Here`s how Bush could have stolen the election............
He could have told everyone the election was going to be held Wednesday. That way he`d be the only person in the country to vote. You crack me up Harry...lol.

It may or may not have been outright stolen (although my view is that it WAS), the FACT is, there WAS an uncontrovertable statistical bias in the breakdown of which areas used punch-card ballots, and which areas used other, less error-prone methods.  The Punch-card districts were HEAVILY Democratic.  And a MUCH higher percentage of punch-card votes were discarded due to error than were votes tabulated by any other method (there were approximately 50,000 punch-card ballots un-counted due to error, compared to around 10,000 of all other types of ballots).  The statistical analysis I've seen is that this anomaly was responsible for AT LEAST a 4000 vote bias against Gore in a state of several MILLION votes, due to the Democratic leanings in the districts where punch-cards were used.  And most of the counts indicate that Bush's margin was between 400 and 1000 votes.  Face it - whether it was due to fraud or simple negligence of the voting commissioners in Florida (who happened to be appointed by Jeb Bush), George W. Bush is ONLY in office because of voting irregularities in the state of Florida.  And the Supreme Court's unwillingness to get to the bottom of this.
All the Republican yammering to the contrary will NEVER change that fact.  They won, but NOT legitimately, and they will NEVER have legitimacy for Bush's Presidency, no way, no how, NEVER.

...now you will get a bunch of people telling you to stop crying!  That is usually all the republicans can say in reponse to facts such as these.

I wish I could find the article but I can`t. It said there were more flawed ballots in the city of Chicago than in the hole state of Florida. You guys hang your hats on the ballot issue like it`s something new. You can`t honestly believe that every vote has been counted correctly in every election can you? It just feels worse for you now because it was such a close vote. No state nor any person is perfect, we do the best we can. This time it went against you.
As far as Bush being legitamate....... Check behind the desk in the Oval Office. Who`s sitting there?

Just curious, Amp, how have you benefited by Witless's presidency?

Here's a little food for thought, from yesterday's Times:

Which I could actually deal with if he wasn't the single most incompetent moron ever to hold the office (Worse than after Reagan got addled by Alzheimer's in his last 1-2 years in office).  And not only is he incredibly incompetent, he is incredibly incompetent during dangerous times, which HE has made more dangerous by thumbing his nose at all of our Allies.

So the best defense you got is that it was YOUR TURN to steal this one?  And the Dems stole others?  Why don't you write to George Dumbya Bush, and suggest that he use that in his stump speach for the next election and see what happens?

I`m looking but I can`t see where I said that. Don`t misunderstand me, I know Bush rightfully won and I`m happy about it.

I know it dosent say anywhere this forum can not address political issues. Therefore I suppose the sort of thing addressed on this thread today can be expected when thousands of people have an opinion and a means to express it. That is, a few are going to tell the world whether anyone wants to know or not. Having said that, the degree of vennom and outright hatred expressed by the left about almost anything that doesnt go their way these days is an eye opener. It puts into question their often stated supposed love and caring for their fellow man's wefare we hear so much about.

That`s right. As has been said..... for the left to win everything has to go badly. It seems as though they want disaster in one form or another either here or overseas to save them in the next election. I would hope they would re-examine that way of thinking for the good of the country but I seriously doubt they will.
Hey lefties......anybody see the new unemployment numbers? I`m sure you`ll disagree but it seems that the economy (including jobs) is getting a bit better. Damn, don`t you just hate that? Isn`t it awful when things go well under a republican?

And, BTW, venom is spelled with one "n".  Frankly, I am not from the left.  I am from the center.   Getting us into a war on false pretenses is EXACTLY the type of thing that SHOULD bring on venom - It's the single worst thing a leader can do.  Same is true with mortgaging the future of our country for near term bennies for your political allies.  Similarly, making the U.S. into an international pariah state, and squandering the moral high ground that our nation had developed WORLDWIDE, over THE ENTIRE TWENTIETH CENTURY, by creating the doctrine of pre-emptive war, and jamming it in the faces of our allies.

Meanwhile, we just came off of 8 years of fillibustering the agenda of an entire administration that WAS legitimately elected, simply because the President liked to get a little consensual BJ on the side, and didn't think that was any of the Public's business.  THAT constitutes unwarranted venom, in my book.

What's gone well under Bush's Watch?  

We've been attacked by Terrorists with 3000 deaths on OUR soil

We've turned a balanced budget into the worst deficit in HISTORY, and the next generation is guaranteed to have to pay for this with huge taxes, because the administration lacks the will to begin to pay for it NOW.

We've seen the first net LOSS of jobs since Herbert Hoover and the great depression.

Our international prestige is the LOWEST it's been in a CENTURY, and most of rest of the Free World now Despises and Fears us.

Quite a record of achievement, don't you think?

I guess, then, that it's just a damn shame that the Democrats which dominate those jurisdictions failed to modernize the voting methods.  Shakespearean, even.
    'Course, if one looks at the decisions regarding the California recall, and current litigation in Fairfax County, Virginia, it seems that more "modern" ballot tally methods are no more, and may be less, reliable than those used in Florida in 2000.
    BTW, Bush also got into office because Algore couldn't win his own state, because Slick Willie kidnapped a child and sent him back to Castro's tender mercies, and because I wore my lucky underwear on Election Day.
    You Lefties keep spewing these Sore/Loserman sentiments, and watch the GOP roll over you in 2004 (kinda like Jeb rolled over the Demoncrat in 2002).

Ampallang,
    Don't forget Missouri, too.  Or Illinois in 1960, where Cook County swung the vote to JFK.  The difference?  Even Nixon was enough of a statesman to avoid the constitutional crisis that Algore's overweaning ambition caused him to precipitate.  The fact is, Algore wanted Democrats counting only Democrat ballots in Democrat jurisdictions.  Our Leftie friends ignore his efforts to disqualify military, and therefore more Republican, ballots.

Thanks Number 6. If you`d like you can search all my previous posts and keep yourself busy proofreading all day. I`m sure there are plenty more.
The Times huh? That`s objective I`m sure. I always get a kick out of the Times and their editorial page. I guess living in So. Calif. has something to do with the amount of left leaning letters to the editor but I like to count them up anyway. It always seems very slanted in the letters they choose to publish....like 80/20 in favor of liberal views. I`m not complaining, just wondering out loud.
Thanks again Number 6. I should have written these in Microsoft Word and spellchecked them. But since I didn`t if you wouldn`t mind, could you continue to point out my mistakes. Have a great day.

........when there have been more jobs lost in this country since Bush took office in 40 years.

If you lose $100,000 gambling, but then win $10,000 back, do you tell everyone how great your win was?

There's nothind "center" about you, sdstud.  At least have the courage of your convictions.  Along with "Sexual Ethics," by Bill Clinton, and "Legal Ethics," by Hitlary Clinton, is "Great Moderate Leaders."
    And "mortgaging the future of our country for near term bennies for your political allies"?  Demoncrats and "moderates" have been doing so to buy votes for decades.
    As for legitimately elected, even in 2000, GWB got more votes than Slick Willie, and a much higher percentage of the vote than did WJC in 1992.
    Having known more than a few Rhodes Scholars, I gotta say that I'm less impressed by one who didn't even get his degree than I am by a guy who graduated from Yale, and earned a Harvard MBA.  And what advanced degree did Algore ever obtain?  Compared to how many he started?

Al Gore was NEVER my chosen candidate in 2000, John McCain was.  I merely defaulted to Gore when the meager choice was between him and Bush, and frankly, that was a Three (Gore) and a Zero (Bush) on a 10 point scale.  And Clinton's a 6, McCain's a 7 and Kerry's an 8 in my personal book.  There hasn't been a better choice to come around since Harry Truman.

Remember Truman's Motto:  

"The Buck Stops with the stuff Clinton did that didn't hit until I was in Office"

Oops, you mean that's NOT Truman's Motto?

I guess we can turn this into a name calling thread but that`s not allot of fun. But if you want to we can.
Bush takes office and is trust into a position of dealing with an unimaginable attack. I wonder if they put all that together under his watch. I wonder how much got past Clinton. I wonder if they would have called the attack off if Gore had won. It was going to happen one way or the other no matter who was leading this country. The deaths can`t be blamed on Bush and for you to insinuate such a thing is disgusting and frankly, stupid.
Do you remember hearing about all the jobs lost in the wake of 9/11? Not just in N.Y. but all across the country. Do you think you can blame Bush for that too? Not to mention the economy was failing in the last year of the Clinton administration and handed to Bush in already poor shape.
I wish he had a chance to lead under better circumstances just to see what he could have accomplished without the added difficulty of a massive, sudden job loss.

The CIA already HAD the reports that Al Queda was training to crash planes into buildings.  I agree, 9/11 was a terrible act against this country by our enemies.  It led to the Afghanistan war, which was totally justified.  Bush would have DESERVED the support he had when he conducted it, had he COMPLETED it.

However, we THEN went on a COMPLETELY UNRELATED adventure in Iraq, which has only served to STRENGTHEN Al Queda, squander the chance to defeat them totally in Afghanistan, and destroy BOTH our economic future over the next decade, and ALL the international and domestic goodwill that we had engendered from 9/11 and our position in the world up till then.

Wake up and smell the coffee.  The Bush administration has been a DISASTER for this country, and NOT because of 9/11, but rather, because 9/11 was used as a FALSE PRETENSE for everything that has happened in Iraq, and domestically since mid 2002.

The name of the man behind the desk, is George Washington Bush.
But who is really not the question you should be asking here. The question is WHAT?
Here are some Jeopardy styled answers:
What is a rich kid frat boy turned party animal drunk turned fundamentalist evangelical Christian on a Mission from God.
What is a fourth generation son of Power and Priviledge at the very highest levels of power.
What is a puppet beholden to Oil, Energy & Big Business interests who has directed over $75 BILLION DOLLARS in Am erican service contracts, military procurement contracts, and natural resource contracts (timber logging, drilling, etc) to companies with DIRECT links to his family.

I could go on and on, but you get my drift.

-- Modified on 2/9/2004 1:16:06 PM

"George W. Bush is ONLY in office because of voting irregularities in the state of Florida."

Well maybe one could say that. Of course, one might also consider that Al Gore was so out of touch that he managed to lose in his home state of Tennessee. Had he carried Tennessee, he would have won outright, irrespective of Florida.

No presidential candidate since George McGovern has managed to lose in his home state. Not Jimmy Carter in 1980, who carried all of six states (Georgia included); not Fritz Mondale who carried exactly ONE state (Minnesota) in 1984.

Had Al Gore been more attuned to his own state, he would be president today. Of course, the thought of President Gore on 9/11/01 is a terrifying thought indeed.

HAHAHAHA

hehehehe

found on http://www.seeyageorge.com

The jobs weren`t lost because of Bush policy. If you think they were then please share with us your information. I always hear about the massive job loss under Bush but nobody states the things he did to effect it. Please....share.
Many businesses were directly effected by 9/11, many more were indirectly effected. There were ripples all around this country. Everyone was fearful waiting for the next shoe to drop, travel was all but over except for those that couldn`t avoid it, tourism suffered greatly and the whole country was scared and unwilling to part with any significant amount of savings. That`s what I think happened. Lets hear what you say. Please.... back up your assertion that Bush is the great job buster and tell me what things he did specifically to cost thousands of Americans a job.

Do you really, truly, seriously believe that 9/11 would not have happened but for the results of the election of 2000?

Let's review, shall we.

First World Trade bommbing - 1993

Khobar Towers bombing - 1996

Bombing of American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania - 1998

Attack on USS Cole - 2000

All bin Laden operations. And who was in the White House during those years? Yes, the same Bill Clinton whose response to the embassy bombings was to fire some cruise missles at an empty camp in Afghanistan and a pharmaceutical factory in Khartoum, thus teaching bin Laden that his goon squads could attack what they wanted, where they wanted, with impunity.

(And let's not even consider the timing of the pointless cruise missle shots, on the very day that Bad Boy Bill desperately needed to divert attention from other "domestic" matters.)

Yep, no doubt about it. 9/11 just never would have happened but for GWB - DUH!

He spent us into the worst deficit in U.S. History, thus fundamentally weakening the capital markets perceptions of future profitability, hence leading to almost NO venture capital funding for the past 2 years.  

He has FAILED to exert any leadership whatsoever in getting domestic tourism back up Post 9/11.

He has discouraged free trade through a range of unwise tarrifs, particularly in steel, AND through the use of the Bully Pulpit to demean our European and Asian allies.

He turned a blind eye and a TOTAL lack of leadership with respect to the various stock scandals which have rocked Wall St over teh past 2 years, thus discouraging investment by non-millionaires into the stock market because they recognize that it's a rigged game.  Arguably, these stock scandals have had a MORE negative effect than 9/11 on the financial markets, and have acted as a substantial lag on the recovery.

He awarded substantial no-bid contracts to his cronies at Halliburton and Bechtel in the Iraq and Afghan wars, thus leading to substantial cost over-runs in the Iraq war, which is one of the largest contributors to the deficit.

He has failed to substantially use the Iraqui oil reserves to fund either the Iraqui post-war costs, OR to help lower oil prices domestically, which would act as a domestic economic stimulus.  Arguably, that's because his largest donors in the Oil industry would be less able to reap obscene profits if this were happenning.

When you're running an annual budget deficit of ~$1/2 trillion per year, in principle it should lead to considerable job creation. Alas, under the George W. budgets, such job creation has been exceptionally paltry. This is largely because of the majority of tax cuts (responsible for much of the deficit) going to the top 1%, who simply tend to salt it away as savings, except for the occasional foray to Tiffany's. The limited stimulus to the economy that came from tax "reform" was largely due to the middle class taking their child "rebates", and immediately putting that money back into economy by buying goods and services.

One example of how George W. is draining our econmy should suffice. There is now ample evidence that we didn't need to preemptively invade Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and the evidence that Colin Powell presented to the UN was trumped up, and not by our intelligence services. Saddam Hussein was undoubtedly a vicious dictator, but he also had been contained for a dozen years. The UN arms inspections, which reported no evidence of WMD (subsequently confirmed by David Kay), had been working and would have continued to neutralize Hussein into the forseeable future.

Besides the extremely unfortunate loss of life to both our armed services and Iraqis, the bill so far has been estimated at well over $100 billion. What could we have done with this money, instead? Well, the states have all been running massive budget deficits, and there have been nationwide cuts in all kinds of state activities. These include severe cuts to policing, firefighting, universities, state parks, libraries, etc. Putting that money to work instead to shore up the states, would have served two important roles: i) stimulating the overall economy; and ii) maintaining our quality of life.

Now wouldn't that be a better use of >$100 billion, than simply handing it over to Halliburton and their like in no-compete contracts?

-- Modified on 2/9/2004 6:49:23 PM

Dude-

I think it started when the right went nuts over Clinton - AND HE WAS REALLY A Right wing Dem!  Dems were stunned by the vitriol - especially when some GOP initiatives were being put into effect!

Since that slash and burn atteck seemed effective, dems took up the gauntlet and decided to attack Bush in the same manner- especially since there was so much more ammos lying around (Clinton was hard to attack politically-easy on personal issues- Bush is easily attacked on EVERYTHING).

The conservative in me hates bush for being a moron- the progressive in me hates him for being a fascist apologist.  The idiot in me hates him for purloining my position.  And to think I liked his dad... before he sold out the the wacko Christians!

Hillary is exactly the kind of easily demonized flash-point candidate that can get the Right wing energized and motivated the way Dumbya has done with the left side.  Frankly, a Kerry + Edwards ticket is EXACTLY the ticket that can and will haul Bush and Cheney down.

Both of us would have voted on Wed.  

I'm just telling you how to do it.  I didn't say that was how it was done or that it was done.

BTW,  If you follow my posts you will find me about the most political moderate you can find.  I am no liberal

If there is evidence that was done, somebody in Florida ought to go to jail.  It is fairly easy to check -- just get a ballot and see how it is printed compared to other paper ballots in the state.

Most election officals, not having nasty minds or knowing how to think statistically, wouldn't know what to look for.

The comment about other states having worse records about spoiled ballots doesn't mean anything given the electorial college.


Harry


-- Modified on 2/9/2004 2:54:11 PM

How have you profited from W's presidency the last four years? Has your business grown? Have you achieved greater personal wealth?

I'm hardly liberal. And the Times article conveniently forgot to mention that Grandpa Prescott was convicted of the Trading With The Enemy Act, a felony, for helping to bankroll Hitler in the mid-30s. True Americans understand dissent is very patriotic.

Here's a little present for all you red blooded neo-cons out there.

It makes me wonder how all the other people in Florida managed to punch the ballots doesn't it?   Something like 99.6% of the citizens of that state seemed to manage the maze of confusion in the ballot (that was designed by a Democrat)?

All elections and important issues should be decided by people who can't manage to punch a ballot.

That's why I support all the Motor-Voter laws:  I really really WANT people who are too dumb or lazy to figure out how to register to vote to decide issues based on the facts as laid out for them on MTV.



-- Modified on 2/9/2004 2:50:10 PM

The one thing I'm happy about:


No one who posts on TER is actually involved in running the country.

The fact you actually believe that is scary.  People should learn how to vote -- it is not difficult -- punch card or touchscreen computer -- just take it seriously and have half a brain and there won't be a problem.  Every election in every state has the same problems Florida had -- just happened to be the one that was exposed b/c it was so close.  

Personal responsibility -- something that many people need to come to grips with.

In any case, I will grant you that the Dems in Florida were at fault for allowing a situation in which the Repblicans were ABLE to steal the election from them.  No matter, it won't happen again.

Usually, the biggest moralizers are the biggest hypocrites.  I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if John Ashcroft gets his jollies cruising escort sites.

Kinda like when Henry Hyde and Newt and a couple of other Republicans who were leading the anti-Clinton charge in the Lewinsky affair had their own secret affairs with staffers come to light.  Their sh*t smelled just as bad as Clinton's, except it had the extra flavor of hypocrisy added.

... for free!!

-- Modified on 2/9/2004 3:24:24 PM

Oh .. you misunderstood.

OF COURSE they are ... ALL of 'em.  AND I'm sure they're paid-up VIP members here.   I didn't say people who SUBSCRIBE to TER

I said I', glad people who POST simplictic, black-or-white, my-guy-versus-your-guy claptrap don't run the country.

There are nuances to the culpabilities of the various participants.  And there will be nuances to the consequences that they will face from the electorate over time.

And, BTW, I may not run the country day to day, but on every election day, this nations leaders DO have to answer to me.  Because the Bush clan, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, et al notwithstanding, we DO live in a Democracy, and these types of things DO have a way of self-correcting over time.  Sometimes they over-correct, but eventually, they do correct themselves.  Such a correction will occur this November.  It might even be an over-correction, based on the degree that Bush has energized the opposition.

Dont be too sure about that! There are a lot of DC based guys on here. lol (You can always tell them by the way they spell).

Just for argument's sake I'll grant you there is a POSSIBILITY there was some sort of shenanigans in the FLORIDA election

How do you explain Gore not winning his own home state of Tennessee?

The people who knew him best and for the longest and who by rights ought to have voted for him just on a matter of principle...did not do so(what does THAT tell you?)

And if he HAD won Tennessee(and Tennessees 11 electoral votes)...Florida wouldn't of mattered in the least...Gore would be president right now with 271 electoral votes

Keep that in mind when reading about the next conspiracy theory about what MAY have happened in Florida

ABBA = Anyone But Bush Again!

-- Modified on 2/9/2004 5:59:19 PM

As a small business and corporate lender I can say that your arguement is flawed and uneducated.



--- He spent us into the worst deficit in U.S. History, thus fundamentally weakening the capital markets perceptions of future profitability, hence leading to almost NO venture capital funding for the past 2 years.

++++Deficits are not a bad thing first.  The only danger is if they continue to grow at such a large clip over the next year.  Don't measure it by gross amount but rather by rate of growth.  The reason you have not seen a large amount of capital lending is that while we were on a hangover from the late 90's, we got sucker punched on 9/11.  All that funny money flying around during the 90's made lenders and investors that much more intelligent.

---He has FAILED to exert any leadership whatsoever in getting domestic tourism back up Post 9/11.

+++ Gee I didn't know he was in charge of travel agencies now.  

---He has discouraged free trade through a range of unwise tarrifs, particularly in steel, AND through the use of the Bully Pulpit to demean our European and Asian allies.

+++ Hey you can blame unions for this one.

---He turned a blind eye and a TOTAL lack of leadership with respect to the various stock scandals which have rocked Wall St over teh past 2 years, thus discouraging investment by non-millionaires into the stock market because they recognize that it's a rigged game.  Arguably, these stock scandals have had a MORE negative effect than 9/11 on the financial markets, and have acted as a substantial lag on the recovery.

+++ The markets have and will weed this behavior out.  In addition the Sarbanes Oxley Act makes them accountable.

---He awarded substantial no-bid contracts to his cronies at Halliburton and Bechtel in the Iraq and Afghan wars, thus leading to substantial cost over-runs in the Iraq war, which is one of the largest contributors to the deficit.

+++Um for the record Clinton used these two firms almost exclusively in his regime because these two firms have greater economies of scale than any other could deliver.  As far as cost overruns go, this will be dealt with.

---He has failed to substantially use the Iraqui oil reserves to fund either the Iraqui post-war costs, OR to help lower oil prices domestically, which would act as a domestic economic stimulus.  Arguably, that's because his largest donors in the Oil industry would be less able to reap obscene profits if this were happenning.

+++He won't touch those reserves because those are the Iraqi people's and rightfully so.  We went there to liberate a people and not to pillage natural resources for our gain.

Yeah that's the ticket.  Somebody whose taken money from every swingin special interest group and a trial attorney.  Never seen a country sue its way to greatness.

Gore was simply too liberal for them.  There's no great conspiracy there.

A very similiar thing has been going on in New Mexico for many years.  There are some districts that have had the newest voting equipment and systems for years.  While other districts didn't have enough ballets for the voters that showed.

Funny thing, the districts where things worked right - HEAVILY Democratic.  And the districts where things are screwed up - Republican.  Oh New Mexico has traditionally voted Democratic for most elections.  Finally Bush only lost by a few hundred votes in NM.

Of course we still have dead people who vote in Chicago another Democratic region.

Some facts for Gore whiners - please read http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

CNN not normally considered a 'conservative' news source.

And here is a link to the study site itself.
http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/fl/index.asp

Sorry to tell you but Bush won.  He is the legal & legitimate president of the United States of America.  If you don't like it work for your favorite Democratic candidate and get him/her elected.

-- Modified on 2/9/2004 7:49:20 PM

..a bit of comic relief is welcome in these political threads where the level of vitriol is more and more palpable as the verbal jousting increases in intensity.  I have posted on some of these threads in the past and particualrly on those having to do with the war in Iraq. I have to say that it sometimes just gets too tedious to even read through these because of the level of almost unabated polarization that develops. Actually it seems as if it is always there and threads like this just make us more aware of this polarization.

As polarizing as these "debates" on this board can be political discussion should not be marginalized simply because some have such narrow tunnel vision that they simply can't see beyond there own propaganda and there own efforts at revision of reality.

I have to say that I am convinced that those of us who tend to be left of center are far more able to take that introspective look at ourselves and far more willing to question even those among us who may share somewhat similar views.

There are some on the right who seem to confuse the word "right"
as with respect to a position on the political spectrum with "right" as with respect to some absolute , as in absolute truth.
Nothing of course could be more distant from the truth. Those on the right have no lock on absolute truth. They do not own the moral high ground in this country. Their ranks filled with the
evangelical christian moralists are often those who show the least tolerance for those who have different views than their own. The current attorney general John Ashcroft could be the poster child for the hypocrisy that permeates right wing christian extremists who want to preach looking out for one another but then tend to practice something quite different.

I am convinced that if it were not for the events of 9-11 the Bush administration would have meandered through the past several years in mediocrity on its way to being relegated to the dust bin of history with little of any substance as its legacy.

Unfortunately the events of the past several years have brought a certain "tragic infamy" to this administration. Those on the right I am sure would prefer to paint it as super patriotism of the highest order. Well there are over 500 dead American service men and women as a result of this "super patriotism" and I would argue that this country is not a safer place to any significant degree as a result of the sacrifice of the lives of those brave young men and women. Notably we have not found the dreaded WMD that were used to largely "justify" this action in Iraq. This administration has essentially coined a new meaning for WMD, namely "weapons of mass deception" in this pathetic attempt to try and justify their actions.

The curent administration took its collective eye off the ball
when it decided to go after Saddam instead of focusing on Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda along the Pakistani border. I would submit that the terrorist groups associated with Osama bin Laden were then, and are now, a far greater threat to our national security than Saddam ever was. Sure Saddam was a brutal dictator
responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of his own people. It is largely the people of Iraq who are the beneficiaries of his demise far more so than the world as a whole.

Of course the hunt for bin Laden was not going as well as hoped for, it wasn't flashy enough. Therefore take on a standing army in Iraq which presents an easier target to deal with and get the focus off the slow progress in Afhanistan. Then of course there would be these lucrative no bid contracts for Halliburton and Bechtel. There's no oil in Afghanistan, just a tenacious network of terrorists who remain elusive to this day and who are as determinined as ever to harm us when the opportunity presents itself.

In my view it is time for a change but then of course I am only expressing my own personal view, a view influenced by the tragic loss of over 500 brave Americans.

"WE' need?????Maybe you left wing fanatics in socialist California....don't speak for me. I don't "need' either one of those clowns in White House. I for one am sick of liberals living on the coast ramming their socialist ideology down the throats of the rest of the country. I cannot fathom why people want higher taxes and more government that both parties, but primarily the Democrats are bringing us. You think Bush is "right wing"?? You've got to be kidding. Big government spending is what liberals love. There is no "right wing" conservative party in America today. All you have is left and farther left. I sure as hell don't "need" a Kerry/Edwards ticket (barf)...

You leftists will get your wish...HIllary Clinton will take power eventually and she will use the "police state" that "W" has put in place.  The political pendulum swings left to right and nothing changes...

Finally, BUSINESSES provide jobs; why are people crying to government about job creation or job loss???? Shows how people are conditioned to believe government is their provider and caretaker.

Some general reactions to this thread: Great posts Rustproof. When the Oval office door closes, VP Chaney and SOD Rumsfeld are sitting behind the desk. GWB is falling down and banging his head after swallowind a pretzel. There is no political left [of any influence] in the USA. Being only 45 degrees right of center, as apposed to 90 degrees, does not make a left wing.

Hey Pig

You know, you're right! Facts are like kryptonite to liberals. They destroy fictitous lies and spin spewed by GOP Bush thralls who run around in tights wearing codpieces imagining they are invulnerable and from another planet.

oh BTW Here is a FACT neocons seem to ignore.  The Bush campaign was the first to file a lawsuit in FL over the recounting, not the Gore campaign. Bush filed suit to STOP recounts.

It sure will be fun watching the Bush sympathizers/apologists whine and cry when the first Diebold voting machine is hacked and Bush's name is replaced with Saddam's.

It's been 875 days since Bush said he'd catch Osama bin Laden 'Dead or Alive!'

TET

next time pay me my royalties when you STEAL my lines.

Conservative morality must include copyright infringment.

I'm not saying there was a conspiracy in Tennessee nor do I think there was one in Florida

I DO note however that when it was Clinton running...Tennessee gave their votes to the Democrats

I'm adding a link to explain it better than I can

It wasn't a matter of Gore being too Liberal...it was a character issue...they simply didn't like the kind of man he had become

Keep in mind they had for the previous over 20 years sent him to Washington to represent them...they knew him better than the rest of the country and THEY would not support him to be President

I'm not a total fan of GWB myself but if the choice is between those two men I have no problem with Bush being President

IMO There was enough iffy things going on in the Florida election with plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides

I kind of get a kick out of those people who on one hand say how moronic Bush is and how his administration can't do ANYTHING right and yet those same "morons" also supposedly managed to STEAL the election from Gore

I agree with one thing they say...Bush did NOT win...Gore lost

Get over it already

I accept that YOU voted for Bush because you don't like Gore.  But in Tennessee, they voted for Clinton and against Gore simply because Clinton was much less liberal than Gore, and they knew it.  As I said earlier, Bush's illegitimate presidency has been CATASTROPHIC for the future of America, and I am very pleased to terminate it in November.

had Bush not been President.

9/11 was NOT the rationale for what presently ails our nation's economy.  We were WELL on the way to recovering from 9/11 by late 2002.  At THAT POINT, the Fiasco that Bush is responsible for truly ot into full swing with the Iraq War and Bush's imbecilic fiscal policy.

++++Deficits are not a bad thing first.

This is a total Crock.  Any deficit of the magnitude Bush has stuck us with will take MANY YEARS of either REAL tax increases, or Virtual tax increases through inflation in order to pay down.


+++ The markets have and will weed this behavior out.

That is the oldest, and most disproven saw in the Laissez Faire Free Market capitalism.  Self-interest has NEVER been a sufficient policing mechanism for regulating markets.  In addition, the Bush administration did everything in it's power to dilute and weaken Sarbanes-Oxley.  And it is no coincidence how many of the biggest offenders were major Bush / Cheney donors.

+++ Gee I didn't know he was in charge of travel agencies now.

He's not.  He's in charge of the national morale, and he is the only public official with access to the national bully pulpit.  FDR and JFK and Reagan were all skilled users of this aspect of their office to rally the national mood.  Bush is thoroughly ineffective at it.


+++ Hey you can blame unions for this one.  

No, actually, you can blame Bush for not having the guts to do anything about it.  Just because a Union is in favor of a misguided policy is no reason for the President to cowtow to it.


+++ Clinton also used Halliburton and Bechtel for most overseas logistics.  

Not with No-bid uncompetitive contracts, he didn't.  The issue is NOT so much that these firms were chosen, it is the TERMS under which these firms were chosen, allowing them to run roughshod with American Tax Dollars


+++ He won't touch the Iraqi Reserves because they are Iraq's.

That is EXACTLY why they should be used specifically to rebuild IRAQ.

I would think that Republicans would recognize the disaster that his SPENDING policies have caused.  Perhaps not, because bombs and other high tech weapons systems are an acceptable form of lavish expenditures to Republicans, while public education appears not to be.

I'm willing to debate you on this subject IF you actually read the link I added to my last post...instead of ignoring it because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived notion of why the people of Tennessee were willing to vote Republican just to keep Gore out of the Presidency

They had perfectly valid reasons why they could not accept Gore as President and it had NOTHING to do with how "Liberal" he was

I did MY homework too..I don't vote solely along party lines myself...I check these guys out THEN make my decision who I'm willing to support

In general I don't listen to the rabid partisans on EITHER side

At the time we had for all practical purpose TWO choices...Bush and Gore(the other candidates not withstanding)...of those two Bush was clearly the better option...not because Bush was so superior but because Gore was so inferior

Gore had already risen to his level of incompetence as a Vice-President...there was no way no how he could of made even a mediocre President

I know some believe GWB is a awful President but face it...it's too early yet to say one way or the other...not enough time has passed(Hell barely enough time has passed to judge whether his father was a good President or Clinton either)

The ironic thing about all the controversy surrounding any presidential administration is that ONLY after enough time has gone by can we really tell whether all the noise and fury was because the man dragged us kicking and screaming down the right path and acted like a LEADER should(there are plenty of examples of Presidents who were HATED while in office but NOW we consider them some of the finest men of our history) or will he be judged a screw up?

Anyway back to my point...Gore had ALL the advantages in that election...he was coming off of eight years as an incumbent Vice-President...he had plenty of money...he had practically all of Hollywood backing him...he didn't have to overcome the natural queasiness of a possible dynasty that Bush did(I know of people who didn't vote for GWB simply BECAUSE his daddy was already President so soon before)

For all the talk about what went on in Florida...jeez neither side was acting in the best interest of the country in my opinion but like I said before if only Gore had won his own home state none of that would of even mattered

Bush didn't steal the Presidency...Gore gave it away

Al Gore was NEVER my preferred candidate in the entire Presidential field.  Out of the 4 serious candidates, McCain, Bradley, Gore, and Bush, I personally preferred McCain, and would also have preferred Bradley to Gore.  But there was NOTHING in George Dumbya Bush's background to suggest that he was even remotely CLOSE to competent nor had he the character to be President.  And his record in office has borne this out.  It is TRUE that my Gore vote was a Lesser of 2 Evils vote.  But I see no reason to doubt that Gore was still the FAR lesser evil.  Because at least he had the intellect to not be dominated by his most fanatical appointees, and a SLIGHT modicum of personal courage.

Well, I'm glad that you do not believe GWB was responsible for the occurence of 9/11. Although, you did say, in the post to which I replied, and I quote:

"What's gone well under Bush's Watch?  

We've been attacked by Terrorists with 3000 deaths on OUR soil"

So you can see why one might infer that you believed otherwise.


And I do agree that much of Bush's fiscal policy is imbelic. Pandering to senior citizens and other statist elements by increasing Medicaid entitlements, instead of addressing the absolute necessity of entitlement reform, is totally irresponsible and, yes, imbecilic. I do, every now and then, wonder who will be elected President in the year 2020, when the Social Security trainwreck draws near. May God, or whatever diety, have mercy on him - or her.

However, under the lesser evil theory, Bush is the best that's presently on offer, as any of the other contenders would just be leading us even faster down the road to a total welfare state. Don't know about you, but I do not relish the idea of returning to a top marginal tax rate of 70% - perhaps even higher when we baby boomers start feeding at the federal trough. Talk about killing an economy!

Oh, and BTW, the Iraq War began in March, 2003, not "late 2002."

Believe it or not McCain and Bradley would of been my top two choices as well

I think my problem with Gore is he was Clinton Lite...I had no respect for President Clinton...not because of the so-called sex scandal but because I just didn't see him as a leader...he didn't make a move without having someone poll people to see what they thought they wanted...this is not the act of a leader

Most any intelligent person knows what you want and what you need are all too often not the same thing...Clinton is an intelligent man(no question about it)...he knew this as well as anyone but he didn't care about the country...his top priority was Bill Clinton and the country came second if even thought about at all

Anyway Gore was much like Clinton...no principles...no real identity..the difference was Gore didn't have the charisma to pull it off

Gore tried several different personnas during the campaign but none fit and he didn't have enough confidence in himself to simply BE himself and if he couldn't believe in himself how could we?

Being President is the single toughest job there is...NO one is really qualified to be President right out the gate except maybe someone running a second term...many of the foreign leaders you have to deal with have held their jobs all their lives...no matter what you do there will be factions who say you fucked up...you have to be more than a little bit of a bastard and have the charm to BS when necessary...being terribly smart isn't all that important

Look at Jimmy Carter...he was smart and by all accounts a very nice man and his Presidency was a disaster from the beginning

You don't have to agree with all the decisions Bush has made...I don't either...but the fact he was willing to make those decisions and stick by them says more about his character than the eight years of Gore as Vice-President

We had taken more and more serious hits from terrorists over the past eight years under Clinton and despite strong sounding WORDS...nothing was ever really done

I believe had Gore been President after 9/11 all we would of gotten was more words

Did Bush go too far with Iraq?  I don't know...I do know and it is a matter of record that almost everyone believed Saddam had WMDs(even Clinton believed this) and he was a credible threat to us and the rest of the world

I also think with Afghanistan and Iraq to ponder...those terrorists are rethinking their strategy of fucking with us(USA)

Countries that the terrorists could count on for support and a place to train are much less likely to give them ANY help now

How do you measure things like that?...people not killed by bombs that were not set off because the terrorists are too afraid of what we might do to their country in return

So is Bush on the right course?  Who knows...I do know that doing nothing wasn't working and sanctions never have worked

And not enough time has passed to say what he is doing will not work...it may be years yet before we know if this was the right way to go or it's just a blind alley...I do respect the man for trying this and giving it time to work(if it will) despite being getting his ass chewed on by people who never will be held responsible no matter what happens