I'm friendly with a provider I've been seeing for the past two months, and we've talked about doing a hike/bike/kayak/river raft/whatever day outing some day when our schedules coincide.  If it happens, and I shout her to dinner afterward, and we end up impromptu in her or my bedroom, what are my financial obligations?  I would assume I'd pay for the outing and the dinner, but what about the playtime if nothing has been discussed beforehand?  My inclination is to discreetly put an envelope in plain sight with the same amount as her hourly rate, with no discussion, leaving it to her to accept or decline. What do you think?

You know her well already. Hand her the envelope when the time comes.

I've been preoccupied with the same question.  What I have concluded is exactly as BBrain with the idea that it will be hers to refuse.  I think that is the best policy.

BS

I also see my provider off-the-clock.  She made it very clear to me she does not give "free sex" and so I always bring the envelop with me when she is "off-the-clock."  It actually makes thing less complicated this way.

there has not been any "free" sex.

Good deals maybe, but never free.

That's rule number one for a happy sex life.

My favorite bumper sticker of the '60's"

"Gas, grass or ass:  No one rides for free."

If this is truely off-the-clock, you are not a client, and she is not a provider.  You are two friends who got together one day and enjoyed each other's company and the day's activities...so, ask her up front what her expectations are...it will guarantee no surprises and hurt feelings.

I agree with all that's been said above.
However, I think handing over cash, not in a casually dropped envelope is both crude and inappropriate.  

Everybody knows it's a paid relationship whenever things turn sexual with a professional (except in the extremely unlikely event she declines the money and says, 'Let's be friends instead').  But, in my opinion, it can spoil the illusion to let any cash be visible or acknowledged.

It would be as though, near the beginning of a good movie in a cinema complex, just as the action starts to heat up, these words appeared on screen: "This is only a movie, and you've paid cash for the ticket.  Do not believe that what you are about to feel and see happening is real."

That would be both unnecessary and inappropriate.
Everyone already knows they are paying for an illusion, with a 'voluntary suspension of disbelief'.

Like the analogy?  Does this make sense?

BTW: Should we also have our lawyer there, announcing, "This is a paid relationship. Nothing hereinafter shall be construed as necessarily reflective of inner feelings.  The payee acknowledges that she has no emotional claim upon the payer, and hereby releases payer from any legal liabilities that a court may judge to be incurred by any action now to follow."

Why shouldn't lawyers be employed more, in this situation as in most others? Lawyers need some money for hobbying, too.





























-- Modified on 6/16/2007 2:07:01 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. You're definitely wrong on this. Any one-night stand is (or can be) absolutely free sex.  Certainly in high school, college, or young adulthood, this can happen fairly often (depending on the person). In fact, the only one-night stand that cannot be free is with a provider.  I can clearly remember times when I met some girl at a party/bar/concert, we got it on, and one or other was out the door by the next morning. In most of those cases, I don't remember feeling any pain (or that I had lost something).  I am also fairly certain that the girls I was with had similar feelings in at least some of those cases.  I am not claiming to be some kind of stud, and these encounters didn't happen that often for me, but they did happen.  I just wish they would happen in the middle-aged years!

On the other hand, any sexual "relationship", no matter how long or short in duration, is not free.  I guess I would define such a relationship as any kind of sexual/romantic encounter that involves an emotional investment by one or both of the participants.  In the hobbyist/provider interaction, this investment becomes monetary in nature.  Perhaps that is what you are referring to, but that hardly encompasses all sex.

I love it when I come across someone as ancient as myself and can quote 60's bumper stickers. I recall seeing that one quite often.

Great responses, most helpful.  Many thanks.  If this venture gets going, I'll follow BG's prescription.

I'd find it easier to deal with if boundaries are established before anything happens.  If not, I'd treat it as a friendly outing and forget about sex unless you are willing to pay.

Imagine if you had met in civvie life.  You might still have to pay for the activity and the dinner, but if you have to even consider directly paying for sex, you'd walk away.  If it's even a question, have the envelope handy and don't kid yourself that it's real.

You don't just pay providers just for the sex but also for the illusion that you're a really special guy and they would give it up for you in a heartbeat.  In civvie life, you can't pay for the sentiment, it's either real or not.

individual as to how the day has gone and how you and the PROVIDER have behaved during off the clock activities. I had a situation like this where we got so friendly that we knew all about eachother and we would just pick up and go for a night and ofcourse i will bear all the expenses and at the end or during our outing i will know or find out what her other expenses are while she is out here with me and i will clearly compensate for it , whether it is baysitting or anything like that, but paying for it doesnt make sense to me.

I'd forgotten that slogan.  Thanks for helping us recall, "No free gas, grass or ass".

I agree, almost always true.  However, there is an exception.  University students don't pay for sex with each other. They don't have any money, and they don't need to pay for it.  Neither do, generally,  young male and female working people just out of college.

However, when it comes time to have to raise a baby, a man has to provide support, for a least a while.  So the prospects for a guy's being a decent breadwinner are always in the emotional background. So, in that sense, yes, sex never is entirely 'free'.

Apologies for being so serious, in analyzing a comic slogan.  Yes, sometimes a humorous bumper sticker is just a bumper sticker, and a cigar is just a cigar.

-- Modified on 6/16/2007 1:11:40 AM

I was probably too reductionistic, as are others of my evolutionary-psychology persuasion.

I've just edited what I wrote a little bit, to try to incorporate your fine point. Thanks for making it.



-- Modified on 6/16/2007 1:57:52 AM

We did.....still no free sex.

I've got to admit that I'm really confused, and surprised, at the responses in this thread. To me "off the clock" means that you are getting together because you both really want to. It is not professional. It is a real, not imagined, date. As such, if you end up having sex, to pay for it would be an insult to both parties. What I'm hearing you say is that there is no place in a provider's life for consensual recreational  sex. That cannot be correct. These ladies are entitled to a life outside of their profession.

I did have this situation develop not too long ago and I felt that I knew the lady well enough to simply ask her if our time today was going to be totally social because I did not want to offend or insult her one way or the other. I got a big smile and she said it was all social. We had a great day including sex and no money ever changed hands. Yes, you can have a real date with her. She may be a provider second, but she's a woman first.

I agree with you.  I am not saying that providers are never truly "off the clock" but often their sex lives are not mainly with clients.  For that to happen requires a special relationship.

I'm sure many providers have been with clients off the clock only to have clients later on expect freebies instead of having to pay for anything.

That's why it's better to clear the air at the beginning.  If you are both on the same page, it's better all around.  If you have not discussed it beforehand, don't automatically expect it to be social.

I have one special client, someone who clicks with me in a perfect way.

During our first three appointments, our meetings were purely professional, but the chemistry was so good that every time we met we got more entangled and spending more time together.

Then, one night it happened...our evening was so fucking unbelievable, I could not let him go. I did ask if he wanted to spend the night and I knew I was getting into an "off the clock" situation.

Did I care for the money at that point? Nope, I just wanted his body glued to mine all night, which he gladly provided.

The next morning, after we fucked, he went to get breakfast for us and when he left I didn't know how I was going to handle the fact that I crossed the invisible line, the one separating a provider and her clients.

He brought my latte and favorite blueberry low fat cake and while I was eating he said "I don't know how much I should give you".

The professional in me was saying "1,500 of course" but at the same time the real woman in me was saying "there is no price tag for the time I had with him"...so I choose be the woman, not the pro and I didn't accept any money telling him I didn't want to spoil the whole experience.

So, I don't know which level of friendship you have, but let her decide about the money by the time you are set to leave.

If your relationship with her is superficial, discuss the amount before going out for your little adventure...mail to her, explain what you want to do and what might happen and ask what kind of rates she has for you.

If your relationship with her is deeper and you feel that you might offend her talking about money, just bring enough to cover a full day outing, plus the time she will be playing with you and do like my guy did, ask in a nice way by the end of your date. Let her decide if she wants to accept the money or not, she will tell you for sure.


BDG

I remember reading in 2000, two really cool hobbiest's stating how even if your married your paying for it in one way or another.  A date is (and should be) the same unless there's a game being played.

go on the date, outing, whatever you want to call it, and don't be pushy as far as getting into bed. If she wants to get intimate, off the clock, she'll let you know. It happened to me, twice, both PSEs. One lasted a month, one lasted two months.
Personally, I wouldn't leave an envelope out. If you're that concerned she may be expecting something, have it in your wallet. Then, no hard feelings.

When I was still dating, my date paid sometimes. When I was married, I never had to pay for sex.

and the way I chose to deal with it was to slip and envelope with the appropriate donation into her purse and say nothing.

Later, she would notice it and, I hope, appreciate that I cared to make things right without embarrassing her and spoiling the moment by putting her on the spot about it.

It's perhaps not perfect, but I hoped it was the right thing to do.

In any case, it did work out very well.

The message it conveys, I hope, is that I really loved and valued the time we had, but I don't want you to harbor illusions that the relationship I want is any more than an "in the moment" thing with you.  In other words, no long term committment.

The most valuable currency that any of us will ever exchange is karma.

The universe always balances itself.

-- Modified on 6/17/2007 5:51:59 AM

Thoughtful..things that make you go Mmmmmmmm..

Anyone who thinks that marriage can be reduced to paid sex is not cool and needs to grow the fuck up.

leave the karma in a plain white envelope, in clear view at the beginning of the session.
Avoid any uncomfortable situations and don't make the provider ask for the karma.

sorry, I just had to

I agree with this approach the most. You should both discuss any possible 'extra' activities should the day lead to such an excursion. However at that point, you go from friends enjoying time together to provider/client, which could ruin the day/mood over just having a friend to hang out with.

Bringing her donation along just in case, could possibly insult her, send her the wrong message or completely turn her off to seeing you too. So I think it would be best to discuss things beforehand. That way you're both on the same page and know what to expect, or not expect for that matter.

Have fun and yes be a gentleman and buy dinner, movie tickets or whatever.
Jimbo

Great story. And I think you clearly made the right decision, and afterall, you asked him to stay with you ... not the other way around. Which to me would have changed everything.

Jimbo

She's a pro... if it's time for business, she'll let you know it. Just have the cash on hand, but if she's agreed to spend some off-the-clock time with you, you're likely to actually offend her if you try to make it a business transaction.

I've had a couple of provider relationships that developed off-the-clock elements... in one case it involved a trip to Bali at *her* expense.

A cynic could argue that such activities are simply investment in an good client (the Bali girl I'd spend probably $15k or so on over time, an ATF) but the fact of the matter is providers, like any business people, sometimes actually *like* their clients, and take pleasure in spending time with them.

I mean, if you played golf with your CPA would you actually think about leaving him an envelope of money to cover his hourly fee? Of course not.

Now plenty of problems can ensue from crossing the "business" line with a provider, but that's a whole other topic.

O.

...there is no free pussy on this planet.  It ALL has to be paid for in some form or another.  So you had a couple of one-night stands.  BIG deal.  Met a girl at a party/bar/concert?  Did you buy her a drink?  Cha-ching!  No?  How long did you have to smooze her to get her to spread?  An hour?  More/less?  Did she pay you for your time?  No?  Cha-ching!  You gave it to her?  Your time and effort have value, right?  Ever spend a moment wondering if the "free" pussy you enjoyed the night before will show up unexepectedly the next day/week with something up her sleeve?  Cha-ching!  There is NO FREE PUSSY on this planet!  It just doesn't work that way.  Goes all the way back to Eve!  Now there is free "sex", as guys will definitely give a gal a real, honest-to-goodness 'freebie', but then again that's one of the big (make that BIG) differences between men & women.

...he was a jerkoff!  Marriage and free sex?  Now, that's a laugh!!

BTW, I'm happily married for 15 years and get it from the wifey on a somewhat regular basis.  Obviously, things are not perfect.  I wouldn't be here or spending time with "the ladies" if they were.  But, I'm certain that I'm not trading places with 100% of you guys, and more importantly that 99.99% of you guys WOULD trade places with me if you could!!!  Arrogant?  You bet.  After that statement, I can't say anything else.  But, it's honestly how I feel.  Really, I wonder about the mental capacity of some of you guys.  Really, marriage and free sex?  That's so absurd it's beyond laughable.

-- Modified on 6/19/2007 5:11:38 AM

The hobby is about sex.  Period.  No emotional commitment necessary.

Anyone who thinks marriage is ONLY sex, paid or otherwise is a fucking idiot - and not too bright or cool.  

If that's how you feel about marriage, you're the one who's beyond laughable.

...you couldn't be more off target in assuming how I feel about marriage.  Can you read?  Really, who typed in your response?  It's nice that you have a grown-up that lets you surf adult websites.  Perhaps you should give him your "crown"-- no wait, he's breaking the law.  I think I'll call the cops.  J/K, the "original king of cool" would never narc on a 12 year old who's looking at boobies on the net.  So, I'll let you go jack off now.