i wish i could be like that...
i also learnt that friendships are important and take nourishing and time just like real sexual relationships....
What I value now are my friendships. I will not be in another committed relationship of the traditional type ever again (co-habitating etc.). If I want a sexual connection, well that is easy to fulfill. And no matter how good the sex is, I can still walk away knowing that I value me and my autonomy more than what I have experienced in the past in the trad relationship.
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 2:01:17 PM
being in love makes you feel non-stop natural high, but you also run risk of terrible come down....you become vulnerable...is it risk worth taking?do we even have any control over it?
The funny thing about the Prime Directive (as defined in Star Trek) is that it was created after realizing that negative consequences will result no matter the intentions, but Picard (a stalwart defender of the PD) broke the PD on several occasions because of his human nature to sympathize.
The point is that I'm not sure if falling in love will make you stronger or weaker in THIS hobby, and I think a lot providers and clients try to avoid falling in love, but the difficulty of separating P4P and emotions maybe more difficult than a lot of us are willing to admit. Especially when you consider that we still are dedicating books, songs, movies, and holidays to the subjective of love even after several millennia.
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 2:23:10 PM
In this hobby, the rules are very different and very high risk. Then again this is an adventure, so it goes with the territory.
Love Star Trek! lol!
If you've found the right one, one does have to let themselves become vulnerable. The only control we have is to put our faith that the other person doesn't seek to exploit it. Trust is, IMHO a cornerstone is any committed relationship. Erode that trust and it's like a house of cards that will simply crumble.
.....just easier that way 
to determine the difference
That can be a tricky one, indeed.
Even if things don't work out (And let's face it, more times than not they don't.) there is the loving memory of the good times. Face the end of it with the attitude of: If could have been, but I would have never known if I hadn't given it a chance.
The Beatles wrote a particularly poignant mini-song at the end of Abbey Road:
And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to
The love you make.
And it's so true too
...and you are working throught it on this board.
Fine with me if you are, but it appears this thread may be cathartic for you?
And when he was in P4P love he'd lift the gal up in the air. I guess at the time he was on an endorphin high.
Steph xoxo
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 5:57:50 AM
If you can deal with love without allowing it to make you go crazy or bring out your worst characteristics, then no doubt it can make you stronger.
Paired with an immature mind or an unstable emotional makeup ... then it can be a dangerous thing to all involved. 
It's all up to the individual and how he/she chooses to use it.
The risk of love not lasting forever is not the important risk to concern yourself with. The point is that love (as an emotion) is such a strong feeling because of the promise/illusion of its immutability. So, there's 100% positivity that you'll get that feeling as long as it lasts, and should one party decide to end the relationship, THAT party shouldn't experience the sense of loss...so there's only a 50% probability that the jilted one will be you. Less if factor in the possibility that the breakup will mutually agreed on and that both parties will be glad and gleeful with the prospect of getting away from each other.
Shouldn't love be assessed it terms of its intensity rather than its potential longevity? The first is a know and the second is an unknown. And then of course, there's the outside chance that your particular love will lady forever. That still happens now and then. But it shouldn't matter too the point that it causes discomfort.
it beats lots of other threads I have seen lately.
I don't make personal decisions based on whether they will make me stronger or weaker... I reserve that criteria for business and financial matters. If I am going to make a decision to pursue a relationship based on that criteria - then I am not in love... so the question obviates the answer.
Been a VERY long time (decades..) since I got hit with the "lightning bolt". I really don't see that ever happening again. But I do remember that there's no control over it. Thinking back on it - probably hormones....
"Love stinks!" - J. Geils Ban
-- eom --
It is a great high but all highs are hard to maintain forever. It's like a drug. And yes, it's hard to control the high ...
I was madly in love with my ex for years, but that mellowed then life got in the way. Look at all the clients you have. If that high was there and the sex is good, well, you might find you'd not be as busy.
Good luck, you're young, beautiful and intelligent. Every (almost?) man's dream. If I was younger (a lot) I'd try to share your heart ....
but what young fox wants an older dude, even a great guy like me.
See you soon? 😕
is vast. Guys can hobby and conceal it much easier from the "love of their life" but providers don't enjoy the same freedom. How could they maintain their business, the in and out, the calls, the texts, the emails, marketing themselves on the boards, etc. with their hubby in the other room/in the same house? Or they can share their career with their SO. That's a tough one even for guys to say they can look beyond it. Their career requires time and privacy, two commodities providers in relationships have considerably less than we guys.
I certainly empathize with you, Octavia as well as other women I've known wrestling with the same challenge.
You know I'd be really happy sharing time with you again, but would be happier if you or other providers found someone to share their life with if that was what they wanted. Guys too.
well-said, i agree with what you said...
if anybody cares about details...in my particular situation though, he knew what i do for living before we met...he was real gentlemen and courted me for a while before we had sex, so i knew he was not trying to get a freebi...and my work was never an issue, in fact he was turned on reading my reviews...his ex found out about me and wanted him back, since they have been together longer they have stronger bond, i guess i stood no chance...
I certainly empathize with you, Octavia as well as other women I've known wrestling with the same challenge.
You know I'd be really happy sharing time with you again, but would be happier if you or other providers found someone to share their life with if that was what they wanted. Guys too.
but I think you were played. Anything more would be discussed empatheticaly between two people. Not that you'd care to
who was used to get an old girlfriend back. Women do this too. BTW, how did she even find out?
You'll be fine but be careful of a wolf in sheep's clothing. I bet he got plenty of nonP4P sex after you both became friends. Do the math?
Tough love on my part? Maybe. But you're a young woman and sometime we all think we know more about affairs of the heart that we just haven't had the time to learn about. Each liason brings experience to the decision making process. I'm still learning. We all are. Several men here have posted about their 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriages. Even experience isnt a pergect teacher. Love isn't science.
So I post this because .... I'm sweetcheeks. A friend.
Than not loved at all is utter rubbish.
It hurts losing someone.
Id rather not go through it again.
today i feel the same way...
It hurts losing someone.
Id rather not go through it again.
Its not uncommon to confuse lust with love. Love should not make you feel high or sad, that is obsession & lust. Love should make you feel more secure and at peace. Its unreasonable to be so agitated over just one person and call that love. True love to me is finding someone who tolerates you and you tolerate them with minimal arguing and unhappiness for a long period of time.
Well, I should be specific, romantic love.
I believe in parental love, or love of ones pets.
But love between partners, no. I mean just look at this microcosm of society, the vast majority of hobbyists in here have a wife/partner and yet they are betraying that wife/partner participating in the hobby. I'm not judging, far be it for me to judge anyone. But lets call it what it is, you can't claim that you love someone and then betray them over and over again. The person I've just described is "stuck".
Let's examine the mainstream, how many couples who you know/meet IRL who have been together for an extended period of time (say 10 years or more), how many of those couples are really still in love? Not many, most couples that I know who have been together for that long bitch and complain about one another on a regular basis. They too are "stuck".
I too was "stuck" once, I discovered how manipulative my ex was and how much she enjoyed manipulating everyone in her life and saw how ugly that was, I left and got "un stuck".
Now, I know for sure, that every adult is only interested in what they can get (tangible and intangible) from other people. And so this life makes perfect sense, we get what we want, she gets what she wants and both parties are completely aware of the dynamic. There is no bullshit, nothing more to gain than the objectives of the relationship, and that is fucking perfect.
What's love got to do with it?
There is a small, very, very, very small percentage that, for them, they do experience the romantic love and can keep it going decade after decade. How in the hell they do, I have no idea.
In addition to your OP, I feel that "love" is chemical and like all drugs, the high wears off and those involved are continuously trying to chase the love dragon.
The companionable love you speak of for ones parents and pets is more realistic as there is not the chemical involvement, at least in my experience, that one experiences with attraction. Not a shrink or a neurobiologist, just some anecdotal thoughts via my experiences.
everything you said, made sense to me
In addition to your OP, I feel that "love" is chemical and like all drugs, the high wears off and those involved are continuously trying to chase the love dragon.
The companionable love you speak of for ones parents and pets is more realistic as there is not the chemical involvement, at least in my experience, that one experiences with attraction. Not a shrink or a neurobiologist, just some anecdotal thoughts via my experiences.
Good job of making sense of my senseless babbling.
Just romance. That's just a small part of what a real relationship is.
The ones who manage to partners for life, and it's more than just a small percentage, did so because they didn't quit on each other when things got hard. They took their vows to actually mean something.
Today, marriage is disposable. Why work to strengthen it when you can call it quits so much easier.
It's a given that all love is going to end, and you're going to have periods of loneliness. Some longer than others. It's the same thing with sex to a lesser degree. If we keep coming back for more, our experiences have made us stronger. If we shy away from love because of the potential loneliness, we are weaker.
I have felt more alone and lonely while in a relationship than I ever have being on my own. I find I have more strength alone than in a relationship.
What I value now are my friendships. I will not be in another committed relationship of the traditional type ever again (co-habitating etc.). If I want a sexual connection, well that is easy to fulfill. And no matter how good the sex is, I can still walk away knowing that I value me and my autonomy more than what I have experienced in the past in the trad relationship.
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 2:01:17 PM
You're on a roll.
I agree 100%, I am so happy just being me, in all my frailty and strengths. I am today, more true to myself than I have ever been in my entire life. Consequently, I am the happiest that I have ever been.
Well said darlin.
I hope you get over the rejection sometime.
Look in a mirror and tell yourself...
Honestly, the qualities you describe; being happy on your own, not needing a relationship to define you, valuing friendships.
... These are all qualities that I think a person needs to have, at least to a degree, before they can ever truly be happy with another person. And it's something I think women, in particular, need to experience at some point in their lives.
Feeling more alone in a relationship suggests to me a person who still defines too much of their fulfillment within the context of another person. If you're truly content with yourself, then the other person should have no bearing on how lonely or non-lonely you feel. They're just sort of like a good friend who's around a lot. -- something you mentioned that you value.
I think if you found the right person, i.e. someone non-traditional who sees the world in a similar way ... you'd probably be ridiculously happy together!
very nice response...kudos
Honestly, the qualities you describe; being happy on your own, not needing a relationship to define you, valuing friendships.
... These are all qualities that I think a person needs to have, at least to a degree, before they can ever truly be happy with another person. And it's something I think women, in particular, need to experience at some point in their lives.
Feeling more alone in a relationship suggests to me a person who still defines too much of their fulfillment within the context of another person. If you're truly content with yourself, then the other person should have no bearing on how lonely or non-lonely you feel. They're just sort of like a good friend who's around a lot.
-- something you mentioned that you value. I think if you found the right person, i.e. someone non-traditional who sees the world in a similar way ... you'd probably be ridiculously happy together!
love is when you think about that person before you go to bed and when you wake...thought about that person get you through day and tough times...love is when you dream about future plans that include the person you love...love is when you crave to spend every minute of your day cuddling with the person or doing stuff together...and when it is over, every time thoughts about that person crosses your mind you feel sting in your chest and your eyes water...
And it's the kind of love I experienced when I was in my 20's.
It wasn't until my 30's that I woke up to the realization that there are better and more comfortable forms love can take that DON'T involve obsessing over the person.
Or maybe just a more comfortable kind if obsession. Butterflies are good, but tightess in the chest and short of breath isn't.
i wish i could be like that...
i also learnt that friendships are important and take nourishing and time just like real sexual relationships....
What I value now are my friendships. I will not be in another committed relationship of the traditional type ever again (co-habitating etc.). If I want a sexual connection, well that is easy to fulfill. And no matter how good the sex is, I can still walk away knowing that I value me and my autonomy more than what I have experienced in the past in the trad relationship.
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 2:01:17 PM
by a 48 years old civie, who dumped me because his ex of 2 years wanted him back ...
i do feel unwanted and inferior, but i am strong and will bounce back
but not sure i want to feel pain again or chase that high again, but then again not sure how much control i have over such things
honestly, because a whore makes things so much simpler ..
As does being a hobbyist
Unwanted or inferior, this guy made a choice, you are ultimately powerless to over his choice and you should not allow his choice to reflect on you. I see compassion and a good heart in the words of your posts, not everyone has that. You should be proud of that.
Be yourself, no matter what happens no one can take that away from you.
Try not to let it get u too down. You seem to be a compassionate person who has a lot going for her. Better days are ahead !
3 fucking times now!
Not sure it exists!
Well at least for me.
53 years. I can remember only 1 time that we had a disagreement but I can't remember what it was about. It lasted for a couple of hours and we made up. We enjoyed a healthy sex life until she fell ill and died after 2 years. It took me 4 years to decide that I needed feminine companionship and started to date providers. I have been lucky in my choices and even though I see only one I remain friends with 2 others who have retired.
Love has made me stronger and weaker but I'm not complaining.
There are no absolutes, you are truly evidence of a very small minority and even my calloused heart envies you for what you had.
I tried for many years to find that which you described you had with your wife, my conclusion is that I don't believe in romantic love, albeit romantic love for me. And that realization has been very liberating for my soul.
Kudos to you.
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 5:29:49 PM
Times change, expectations change, so many social things change it is small wonder that marriages don't last as long as they did in the time when "Till death do us part" was more likely. Of the 4 couples who were our college friends, every one stayed together until death of one. In my case it had nothing to do with religion. In fact, we were married in the chapel of a church and I haven't set foot in a church since.
Great post sir
Nice post
Damn. I'm sorry Cooper.
Your post made me incredibly sad. I can't even begin to understand what that was like for you...
Love has made me stronger and weaker but I'm not complaining.
Thank you for compassion. It was hard to take but now I look back and remember all the fun things we did together. I'm a photographer and have thousands of our travels and fun things we did. My sexual needs are met with a lovely lady who is more than just my ATF.
But everyone's on this romantic love trip. It's a hype, a big fucking racket.
I'd rather have a few close friends than a 'significant other'.
-- Modified on 12/20/2015 7:29:52 PM
Interesting perspective. Care to elaborate
Self - love : discovering your worth and what makes you as a person happy instead of following what society deems necessary for happiness (money, romantic relationships, etc). Your own purpose or lack thereof
True love : someone who truly wants nothing more for you to be happy and find fulfilment or self love. They can be anyone - friend, family or even a significant other but don't carry the expectations and stigma (I tread lightly with the word) of a what is a 'traditional' relationship.
Today people are so hard pressed to finding a soul mate and someone to complete them, give them love and affection because they've been brainwashed that romantic love will complete them. A lot of people truly believe that in a romantic relationship you give everything to someone else and take risks for 'love'. They think that when the other lashes out that they're broken and go so far as to change themselves and manipulate in order to be with someone who deems them 'worthy' -- this is not love. This is desperation and the sad bearings of someone who doesn't understand them self or what love is.
I don't jump headlong into a ltr without calculating risk or understanding that I will have to compromise and frankly, I don't like compromise. I refuse to give up everything for a person who 'loves' me just to say I've been in love.
Before anyone wants to jump on here and tell me I'm jaded. Far from it. I've been with the same girl for 5 years. In a perfect world she'd be my soulmate. She's aware of my hobby, my dating casually while we've been together and we have explored polyamory together and separately. She's the best thing that's ever happened to me besides the hobby. But she knows she can leave anytime she wants, I'm not promising her forever or a house and kids. I wake up every morning knowing that there's a possibility she will call me up and say, "Deuces, can't do this anymore" & vice versa. We got a good thing going, I'm not gonna fuck it up by filling her head with sweet nothings. She listens to me bitch and in return I get to hear her moan. What the fuck more could a gal ask for ?
...and then I've dated 'men'. Ha. That's a story for another time -- I'll leave you with my article and you guys flame away. Just got home from seeing Creed, highly recommend
I would tend to agree with your definitions of self love and true love.
Some are of the belief that they need some to complete them. I'm of the opinion that I don't want or need some to complete me, but rather some who complements or enhances me. Someone who adds to my life and vice versa. We aren't supposed to give up everything for a person, but there are compromises to be made and sometimes we sacrifice certain things. Relationships are fluid and one has to sometimes make adjustments. One has to determine for themselves what those are
The mental and physical relationships here have kept me some what sane for the past three years. I tend to agree some with you but disagree also. Romantic and love are neither inclusive or exclusive, you can have or be one without the other.
And my conservative upbringing aside I think that "significant other" cheapens the meaning in trying to avoid the stigma of being in a relationship that others may not approve of. It is my preference to be introduced just with just a name, without having you (figuratively you) explain or justify the relationship.
You are right. I wish I had a close friend here, it is tough being part of the furniture in some one else's life.
..."It is my preference to be introduced just with just a name, without having you (figuratively you) explain or justify the relationship. "....
I loathe being referred to as the "girlfriend". I find it smacks of ownership. I will not refer to anyone I choose to spend some of my time with, with a label like that.
How do you define love? There is this lady that I will say that I love. I will defend her. I will help her. there is almost nothing that I would not do for her. Sex is absolutely out of the question. She is in a committed relationship with another woman. That relationship is one of the best things to ever happen to her. So what is love?
That's love.
You don't have to have sex to have love.
Sex quickens the bond, and lust is frequently mistaken for the other.
Just as most of us here can have sex without love, it's 100% possible for the other way around.
…so in a lot of ways it’s a learned phenomenon.
But, be aware about forming attachments and then keeping score as they are pitfalls to jealousy, anger and fear, which are unpleasant emotions. (Sex or no sex.
What makes you think humans have no control over their emotions?
I believe we do, or have control over the choices we make with accordance to our emotions.
I didn't say that. Just Love. Tell me that people can control that emotion and I'll call Bullshit.
Have you ever chose to stop loving someone?
..in the attached link.
The triangular theory of love is a theory of love developed by psychologist Robert Sternberg:
1.Intimacy – Which encompasses feelings of attachment, closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.
2.Passion – Which encompasses drives connected to both limerence and sexual attraction.
3.Commitment – Which encompasses, in the short term, the decision to remain with another, and in the long term, plans made with that other.
I hope the above gives some insight. (I remember this theory from one of my psyche classes in college and it’s worth a revisit.) Also, check out the "Forms of Love," further down in the article.
BTW: #2 is still my favorite—the ultimate high
nice insightthank you
The triangular theory of love is a theory of love developed by psychologist Robert Sternberg:
1.Intimacy – Which encompasses feelings of attachment, closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.
2.Passion – Which encompasses drives connected to both limerence and sexual attraction.
3.Commitment – Which encompasses, in the short term, the decision to remain with another, and in the long term, plans made with that other.
I hope the above gives some insight. (I remember this theory from one of my psyche classes in college and it’s worth a revisit.) Also, check out the "Forms of Love," further down in the article.
BTW: #2 is still my favorite—the ultimate high!
My fiance gives meaning to my life, there is no man I will ever love more than him. Being in love complicates your life in this hobby as you are hurting your SO everytime you do this. I'm always high (In love) I'm always told I'm beautiful and I have everything every woman could possibly dream of.
i love this artist
if you like Blues, check her out
Sia - Aliv