.
There is absolutely no shortage of "slutty" civvies who think that by bedding a man they will somehow lure him into potentially long term relationship. Try to bed a provider who is just chilling in some lounge vs picking up civvie )))
What I meant was that men have been the dominant sex within society. We could go to college, vote, get elected.. etc. Women couldn't do any of these things 100 years ago. Sex appeal was their equalizer. P4P destroys this for civvie women.
Posted By: RealityChecks
Sorry to dissapoint, but men have never been truly dominant of sexes. They have been stronger, they had access to education, they dictated inheritance and property laws, but they have never truly had the power. Remember the old adage "I have the pussy I make the rules"? Well it has been true for centuries.
As surprising as it may sound, but combined effect of women (1) obtaining equality, (2) making divorce cost prohibitive and (3) embracing sex revolution actually destroyed the balance between sexes. Men were stronger, women .. smarter
I find it absolutely hilarious that the only women these days who still hold traditional values when it comes to relationship and actually seek out "good men" are .... prostitutes. Ask any provider what kind of man she wants for her Significant Other and you will be surprised how many would love to be with someone who you describe as "nice" guy.
If I were a single male today, it would take an amazingly special woman and iron clad marriage contract for me to get married. EVER.
There is absolutely no shortage of "slutty" civvies who think that by bedding a man they will somehow lure him into potentially long term relationship. Try to bed a provider who is just chilling in some lounge vs picking up civvie )))
Goddam same reason they don't legalize drugs, even though the taxation would kill the fucking deficit.
Fucking war mongers, spending your fucking social security on shit that they can't send a few Navy Seals into and put a cap in some motherfucker's ass, right between the fucking eyes.
That's what they're trained for, have no problem doing it, and would save trillions of dollars in the process.
" Ask any provider what kind of man she wants for her Significant Other and you will be surprised how many would love to be with someone who you describe as "nice" guy."
i will agree that is what they say...but quite a few are just drawn to losers and leeches, aka "bad boys" lol and they can't help it, just like civie chicks.
back to the main point, i think we are in a sense looked down on cause what we do is "disgusting and dirty". one time one of my friends (former friend) told a civie girl i have seen an escort. she was disgusted and scared she was gonna get something from me blah, blah, blah. I got tested just to put her at ease. I didn't have the heart to tell her, she was way less safe then me. I was fucking her bareback, and every other guy. i found out there were at least 5 that i knew of in a one year period, who were also fucking her bareback and cumming in her. i think its a misconceived notion that escorts are gross and dirty for having so many sexual partners, when chances are that civie girl you are fucking is WAY less safe and has obviously had way more partners then she will say she has. i personally find this to be one of the most honest things to do, both know exactly why they are there, no games, no hurt feelings, just direct and to the point, and just from my experiences, probably safer.
Yeah... well whatever about the "looking down on it" aspect. I was just at a place with a WONDERFUL provider where every head was turning in envy and we had a phenomenal night.
I had a great time.. she left... it's over with. She's not going to ruin my life and ask for anything in return then what we just did.... My previous three ex girlfriends EACH cost far more then what I just experienced... Maybe they "loathe" the business because they can't suck men for dinners, roses, gifts, blah, blah, blah....
The "majority of people" as you suggest loathe hobbyists because they Have ZERO clue about it in the first place. ZERO CLUE... trust me from being in "Sin City" where we have 30 Million plus visitors a year that visit Vegas because of what it is. Much of the "loathing" and "looking down on it" has nothing to do with the quality girls but everything about to do with the scumbags in the business and that's the bottom line.
Really learn about the "hobbyist" experience and there is no loathing to be had. It's high class and a service between guys that want to have as little to zero complications as possible for what they want. Some people are open enough to get it.... others.... well... they think going out and having beers with friends / a good time is also frowned upon.
The U.S. is overall a "Puritan" society and that's the bottom line. Do some research on what that means.... I did not learn it until I moved over from Europe where sex is looked at as a completely different subject. As Is.... not drinking alcohol until you are 21.... REALLY????
Give me a Break... the U.S. Has FAR BIGGER PROBLEMS then worrying about hobbyists....
As for Hobbyists.... Well maybe Tiger and some others should have learned about it instead of going out and hooking up with talkers and maybe they would not be in the situation they ended up in.
AKA --- STUPID. Providers provide a service and they don't want to take over a home and ruin lives. They provide a service and that's about it... I don't condone cheating but if you have the desire.... it's far better then ending up on Cheaters, TMZ or some other stupid channel that Americans rave about.
All you have to look into are civilized societies where Prostitution is legal and compare the divorce rates to the U.S..... It's SAD in comparison....
Trust me... Divorce Sucks but U.S. Attorneys LOVE IT because of how much money they make off of the practice.
As far as I'm concerned.... Attorneys suck worse then "Hobbyists"....
I am not here to please the society for their ludicrous demands.
I can show you more losers among those who call hobbyist's losers. They are also in miserable relationships, frustrated of not getting it and don't have the guts to go get it. So they call those who have the guts to get it "pathetic losers".
Making the oldest profession illegal in the US nothing more than the religion to control my life, I refuse to accept.
I have taken many lie detector test in my life and I cannot recall a single hobby related question. Suppose you adhere to posted speed limits 100% of the time.
Your real problem is an overacting "worry about every little thing" gene. Get rid of it and you will be just fine. Everything is not literal dude!
Lots of interesting thoughts and varying opinions. I definitely wish society, my family, pop culture etc would get over the stigma so I can stop playing along with hooker jokes (some more offensive than others), pop culture's portrayal of being a provider as a death wish, and I can stop leading a quadruple life and spending hours and hours ensuring my identities stay separate.
I have no patience with hand-wringing about how mean "society" is. If it really bothers you, instead of complaining about it on a mongering website, why not confront society?
You know, you are right about me having sorry about everything gene. I seriously want to try out the hobby, but haven't because I keep on worrying too much.
Yeah, I did pass the lie detector test even though I have done few bad things. Like downloading stuff illegally and of course speeding. But I have also heard some people getting caught during their polygraph which of course set of my worry wart gene.
I will admit if I stop worry about stuff like this my life would be much easier and happier!
Posted By: anonymousfun
I am not here to please the society for their ludicrous demands.
I can show you more losers among those who call hobbyist's losers. They are also in miserable relationships, frustrated of not getting it and don't have the guts to go get it. So they call those who have the guts to get it "pathetic losers".
Making the oldest profession illegal in the US nothing more than the religion to control my life, I refuse to accept.
I have taken many lie detector test in my life and I cannot recall a single hobby related question. Suppose you adhere to posted speed limits 100% of the time.
Your real problem is an overacting "worry about every little thing" gene. Get rid of it and you will be just fine. Everything is not literal dude!
And I agree with just about all of them. I like the honest, no bullshit aspect of this and it's also hot as hell. The girls I've been seeing are absolutely great, with hardly any exceptions. But don't even bother to try explaining ANY of this to a civvie of either sex. They are totally bound up in their prejudices. They don't want to get it and they never will. Only on the boards will anyone ever get it.
there are the majority of the men you will find here, who engage in honest, mature quid pro quo relationships with consenting adult women. but then you have the other side: all the men who drive out to the seedy side of town during their lunch break or after work, cruise the streets and illicit a quick blowjob from a girl not yet old enough to be in high school, or waves a $20 to whatever soliciting female is willing to degrade herself the most...typically a woman who is starving and drug-addicted. these so-called men make up a huge proportion of the "hobby," and society is quite right to find them amoral and repulsive. personally i believe such males to be criminals of the highest order, for the damage they do to young girls and women which is irreparable, and for which they care nothing at all. i recall watching a documentary about street prostitution and there was a segment in which some men were attending a court-ordered "john school." the instructor was informing these men that the average age of a prostitute on those particular streets was 13, that they had almost always been physically and sexually abused, and about the high rate of murder against these young women as well as the high suicide rate. throughout the class at least half of the men were laughing and joking...it meant nothing to them whatsoever. i had rarely felt so angry.
so while some of us like to believe that the world of companionship is limited to the gilded halls of TER and Eros escorts and professional agencies employing strong, independent women, the reality is that this side is still a relatively small segment of this hobby.
I totally agree, so you feel all street prostitution is immoral.
how do you feel about craigslist and backpage level prostitution there are obvious some street level girls,but then you have some idependents woman on there as well.
also I agree everybody should be over 18 hell i would say even 25 but in regards to drugs.
do you think sex with any adult woman for pay that is drug addicted is wrong what if she just does soft drugs liked weed and coke. also if I give a crackhead 15 bucks to shovel my snow after a storm am I wrong.
I would never mess with a street girl period because its so seedy and I can afford the higher class,but I understand everybody cant do that.
Im just trying to get a gauge on your morality meter.
for me the line between moral and immoral is very broad and clear. any person who seeks to take advantage of those most desperate and in need, who wishes to get as much as he can for as little as he can, and has no knowledge or concern for the damage he leaves in his wake...that is the most vile form of humanity. and certainly all street prostitution does not fall under such a sad and dark umbrella, but a tremendous portion of it does.
so in your proposed scenario of giving a crack addict a few bucks to shovel your snow, yes i would consider that immoral because you are seeking to get the job done for as little as possible, and do not care about the fact that you are only contributing to the pain of a sick and desperate person. i may (and have) offer such a person a hot meal and a warm winter coat, and the number and address to a local shelter, in exchange for some very light work because i understand we must all retain our dignity. but i would certainly not light their crack pipe, which would be the equivalent of giving them cash.
The key point in Lili's post was about guys that don't care about the damage they leave in their wake. In other words, their personal pleasure is all that matters to them, and they have no concern for how it impacts those around them. This is almost the exact definition of narcissism.
I feel sorry for the unsuspecting women that you guys see.
and civie women... who control the sex in a relationship & through it the man, are threatened by single available women, providers & anyone else who threatens their control. The politians & PC police, go along with this because they too are corrupt, pussy controlled...
Not any more they don't. (unless you let them) Buck up, boys It is about time we men took back the beach. For those of you who may misunderstand, I do not mean in any way to suggest anything negative about anyone, particularly women. (love them) I just don't understand why anyone would allow themselves to be controlled by "political correctness or to be dictated to about how to act for fear of peer pressure. I don't know about any others But for me, I have had it with this "correctness" It is killing us. The one who has the gold makes the rules. Respect is a 2 way street. It isnot a right. It is earned. 2 cents
First of all, you posted this question here on TER and you will obviously get biased responses. You know that. Frankly, I think this is what you want: a little reassurance and maybe a couple excuses that you can use in the future. Let me elaborate.
Why does society find the hobby so disgusting? - If you really want to understand the reason behind that "disdain" you mentioned, I suggest trying an open local board. I bet answers will range from religious references to health risks. This answers your first question.
Are we harming anyone? - This is the most honest question I have seen on this board. I think the answer is "yes." We are harming societal rules, religious taboos, and maybe even hurting the public health. This does not even include second hand damages such as promoting prostitution at an early age. We take risks to get this pleasure and pay the price... literally.
All in all, I don't see the general society approving this hobby soon, if ever. This hobby is illegal in most states so I suggest finding another way to get around that lie detector test you mentioned. Moving to NV can be a solution
I have actually done some research on this by browsing relationship forums on other sites. Some commentors did just say I won't pay for sex or would be too disgusted to be with person. Most response revolved around STDs and harmful to prostitutes. I think those boards are biased to other side, I doubt there any place where you will get a balanced answer.
Posted By: ziggu
I think it's time to use my alias.
First of all, you posted this question here on TER and you will obviously get biased responses. You know that. Frankly, I think this is what you want: a little reassurance and maybe a couple excuses that you can use in the future. Let me elaborate.
Why does society find the hobby so disgusting? - If you really want to understand the reason behind that "disdain" you mentioned, I suggest trying an open local board. I bet answers will range from religious references to health risks. This answers your first question.
Are we harming anyone? - This is the most honest question I have seen on this board. I think the answer is "yes." We are harming societal rules, religious taboos, and maybe even hurting the public health. This does not even include second hand damages such as promoting prostitution at an early age. We take risks to get this pleasure and pay the price... literally.
All in all, I don't see the general society approving this hobby soon, if ever. This hobby is illegal in most states so I suggest finding another way to get around that lie detector test you mentioned. Moving to NV can be a solution
In that case, I take the first part (about you asking question on TER) back. You obviously did your homework.
As far as the excuse of not paying for sex: Now that you reminded. I heard that many times. I think it is one of the best answers out there. It is confident and covers all of the bases. It also prevents future discussion because if you argue you have to admit that you are a loser.
Like some of the commentators above, I don't believe dating to hot women is free. I might even be saving some money with hobbying. I dated a few (yes just a few) hotties before. I think they all did cost more expensive than $300 per poon. That's why I said I may be saving Maybe I am too generous when it comes to women.
Anyways, congratulations for the best question I have seen here on this board. And I also appreciate great answers (not all) above.
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Maybe I am too generous when it comes to women.
