I don't see P4P as a conservative VS liberal issue at all.. I'm very very liberal.. but see nothing wrong with a woman who chooses to use her assets to make a living.. I do have issues with exploitation of women.. and P4P is not inherently exploitation.. It can happen just like women working to manufacture clothing in a sweatshop somewhere.. That's exploitation too.. It's very easy for some that are confused to label everything conveniently if they don't understand it..
As for "real men" vs..not real men.. when I was young, I would not have paid for sex.. 1 reason.. I couldn't afford it.. if I had the money I would have (and I frequently wish I had been able to years ago..)I can see this thread getting ugly and/or too political, and getting yanked. I hope that doesn't happen.
My sister-in-law posted some bit of pass-along poster work on Facebook that said, "real men don't pay women for sex." She's a big-time feminist and politically liberal, so I try not to get into politics with her. The old "don't try to teach a pig to sing" thing.
Anyway, I couldn't resist questioning her point. What's wrong, I asked, with a woman selling her services if she's willing to do so? There can be good money in it, I said, and many women like the business. She replied that it was using women, and degrading, and everything short of the Apocalypse.
"You," I said, "are constantly championing the right of a woman to choose. You're always saying 'don't tell me what I can do with my body'. But you want to tell other women what they can and cannot do with theirs. Isn't that hypocritical?"
She didn't have a good reply, and instead said that the issues are different, and the women who are into P4P (not her choice of terms) don't know what they're doing, etc.
Have any of you ever been challenged on the issue of P4P by any champions of women's rights? If so, what were your rebuttal points?
time not for sex
ha ha
is not it si rule number one with high end escorts?
and real men NEVER will go and pay for sex .. wow .. how low it is .. ha ha ha.
"Real feminists don't judge consenting adults."
Her views are the opposite of sex positive, liberal, or feminist.
My sister-in-law posted some bit of pass-along poster work on Facebook that said, "real men don't pay women for sex." She's a big-time feminist and politically liberal, so I try not to get into politics with her. The old "don't try to teach a pig to sing" thing.
Anyway, I couldn't resist questioning her point. What's wrong, I asked, with a woman selling her services if she's willing to do so? There can be good money in it, I said, and many women like the business. She replied that it was using women, and degrading, and everything short of the Apocalypse.
"You," I said, "are constantly championing the right of a woman to choose. You're always saying 'don't tell me what I can do with my body'. But you want to tell other women what they can and cannot do with theirs. Isn't that hypocritical?"
She didn't have a good reply, and instead said that the issues are different, and the women who are into P4P (not her choice of terms) don't know what they're doing, etc.
Have any of you ever been challenged on the issue of P4P by any champions of women's rights? If so, what were your rebuttal points?
She gets to be a feminist, yet still judge women based on their choices.
If you're going to call yourself something, be it. lol
Coming up with slippery slope answers will ruin her argument even more. She needs to stick to the core of what she's against.
I think the best response to her response is, "Women who stand up for women's rights don't know what they're doing." Maybe she'll understand that her making a judgement on a profession she's never been involved in is like a man telling a feminist what it's like to be a feminist.
We know exactly what we're doing.
-- Modified on 1/31/2014 4:13:51 AM
We had this sexual revolution in this country back int day of Ozzie and Harriet, and there was great sincerity to it, and loads of fun were had by all. But somebody back then summed up the turning. I forget if it was Margaret Mitchell or someone else. She observed, "When you take the clothes off Puritans, you get pornography."
Americans (in particular) were rather backwards in a lot of ways. Culturally, they had romanticized pair-bonding into socially utilitarian structures (sex was primarily for the production of cannon fodder for the wars) and censored anything that suggested sensuality as one of life's shades. So... Now, the throwbacks that are still shuffling around regard modern humans as exploiting each other. They still don't see the difference between exploiting a person and relating to a person.
It's like when you hear the expression, "Clothes make the man." There are many work and social situations where you say, "Yep, that is the truth."
But in another context-- think Woody Guthrie or your auto mechanic-- where the Clothes Make the Man idea seems foolish.
So... In the context of crawling out of the primordial swamp of Suburbia, USA, there's bound to be disjunct chords on the subject.
She's a hypocrite. She's also more than likely basing her opinion of sex workers on the age-old stereotypes that all women in the sex industry are abused, confused and desperate women who would never do sex work if they had other options available to them.
I doubt you are going to change her mind...
While the so called feminists scream about women’s rights and freedom, they see both from their own points of view. When women exercise their free will the feminist pins the blame for what real women do is due to men.
I am pretty sure your sister-in-law’s argument is that, if men don’t buy sex women can’t sell or human trafficking is because of men paying for sex. In first instance, men buying sex and paying for sex is as old as every civilization on the planet and is exasperated by “till death do part syndrome”. In the second case, it is an absurd argument like prohibition.
Legalize and license sex industry to curtail human trafficking
I don't see P4P as a conservative VS liberal issue at all.. I'm very very liberal.. but see nothing wrong with a woman who chooses to use her assets to make a living.. I do have issues with exploitation of women.. and P4P is not inherently exploitation.. It can happen just like women working to manufacture clothing in a sweatshop somewhere.. That's exploitation too.. It's very easy for some that are confused to label everything conveniently if they don't understand it..
As for "real men" vs..not real men.. when I was young, I would not have paid for sex.. 1 reason.. I couldn't afford it.. if I had the money I would have (and I frequently wish I had been able to years ago..)
It's not a liberal vs. conservative issue. She's very liberal, and I thought that was necessary in my description in order to further identify her pro-choice stance. IOW, she's close to being a militant feminist.
She's also nearly 300 pounds, ugly and loud.
grab a gal who's tanked to have a one night stand of (probably) unprotected sex. Or maybe she's up for the guy who carries on an affair with the wife of a friend or other family member, or having an office affair. These are great ways to lead to divorce, lose a job, or get hit between the eyes with a slug from a Saturday night special.
Real women's rights there, I guess.
Maybe she thinks that sex should be reserved for only people in a marriage-like situation. Good luck with that.
The fact of the matter is, p4p is the most honest and respectful form of sex between a man and woman that there is, at least outside of the marriage situation. (And that's obviously a debatable topic, but for another time.)
The fact that p4p is illegal exploits the woman and puts her in danger.
Look at the countries that outlaw p4p and you'll see a roster of the most backward countries in the world. Look at the ones where p4p is legal, and you'll find the most progressive, excepting the good old USA for various reasons.
You may not convince her, but at least it will shut her up for a while, which is just about as good.
who does not control her own body." - Margaret Sanger
Freedom IS feminism. Judgment is the harbinger of hypocrisy, clothed in the rhetoric of superiority.
Yeah, and Margaret Sanger wanted to control more than her own body. She would have approved of Auschwitz.
But back to P4P. 
. . . for married men who lie to their wives. Real men don't cheat.
By the way, my ex is a ultra-liberal feminist, and she is an activist for HIPS.
Historically, sex work empowers women. A brothel was about the only business a woman could own, and history of every culture is filled with stories of powerful men brought to their knees by courtesans.
First of all, I've been in two marriages and never cheated. But I don't judge men (or women) who do. There have been numerous threads here about the legitimate reasons for this. I choose not to judge.
Especially because knee-jerk judgmentalism is exactly what the problem is regarding traditional views of sex workers.
I do agree with your other thoughts.
By the way, this is the best thread I've seen here in a long time. Lots of very thoughtful comments by everyone, so thanks.
Some of those stories include women who were not prostitutes and who would never do this. This business only empowers those who have been abused, are needy and attention starved, or who can't do anything else with their lives. Another illusion women buy into. If sucking a married man's d*ck is all you need to feel empowered, the other areas in your life need some serious work.
How about considering men staying with their wives when they are injured, paraplegic, in coma, not interested, can't do for physical reasons, etc. Are you saying, men shoud divorce their wives?
That about most fucking selfish thing any man can do. As far as I know, only Family Value, Newt has accomplished that feat by divorcing his first wife when she was dying of cancer in the hospital. Fucker divorced her on her hospital bed.
I know of men stay with their invalid wives (accidents) because they truly care and love their wives.
You need to take you head out ass once in a while.
Thank you VERY much anonymous!! I was about to write basically the same reply, you beat me to it so good for you. I absolutely agonized over this issue for years before making the plunge. Lots more I could point out but won't here and now. Thank you again for this post!
Regards......RR
For some women, it is degrading because of the reasons they are here. She is right in a sense, but not overall. It really does depend on why a woman decided to come here. If she feels disgusted and degraded yet stays for the money, your sister in law is right. If she simply found a way to use men the way they have used us for years, she's just smart lol. I will say this... compared to all the free sex I gave away in my younger years, THIS is not degrading. I can't recall one hobbyist who fked me and left no payment, making me feel totally useless. I can't recall one guy here going to my high school and telling all his friends on the football team what a good time we had in the back seat.
Near the end, I did feel degraded but only by myself... not so much by the guys I saw, but that's faith not feminism. There was always this pull in two directions for me, and I finally made the choice to go the other direction... it was not that complicated of a thing for me to leave once I was ready.
I've never been the type of provider who sent her child to school or to a sitter so I could turn tricks all day.. no, I chose to have my child LIVE somewhere else until this part of my life was over, and felt that was the best thing for her. School districts also had a lot to do with it, but the main reason was I did not want her anywhere near what I did for a living. Childrren are not stupid. Mom gets all dolled up and comes home in 90 min. to 2 hours every time? Or, mom works from the very home that child sleeps in at night? Pathetic. If I did any of those things, damn right I would feel disgusted and degraded.
This business, just like porn, over sexualizes and under emotionalizes women... that's really what it does. It paints a picture of a woman who has no brain in her head, who is always ready to fk in lingerie, and has no emotions at all. Why do you think some guys get so mad when a hooker of all people puts him in his place on this board? Because it makes him feel better about himself if he can be deluded into thinking how much smarter and better he is. It takes the baggage and drama out of the equation, and you are basically left with a blow up doll who happens to have a pulse in that illusion. That is why so many men 'fall for hookers' because they fell for the illusion that she would be that way even after only five years of marriage... ha, not.
-- Modified on 1/31/2014 9:42:47 AM
Near the end, I did feel degraded but only by myself... not so much by the guys I saw, but that's faith not feminism. There was always this pull in two directions for me, and I finally made the choice to go the other direction... it was not that complicated of a thing for me to leave once I was ready.
I've never been the type of provider who sent her child to school or to a sitter so I could turn tricks all day.. no, I chose to have my child LIVE somewhere else until this part of my life was over, and felt that was the best thing for her. School districts also had a lot to do with it, but the main reason was I did not want her anywhere near what I did for a living. Childrren are not stupid. Mom gets all dolled up and comes home in 90 min. to 2 hours every time? Or, mom works from the very home that child sleeps in at night? Pathetic. If I did any of those things, damn right I would feel disgusted and degraded.
This business, just like porn, over sexualizes and under emotionalizes women... that's really what it does. It paints a picture of a woman who has no brain in her head, who is always ready to fk in lingerie, and has no emotions at all. Why do you think some guys get so mad when a hooker of all people puts him in his place on this board? Because it makes him feel better about himself if he can be deluded into thinking how much smarter and better he is. It takes the baggage and drama out of the equation, and you are basically left with a blow up doll who happens to have a pulse in that illusion. That is why so many men 'fall for hookers' because they fell for the illusion that she would be that way even after only five years of marriage... ha, not.
-- Modified on 1/31/2014 9:42:47 AM
Fantasy became a political-psychosexual undermining.
Porn is the largely the product of the caveman's imagination.
Sex is supposed to be fun.
So, I don't follow how it goes from porn turning women into blowup dolls to falling for hookers.
For my part, we could fall for an escort because we connected with that beautiful person.
And we're not judging her for the past(/present).
Sex is part of that connection.
We are hopeful it all will last, but we're not fools in general.
My HTG you have more baggage than I thought. Lol.
Might have been different in your case, but in general, what I posted is accurate for many. They are not falling for the person, but the illusion that person represents... a hyper sexual being that is always ready to cater to a man at every whimb, never moody, never emotional, and needing nothing. That's what the sex industry promotes... sex, with NO strings, baggage, or emotions attached.
Porn is the largely the product of the caveman's imagination.
Sex is supposed to be fun.
So, I don't follow how it goes from porn turning women into blowup dolls to falling for hookers.
For my part, we could fall for an escort because we connected with that beautiful person.
And we're not judging her for the past(/present).
Sex is part of that connection.
We are hopeful it all will last, but we're not fools in general.
My HTG you have more baggage than I thought. Lol.
My girl warned me there'd be a ton of baggage during a tearful dinner where she was wasted.
Silly me, I went for her anyway.
Back to the other thing, how could porn work otherwise? While a man/woman is spanking it, is he/she suppose to think that the woman on screen just got an abortion, is paying her way through a master's program, recovering from drugs, and barely taking care of two children.
Do we fault mainstream movies? Ive dreamt of being Richard Gere in Pretty Woman. Not.
How about soap operas? Or books with hookers?
Look, it's hard navigating a LTR with anyone, but especially a provider.
I'm actually sincerely interested in what you're saying.
I'd be lying if I said this has not come up as a sore topic, usually as a diversionary tactic during a fight.
-- Modified on 1/31/2014 12:09:25 PM
but not cynical. And sure as hell not easy (the second part).
Sure, there are clients who just want a warm blow-up doll, but then there are clients that find brains sexy too. I dare say you've met more than a few of the latter.
There are many ranges and shades in this very large ocean we swim in.
We can make all the judgments about them we like, but that isn't going to shed any light on the matter.
Like all things political, the correct path is to maximize opportunities and freedom in a way consistent with public safety and similar concerns.
Of course so much cultural and aesthetic baggage gets dragged in that getting logical laws and actions to follow is more the exception than the rule.
In the meantime, let's be glad that we seem to be thriving despite the obstacles.
I think your sister-in-law is either too dense or too blinded by radical feminist rhetoric to see an obvious distinction here. On the one hand, countless women are victims of human trafficking and are forced to sell their bodies. This is obviously a deplorable situation, and no one in their right mind could suggest that these women have a choice in the matter. On the other hand, the providers most of us see are making a fully voluntary choice to engage in their chosen profession. Indeed, I have a lot of respect for someone who finds a job they enjoy and do it well. Plus, providing is in many ways empowering. The women are their own bosses and set the rules: who they see, how much they charge, what they're willing to do, and on and on. (I never use agencies precisely because a lot of these benefits are missing.)
In the end, IMHO radical feminism is just plain silly. These are the people who argue that all sex is an act of male domination and therefore rape (e.g. Catherine MacKinnon). And the people who think a woman can decide to abort a fetus but are incapable of deciding whether to irrevocably give up a baby for adoption before it is born.
I have engaged with feminists on this point. I am liberal and on most issues do agree with most feminists.
As others on this thread have said the human trafficking side of prostitution is ugly and exploitative of many women who are virtually enslaved. However, this does not apply to the independents and probably most of the agency women we see on these pages.
So, the best tactic I have found in discussion with feminists is to concede what you must, that by numbers it is likely that the trafficking part of prostitution is horrible and should be stopped if it can be. But you can say that there are "call girls" who are in the business of their own free will and should be free to pursue it if they choose. I have often had feminists agree that the freely chosen part of prostitution is OK, even when they claim it is a small portion of the whole of prostitution.
There are "sex positive" feminists who are not in principle against the idea of freely chosen P4P or against certain types of freely chosen porn. But many feminists, not unlike the rest of respectable society, are judgmental as hell and are grossed out by the idea of P4P. For them, rational discussion of the topic is not possible. My pet theory is that the most strident of the feminist critics of P4P in any form are a bit grossed out by normal male sexuality and high sex drive men and this distaste fuels their discourse. Some of these women cannot imagine themselves having sex with multiple men whatever the price so they assume the women who do are forced to do it in some way.
-- Modified on 1/31/2014 2:41:21 PM
Is she married? If so, has she ever withheld sex from her husband because she wanted something or was mad at him? How many women get married, have kids, and never go back to work....essentially living off their husbands, and using sex as a weapon? And if they decide to file for divorce, they end up getting child support and/or alimony..... but those of us who CHOOSE to get paid on a per person encounter are somehow in the wrong, lol?
My sister-in-law posted some bit of pass-along poster work on Facebook that said, "real men don't pay women for sex." She's a big-time feminist and politically liberal, so I try not to get into politics with her. The old "don't try to teach a pig to sing" thing.
Anyway, I couldn't resist questioning her point. What's wrong, I asked, with a woman selling her services if she's willing to do so? There can be good money in it, I said, and many women like the business. She replied that it was using women, and degrading, and everything short of the Apocalypse.
"You," I said, "are constantly championing the right of a woman to choose. You're always saying 'don't tell me what I can do with my body'. But you want to tell other women what they can and cannot do with theirs. Isn't that hypocritical?"
She didn't have a good reply, and instead said that the issues are different, and the women who are into P4P (not her choice of terms) don't know what they're doing, etc.
Have any of you ever been challenged on the issue of P4P by any champions of women's rights? If so, what were your rebuttal points?