This goes to the ladies and the gents:
Ladies, how many of your customers are married? Any advise to offer those who are contemplating their first extramariatel affair? How do you help them get over the anxiety? Can any of you actually say based on your experience that you have actually helped a marriage by expanding your clients lovemaking abilities that he takes back to his wife?

Guys who are married,does guilt cause anxiety? How do you manage it?

Reason I am asking is as I find the time of my first appointment approaching I am feeling guilty and depressed when I should be excited?  Is this normal? Maybe this my conscience telling me I am not ready for this? What do you think?

My advice to everyone (client or provider) is to never do anything that you think is morally wrong.  From my perspective, characterizing an encounter with a provider as an "extramarital affair" (which I have never had) isn't correct.  It's recreational sex without any romantic involvement.  The only kind of infidelity that really matters is emotional infidelity.

Everything you are feeling is normal. I think the effect that this hobby has on you marriage depends on the state of your marriage to begin with. I think that most of us who enter this hobby have a big problem with our marriages to begin with. My wife was not interested in any improvement in my lovemaking skills because she thinks sex is evil. I don't feel guilty since this marriage was heading to its conclusion for quite a few years. Can't be fixed. Your situation may be different.

After seeing a professional and caring provider, you may learn more things about what you thought was "love" and "intimacy", and what you thought was only possible with someone you "loved". It's all fantasy and illusion, regardless of it's with your wife, girlfriend, or a provider. That's the dirty little secret that no one wants to admit.

I disagree with the other poster who said "only emotional infidelity matters." So let me start by saying that. Lying to someone you supposedly love, for whatever reason, DOES matter to the relationship... probably not something I am SUPPOSED to say here, but it is the truth.

Now in your case, I am wondering... have you spoken to your wife? Have you tried every possible means of working out the problems in your relationship? Because if you care about her, if you love her, and if you are having problems of which she is unaware, it is your responsibility to let her know and try to work it out. Relationships are WORK, and they take BOTH partners working to make them function well. I think lots of people expect relationships to be good and just sorta... "happen." But it doesn't work that way. Your guilt sends me to this line of thought and wondering if you've explored all of the avenues open to you.

IF, on the other hand, you already HAVE tried everything you can think of, and your wife is the one who chooses to ignore that you have a problem... I don't see where you deserve to feel guilty or why you should. If you've already done these things and are staying in a marriage, for example, for the sake of children involved... then guilt shouldn't factor into it. But you absolutely do not at this point sound comfortable with your choice... and I for one would not want you to walk into my door until you not only don't feel bad about what you are doing, but until you are able to feel good about giving a gift to YOURSELF.

I did have a gentlemen one time arrive who felt so nervous and guilty about what he was doing that he wound up leaving... without doing a thing. That was a terrible experience for me. I am not here to make anyone feel guilty or to make someone feel anything bad. I offer an experience that I want you to drown yourself in and FEEL GOOD about... and if you cannot do that, you're not ready.

Hugs*
Nicole

Thank you. I do love my wife. There are certain things my wife will not do sexually that I want to explore. My hope is that maybe a session with a premier provider will help me determine once and for all how important these things are and if they are, I need to somehow work them through with her or not..

Other fear is sexually transmitted diseases. What is the incubation period? I am going away with my wife mid month in October. We have unprotected sex. Since the reason I am seeing a provider is for the BBBJTC experience my wife will not provide to me and the Daty experience she won't let me do to her.. what do you recommend I do after the encounter to make sure I am safe..
Thanks for your support

Really?

Do you have a SigO?

Would she agree?

Have you told her about your hobbying?

I would say that the only kind of "infidelity" that really matters is that which your SigO would be hurt by. And my experience with women says that one can't make assumptions either way. Some women (probably not the majority) really don't truly object to their SigOs having what might be called "emotional affairs", so long as he keeps his commitments to his family and marriage regarding support (of all kinds). However, for other reasons (perhaps moral, perhaps religious) the idea of physical infidelity is unacceptable. On the other hand, we probably have all rationalized that emotionless sex is of no consequence (because men for the most part really ARE capable of it). And I've met some women who feel the same way...they support the "polygamous" aspect of their relationships.

I've have NEVER met a woman that stood for deception however. So a guy should never think that because an affair is not "emotional" that is doesn't matter. It might not matter to YOU...but it DOES matter.

I’m not judging…hell, I’m on this board too, right (though I’m not married)? But a guy telling himself “it doesn’t matter” is only a self-serving smoke screen. He should be man enough to admit that what he is doing IS potentially hurtful, and almost without question deceitful. Every guy's reasons are his own, but he shouldn't kid himself by calling it anything other than what it is. It is an affair, it DOES matter, and there is potentially damage that could be done. If he has decided to take all those risk, so be it, but he is a FOOL to not recognize the risks by pretending they aren't there. This is poor decision making at its worse.

Recognizing risk is CRITICAL in both business and personal matters...deluding yourself serves no purpose.


-- Modified on 9/27/2002 1:49:09 PM

-- Modified on 9/27/2002 5:51:36 PM

"Can any of you actually say based on your experience that you have actually helped a marriage by expanding your clients lovemaking abilities that he takes back to his wife?"

Stop kidding yourself with rationalizations. What EVER your reasons are for wanting to see a provider, potential benefit for your wife / marriage is just a delusion.

You think a provider is going to teach you all sorts of wonderful sex tricks? She might...there is a small possibility. But guess what? When you take that trick home, guess who is going to wonder where it came from? You're wife is MARRIED TO YOU...she KNOWS YOU. She KNOWS you didn't pick up some book in a library, she knows you would never consider doing such a thing. She also is JUST as aware of the state of your marriage as you are, so it won't be much of a leap for her to conclude that you've been fooling around.

Plenty of survey and studies reveal that women are A LOT more smart and aware than their SigOs give them credit for. The majority of women say that they knew  / or know that their SigOs are being unfaithful. Some ignore it, some are deeply hurt, a few respond with infidelity of their own. I don't think you'll find many who will say it IMPROVED their relationship with their SigO in anyway, sexually or otherwise.

What you are feeling is your humanity telling you what you know; that what you are seeking to endeavor to do is wrong. Now, you might decide to go ahead anyway, because you have reasons that justify it in your mind. That is fair.

But if you lie to yourself, then you are not making that decision to go forward with a clear head, which means you are not being true to yourself. Be clear and honest...with what you are doing, with what you are risking. If you decide to go forward, then fine. But just PRETENDING that you haven't made that decision by thinking somehow your marriage will BENEFIT from this is just cheating yourself.

The difference is this: When you make a poor decision that was carefully thought out and rationally made with all reasonable facts and perspectives considered, you feel disappointment, but not regret. If this thing blows up in your face after you have REALLY given it thought, then you'll say, "ok, I took that risk, but I decided it was worth it. Cest la vie".

But, if you lie to yourself about what you are doing and what you are risking, if / when a course of action goes bad, you will hate yourself. You will ask "why..why..why?" You will regret for your remaining days the damage you've done to yourself, to your marriage, to your family.

Look...keep it real. You are embarking on infidelity. And you are doing this for sex. If you are doing it for any other reason (say to improve your self esteem), you need to re examine yourself and perhaps consider therapy instead.

Now, if you have decided that sex is worth you risking your marriage for, then fine. I am not saying this is necessarily bad. Some of the stories these guys tell...ten years without sex? That marriage IS over. I suspect that guy has long ago decided that if he was SURE his wife would learn of his next "date", he would go anyway, and let the cards fall where they may.

On the other hand, if you and your marriage have not reached that point, I'd advise (and I'm not married, though I have been) that you keep your pants on. You're "not ready".


-- Modified on 9/27/2002 1:43:09 PM

-- Modified on 9/27/2002 5:48:28 PM

I started with the hobby a year ago and am just an occasional participant.  I never felt guilt.  I did have a lot of anxiety the first time, despite having read up on things on this board and the other board "who shall not be named" (as the wizards say).  That anxiety flew away when my first lovely sat next to me on the couch, put one arm around me and one hand on my inner thigh....

It does matter in my mind that I tried for ten years to improve things without success in the marriage. Sexual frequency fell to once a month and now to 2-3 times per year.

-- Modified on 9/27/2002 1:14:56 PM

MyLifeAsMe (and this is partly directed at SexyCurvesDC, although her offense was not not nearly as egregious as yours):

I would suggest that you think twice before making statements based on mistaken assumptions.  You are a person with passionate views, and clearly have a good heart and mean well, and in my book that goes a long way.  But in this instance, you are way out of line.

In the words of Mr. Nike " JUST DO IT ". No guilt unless you catch something & try explaining that to the wife. If you're extremely anxious then start out slow maybe a massage/hj.

-- Modified on 9/27/2002 6:45:49 PM

It takes a certain kind of man to be able to enjoy a casual sexual relationship with someone he can never really be with.  Some may call him a cad - others names that I won't mention here.  But as someone who loves and enjoys his wife AND has no guilt when it comes to experiencing sex outside of the marriage with a provider, I have had to come to the realization that I am one of those men.  

I faced that truth this year - even admitted it to a friend - that even though I am a decent person at heart - I am one of those guys wives adhor, would throw darts at if they could.  But do I stop?  No - because the risk is what makes it all worth while.  I'm a excitement junkie.  And I love women.  If someone here says I need theropy - go $%^& yourself.  I've lived with myself long enough to know my strong points and my weaknesses.  I choose to live the way I do because that's what makes life worth living - for me.  And I have accepted the fact that someday my SO might find out and take most everything I've worked for.   By accepting responsibility for my own actions - as do people excepting death as part of life - I'm not afraid or worried about the "what if's".  I have committed to enjoying my version of life.  If you're too concerned about your feelings afterwards, this hobby is not for you.

Good luck, be happy

"Other fear is sexually transmitted diseases."

Though I have no scientific proof for this, I have read on more than one occasion on these boards that it is a good practice to use a strong mouth wash, before and after oral sex.  It's also good to uhh... relieve yourself afterwards, to clear the plumbing so to speak.  And of course a shower.  I think this goes for both hobbyist and provider alike.

Good luck with your new hobby.

So were you surprised at your responses so far?

Surprised that guys who have been doing this are telling you not to?  Surprised that ladies who offer these taboo pleasures are telling you "You shouldn't dabble"?

Lots of guys and to be entirely fair ladies too, use this as a type of therapy.  In reality it is a vent at best.  And there are times when that is a necessary thing.  Maybe both you and your other aren't BOTH ready to work on your issues etc....

BUT if you BOTH aren't AWARE there are issues... then this isn't the time for the venting.  As was stated before we ladies tend to know when things change... but often we can miss the things that led to those changes.  And if you aren't communicating then she will miss those changes.

If it is a SigO situation and you are considering this... get clear.  If you are going outside to fix a non permanent relationship, then maybe you should consider scrapping that relationship. Harsh?  Yes... but better to find one that DOES work than use a band aid that will hurt someone other than yourself coming off.

If you are married.  Talk...talk talk.... Tell her what you have issues with.  Seek help if you can.  If she isn't willing...GO YOURSELF AND LET HER KNOW YOU ARE DOING IT!  Therapy that is... and here is why.  You are moving it from "selfish male pig" (sadly many womens take on mens sexual appetites) to "important need".  And tell her that you aren't going to cure you, you are going to find a way to deal with the fact that she is unwilling/able to meet that need.  Let her know you would rather do it with her help. It may not work.  It may be a breaker...

But this if it is discovered WILL DEFINITELY be a breaker... And you are indeed betraying a trust in doing so.  The trust that you agreed to work with her on issues... and chose not too.

I'm not saying that you should never do this.  Many can and do.  But from your post I would say you have other things to try FIRST.

Just my .2 Which for what it is worth I have told guys DURING a paid session... And here you are getting it for free.  

Rebecca

-- Modified on 9/28/2002 9:50:08 AM

I'm still pondering the concept that anyone who disagrees with you is "way out of line!"  My oh my, what a statement!

But really, I would love to hear you explain yourself further... as it stands now, I disagree strongly with the statement that "The only infidelity that matters is emotional infidelity." (Please do forgive if I didn't get that word for word, I didn't cut and paste. You are welcome to correct me.)

I think it's silly to make a statement like "You are so out of line!" without explaining *why* you feel that way... and I'd love to hear what you have to say!

Hugs*
Nicole

Put yourself in your wife's shoes, or thong panties as the case might be.  What if your wife wanted a new experience with a different man besides you. For example, let's say she wanted to experience a man with a larger, eh, certain part of his anatomy.  Then lets say she goes to a bar and allows herself to be picked up.  (Obviously, women don't need to see "providers.")  After checking out his "equipment" they go to a hotel room and have an hour or two of no commitment sex.  Would this bother you?  If does bother you, take up stamp collecting instead of this "hobby."

Put myself in my wife's shoes and I am a crossdressing basket case.  As much as modern society tries to melt men and women into the same mold - WE ARE DIFFERENT!  We are different as night and day, cats and dogs - Mars and Venus.  To say what is good for one is good for the other is the oldest, most abused saying in the fricken universe.   It all comes down to this simple question of economics - Why are 99.9% of all providers womnen who service men?  Gee, you think there could be a pattern there?

So does that mean it is justifiable for the guy to screw around but not the wife?

The poster you responed to never said fooling around was "good" for "her". His question was how would guys feel about knowing their wives fooled around in order to expand their "sexual horizons".

Or is it that you think married women don't do it?

As a guy who has spent his intimate time with married women when I'm have been between serious relationships, I can tell you the latter is a bad assumption. They are out there...LOTS OF THEM...with exactly the complaints cited above...insensative husbands who are incompetent in bed and too arrogant to even consider that they might want to try to get better so that they can please their wives. A good number of them aren't as "up tight" as some of you guys might like to think either...I often received "favors" from married women that they admitted they didn't try out home because their husbands never created a "safe" environment for experimentation. And, I'll say it again, I know many of you guys would prefer to be in denial about this, but SIZE (at least thickness) DOES MATTER, and especially so when no effort is made to gain knowledge and skills for using what you were born with (or in other words, a thoughtful skillful lover beats a well hung guy of medicore talent almost every time, but an average guy with poor skills will lose to that well hung guy 10 times out of 10).

Now, on the other hand, if your point is that it is justified for a guy to screw around but not so for his wife simply because they "are different", well, I really don't have a reasponse for that...

But, thankfully the world is full of guys who think just like that. It helps to ensure that I don't ever have to do without for very long...

-- Modified on 9/29/2002 6:24:37 AM

-- Modified on 9/29/2002 7:07:49 AM

Women love sex TOO!

Now whether they are getting what they need at HOME, is a whole 'nother issue. If you the gent aren't, what makes you think SHE is?

Hugs*
Nicole

Last *&^% place I felt I'd be lectured about this.  Did Good Housekeeping and Dr. Joyce suddenly take over this forum?  Insetad of trying to 'set us married men straight', maybe you single guys ought to lean down and kiss our asses because without us you wouldn't have a tenth of the fine ladies to choose from.    

I'm not trying to set anyone straight...just trying to answer the question posed...(by the orginal poster) and trying to understand the logic of your post. You said "women are different"...I'm just trying to understand how so...

I wasn't even remotely trying to lecture anyone...and said as much several times. I am just trying to beat back the perverse sense of denial that is pervasive on this board (my wife will benefit from my cheating....because women are different...its comical, actually...)

Have we struck a nerve perhaps? Any suspicions about how the
M-R-S is spending her time when you aren't around?

-- Modified on 9/29/2002 5:16:06 PM

Trying to set anyone straight...

Nor do I even BELIEVE in hell.

HOWEVER... this particular guy is obviously feeling guilty about what he is doing. He has misgivings. He is unsure. He is concerned about his marriage... and thus his first priority should be setting his marriage straight, or at the very least, making every attempt to do so.

FWIW I don't even believe in monogamy... for men OR for women. I think it's unfortunate that SO MANY of you poor guys HAVE taken this vow that you feel bound enough by to stick with, but not enough to stick with it *totally*... it puts you in a horrible place.  And for most of you I feel sorry for the situation you are in and try my best to offer what comfort, closeness, intimacy and happiness that I can.

Hugs*
Nicole

You're going way beyond answering the first gentleman's question by stating your opinions - your life style - your supposed moral high ground - as facts to us all.  The 'fact' that you don't see any difference between women and men puts your opinions in serious jeapordy.  (Read your previous post to see what I mean).  Then to prod me as to what my SO is doing presently denotes that I'm not taking care of my personal situation which suddenly becomes your concern because as you boasted - you've serviced many an unstatisfied spouse in your day.  Get off your high horse or change your nick from "MyLifeAsMe" to "YourLifeIsMyBusiness."

members voice their opinions without disrespecting one another.

Just remember the main purpose of the TER boards is to help other members with info and advices.

This message is directed to both MyLifeAsMe and Melivinator.  I like reading messages from both of you.  Don't agree with everything you guys had said.  However, the discussion on this thread is getting a bit out of hand.  I feel a need to call a timeout.

Sorry for being pretentious to assume the role of a referee.

-- Modified on 9/29/2002 11:33:38 PM

1.  Try to avoid appearing presumptuous.
2.  Try to refrain from making comments and asking questions about other people that come across as much more personal than you may realize they do.  This is what led to the "YourLifeIsMyBusiness" comment.  You are obviously very willing to discuss your personal life in detail, but others may not be.  Respect that.
3.  Keep posting.  You add a lot to the board.  

As my wife abandoned the marriage bed over a year ago, and gets hostile when I make mention of it ...

I don't feel a damn instant of guilt.  But for my children, I'd be out of the marriage now.