Someone recently posted on the local Denver discussion board, asking what you would do if you found out your daughter was an escort. It reminded me that I have heard variations on this question before, the most common being "Would you want your daughter to be an escort?" A friend suggested that I should post this here on TER as well, as it might be a good topic for discussion.

Here is my reply to his post:

This is one of those questions that usually come from conservative, anti-hobby people, trying to make ASPs and hobbyists see the error of their ways, or to point out some sort of hypocrisy. I realize that was NOT the intent of the original poster, who seemed genuinely curious. But this is a question that, due to the usual confrontative/hostile way in which I usually hear it, I have given much thought.

I think that being an escort is one of the most difficult jobs a woman can do, for a variety of reasons. It's not as easy as placing an ad, taking the money, and having some fun in bed. The media create this stereotype that is, interestingly, paradoxical... on the one hand, they tell us that escorting is glamorous and exciting, and on the other, it is soul-destroying, and that once a woman goes down this road, she is forever tainted, damned. And in some small way, parts of the stereotypes are true.

To be an escort, you must fly in the face of convention, of society, or the cultural norms and customs to which you were born. You must find a way to feel good about yourself, even though society -- and everything you were taught to believe that lives inside you -- tells you that you are wrong for what you are doing. Women are raised in this culture with very strict notions about what is acceptable, sexually, and what is not. To rebel against those notions is one thing; to step completely beyond them, and make a living doing it, is quite another.

This job touches you, forever. You can never truly walk away from it. Even when you retire, you are faced with scary choices... suppose you meet a man who wants to marry you. Do you tell him about your past? Will he accept you anyhow? Or, if you keep it a secret, do you live in fear that somehow he'll find out? Or, if he does find out, will he still love you? What about if you get a straight job, and one day, a customer walks in who used to be one of your clients. What then?

To do this job, and do it well, you must be part sex goddess, part therapist, part businesswoman, part salesperson, part psychic. You must be incredibly courageous, and extremely paranoid. You live in fear all the time. Oh, you seem happy and confident, relaxed and playful, but the fear is a tiny black river, an undercurrent beneath everything you do. You are afraid of LE. You are afraid of men who will rob you, stalk you, hurt you, beat you, rape you, kill you. Most serial killers "practice" on prostitutes before they turn their attentions to "regular" women. When you are an outlaw, you live and work outside of the law... and so you don't have the protection of the law.

The hardest part of this job is living in a society that not only does not understand you, but condemns you, every single day. You are the ultimate pariah; you are lower on the social ladder than drug dealers. Yet, inside yourself, you know that you are a good, kind, loving person. The conflict between your inner self and the outer world can be very painful. Even some of your clients, who you would expect to be more forgiving or understanding, carry stereotypes about you, and judge you on some level.

In a way, you almost feel like someone in a movie, where you know the truth, you know this big secret, and no one else sees it, or believes you.

For some women, all of this is too much, and they use drugs and alcohol to help them cope with the reality of the Life. Invariably, their lives spiral out of control. Or, some women become hard and cold, aging years before their time, their eyes ancient, their souls bitter. The Life can be a wonderful thing, but it can also destroy you.

The women who do this work, and do it well, are STRONG. They are amazing. They are resourceful. They are talented in hundreds of ways. They have a powerful inner flame that they keep burning, when the world would put it out. I have tremendous respect and admiration for the ladies I've met over the years, who share the best parts of themselves with men, and maintain their personal inner lives with dignity.

Would I want my daughter to do this work?

I hope that she would not, in the same way that I hope she won't go fight in Iraq, or work the high steel, or crab fish on the open sea in Alaska, or be a smoke jumper, fighting out-of-control wildfires, or even a policeman.

I hope that she would not, not because I think there is shame in this work, but because it is so difficult, and so dangerous, that I would be afraid for her. Not just her physical being, but her mental and emotional being, too.

But if she made that choice, then I would hope that she be strong. Very strong.

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

Would I want my daughter to be an escort? NO! Would I have a choice? Not if she is an adult. So if she decided to become one and I found out the only thing I could do is support her and talk to her about her safety and health. I'm divorced and my daughter knows I visit escorts and she thinks it is ok.

and I've thought about it ever since Beverly blogged this.

Would I want my daughter ( if I had one) to be an escort?  
    Until attitudes change towards women who are escorts; the answer is no.  Not only does society marginalize, criminalize and degrade escorts, but SOME of the men in this hobby do as well.
    I love this job, but dislike how we have to fight with the hobbyists to have a simple form filled or questions that ensure all of our safety answered. Yes, most of the men whose company I enjoy are respectful and sweet, but it's the guys who leave bruises on me, hold my head down; nearly choking me, while I'm down south, and talk to me as if I'm less than that put me off.
    This minority does make me thankful and grateful that the majority of you guys are out there!

My question following Beverly's is: if you said no then why wouldn't you want your daughter to be an escort?

From a father's perspective, of course I wouldn't want my daughter to be an escort.  There are many reasons I feel this way - some emotional, some rational.

I'm sure the emotional reasons are fairly obvious:  I love my daughter more than life!  I want to always think of her as the little girl that held my hand while we walked down the beach.  The one that I could get to giggle at just about anything; the little girl I taught to swim; the one I spent my time trying to protect from the bad in the world.  I'd like to see her grow up with the tools at her disposal to be fiercely independent, on an equal footing with men and do something that truly helps her find fulfillment during her short time on the planet.  While one can never predict the future, I feel fortunate that I currently have the financial means to help put her in a place where her path could lead to that end.

Rationally speaking, Beverly and Holly have highlighted reasons I wouldn't want her in this business.  It's risky.  Escorts tend to be viewed with disdain by our society when they are "outed."  As wonderful and stable as some of the providers are, this isn't typically a glamorous business.  Just take a look at this board and other review/escort advertising sites.  The ratio of upscale, educated and sophisticated escorts is relatively small.  This business tends to have a really dark element to it, filled with individuals on both sides of the equation that are looking to take advantage of the other.  

I could go on, but I'm not trying to create a cure for insomnia.  I'll close with this:   If my daughter were to make that decision and I knew about it and after serious intervention couldn't dissuade her, I would do everything I could to connect her to an elite provider that could show her the way.

-- Modified on 9/1/2007 5:26:23 AM

WOW Bev, what an excellent, excellent post. I took the liberty of copying and saving it. These are words worth remembering - and celebrating too.

As to the question you pose, would I want my daughter to be an escort, well, I don't have any children but I do have two nieces who I am closer too than many parents are close to their own children. Would I want them to be an escort? No, I definitely would not. I freely admit to a double standard with that attitude, but it is there just the same!

and that is to find a career that gives them happiness and satisfaction.

Sure, there would be issues with someone being in a "forbidden" profession, but I'd be willing to deal with that if that is what it takes for my kids to be happy.

As for the danger, I can think of ten more dangerous careers without stopping to ponder that no one would blink at were their kids to go into them.  (Think: convenience store clerk)

The irony is that if my daughter did decide to become an escort, I might never know it unless I ran into her on here.

I would rather her get a college education, instead of going into this business.

I enjoy being in the business, but it is not for everyone. I would not want my daughter to have to take some of the chances, I have.

Plus, I would worry like crazy about her, as have seen the bad side of it also.

Kelly

Absolutely not.

After the decades - centuries! -- of struggle women have endured to have OPTIONS in their lives (beyond what is afforded to them simply by virtue of what exists between their legs) -- to have independence, voting and abortion rights, educational options and the like -- I would be beyond disappointed if any daughter of min chose to take all that was available to her, throw it away and earn her living on her back as a professional sex object. I would be distraught.

It's not pretty, I know, and I'm sorry if I offend. I hold the same view about the rump shakers in music videos, Princess Diana and any other chick whose sole claim to fame is providing "companionship" or "eye candy" to a man.

I'm not saying women of this ilk are stupid, slutty or morally bankrupt. I'm saying, until all of us are free, none of us are free.

Bev, I've seen daughters follow their mothers into the stripping and then providing. I am not making a judgment here, but I'd hope parents would break the cycle. Many of you have said how ugly this biz can be and how society sees it will never likely change.  What we owe are children is all of the opportunities and situations to become critical thinkers and to make decisions for themselves. Whatever reasons ladies are drawn to this is usually out of some sorry circumstance or poor choices. While others love sex and take every chance to earn a living from it. And there is still another group forced into the life. It runs the gamut. Can any of us really understand the whys? On an intellectual level perhaps, but we will never know the moment of truth that someone is faced with and who choose this life. So give your daughters the opportunities to make the life they want and if they chose this, its nobody's fault.

-- Modified on 9/1/2007 8:49:40 AM

about Iraq.  

I've spoken to ex-Vietnam vets, haven't met any Iraq vets, about our "volunteer" military.  Many have spoken to me about the "poverty draft."  What they have said is that even though a strictly defined draft is rare, many join the military less from patriotic commitment, and more because they have no other way to acquire the skills and money they need to improve their lives.  Much of the military are from poor and working class backgrounds.  So in an abstract sense, the military is "volunteer" but since many join due to economic compulsion, their degree of choice is questionable, hence the "poverty draft."

Is something similar at work in providing?  Another variation on your question is: if you could make as much, or more, money just as easily in any other profession of your choice, would you do that instead of providing?

This has been asked before, and the providers who responded overwhelmingly said they would still choose providing but it's a loaded question so I'm necessarily not asking for an answer here.  If a provider says no, then she might imply she doesn't like providing and lose business, if she says yes, one might still suspect that it's a business-oriented answer.

But let's be honest, as much as you enjoy it, it's about the money.  If you providers just wanted to get laid all the time, you wouldn't have any problems.  The business rationale then would be: "why not make money doing something I love"?  Fair enough but isn't it interesting that of all the non-corporate work that women make money at [like cooking, cleaning, etc.,], sex pays the most?  That porn is the one area where women routinely make more than men?  Our society pushes women towards commercializing their bodies while shaming them for it.

Would I want my daughter to be an escort?  I'd want her to have an active healthy sex life, but I honestly done know if I'd want her to have sex with guys she normally would reject, but she can't because she needs the money.  I suspect the amount of providers who "only see men they want" is statistically small.  I think most work for agencies and, unless the guy is abusive, visibly diseased or obviously not clean, they have little choice in the matter.

I think that if the cycle was going to get broken, it would have done so already.

I do agree with everything you say about opportunities, etc.,  but many women (and men) find this profession life affirming and fun; and why not?

It is.

where these now-true statements, which accurately describe a very sick culture and society, had become obsolete, false and incomprehensible...

"Escorts tend to be viewed with disdain by our society."

"society marginalize[s], criminalize[s] and degrade[s] escorts...."

"you are an outlaw, you live and work outside of the law... and so you don't have the protection of the law."

"living in a society that not only does not understand you, but condemns you, every single day. You are the ultimate pariah; you are lower on the social ladder than drug dealers."

Why can't you leave the subject matter as it is, instead of regurgitating "conventional wisdom" mythology about our warriors in order to draw some sort of parallel.  You simply don't know what you are talking about. BTW, I know lots of Iraq vets.  

Beverly,

   Thanks for posting such a poetic essay on the life and struggles of a provider.

   I too have admiration for a provider who manages to bring a little love into the lives of the men she cares for, but without becoming cruel and hard.

   A woman, like a man has to become strong, but you should not become cruel and uncaring.


Tarzan9

You have many great character traits that make you one of the best people I know (in or out of this profession). You are kind, funny, good natured and strong…just to name a few, all rolled up into one person. Oh, and did I mention erotic? In short, you are truly unique and a roll model for anyone wishing to be successful, regardless of what profession they have chosen for themselves.

The relationship between “providers” and “hobbyists” is indeed a strange symbiotic one.  It is one that has a true chicken/egg philosophical component.

While technically an adult, my son is still a teenager. My only career advice to him has been to discover his passion(s) and then work towards making a living at it. I personally find it very difficult to believe how that particular line of advice would have ever guided a provider into her choice. To me, it would seem that other motivations brought her to this profession and way of life.

Beverly, you did not mention how you started. For you to have experienced the success that you have, then what kept you here obviously went far beyond what brought you here. You are a rare breed of person that I only occasionally have the opportunity meet. I am hopeful and confident that we shall do so again one day soon. Maybe we will finally discover what “par for this hole” is.

I’ve got nothing but admiration for the women who can handle this profession well without the assistance of drugs and alcohol. You make a much greater contribution to society than I do, believe me.
I wouldn’t want my daughter doing it, if I had one, for the exact reasons you gave at the end of your post. Strangely enough, it wouldn’t bother me at all if I found out my sister was an escort. I’m not sure what that means.

Everyone had some interesting points to make.  I really have no opinion about this because I don't have any children and I don't plan to have any.  But if I did have a daughter, I THINK I wouldn't have any problem with her being an escort as long as she earns a nice living and tries to stay safe.  

But I don't think I would want my friends, relatives and neighbors to find out, as they would probably ostracize me for being a bad father (because of the societal stigma attached to this profession, as you point out).

OMG, Holly -- they bruise you!?  When I read posts like this I almost feel ashamed of myself for being a hobbyist, and indeed I feel shame for my entire gender.  When situations like this arise, have you tried talking to them, and asking them to please be a little gentler with you?  If so, does it work?  

We hobbyists also take a considerable amount of abuse from you ladies sometimes (bad treatment, no-shows, up-selling, bait and switch, etc.).  I guess it's pretty easy for both hobbyists and providers to forget about the hardships of the other side.

Why couldn't she get a college education AND work as a provider if she chooses to?  I don't see these two things as mutually exclusive.  Believe me, Kelly, I went to college and it didn't open up any magical "doors" for me.  I have to work just as hard as everyone else.  College can make you a better informed voter, consumer, investor, and citizen in general.  But, unless you attend one of the more prestigious Ivory Towers, it doesn't guarantee the American Dream, and I don't think it ever really did.

"...I'd want her to have an active healthy sex life, but I honestly done know if I'd want her to have sex with guys she normally would reject, but she can't because she needs the money...."

Dragonfly, I know you're just saying what everyone else is thinking, but it sounds pretty sick to actually read this on-screen.  Yeah, they would reject us if we didn't pay.  But it sounds so cruel and harsh when it's put that way.  Still, you make some very interesting points.

Would I want my daughter to be an escort? NO! Like you said, it is one of the most difficult jobs in the world. It is not just physically, emotionally but psychologicaly draining - not to mention dangerous. The money is good but expenses are also high. You meet all kinds of weirdos, who I would address psycho cliennts.

However if I found out she wanted to be an escort or became one, I also have to respect that it is her life and her choice. I would strongly advise her against it though. She is putting the rest of her life on the line, including altering her view of men and affecting her chances of finding happiness.

-- Modified on 9/2/2007 2:55:12 PM

I like what I DO . But condsitering I do it a little different I like It;It is  one of the worlds with in the world.I am in my prime. That is the only reason I'm thinking this is ok .I'm tried of being in relationships here I don't get mine.I have also been in the real world and feel the relationships are sometimes lacking in sex. we pick maybe the wrong men.AS you do women .Who's to say wrone or right .I tell myself I'm crazy to be the escort but my hormones get into play and I love my meat delivered to my front door. As for my daughter,I would wish for her to have everything.It is said to be out there.She is a little women whome I think alot of.Rotc which is the beginning of going for our goverment IN high school wanting to maybe be a cop. NOw I believe she's leading tords being a Rn.It now takes 2 years.I like this but my hormones make me agree with you. You know I'm just a normal parent and would think this to be fucked up for a young adult. However if she was 35 40 she could do as her hormoned dictated.....I'm an opinionated little chit.and normal and exotic but be care ful which way you extend

so if you want to continue your point about the military and PM me with data to "correct" my perceptions go ahead.

My larger point is about whether providers really "choose" the hobby.  Just because a gun is not literally at one's head doesn't meant that there are no other forms of compulsion.  People never want to talk about this, preferring to believe that unless physical coercing is present, then we have unlimited choice.

The main reason that many of us do the jobs we do is money.  While many of us might like our jobs, we would gladly leave them to do something more meaningful to us if it were financially feasible.  So why do we go to work?  Primarily rent, bills, and benefits, not necessarily personal fulfillment.  Why would providing be different?

Would I want my daughter having sex under these circumstances?  I don't think so.  If she decided to go this route I would do everything I could to help provide alternatives, or help her become a more exclusive provider so she would be able to control her situation as much as possible.

-- Modified on 9/1/2007 8:39:49 PM

Some hobbyists here have some issues.  What's good for their daughters (or hypothetical daughters) isn't good for other women?  Their worried about how difficult the profession would be for their daughters, but they have no problem with other women taking these risks?  

I think it's also screwed up that some of these guys act like they're so sensitive and caring because they're concerned about what providers go through, but they don't think about their wives when they cheat.

As for for Beverly's discussion, she sounds like a victim.  Why work in this profession if the risks are so great?  If you don't have any other choices, then that's another issue and contradicts the reasons given by other providers here for doing this work.  A few years ago, I heard a former federal prosecutor talk about her work dealing with child sex trafficking.  She said that a very high percentage (I think it was 70 or 80%) of providers were forced to begin as children.  She worked in the Clinton Administration and was not a right-winger.  Of course no one here would ever agree this, even though they don't actually compute statistics or deal with this in their professions.  

Beverly discussed at great length social norms and how people look down on providers.  I don't think most people care about providers.  We live in a fairly libertarian country.  I know a lot of people here complain about social conservatives, but they are the minoritiy in this country.  A majority of Republican voters are more concerned with tax cuts, not other people's personal lives.  There are moderates and liberals, though, who don't think providing should be legal- not necessarily because its immoral, but because of the reasons Beverly and I have mentioned.

We are healers, we are teachers, we offer gifts that men need... and these gifts aren't always sexual.

I have an education; I have amazing talents and skills; but I don't believe I've thrown those things away by choosing this work.

I believe that I use all of my skills and life experiences, combining that knowledge to do something that is immensely positive, and satisfying. I help people. I give joy, and happiness.

I am honored to do the work that I do, not ashamed. I believe there is good in all things. I think as long as feminists and others degrade sex workers, insisting their work has no value, cheapening their skills by declaring them "sex objects," they will in fact help keep these women down.

To lift people up, we must first try to understand them, and reach out to them... not with judgement, not with vision clouded by stereotype, but with love.

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

I guess the first thing I'd like to mention is that all of those "difficult" professions I mentioned, including fighting in Iraq, are, to me, honorable professions. I have nothing but respect for our soldiers fighting in Iraq... but I also think that most parents would be terrified to have their son or daughter go, even while being proud of them at the same time.

Such is true of escorting, to me. I believe my work to be tremendously honorable. There are many women throughout history who have done this work, and made wonderful contributions to society (often times behind the scenes).

The business rationale, for me, is not just "why not make money doing something I love?" though I think that's true for many, many women. But money is not everything. I know many people who make lots of money, sometimes even millions, who hate their work, and are miserable much of the time. I get paid to make people feel good; how many people can say that about their work?

I would even go so far as to say that the women in this business who have the most trouble are the ones who are in it primarily for the money. They will see any client, no matter how rude, drunk, or unpleasant, as long as he coughs up the fee. These women either turn to drugs or alcohol, or burn out, and quickly too.

I am one provider who "only sees men I want." I screen very carefully, not just for legal reasons, or safety, but for personalities that I think will mesh well with mine. I have worked for agencies in the past, and every agency owner I ever worked with was more than comfortable with my choices, if I didn't want to see someone.

When you talk about "having sex with guys she would normally reject," are you referring to physical characteristics, or mental/emotional?

People sometimes do wonder how providers can spend time with men who others might consider physically unattractive. I think that women choose partners differently than men do; that physical characteristics aren't as important as what goes on inside someone's head.

And I know that for me, I find that mental and emotional connection so much sexier than superficial physical characteristics.

Now maybe that isn't true of the average woman. And the average woman wouldn't be a good provider.

A good provider looks past the physical. I see the good in every person I meet. I am determined to spread a little love everywhere I go... and I don't mean that euphamistically, but truly.

That said, I love you, too.
xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

Thank you for your kind words. And we'll have to explore that course again!

As for what brought me to this business, that was a long time ago, and a long story... too long to post here!

But I can say that I am in this business today purely because I choose it. I have the skills and education to pursue other avenues... but I choose this work. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I feel I have a calling for it. There is something here that I am meant to do, and I'm doing it... and having a wonderful time in the process!

Thank you again... you are so sweet.
xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

well, I don't have kids, nor do I have any plans on having any.

But the answer to Bev's question (my opinion) is NO. Although, I had a good time in the 5 years that I had provided, there was downsides, as well.

I would want my daughter to have an education, and work in a non-escort profession. But, if she should have decided to follow my path, I would support her decision, but always try to gear her to an early retirement, but helping her save her money, and invest her funds, and just be there for her. That is basically all a parent can do, is to support your kid, no matter what the outcome is.

A gift is something given freely without reciprocal obligation or compensation. As we've all acknowledged, this is about the market value of your 'gifts', not an inherent willingness on your part to provide succor and respite to men.

Feminists don't degrade sex workers. Think of it more like "hate the sin, love the sinner". When feminists talk about 'degradation', they are discussing it in terms of an activity that affirms and sustains the male power dynamic which in turn dominates and oppresses non-prostitute women as well.

I agree.  I, too have an education, and while I employ my degree in a traditional mode I also use it in this field.

All too often the media and women's groups point out the evils of this field by saying women are exploited and objectified by men. They belittle those who work in the field and then say they want to help us by stamping out the sex industry.  Are they any better than the men who perpetuate the stereotypes of women in this field or demean women in the field?  No, in fact they are worse because they see their view as the "right" view.

I don't see what I do as purely sex.  It is a way to bring relaxation, comfort, reassurance, and pleasure to another human being.  I hold in my hands my destiny, my choices, and ulitmately my consequences; no one else.  

Let me decide if I am a sex object or not, but until you have lived a day in my shoes please don't tell me what I am or how I am throwing away my life.



-- Modified on 9/2/2007 8:46:09 AM

That's how I got into the biz!

-- Modified on 9/2/2007 11:27:28 AM

And for as many that find this life affirming, validating etc. there is an equal or greater number that sees it as abhorrent, debilitating, and an abomination... so it depends on who you talk to... My neighbor has his shorts in a knot, because his blond daughter prefers black men. So what would his response be to her being a provider? I'd be ready to call 911, because the guy is about to blow a gasket over the daughter's choice in men. And, the boyfriend is a young, bright surgeon. Cycles get broken in families all the time. I'd hope that a mother who was providing do her best to give her daughter other choices. And if she wants to follow mom, then it would be affirming to her. As for fun, decide you aren't going to pay and find out who'd be laughing.

Bravo to you Bev.  I, for one, feel the same dedication to my ladies, often pushing the limit on our self-imposed boundaries.  We dedicate ourselves to your joy,pleasure, and insight too.

My clients are wonderful and if this something she would want to get into, I totally support her.

I understand what you're saying about hypocrisy, and I think that can be true for some.

But I don't think that just because a married man chooses to see a provider, he's a hypocrite. Often, there are other things going on in that marriage that make seeing a provider the best choice, rather than having an emotional affair, or going the divorce route.

Just because we don't understand another's situation doesn't mean that what they are doing is wrong, or hypocritical. Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do, for making their choices.

The statistics you're posting -- that 70 to 80 percent of providers were forced to begin as children -- is sheer lunacy. I don't know a single woman in this business who started as a child... and I know quite a few women. Keep in mind that the statistics you see in the media are rarely, if ever, an accurate representation of the true face of this business... because they never ask *us*. Those stats may be true for another country, but not this one.

I am not a victim... and yes, while this work is very challenging on many levels, as I have mentioned above, I choose to do it. It is a *choice* I make. I could easily get a "normal" job if I wanted to... but I love what I do. Yes, it is difficult at times, but I believe that my work has validity, and is necessary and positive. I am willing to face the challenges, in order to help bring some positive, good things to the world.

Victims are helpless. I am not. Everyone has choices... and I make mine, with my eyes wide open.

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

I charge money for my time. Seriously. I know you think that little disclaimer is to protect me legally, but I really do charge for my time. What happens during that time is radically different depending on who I see. You assume that I am really charging people for sex, thus making me a sex object, and my sensual skills a commodity. I offer something way beyond that.

Many people see therapists. They talk about receiving "gifts" of knowledge and understanding from those therapists. They don't say that they paid for those gifts, when they paid the therapist for his time.

When you pay a lady for her time, for an hour, and come away with new knowledge, understanding, and experience that is life-changing, and life-affirming, that is an experience beyond price... a gift.

But forget the semantics, anyhow. It's clear that you and I have radically different viewpoints on this situation. Perhaps we should let it go at that.

As for feminists, the "hate the sin, love the sinner" argument is garbage. Stand in my shoes, and talk to a feminist sometime, and see how you feel. I'm telling you what, I don't feel the love. One feminist in England suggests that prostitutes should all be rounded up and shot. If that's love, I'll take hate.

Why are construction workers allowed to sell their bodies, their muscle, their strength, and we don't have a problem with that... it's okay to sell your arms and legs, but not your crotch? Please. It's all about the power we give to this one little part of the body. Why is the p*ssy holy, but not the head, or the feet? Sheesh, I could go on and on... traditional feminist rhetoric is insulting to women everywhere, and men too.

I don't affirm and sustain the male power dynamic. I subvert it. I am above it, beyond it. And Andrea Dworkin's ghost can (to quote K.T. Oslin) kiss my shapely big fat ass.

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

"...Why are construction workers allowed to sell their bodies, their muscle, their strength, and we don't have a problem with that... it's okay to sell your arms and legs, but not your crotch? Please. It's all about the power we give to this one little part of the body. Why is the p*ssy holy, but not the head, or the feet? Sheesh, I could go on and on... traditional feminist rhetoric is insulting to women everywhere, and men too...."

Bev, I was going to post something very similar.  People are ultimately either respected or derided because they utillize their natural-born talents.  A research scientist has intellect.  A football player has strength and speed.  A ballerina has grace and agility.  And a sex worker has beauty and charisma (hopefully).  They all work with what they have.  So what's the difference?

You know, Honeywagon, you should stop knocking the "male power dynamic."  If we assume that men run the world (which is laughable, because the world runs itself and doesn't need men, women or anyone else to run it, thank you), then surely you must have noticed that there are both positive and negative features of the patriarchy.  

Firstly, violence against women in the Western World is thought of as horrific, while violence against men is viewed as almost routine.  Why does it matter that the victim is female -- what should matter is that there was a violent crime committed, period.  

Also, it is expected that men should pay for women's dining and entertainment, in a romantic context.  Terrorists are always asked to release the female hostages first.  Divorce and child custody battles almost always favor the wife.  Women live longer than men.  Women are attending and graduating colleges at higher rates than men.  Women in major cities like NYC now earn more than men do.  And women have choices -- a married woman can stay home to care for the children, but if a man stays home to take care of his children, he is thought of as lazy and unproductive.  The most dangerous and life-threatening jobs are done primarily by men, often for low pay.  Women aren't allowed in combat in the military -- consider how many female lives this ludicrous rule probably saved in Iraq alone!  What more do you want?!?

Is this skewed and one-sided?  Of course it is!  But so is traditional feminism.  Why don't you push for REAL equality, and take the good with the bad, the way men do?

I think you're right that you never know exactly what goes on in a marriage, so my comments were a bit hasty regarding that.

Regarding the statistics I mentioned- I didn't get these from the media.  These were mentioned by a former Assistant U.S. Attorney who prosecuted child sex traffickers.  As I said, she worked in the Clinton Administration, so she is not some right winger who condemns providers.  Maybe many of the providers among these statistics work on the streets and don't have the choices that escorts have.  However, I don't think there was any reason for her to fabricate these.  The Justice Department targets those who exploit people, not providers.  She no longer does this work, but she still speaks about the issue.

I wouldn't worry about what others say about your profession.  I watch the news constantly on CNN and MSNBC and I don't hear any discussion of providers.  It sounds like you believe most people condemn your work, but I don't think most people are concerned.  They just care about what goes on in their own little worlds.  If you love what you do, then that should be enough and it shouldn't matter what others think.

So what exactly do you love about your job?

Ok.  I'm going to control myself and not ask about the double possibilities LOL

-- Modified on 9/3/2007 12:28:15 AM

"Now maybe that isn't true of the average woman. And the average woman wouldn't be a good provider.  A good provider looks past the physical."  

I would hope that I had been able to instill in my [hypothetical] daughter that looks are not necessarily the most important thing when being with a guy but let's face it, we all have physical preferences.  And certainly I choose providers largely based on looks - although I have refused to go to providers who are good looking but have shitty attitudes according to reviewers.

I'm not denying that a provider can genuinely like her clients and have a great time, but I have asked this in the past:  If providers had met many of their clients in real life, would they have slept with them anyway?  Most likely not, no matter how charming or intelligent the guy might be.  Off-hours, I suspect that providers are like any other woman - if they didn't find the guy physically appealing, they are not going to "get past" their looks.  Beverly, you might be exceptional in this regard, but it only proves the rule.

So as far as getting past the physical, you are right, a good provider has to do that because it would be bad for business otherwise.  Again, do I want my daughter to have sex with someone for reasons other than personal desire?

Having our child do this is never what we want but its sometimes what we get. I did. My daughter was one of those who even had a pimp when she first started. As time went on and she retired she was doing the same way I do it. She was an adult so there was not much I could say about it. She did finally retire after having her son. I'm glad she is no longer in this trade.

This really is the most difficult business to be in. It jades you towards anything that could happen in the future. I can't speak for everyone but I know I will never trust a man no matter what. I will never be able to fully believe anything he says. The only relationship I can ever truly look forward to is an open one where we both have the choice to play with others because how am I ever suppose to believe a man will stay faithful to me. In case your wondering I have been in this business for over 16 years now. Seen a lot, been thru and experienced a lot.

I'm jaded. I can't trust. Its a heavy price to pay. Some girls are addicted to drugs so they can do what they do. Others drink. I don't have an addiction problem and thankfully neither does my daughter..... anymore.

Stopping a girl from doing this is also useless. Once they have made up their minds to get into it thats it. The only thing anyone can really do is stand by. Hope for the best. And be there to help pick up the pieces when its done and over with.

But everyone makes that sound like a bad thing.

Would your therapist be your friend and help you with all your problems if you hadn't paid him?

Would your contractor remodel your house for free because he just likes it?

Would your mechanic fix your car for free?

I guess I just don't understand why there's this whole "she wouldn't do it unless you paid her" negative mentality.

In the above examples, the therapist might like you very much; the contractor might love your house, and the mechanic might think your car was a terrific, interesting model to work on... but none of them would do the work without getting paid. And, neither would you, in your business.

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

I think what I *dislike* most about my work is trying to help people to understand, when they just can't get it.

The former Assistant U.S. Attorney is incorrect with her figures. That's just the truth. You don't see a reason for her to fabricate those numbers? Or to inflate them? Or adjust them in any way? Or take someone else's word for it? I highly doubt she came up with those numbers on her own. She was merely repeating statistics from a file someone else gave her. When one is on a mission, it's important to give that mission validity. What better way to do that, than to create statistics that conveniently can never be checked or proven?

I'm certainly opposed to child sex trafficking, but I also know that the issue is not a large problem in the United States. I also know that for many people, putting it all down to "they couldn't help it, they were forced into it as a child" makes it a lot easier to deal with. It's so much easier to understand, if everyone is a victim. Facing the fact that women choose this work is completely baffling to many, and disturbing as well.

If you would rather take the word of a Assistant U.S. Attorney, who *of course* is much more respectable and believeable than an escort, then by all means, be my guest. But if you are interested in the truth, try doing an informal poll of every single provider you see. Ask them... did you start working in the business as a child? Or an adult?

You say "I wouldn't worry about what others say about your profession.... If you love what you do, then that should be enough and it shouldn't matter what others think."

You're right. It shouldn't matter what others think... but it does. It does matter. And to expect escorts to just "shrug it off" and decide that everything's okay is impossible. Just because you don't see discussion of the situation on the news doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You don't see discussion of Dick Cheney's ties to an Azerbaijan dictator and vast oil fields in Russia, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.

If you don't think most people are concerned about what I do, ask your neighbors if they'd like to have a prostitute living next door to them. Ask your neighbors if they think a prostitute is a good mother. Ask your neighbors if they think prostitution is a noble profession. Do they assume that most prostitutes have drug problems, or have pimps? I'll bet you five bucks they do (I'm serious, I'll send it to you PayPal).

To imagine that it is so easy to shrug off the dominant paradigm vis a vis prostitution is madness. If you think it's so easy to let go of the opinions and judgements of others, imagine for a moment walking naked to the grocery store. And try really hard not let the opinions of others bother you. Show up for your next job interview wearing shorts, flip-flops, and a tank top that says "Bite Me." Do you think you'll get the job?

Better yet, try telling everyone you know that you hobby. Will their reaction bother you?

Fact is, when you fly in the face of society's norms, rules, and expectations, you get a negative response. And it's really hard not to take that personally.

You may not see the way society condemns us, because you are not attuned to it. Every time I see an escort portrayed in a movie or on television, or mentioned in a news story... I see it. When I hear someone insult another with the word "whore," I feel it. I am reminded that who I am, and what I do, is an insult, to most.

Finally, to wrap this incredibly long thing up on a happy note, you asked what I love about my job.

I love meeting new people, learning about them, talking with them, discovering what makes them truly unique and special. I love sex, of course! I love continually learning new things about myself, my sexuality, and new ways to help others learn these things, too.

I love that the more I do what I do, the deeper my understanding and appreciation of others becomes. I love that sexuality can be spiritual, that I can see the love in all things through my connection with others.

I love that I get to make my living helping people feel good, and happy. Not many people can say that about their work.

I love reaching out and touching people, in ways that make a difference in their lives, even if only for an hour.

I love working with disabled clients, helping them feel wonderful, and exploring different ways of appreciating sexuality.

I love being my own boss, able to spend time with my family when I choose, or take a sick day without worrying about how many sick days I have left. I love not having to report to work at some ungodly hour, and I love not having a boss who doesn't appreciate me. I love the marketing, the web design, and, of course, I love making a good living while being able to do so many things I love.

I love men. I think that it's harder to be a man than most women realize, and I have this appreciation for men, who they are, the way they think, the way they feel, their needs and desires.

I believe that what I do has tremendous power, for those that want to take it. I honestly believe that what I do makes the world a better place.

And it can be frustrating, sometimes, to have these beliefs, this understanding, in a world where people think terrible things about me. Imagine that you are doing something really good and loving, but everyone, all around you, thinks you're doing something evil... including people you love and respect. Frustrating. But yes, most of the time, I am happy, and I carry on my life as if I were unaware of the negative opinions of others. To dwell on that would make my life a misery, and I'm a "glass half-full" kind of person.

But I can't entirely forget, either.

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

-- Modified on 9/3/2007 3:01:54 PM

"Is this skewed and one-sided?  Of course it is!  But so is traditional feminism.  Why don't you push for REAL equality, and take the good with the bad, the way men do?"


Great post.


So many women today love feminism, so that they can get power, yet where are they at when it comes to the OTHER side of being "equals"??

I'm NOT for "equality" at all, because we are NOT equals in any way.  Women are women, and men are men, but that's a whole nother topic....


The point is that many (if not most) women do not want to get sucked into the feminist agenda, in a war against men, because most women are not consumed by insecurity and ignorant hatred of men.


Be careful what you wish for, or else "Leykis 101" will be the future.

A truly strong woman, is secure enough to be a woman.


She doesn't feel some CRAZY need, to compete and have a war against men.



Men and women will never be equals, because we are completely different....

so whatever CRAZY special-interest political agendas one might pursue, at the end of the day, you are still going to have to be a woman, and a man is going to have to be a man.

Anyone trying to be "equal" with the opposite gender, is simply lost.

I thought I was the one being exploited....


as a matter of fact, I KNOW that I am.



Women entice and pray on our struggle and need for sex, so that they can get paid, yet feminists accuse THEM of being exploited?!?!?!


It's a MAD, mad world....



Oh and I know that not ALL ladies are unscrupulous.  

Some are extremely fair-minded!

I'm just stating a fact, it's not a negative judgment.  Read my other post in this thread, I have clearly stated that we all go to our civvie jobs primarily for money [that includes me] even if we derive some satisfaction out of our job.

Perhaps it feels like I'm making too much of it because you make too little of it.  It's not a bad thing, but you avoid talking about it like YOU think it's a bad thing.

Here's something else I'll state bluntly: we pay you for sex not just your "time."  While there are other things you might provide: comfort, solace, good conversation, relaxation, but we all know what the main event is.  You can argue that someone is paying for the whole package, and you might get a smattering of guys who decline the physical act, but that's not your bread and butter.

Why am I emphasizing this?  Because I don't think it's completely true that commerce does not play a DEFINING role in why your provide.  If you just want sex, you can get it, you're a beautiful woman.  As such it also plays an important role in the guys you see.  You might have met a bunch of great guys through the hobby, but I doubt you would have slept with many of them if you had met them in civvie life for the same reason they hobby.  They are not considered that attractive and it is difficult for them to get laid regardless of their other great qualities.  So yes, even you sleep with guys you would normally never give a second glance.  That they turn out to be great guys and possibly great in bed is a benefit.

Unlike those other things you mentioned, sex is an intimate act between two people that can usually be acquired for free.  Equating providing with other professions not that simple.  Here's a test: go to the local toy store and what will you find?  Play sets so kids can pretend to be construction workers, cops or soldiers.  You will not find Betty Crocker's Condom Playset.  Why are people angry about child porn or prostitution?  Because sex is not simply a physical task with no other ramifications.  It is an emotionally-charged act that requires development and maturity.  It implies a degree of intimacy that does not go with ripping up concrete, putting up drywall or dancing on a stage.  It is no less legitimate, but it does have its own set of complications and trying to deny this by making inappropriate analogies doesn't help anything.

I am not trying to denigrate providers but if you're so proud of your work, tell it like it is.  The best providers do provide a valuable service beyond the physical, but it is no substitute for genuine desire or emotional attachment.  If you can handle that as a provider, more power to you, but many women can't, which is what the original question was about, right?

-- Modified on 9/3/2007 9:11:19 PM

Fair-minded? Nah. Market rates yes. We are such fools.

Does not need to distort ideas he does not agree with.  One could argue that it is men who have the special-interest agenda.

This debate is getting a bit weird, but I can't resist responding. Maybe one of us will eventually give up. Probably me.

Here's what I think: I think men believe they're paying for sex, but they're not -- not entirely. For a couple of reasons. Firstly, when I say you're paying for time, you are... if you booked an hour session with a lady, you would expect to get your full hour. If you wanted more time, you'd have to pay for it. Part of what I mean, when I say I charge for my time, is that my time is very valuable to me. I see no reason to leave my family (who never see enough of me) to go meet a client for free and have drinks with him, or do a two hour session for a one hour rate.

Secondly (and here's the juicy part), if all clients were interested in were a good orgasm, they could stay home with Internet porn and a bottle of Jergens.

What you're *really* paying for is the company of a woman whom you find attractive, and yes, having sex with her is part of that, but it's about being with a woman. Women, to most men, are more than just holes to be screwed. There is a person attached, and being with that person, and lying around naked with them, is a nice thing.

One highly-regarded sociologist said (and I'm paraphrasing here) is that the reason men seek out the company of providers is that they offer things men can't get anywhere else. He suggested that men are raised with rejection and competition, where women are concerned. Women are raised to reject male sexual advances, and to give acceptance of such advances only in certain circumstances. Even wives will reject their husbands, if the husband proposes any sexual activity that the woman has been taught to believe is "dirty" or "bad."

Providers, then, offer a place where men's desires are not only free from rejection, but welcomed and appreciated. Further, there is no competition with other males.

Now that's the sexual component. Finally, he pointed out that men, in our society, are often unable to talk about a variety of things, which can include (but aren't limited to) sexual fantasies or fetishes, emotional issues, fears, etc.

Providers offer a safe haven for men, where they can talk about anything at all, without fear of judgement or reprisal.

Studies have shown that men use sex as a substitute for unconscious desires for nurturing and acceptance... desires which cannot be stated aloud, or even consciously acknowledged, if a man is to truly be a "man."

Truly, escorts provide (in the time you've chosen) an escape from the world. It's a perfect little universe, with a pretty naked lady, sexual contact, someone you can say anything to, and no expectations, other than to pay, be clean, and treat the lady nicely.

If it was just about sex, then 3Gs girls would be the norm, and no one would ever get a bad review.

And you're right... sex is an intimate act in our culture... and maybe I shouldn't equate it with other professions. But I guess that's my issue with the whole thing... and why I think that people have a problem with the profession. They don't recognize that we create "specialness" in our minds.

I know that our culture believes sex to be this holy grail kind of thing. The penis is a sign of power; the vagina is something precious to be given only to the truly deserving. But *why* is it this way? When I eat, I am putting something into my body. When I eat with someone else, I am putting something into my body in the presence of another. Eating sustains life. Sounds good! Shouldn't that be holy too?

I guess my point is that what is intimate, what is holy, what is sacred, what is special, is all in our heads. We decide what is precious, and what is not. We can choose to have sex and have it not mean anything; we can choose to have sex and have it be a profound spiritual experience. And in my opinion, sex even with a total stranger can be incredibly intimate, and spiritual. Because I create that. I choose it.

Maybe you can't understand that. I know that my feelings on the matter are a bit unusual, seeing as how they are a complete departure from the culture in which I was raised. But I also know that I'm not the only provider who feels this way; ask any Tantra provider or dakini.

And as for telling it like it is, I always, always do. At least, I tell it like it is for *me.* I suppose that's all anyone can do, right?

xxxooo
Beverly ;-*

Uh, what do you think I distorted?

Wow Bev, exceptionally well said.

While I suppose that the Attorney General's numbers may not be "wrong", that doesn't make them correct either.  Let's suppose that it's REALLY the percentage of a sub-set, blah blah blah, that can put facts into a made up number.  Numbers can lie, so that people don't have to.

I also agree that the majority of our friends and neighbors look down on prostitutes.  IMHO, they do it out of ignorance, but they do it nonetheless.  There is a provider with reviews here on TER that lives very close to my home, and we joke all the time about me telling the grammar school principal about the mom that's an escort, because knowing him, it's easy to envision his head spinning off.  We joke, but she's a neighbor and a mom, and none of that would matter "if they knew"...

I just want to know, if I were to do the whole naked grocery store thing...could I do it late at night?  I'd hate to scare my neighbor's kids.