Been quite awhile since I have posted...this thread is not likely to be light...but hey, its 9-11 so I can be a downer.    


There are increasing op-eds (see below) which are pretty harsh on prostitution.  My question is to both providers and hobbiests...are we under the radar for these guys?  Or have I met the only happy hookers around?  I mean, I know providers are actresses, but I can tell abuse and compromised situations when I see them.  I have cancelled sessions when I feel the woman is not there of her own free will nor comfortable in the situation of being a provider.  Read on...

September 11, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Fantasies, Well Meant
By BOB HERBERT

I must have hit a nerve. While in Las Vegas last week, I interviewed the mayor, Oscar Goodman, who enthusiastically explained how legalizing prostitution and creating a series of “magnificent brothels” could be a boon to his city’s development.

Vegas is already a paradise for pimps, johns and perverts, and I accused the mayor in a column of setting the tone “for the systematic, institutionalized degradation” of women.

Mr. Goodman was not pleased. He snarled to the local press that he had no use for me, and added, “I’ll take a baseball bat and break his head if he ever comes here.”

The mayor, who made a name for himself as a defense lawyer for mobsters, loves to slip into a clownish, tough-guy persona. (He never lets anyone forget that he had a walk-on as himself in the movie “Casino.”) But behind his bluster is a serious issue that should be addressed.

A lot of people more thoughtful than Oscar Goodman believe that prostitution should be legalized as a way of protecting and empowering the women who go into the sex trade. I’ve lost patience with those arguments, however well meaning. Real-world prostitution, in whatever guise, bears no resemblance at all to the empowerment fantasies of prostitution proponents. I have never seen such vulnerable, powerless women as those in the sex trade, legal or illegal.

At Sheri’s Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour’s ride outside of Vegas, the women have to respond like Pavlov’s dog to a bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. It could be 4 a.m., and the woman might be sleeping. Or she might not be feeling well. Too bad.

When that electronic bell rings, she has five minutes to get to the assembly area, a large room where she will line up with the other women, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who happens to drop by.

“It’s not fun,” one of the women whispered to me during a tour of the brothel.

The first thing to understand about prostitution, including legal prostitution, is that the element of coercion is almost always present. Despite the fiction that they are “independent contractors,” most so-called legal prostitutes have pimps — the state-sanctioned pimps who run the brothels and, in many cases, a second pimp who controls all other aspects of their lives (and takes the bulk of their legal earnings).

They are hardly empowered. Years of studies have shown that most prostitutes are pushed into the trade in their early teens by grown men. A large percentage are victims of incest or other forms of childhood sexual abuse. Most are dirt poor. Many are drug-addicted. And most are plagued by devastatingly low levels of self esteem.

And then there are the armies of women and girls who are trafficked into the sex trade by organized criminals, both inside and outside of the U.S.

That a city, a state or any other governmental entity in the U.S. could legally sanction the sexual degradation of women and girls under any circumstances, much less those who are so extremely vulnerable, is an atrocity. And if you don’t think legalized prostitution is about degradation, consider the “date room” at Sheri’s. That’s a small room where a quiet dinner for two can be served. Beneath the tiny table is a couple of towels and a cushion for the woman to kneel on.

The only one empowered in that situation is the john.

Mayor Goodman’s concept of magnificence notwithstanding, Nevada’s legal brothels are not nice places. “The only place I’ve ever had a gun pulled on me was in a legal brothel,” said Melissa Farley, a psychologist and researcher who has studied the sex trade in Nevada for the past two and a half years.

Ms. Farley, who is in her 60s and has the demeanor of a college professor, was threatened at gunpoint by a legal pimp who didn’t like her attitude. “I tried to change the look on my face in a hurry,” she said.

Any honest investigation of the facts, as opposed to abstract theories, of prostitution — in any form — would reveal a horror show. That’s why the authorities in so many other countries that have given an official green light to prostitution, including Germany and the Netherlands, have been revisiting their policies.

Legal prostitution tends to increase, not decrease, illegal prostitution, in part by creating a friendlier climate for demand. It tends to increase, not decrease, sex trafficking. And the recent explosion of prostitution in all its forms promotes the sexualization of girls at ever younger ages.

Oscar Goodman should be viewed as a wake-up call. As a society, we should be offering help to the many thousands of women who would like to escape prostitution, and providing alternatives to those in danger of being pulled into it.

Bob Herbert is an idiot. With the notable exceptions of the USA and most of the muslim world, prostitution is legal in almost all of the civilized world.

I have been in the business for many years, by my own free will. I don't meet the stereotype, of the hookers they portray.

I grew up in the Midwest, in a very small town and my family was very conservative. So, imagine when I told them I was a "Hooker"... Thank God, they were very supportive and accepting of me. I guess you call that unconditional love. I feel very fortunate that I can be my self and not have to live a double life. I'm sure that I am the exception to the rule, not sure though...

Hey, here's one Happy Hooker, you haven't met

Kelly



-- Modified on 9/11/2007 1:34:00 PM

Herbert's columns on this subject are really talking about a different class of provider than those who are frequented by the members of this board.   They are girls, mostly young, who feel that they have no choice but to go into the sex industry, but really don't like what they are doing.  

With rare exceptions, the providers who are reviewed here and participate in discussions are as happy with their profession as most people are happy with theirs.   The providers I meet might stay in this profession because it is more lucrative than other jobs they feel they could do, but they are not trapped in it, nor under the thumb of pimps and unscrupulous agency owners, the way the girls are that are discussed in Herbert's column.  

I have thought of writing him a letter and telling him about the other side of the profession, but then thought better of it.  LOL

Sometimes when I visit an AMP, I am not sure if all of those chicks are there of their own doing... In that kind of situation I usually try to treat them extra nice and give them a big tip (privately). But then again, maybe that's what they are counting on... well I rather err on the side of niceness.

Most of the escorts I meet don't seem to have any problems with it though. Even when they come through an agency. And while I agree that the providers certainly face a bigger risk, you also have to consider that there are plenty rip-offs out there, which is one of the reasons this website exists I guess.

For me goes: Happy provider=happy me

I wholeheartedly agree with man's take....in certain situations, however as far as I am concerned it is so far from my reality it may as well be on Uranus.

I do not nor have I ever felt exploited. In fact I see who I want to see, when I want to see them, charge what I see fit, do what I see fit. I answer to nobody but myself. Where else can a woman say that.

Hell there's a whole lot more disrespect in the corporate world as far as women go. There's the ver present "Old Boys Club" , the glass ceiling, sexual harrassment and lack of promotion in case you get pregnant.

And if a client is rude to me I can throw him out. If I worked  in a service industry and was demeaned or humiliated, the customer is always right and I would probably be fired for defending myself...in fact that did happen in a previous career in the medical field..although not fired it was hard to work in that environment after the "incident".

Society does not want to hear about the success stories of hooking. They want Oprah-fied stories where the poor unfortunate woman is saved from her own private hell (escorting)....look, she found Jesus!

Escorting done right, is a very lucrative field. It is not something that has much longevity for some...unless you go into it as a career path, but it certainly does help you up your own personal corporate ladder.

It's not just the age of these women which is a key difference.  It's also that the LV brothels are a tough place where the women can make very good money but only if they sign on to a corporate organization where there is no free sell.  Not to mention to brutal upselling structure.  At the "top" places, a good one hour date is supposed to cost 3K.  That means the girl is supposed to talk the guy into the 3K no matter what, even if she knows from the minute she starts talking to him that he's spending his last dollar.  

I know one well-known provider who tried this route, and she hated it.  

The prblem is, Las Vegas isnt just making prostitution, legal, it's making pimping legal.  France and England are way ahead of the U.S. on the curve.

The Ladies I've meet seemed happy to me, course they could be acting. Don't think so however. lol

You just don't know that you're miserable.  Apparently, that's part of the problem and why you need the protection of big brothers like him.  Not only are you downtrodden, but delusional as well.

And all along, you thought you were happy.  Go figure.

What would we do without government to protect us from ourselves? We are obviously too stupid to take care of ourselves.

and know what harassment that goes on, it is awful! My manager humiliated me everyday. I ask to be moved, by his manager, no they couldn't do it and HR didn't do Jack Shit for me either!

This is the 1st. time, I felt like I was being pimped, that's when I decided I'd rather pimp myself, as I control my own destiny

Kelly

-- Modified on 9/11/2007 7:21:33 PM

I've dated a few girls that have worked at AMP's. Trust me, none of them were "sex slaves". One of them also worked a few months out of the year just outside of Reno, in one of the legal brothels that the dumbass Bob Herbert referred to. She told me she preferred the brothel because she liked the competition. Go figure.

I do have to agree with your adage;
Happy provider=happy me. There is no less enjoyable sex than sex with someone who is obviously not enjoying it too. You might as well be in a bad marriage. lol

Kornlover raises a good point.

I have friends that absolutely HATE their jobs but go to work anyway. The reasons vary: money to maintain a lifestyle or to put kids through school, health insurance, pension, etc. One friend works 60 to 70 hours per week because she's deathly afraid of losing insurance coverage for her husband's chronic medical issues.

In that context I feel that using "job unhappiness" as one reason to fight legalization of commercial sex is a poor one.

I do think that many, many women are forced unwillingly by circumstance or by coercion into the industry. It would be nice to reduce or eliminate those conditions. Would supporting a system of legal independent providers help with this?

In Los Angeles, there's a very large number of Asian providers that match a consistent pattern:

1. Inexpensive ($300 or less for an FS hour)

2. Young. (18-21 it seems, though I admit I often have trouble guessing the age of younger women in general, and Asian women in particular)

3. Incall.  Always.  With seemingly high turnover.

4. Agency, though often a "stealth" agency.

5. Recent breast enhancement surgery.

At first I didn't give the traffic issue much thought.  The girls didn't appear to be under the supervision of guards--had they been slaves kept against their will they could, I figured, easily escape and contact police.

Later it dawned on me that the chains might not be readily visible to my amateur eye.  Girls could be kept in line with threats, and contacting police might not be (or appear to be) as appealing an option to a foreign sex slave as I imagine they'd be.

And then I read about a string of AMP busts in Las Vegas in which trafficking was alleged.

So this has left me in a spot.  I especially love youngish (18-25) Asian providers, but I can't stand the thought of abetting a slave-running racket.  I find the hobby to be morally unobjectionable so long as all concerned are consenting adults, but it'd be deeply immoral to visit with a provider who's being kept as a slave and coerced into providing against her will.  That's the moral equivalent of rape, and I won't be a rapist.

So how can a hobbyist tell if a provider is genuinely a consenting adult, and not a slave, kept against her will, who fears that a John might rat her out to her pimp if she confides in him?

Writers like Bob Herbert have been around forever. He espouses the traditional "sex is evil, prostitution will lead to the downfall of morality and humanity" POV. Who cares? We are in this hobby because we have decided that we enjoy having NSA sex with beautiful women that would not give us the time of day if we were not waiving money at them. Personally I'm OK with that. If some guy who gets paid to try and be controversial doesn't like it that's his problem. not mine.
To be sure there are women who should not be escorting. Just as in any job some people try it, don't like it, or do it for too long but are trapped by the money. That's a shame but ultimately it's up to those women to do what is best for them and do the right thing with their lives.

As far as some AMPS or any other brothel type of situation that forces illegal immigrants to perform sex acts, I don't patronize them and I don't think anyone else should either. It's not that hard to figure out the situation if you are being offered FS for $50.

I have no trouble finding escorts who are intelligent, beautiful and not only willing but enthusiastic participants in my quest for hot sex.
I think Bob Herbert needs a good BBBJ from any of the last three or four women that I've seen. It would definitely change his tune...

-- Modified on 9/12/2007 6:05:56 AM

I'm sure he has had that and more. He is only covering for his own descent into this world and like many before him, he is most likely the epitomy of hypocrisy.

Those that protest too much are in as deep as the rest of us.

they are needed sometimes so sweeps can be made of the streetwalkers.. they are a blight on society.

the problem is the misappropiation of tax dollars due to irresponsibile management of police priorities.  cant blame them really, if i was a male cop i'd rather play with naked women than chase down real criminals and risk my life.  someone just needs to step in and say, we chase the naked women after we get the murderers, child molesters, etc.

setting up escorts stings is persecution of our industry and escorting is a licensed industry just like most others. you have to purchase an escort license in phoenix and each of the surrounding suburbs individually.

but they dont set up elaborate stings to catch doctors, accountants, construction contractors or any other licensed industry to try to catch them doing something against the law or operating without a license.

the laws are fine. the police need to be reminded what their priorities are.  its common sense to most of us and shouldnt be necessary but apparently it is.

there are some countries that have legalized prostitution however it is illegal to profit from a prostitute.

in those countries they have great success. i may be wrong but i believe sweden is one of them.

I'm opposite of the claims of Bob Herbert. I started escorting late in life (30's), I started and continue on my own free will. My start in the brothels was of my own free will and I was HAPPY to be there. It was a very safe enviorment. It did get a little boring at times but that normal for most any work. As time went on, I ventured into the real world and I'm still happy!

I have met plenty of unhappy people in this business but it's their choice to be happy or unhappy. It's their choice to stay or leave.
(I'm speaking of those who are independent)You are the only one responsible for your happiness, no one else.

Yes, there will always be the negative side to this business, pimps,slavery, etc. but I believe times are changing at least a little.

I have trouble respecting anyone like that mayor who actually wants to legalize it on that basis. Even so, Bob Herbert doesn't do his homework here. He could go to escortblogs, he could read the boards like TER and find out what providers really say about their work. All of that is available to him now. He writes as though the internet doesn't exist; this is stunningly ignorant.

I will note something paradoxical: both sides base their arguments on what is best for women. The headscarf in Islam is purportedly to allow women to be respected as people. How is this that opposite policies are proposed for awarding women control, dignity and equality?

IMHO, maybe, just maybe . . . women are as diverse as men are? I mean, when people make blanket rulings on what dignifies or debases women, that's making a rule for 50 percent of the population of the earth. One prescription or rule is not going to fit all of them, or even a lot of them. The lawmakers, prescribers and moralists only consider the women they have known or an ideal that they have. None of them fit any, or even most women.  

What do you mean when you say that the Nevada system would sway anyone against legalization?  You didn't explain, and my opinion is that it has good and bad.  What am I missing?

I doubt that I would be interested in being a customer at the rates they charge, but as far as working conditions go, I dated a gal who worked in a brothel outside of Reno and she had mainly positive things to say.

That some of the brothels are run like a plantation where the provider is a virtual prisoner.

The employment laws of Nevada do not apply to the brothels either.

I have a favorite provider who went out to Nevada and worked one weekend and left claiming it to be one of the more horrific experiences in her life.

The brothel owners should be brought to task and forced to provide decent working conditions and much fairer deals to their employees.

'That some of the brothels are run like a plantation where the provider is a virtual prisoner.'

I can only speak for the 2 reputable brothels I had worked at one for a total (off and on) for 1 year and the other 2 weeks. They both were run as professoinal as you can expect for the people they hire there. Remember they are out in no mans land so the help are the country folk that live in the area. They abide by the laws according to the state and are very strict. Maybe your friend went to a low end one? Or maybe it just wasn't for her. You know,they don't call them 'Cat' houses for no reason...Rrraaannnggg, Hissss!!! lol! It's like living in a sorority house with 25 working girls!

'The employment laws of Nevada do not apply to the brothels either'

Ummmm, everyone is an independent contractor. They are not employees, except staff.


'The brothel owners should be brought to task and forced to provide decent working conditions and much fairer deals to their employees'

I could see how someone could misunderstand some of the working conditions, such as being woke in the middle of the night, but the girls are there to work. It's not vacation time. The ones who booked the most money get to sleep, the others (escpecially those who didn't book as much or anything) get woken up. It helps them to make an income. And sometimes girls would make a killing in the middle of the night.
The girls are there a minimum of one week and are always free to leave.
I have heard stories of brothel owners that were scum.

It is a person's choice who and where to work. At least those who are free of a pimp and other controlling issues.

The women stay in the brothel for 3-4 weeks at a time, during which they can hardly ever leave. While they're in the brothel, their lives are totally controlled. They are isolated from their children and families. It's also almost like being in the military. If it's 4 a.m. and a customer arrives, get up time to muster, just like in the military, except in lingerie. Herbert is accurate about that.

Though women are closely controlled, eavesdropped, and confined in the brothel, they are considered private contractors.  

Then you talk about the pay structure and who does the work and who gets the money. It's all set to be raked off by the brothel owner. The house takes 50 percent, plus some extra fees.  I've heard if a cab driver brings the customer out, the driver gets 20 percent-- taken from the womans side of it. There are other fees she is subject too.  The system has given pimps the status of management.

For customers you have the repulsive practice of the up sell. It kills whatever atmosphere the encounter could have had. And with the extra overhead from the institutionalized pimp, it's impossible that the prices are competitive with almost anywhere else. In other words, the customers aren't that happy, the women aren't happy, the pimps are really happy.  

There is one good thing about the system: it has been extremely effective in controlling STD's-- women are tested monthly for HIV and weekly for other diseases. Since mandatory testing began in 1986, not one woman working in the brothels has come up HIV positive.  

Thanks for that.  I don't necessarily agree, but I can appreciate your points.

From my understanding, which comes from one on one discussion with one brothel owner and her madam, their minimum stay was one week, although I don't know what would happen if the girl wanted to leave before that time.  The reason was that each girl needed to be tested before she could work.  Testing day was Tuesday at this particular establishment, and results didn't get back for a day or two.  From the business owner's (or pimp to you) point of view, he needed enough girls that could work to cover customer demand.  State mandated testing is also what drives the decision to not let the girls leave.  If a girl leaves, the state's position is that she may engage in an activity that puts future clients at risk, and must be tested again.  You can see where that would become a problem if all of your employees in any business needed to be quarantined every time they left work.  The vast majority of the ranches are out in the boonies, so coming & going is generally not a ride into town, but a several hour trip back to a big city.  In short, it's the practical way to keep a regular workforce in place.  To be fair, the girls are aware of that before they arrive and agree to it.  Most ranches don't actively recruit girls, because most don't need to.  The ones that have the toughest time are usually in the most remote areas, and in those cases, both sides are trying to figure out how to earn enough (and use the other party as the most ready target).

The girls are typically under surveillance, because the negotiation process is done behind closed doors, and the house needs to be sure that it gets its cut.  That also protects the girls from the problem client, for what it's worth.  Living in Nevada, I guess I've become accustomed to being watched a lot, so that doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.  Casino workers typically don't make much money and are taped throughout their entire shift.

Once again, my experience is largely around one location.  They deducted the cost of limo service from both sides, so the girl paid half.  Her additional financial commitment was $21/day for meals, etc.  It didn't look overly gourmet to me, and I remember a lot of peanut butter.  I don't know that they were rationed, but the kitchen cupboards were FAR from bare.

You mention the health safety aspect.  That does create inconvenience (the testing stuff above).  The other piece of the puzzle that many people don't know is that most ranches are the biggest sources of tax revenue in their county.  Unfortunately, we can't have government without paying for it, and this is clearly the wrong forum to discuss whether it's got value, but the communities that have brothels tend to be supportive because they would not have the schools or hospitals without them.  There was a recent (year or so ago) push in Nye County to close the brothels by a politician new to the community.  He quickly reversed his decision when public outcry threatened his political career, and some would say his existence.

So, they're not perfect, but they do have a place.  My guess is that Mr Herbert has never seen the inside of one, met the owner, met the madam, or talked to one of the girls who wasn't trying to sell to him.

I think most women would find the working conditions better than they are at WalMart.  There are negatives, and I know a lady or two that didn't care for it as well.

Nevada brothels are insanely regulated.  If anything, the amount of regulation is part of the problem.

As with any employment situation, some employers are better to their employees (or independent contractors in this case) than others.

I am sure that if Mr Herbert had met anyone with first hand knowledge he would still have wrtten the same article. Some people are not interested in the facts, especially if the facts contradict their preconceived notions.

One other thing, even if the working conditions could use some improvement, a sentiment I have not heard echoed from anyone who has actually worked for a brothel, but even if you want to call them prisoners, they are extremely well paid prisoners

There are PLENTY that find not much wrong with the brothels. Of course there are negatives,what work doesn't have negatives???? Maybe the ladies you spoke to were in a crappy brothels, they all are different. Some upscale, some trailers joined together,and some shit holes.

I and all the other ladies I worked with were treated well. To be fair, there were ladies who I did see leave in a day or so, who knows why?  Everyone has their reasons... drug addicts, pimp issues,just didn't like it, whatever!.. The brothels are strict about rules because they have to be. Not much different than independent ladies who make their own rules.

Believe me, it's not that bad if you're in a reputable place. I know several ladies who have worked legally for several years and who like the enviorment. There's nothing wrong being in a safe enviorment with rules set into place for very good reasons.

I think the perspective of an outsider may be quite different than actually experiencing it.
I have experienced it and there is nothing wrong with it(if you're in a good place, but they all differ to great degrees). I could tell you endless strories about the many fun times I had there. Did it get dull & boring? Sure, but that happens from time to time with any work.

I confuse myself at times, and I know me.  You didn't stand a chance.