I only ask because after an incredible four days with an ATF (who lives 3000 miles away) I finally got the courage up to really open a real discussion with my wife of a few decades.  We've both been unhappy for years - an incompadible mix from the beginning - but both sticking it out for the child.  But that child is now 18, driving - has a job and is in college.  In other words - our common goal is finished.  

But niether of us would ever even mention the D word ithe past, let alone the S word out of fear.  I have no toruble talking about it now.  Now sure, it could be a midlife crisis (named by a woman because they call their midlife point a reevaluation.) but my wife had us all set to renew our vows in March.  I told her honestly this past week - not until I'm sure I'd marry her again.  Now I know she's just going through the motions but this scared the beejeezus out of her.   I don't want to hurt her but I think it would be worse if I stay another 20 years and eventually get caught in some other woman's arms.  Has anyone done this in a successful manner?  Does a trial seperation do anything?  Are the fantasy experiences with escorts distorting reality to the point of blindness?

inside that you thought were long lost.  Many long term marriages are kept together because of the fear of uncertainty and loneliness.  

My view is that there is no point in continuing something that doesn’t work.  Sometimes, a breakup will liberate both parties.  However I believe you owe it to yourself and your wife to try some sort of marriage counseling to full explore your true feelings about your marriage.  Good luck.

Just my 2 cents.



-- Modified on 11/23/2002 1:38:59 AM

It is kind of strange that we need to compartmentalize relationships with providers as if they are somehow false or illusory experiences. Why shouldn't they be as emotionally real and valid as any other human connection? If you get together with woman who takes your head places it hasn't been, you a destined to rethink the box you've been in.
 FWIW, of the many women I've been with in this particular arrangement, two have become real friends, long term connections, call it what you will...both are about half my age, eccentric as all get out, funny, resilient, complex personalities who have taught me more about myself and life and the way it doesn't necessarily have to be... after being around their sense of reality for a while, my own frame of thinking started to feel so old, stale, bloated, ridiculous. Took about a year to loosen up and get back into the flow of life again. Without them I'd be a dried up piece of mental beef jerky sitting in a drawer.

Since divorces and property are so totally court-controlled in this Country, especially SoCal, it might be a good idea quietly to seek out the best male-oriented divorce lawyer in town for guidance and planning right away.

I've heard your story from many of my DC pals.
Staying together for the children, whether the kids want it or not. Wifey will now be thinking about her own security and grabbing as many of your hard earned assets as possible.

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I've asked myself the exact same questions. On one had, the hobby has given me the confidence to "feel like a real man" again, and know that I am capable of having a "normal" romantic time with a woman (as opposed to the "abnormal" relationship with my wife). Yet, am I kidding myself because it is based on "fantasy" experiences with ladies who are faking it? They may be faking it but the experiences have allowed me to see what is possible.

Midlife crisis... is that a bad thing? How about calling it "midlife reality check". It's a "crisis" if you don't make changes based on the reality of your life.

OTOH, after 23 yrs there's no way I can stay in this marriage for the rest of my life. So yes, providers have helped to give me the courage to end my bad marriage - which is our plan after my son graduates college in 1.5 yrs.

Now, let's hear from hobbyists who have been in a similar situation and have gone through with divorce.

"Maybe the intimacies you have experienced with your ATF have reawaken something inside that you thought were long lost."

That is EXACTLY my situation. In my case, marriage counseling won't work. She wants to live the rest of her live like a nun. In her religous beliefs, there's no way a worldly husband can compete with God. She once brought up the subject of counseling. I asked her what she would do if the counseler said "we need to have more intimacy in our marriage" (and I wasn't just talking about sex). She was silent and never brought up the subject again.

...is she a Jehovah's Witness?  Sounds like one.

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I never met a provider during my first (bad) marriage who I would have left home for.  However, I have met a provider in my second (now sexless, but otherwise OK) marriage who I had seriously thought about leaving my wife for.

If you're just talking about generalities, sure, I ended my first marriage because I wasn't happy in it, and I was sure I'd be happier as a free agent chasing tail (paid for or not).  I was right.

You know what? I stayed for my kids too.  Almost too long.  Then I started to think about my dad, who was absolutely miserable living with my mother, but he did it until all the kids were grown.  It turned him into a real sourpuss who was hell to be around.  He was tolerable, sometimes, when he was sober, but that wasn't often.  After he finally left my mother (for another woman, a co-worker), he turned magically into a nice guy.  Draw your own conclusions.

No, Hindu. She's not Indian, she's of Irish-Catholic descent. Long story, don't ask!

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I would not leave my marriage FOR a provider, but the hobby has helped to inspire me to actually follow through to leave.

-- Modified on 11/23/2002 1:12:09 PM

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I think what you meant to say was you would NOT leave for a provider, right?  Same here.  You can't make it about the 'other woman', especially a provider, or you're really fooling yourself.  It's just that being snapped awake to an inner voice that's finally screaming -- "No dammit, I want something better!"  

My wife is not a bad person at all, she's not abusive, not fat, not sexless, but she has no passion for life in general.. Nothing seems to make her happy.  No fun in travel, hates to fly and at this stage of our lives my career has given me enough money for us to go anywhere, to explore anything and yet she'd rather stay home and watch Trading Spaces and the operation channel.  

I know a lot of our parents stayed together no matter what "You don't want to throw away 20 years!"  Throw away?  They're already gone!  They're in the damn past!  Doesn't mean they're invalidated.  It's the next 20 we should be worried about, right?  This will be tough.

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I edited my post. I did mean NOT for a provider.

I divorced when my kids were less than 10 years old.   I became a lot closer to them after the divorce for two reasons:

1) I could spend time with them without spending time with their mom, and I found that I enjoyed them so much more.
2) I suddenly became the primary parent, not subjected to my ex's interpretation of what was the right and wrong way to raise them.

It's now many years later with a schedule of equal time at mom's house / dad's house.  The kids are doing great.  

Staying together for the kids?  Maybe, but there are other options.  You can leave your spouse without leaving your kids.

-- Modified on 11/24/2002 4:51:16 AM

-- Modified on 11/24/2002 7:51:20 AM

-- Modified on 11/24/2002 7:52:20 AM

This whole conversation touches some very painful, threatening, issues, rife with internal emotional conflict. But it doesn't seem to be to be related primarily to the hobby. The issue would seem to be what to do about one's problematic marriage. And seems related to both a) what excuses one makes for staying in place (I have several favorites that I invoke, depending on mood/mindset of the moment -- either related to kids, hope for a miraculous reversal, fear of ever being able to connect with someone else, etc) and b) what could possibly motivate/support a person to actually "take the leap" out a marriage.  Can providers help provide the motivation/support? Perhaps, but the hobby may also allow a person (I know it helps me!) to tolerate a passionless/sexless marriage. (Sorry for the gooey confessional!).

My wife just left me and I miss the kids so much.  They are close by but I have the usual every other weekend visitation.

In another vein... I have not found the hobby to be all that inspiring regarding rediscovering my sexual self.  My best sex was when the marriage was good.  In fact, I have almost given up on finding a provider who can make a "believer" out of me.  To me it looks like you need to have about $2K to blow on shpping around for the real thing before you find it.

As a Married guy who is in a loveless marriage  how does a guy find a real sharp attorney.  I am in a 14 year old marriage, 3 kids.  I have lots of assets to be had if a divorce is not well planned. Business, Real Estate etc.  I live in a state that allows un-comingled property to remain with the orginal owner.  Is it best to get a Male or Female attorney.  Many folks say that ladies have a better time of representing a guy as they system looks at guys with their male attorneys as being assholes.
any advice is appreciated as I have decided that its time to move on.  And yes the hobby helped me get in touch with my Sexual feelings again.  Its great to have sex.

Step 1: Find an attorney who has been divoced themselves.
Step 2: Ask them who they wish had represented them in their divorce.

My advice exactly.   Now that I've been through it, I know exactly who I would want / wouldn't want as an attorney.  Talk to as many men and women who have been through it in your city.  Good luck.

Hinduism was one of the most lust-friendly "religions" in the world until India was colonized by the British. The puritanical shame that now characterizes modern Hinduism is an unfortunate artifact of British colonial rule and quite un-historical. I put religion in quotation marks not to marginalize Hinduism, which I greatly admire, but to emphasize what Alan Watts meant when he said, "Buddhism and Hinduism are not religions in the Western sense. They are, rather, systems of liberation." This modern, Christian inspired disavowal of carnality contrasts so sharply with the beautiful, lush sensuality of traditional Hindu art. Think of the temples at Karnak (?) with beautiful women, men and gods depicted in acts of love and passion without a hint of guilt. Sister Wendy Beckett, on her very popular PBS art series, chose as one of favorite sculptures in America the Yakshi from the Great Stupa at Sanchi that resides in the MFA in Boston. It has long been one of my favorites, and I was very pleased to have my taste in art seconded by so fine a critic and art scholar. The statue's head and breasts were defaced by Muslim invaders at some point in time, but she is still breathtaking in her sensuous beauty, a beauty that has outlasted the small minds who sought to destroy such a treasure. I don't know if it would help to reach your wife and establish some common ground, but why don't you buy some Indian art books and gently show her what the true lavish legacy of Hinduism is?

-- Modified on 11/25/2002 8:40:34 AM

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I am in a sexless marriage where sometimes I feel as if my wife doesnt really care about me.  Now I do love this woman. sh is good to me and good to my kids.  she cooks clean takes the kids around runs errands for me and our business. she is a good wife except for the sexless part. Now I am just 28 YO and she is 31.  Now I wouldnt leave her for a provider, I feel as if I would be fooling myself. The sex I know just wouldnt always be like it is when I pay for it.  I know that I probably wouldnt be able to find a provider that wanted to take care of me and for me to take care of her.  Sometimes I do think of divorcing my wife, but for what. I didnt marry my wife for just sex, I married her for who she is . I would never want to hurt her. Now I can use some help here. Should I feel guilty even in the least having sex with a provider? Let me know what you all think out there. -Joel

A Hindu of Irish Catholic background.  Hmmmmmm.  Can you say Hare Krishna?

Brother if you want to get somewhat of an equitable split, YOU BETTER get a female attorney. I would also lean toward one who has been divorced herself. In the eyes of the court, during a divorce, the bias is usually against the male. Just like the bias for parenting is usually in favor of the female. If the judge hearing your case is a female, you have another bias to overcome rather she is overt about it or not. People are human. That is why I use exeprts to help me pick a jury. A person can say they can be fair about looking at a situation BUT based on their life experiences and environment, those factors will shape their views on life. Get a lady lawyer and I think you will have a better chance than with a guy. If you do get a guy, and he is good looking, and he is single, and the judge is female, and you got kids, YOU ARE FUCKED!

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

IMHO you would be better off seeing a provider instead of finding your emotional relief by having an affair. You need to be clear about what you want. If it is just the physical intimacy without any string attached, then stick with a provider. But if you want that long term intimacy with someone you want to share your life with, then you need to consider leaving your wife BEFORE you seek out that new person. You may want to explore and WORK at why you don't experience that intimacy with your wife anymore. Like most couples, there was a time when that spark was there. Sometime people grow apart. Sometimes its as simple as taking each other for granted. Whatever the reason is, if you don't think it will work with your wife, but want a true companion instead of a provider, settle things with your wife BEFORE looking for that person. To many men are not man enough to end one relationship before jumping into another. There are times when we shouldn't look to have our cake and eat it too.

Leave it to me not to connect the dots! That explains everything. My heart goes out to you PUMPKINEATER.

Reo providers give men the courage to end their bad marriages?

I don't think they give you the courage you need.  I don't think courage is the right word.  Sometimes we just get complacent with the situation were in, were neither happy or sad, we just are.  Then one day we go looking for a little excitement.  It may be escorts, clubs, whatever.  But something inside us says, "Why am I settling for just being?"  We have just been going throught the motions for so long we just don't know how to make a change.  Seeing a provider may be a way of testing your waters, seeing if a small change feels good before we make a major change.

Just my .02

Da Game is right.  Some of the divorce court issues are related to luck of the draw.

I selected a female attorney who was divorced.  I was given a male judge who was divorced.  I wouldn't be surprised if he got f*cked in his divorce process.

He listened to my arguments, agreed with most of them, and disagreed with my ex-wife who felt she deserved to be supported in the style she was accustomed to after a short term marriage.  

If I would have had a female judge, divorced, who had a husband who left her for a younger hottie .... I'd be absolute toast!