I'm following up on Transcend2007's post about people turning angry and negative on him.

I'm not surprised that hobbyists and providers scream and rant and rave and flame people for posts that they don't agree with.  If you think Transcend got it bad, check out the vitriol and bile that gets spewed all over the Politics and Religion Board on a regular basis.  I think that there's more anger and bitterness on the TER discussion boards because this subculture attracts a disproportionate number of angry and dysfunctional people.

(Here comes the part that's going to piss people off.)  I think a significant number of providers have real anger issues towards men. They just hate men because when she was young some man emotionally or physically abused them; usually in a sexual way.  And they cannot have a sexual/romantic relationship with a man and being a provider gives them a sense of power and control over men sexually, that was so lacking in their early and formative years.  And they use sex as a weapon (of sorts) against men in the same way that a man used sex as a weapon against her at a young age.

By the same token, I think many hobbyists have anger issues toward women, and by paying them and "pounding her pussy hard from behind until she begged me to stop" is their way of  exacting revenge for their wounding at the hands of a woman, whether it was an abusive mother or the girls in school who always taunted him and refuse to go out with him, let alone fuck him.

Of course, I'm NOT saying ALL providers or ALL hobbyists are like this, but you're bound to find more of them in this business than in the population at large.

Okay.. go ahead and rip me apart and tell me what an asshole I am.  I'm expecting it.

you had to post your diatribe twide.

Why are you playing both sides of the street? If you want to take a stand, take it. No one will kick your ass... And by the same token...

Who doesn't have a few issues now and then and while there are permanently fucked up people trolling these boards and the streets, so what... Life always gets in the way and it mostly depends on how you choose to deal with it. What happens is when people get caught up in the quest for more. It's usually then when the wheels come off and they start engaging in dysfunctional behavior.

-- Modified on 1/20/2008 3:13:21 PM

This is almost the time for "duh". There will be every aspect of a larger culture (people) in a subculture (hobbying).

You can also go on to say that mentally fit, intelligent men and women indulge in this hobby without coercion or ulterior motive.

And saying "but you're bound to find more of them in this business than in the population at large." is wrong. Because the population at large will have ALL of the dysfunctional people, whereas hobbying will only have SOME.

b-

That might explain wasting your time stating the obvious in a way guaranteed to offend. With age, you'll learn it pays to be a little gentler and considerate.

I've seen very little evidence that there is more hostility and anger expressed on this board as compared to what I've experienced in other areas in my personal and business life. I've seen many more demostrations of hostility and anger in churches, and various religious discourses. Imagine that! The supposed "sinners" behaving more humanely than the supposed "righteous."

By the way, why the alias?

-- Modified on 1/20/2008 3:29:46 PM

er - the people he describe are all over not just in the biz.
The whole escorts are victims is crap from the olden days of making the hobby illegal by some society women a hundred years ago.
It's crap.
There are just as many fuck ups as not here and in society at large.
I think a lot of wanna be non hobbyists are posting on this hot ass board.
Thanks for the post blath-yer cool.

Yes, you have more experience than the OP.
He must be new to forums.

...thats not a safe assumption, at all. How about basic human nature and supply and demand? People like to screw... men don’t mind paying if its what he is looking for, and women like to get paid for something they enjoy... no mystery.

I think the anger stems from society in general; on a whole, we are fast becoming a more anxious and reckless civilization. I see a sad pattern emerging more and more every day, in roadrage, parenting skills,  inter-office interaction… and other daily tasks. And many, if not most of us, are otherwise normal people outside of the hobby (I mean normal, as far as society is concerned). Your typical client is a working class man, and I know many ladies who moonlight as providers only and have regular jobs. So daily, as we go about our usual steps we take, we are bombarded with frustration from ourselves and others. People are notoriously empathical, whether they know or believe it or not. So when we exude disdain or discomfort, people around you can pick up on it. On a personal level, we could be angry at ourselves for simple things like, not having the balls to talk to the boss about a promotion, or breaking a diet, or forgetting to pick up your drycleaning; and then we unknowingly send that energy out to others. Then, vice versa, people can be sending their animosity out to you to receive. Then, we have to deal with the rest of the angst in the world: there is traffic, and lines at stores, and babies crying, and unhappy spouses, and bills and misplaced blame; it can overwhelm even the most placid, harmonious creature… The same old stresses we have always had, but they seem more intense these days because of our busy existance. We are constantly in motion, and have become impatient, spoiled uber-Americans, who are used to things going as fast as a webpage can load. Thus, we are feeding one another fury, on a constant… and it takes it toll over time... then we have other elements surrounding us that don’t ever bring us any peace… If anything, the hobby should the one thing that can pacify us (no pun intended).

Me? I know I have a temper problem sometimes, and I know why. Im not rash; I do not fly off the handle for just any reason, and I don’t over exaggerate in response, either, its always validated and never unprovoked. But, it is NOT because of an innate dislike for men, or my profession. I always enjoy myself, and I have always had very enjoyable, very respectful, and very attentive friends… I could ask for no more.

I got bagged in my post on the LA boards, about my phone being broken… For no reason, people felt the need to respond and let me know what they thought, about something so silly, even though it wasn’t relevant in any way to them. I got very upset, because it was rude and unnecessary, but I became the bad guy. It was a whole big deal… I know what you mean about the posts being more and more angry… but I think your rational for it is waaay off…


Dani

You posted this hoping to get flamed, so its like shooting ducks in a barrel. Boring

Regarding your analysis, I think you have described both some hobbyists and some providers alike. I'm more of a glass half full kind of gal though, so I believe that your description fits only a small number of hobbyists/providers, rather than the majority.

I freely admit to being a sex addict, and well, there are at least a few men who can attest that its true. I was once told by a BF that he thought I was only interested in him for sex. He wasnt entirely wrong, since we had little in common other than a couple of powerful sex drives. I just couldn't understand how any red blooded male would have a problem with that! So my reason for providing, and the reason I enjoy it rather less sinister than having a secret loathing for men

On the other hand, I once read a study that estimated that one in four women had experienced some form of sexual aggression or abuse. I suspect that estimate may be accurate. So the question is, what proportion of the female population are providers? I suspect it is far less than one in four women, so one must assume that perhaps not all women who have been abused become providers, and not all women who become providers do so because they were abused.

Now, for the flames....LOL I just can't come up with a good smart a$$ comeback to flame you with. I'll try again later.

Your's is much more insightful than the original post. With all that anger flying around, it's much more helpful for each person to slow down and engage in honest reflection upon what part is being generated by ourselves, and what part is being generated by another.

what your post is obviously all about.  My friend, you cannot possibly generalize or psychoanalyze a whole group of people based on their anonymous behavior on an internet discussion board.  Therefore, you are actually, and obviously, transferring what you feel about women, and how you think women feel about you, to your analysis contained in your post.  Since that is so, I encourage you to get some help when you can, or are ready to.

I also notice that you have posted this under an alias to an alias.  None of us use our real name on these boards, yet you feel the need to hide behind an even further alias.  This suggests an element of shame and humiliation which you should also address when you are able.  Relax, this is not a flame, but an observation and and anonymous analysis of you; something that you seem fond of.

This hobby is really the oldest past-time in human societal interaction.  Everyone who participates in this hobby does so for their own individualized reasons, and no matter what moralistic, value and norm based opinion you have formed regarding the hobbyists and providers, you cannot change the fact that we don't all have the same problems with women and intimate contact that you obviously do.

By the way, regarding your characterization of the Politics and Religion Board; if you just stop and think about it for a bit, you will have to understand that people who discuss politics and religion are going to be passionate and strident about their positions by the very nature of the subject matter.

Bottom line:  Stay out our heads brother, and look to yourself.

"i'm expecting it" = hey! can't wait to hear your lame ass rebuttals!

this guy needs a bath.

...take for instance, the old days of "whoring", if you will. A whore, in many societies was a respected member, often given privileges that many upper class women weren’t. They were well-read, exquisite, refined creatures, who could participate in philosophical meetings, were privy to information from their high up clients, own property, freely mixed in social circles and were greatly respected, above all. Then, over the course of the last thousand years, it took a turn; they started to be looked down upon, it was a profession of sinners, that attracted sinners, and along with the attack of religious persecutions became and underground practice that was performed and indulged by mainly the dregs of society. It had lost its luster…

Though it was always in the background of life, it was rarely and open art. It got a few rescuing breaths of revival in the 1800s, when, with the outlaw western life people began to be more open to it again, even treating the ladies better… but it was short-lived, due once more to societies’ wish to uphold a sin-free outward appearance. Once again, it was deemed unacceptable for a real lady to dabble in, and left to the slag of the world.

The world wars, brought an even worse light into the dim, red glow, because of constant governmental mandates about cavorting with call girls. The forced std tests, and the films that sent a worldwide message to the soldiers about the misfortunes of those who cant resist the call of all the exotic ports they visited, put a real halt on things as well. Often the government would step in and relocate ladies, and set up a guarded perimeter to keep them at bay. It was well known that whores caused horrors for the men and their families…

But, then, in the 60s, as sex, itself, began to lose its value, with the advent of the pill, and the idea of free love… thus was born the slow growing process of acceptance of people giving it away as they pleased, particularly for women. So, the obvious next step is acceptance of selling it. But, it still was thought selling sex of as a displeasing occupation and as psychology was at its peak at the very same time, we began to overanalyze every move America and its newfound detached youth made. Under constant scrutiny, call girls were pegged as callous, unmotivated, deviants, who either needed male attention at all times, or were selling themselves because they thought of themselves as worthless, otherwise, due to abuse of some form or another…. a huge misconception.

Through years of cosmo, playboy, and sexually charged music we have come to realize that we, as humans, are naturally very prone to erotic stimulation… And as we look today, with sex selling everything from diet pills, to hamburgers, we’ve become bombarded so much that we don’t even notice… but our subconscious does. Every personal lubricant commercial, every Viagra ad, every tv show full of hott, sexy people, programs us further to believe that sex is ok… which is the truth. And more and more women, perfectly healthy, mentally stable women, make the cognizant decision to become working girls, with no lament or refrain concerning it, what so ever. These days, you don’t need to feel bad, or worthless, or resentful to accept the idea of selling your body… that’s a stupid assumption and a copout that people use to try and make us feel bad. And I, like many, refuse to buy into it!

Sorry for the history lesson, I just like to clarify, whenever I make a point!



Dani

I'm not playing both sides of the street. I'm just giving equal time and not passing judgment. I'm just making an observation of what motivates and drives people; what makes them do what they do.

You'll notice that I never judged either providers or hobbyists in any way. I did not say they were bad people, did bad things, were misguided, evil, not worthy of love or compassion, or anything else.

I think it's important, very important, for all of us to see the truth in what I wrote.  If everyone recognizes that many providers come from abusive backgrounds, then perhaps many of the men who believe it's okay to  disregard provider's  feelings and  treat them like pieces of meat who are there to simply cater to their sexual needs.

Well said!  I for one particpate in this profession because I enjoy what I do!  The day I stop liking it, is the day that I quit!

Kari

have trashed their beer drinking swingin' dicks who are their friend from work for not calling back because of phone issues. Absolutely not!  

Believe me, I'm on your side.  I think many men, way too many men, have so little respect for women in this society that they feel there is no need to treat them with the sensitivity and tenderness they would their male friends.

call you on your misrepresentations.  You were more than judgmental.  You said that the majority of us hate or are angry at each other.  The Providers hate men,and the men just want to pound the women in retribution.  You cannot think that those characterizations are not judgmental.  Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or you are a little out of your mind.

You may seek retribution on women, and feel that they hate you, but don't put that on us.

about a very serious issue in this country. And that is the epidemic of  sexual abuse of children; especially young girls.  If you don't think 1 in 4 constitutes an epidemic, then what does.

Can anyone disagree with me that there is probably a greater incidence of childhood sexual abuse in the population of providers then there is in the population at large?

I've had the unique opportunity to work on the other side of the fence in this business and become friends with many providers; providers with whom I have never had sex.   And I can tell you that I've heard more horrific stories of abuse than I care to remember.  Of course, there's plenty of women who love to fuck in this business; just as many as there are in any other business.  But here's the tragic part.  Unlike their sisters in the civilian world who love to fuck, so many providers can't seem to combine find sex, love, and trust in the same person.  They have to compartmentalize.  They love to fuck one person, love someone else, and trust another person.

It would be nice if sex was fun, healthy, and life affirming rather than a weapon that destroys young lives. It would be a great day for America when we can all fuck as much as we want, women can get paid for fucking guys that they normally wouldn't, and everyone can still go home and fuck people with love just for the pure enjoyment of sharing the most enjoyable part of life with someone we love and trust.

I'll be glad to forward my home address to anyone who still wants to piss in my mailbox or slash my tires.




-- Modified on 1/20/2008 6:09:32 PM

...I just think its unfair to state it so generally speaking.

I have many male friends, both in and out of the hobby; infact most of my friends are guys (or gay girls), and they often strike me as less sensitive at times, or dismissive even, when referring to women, but they don’t come across as complete jerks, ever! And they aren’t damaged folks either, at least not any more than anyone else in this world. My point is, people these days are angry, in some way or another, its unfair to target people in this world, alone.

I agree, there are many assholes, and I have just been lucky to have come upon one in person. But I dont dare place that title on most, or even many, is all...

I appreciate that you are on my side, though, really. I felt like no one could see the error in those postings!


Dani

will see that I'm pointing out that providers are statistically less likely to have long term intimate relationships than the population at large.  

I have no hostility toward women. Quite the opposite.  That's the reason for my post in the first place. I was trying to point out that the epidemic of sexual abuse makes for a lot of lonely and empty lives.  And sexual abuse drives women to compartmentalize their lives. Sex in one compartment and love and trust in other compartments.  

Can we live with compartmentalized lives?  Sure we can.  But to be able to combine sex, love, and trust in one relationship with one person is perhaps the greatest joy life has to offer.  It's exceptionally rare to be able to find that,  and the odds are against any of us finding that.  But with sexual abuse at epidemic proportions, it seems more unlikely that many people will experience that.




-- Modified on 1/20/2008 6:09:12 PM

You are now pandering to providers...

None of us really know anything about any of us.  Therefore, you cannot generally psychoanalyze a "large" number of us based on the conclusions you have drawn from your own experience with some providers who have troubled pasts and reading posts from some angry men.

If you truly wanted to start a discussion regarding the incidence of child sexual abuse and its effect on subsequent intimacy issues, then you should have raised the subject without generally indicting a large number of providers and hobbyists as angry, hating, intimacy vigilantes.

You assume that the natural reaction to the problems that you raise is to grow up hating the opposite sex.  This is just not true, and, more importantly, engaging in this hobby is not a typical manifestation of those symptoms.

Again, raise your issues, but stay out of our heads.

I'm not indicting anyone. Indicting is to "charge someone with a fault or an offense."   Did you see me say anywhere in my post that people need to be punished?   That they are not good people? That they don't deserve kindness, respect, or understanding?  No.

I'm not psychoanalyzing anyone, but if you did a complete and honesty survey of women in this business, I guarantee you, that a majority of them have abuse in their backgrounds. That DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD PEOPLE.  IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM MENTALLY ILL.  IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM DEFECTIVE.  IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM CHEAP WHORES.  IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNWORTHY or LESS DESERVING OF OUR RESPECT OR KINDNESS.  Quite the opposite.  They deserve an extra helping of kindness and respect after the trauma that many have been subjected to.

Actually, I know that's not possible - lol.  But, each of us can do our part individually.  As I stated below I know I have made mistakes on the national board and I have responded in anger.  I have chosen going forward to listen more intently, take things less personally and make a sincere effort to be more positive overall.  However, more than likely you’ll still have to put up with me posting.

The truth is even though I strongly disagree with many posts and posters the overall discourse has yielded interesting thought provoking dialog.  It is unlikely anyone comes to TER for actually medical knowledge or to hear someone's personal stories.  It is more about being part of the hobbying community.  We are participating in a socially unaccepted activity (illegal in most states).  We all come here to feel a common bond and yes to be accepted.  No doubt that is why I post personal experiences and enjoy hearing other people’s responses.  That is also why (in the past) I took things personally perhaps that were meant to be informative even helpful.

And, let’s face it.  There's one thing we can all agree on.  We’re all are horny and in need of entertainment.  That is one thing very unlikely to change as long as TER continues bringing us like mind folks together.

“I think that there's more anger and bitterness on the TER discussion boards because this subculture attracts a disproportionate number of angry and dysfunctional people. “

If you spend a little time cruising some of the “Singles” sites, which also have forums, I think you’ll find even more Cyber-Wars going on. Even some of the non-singles sites have this issue.

My own personal view is based in the fact that nearly all the members have one or more IDs (alias) in “Cyberland”. Much courage is derived by being able to speak your mind or attack someone behind the safety of your keyboard.

So the hobby doesn’t have a monopoly on “flaming”.

There are many topics that are tempting to post to, but I stop and try to ask myself if what I might post is of any value. Humorous topics being the exception.  To be drawn into a flaming war is to permit someone else to gain control over you. (MHO)


“I think a significant number of providers have real anger issues towards men. ~ By the same token, I think many hobbyists have anger issues toward women…”

Unless this has some bearing on what transpires during a date, then who really cares. For the most part this is supposed to be 2, possibly more, people who have but one goal. It is not a venue to introduce the problems of another person into your personal life. If that is what you crave you are in the wrong place.

It’s “Fanatasy Island”, not “LOST”!

“EOT”? END OF TOPIC - Just my way of indicating that it’s my last post to this topic.

The problem arrises when you think abuse is a problem within the hobby community vs. a problem with society at large.  Abuse survivors having trust and intimacy issues is very common... I doubt many informed individual would dispute that.

That's a far cry from your original post posturing that abuse creates hatred and hostility on this discussion board, and/or towards the opposite sex.

"will see that I'm pointing out that providers are statistically less likely to have long term intimate relationships than the population at large."

Well, I may agree with this statement, though with no abuse connotations.  There is not a majority of men in the population at large who would be willing to have a long term intimate relationship with a provider.  This profession has unique challenges in and of itself.

Actually, even though you said "some", I believe that many in this business who say they have it together are somewhat mentally confused or scarred. There's nothing wrong with saying that or even questioning it.

I know . . . some people will get bent out of shape and respond to your post with negative feedback and the "stereotypical definitions of the empowerment of women (and that's good too)."  However, your point is truly an objective point and -- in a lot of cases -- is pretty accurate. Now, on the other hand, many hobbyists (which we already know) do this because they're wives are ill, they don't feel they're as young or as good-looking as they used to be, or just don't want relationships -- logical answers.

For providers, some really do like the sex, but let's face it: Most could probably go into any bar and pick out a good-looking guy if that's all they wanted. Many do feel it's a power trip and that's okay. Most do it for the money and the flexibility of hours. I mean, let's be real: Where can you work less than two hours a day and make the same amount of $$$ and choose your hours in another environment? Nowhere, unless you're a brain surgeon or one hell of a consultant, right? So . . . although we all have our reasons for participating in this field, I do believe that some of your observations are on target.

Hugs,
Ciara

-- Modified on 1/20/2008 7:52:54 PM

eh,

This is being posted under an alias im assuming? I'm bored by it. I mean you sound like someone that doesn't hobby IMHO. I'm sure some of this is true, and I've touched on touchy topics myself but it's mostly why does 'this' peson seek a provider (married, can get girls in civvie life, et all) . I don't really care why providers provide. Just like I don't care why someone gives it up to me in civvie life.

Your just one of these dudes that over-intellectualizes something that's basically a primal need.

-M

I agree with your addition to what 1974 said much more than what he said. I don't think hobbyists are all misogynists, and providers all hate men, but out of the people I have met here, some of them even people I have liked quite a lot, I have met many who have serious issues with having real, honest relationships. While there are exceptions, I have to say I agree with what YOU said quite a lot.

(1)  People often go nuts when somebody expresses an idea, who knows why?  Maybe because of few consequences on the 'net - except that they're just as senseless in RL.  I dunno why most people can't seem to figure out what kindergarteners know about stick'n'stones.

(2) I think you're just hypothesizing about provider's anger against men.  Look at it this way:  the overwhelming majority of customers are men; the nature of the biz is sensitive, and so the people who cause trouble are pretty likely to be men.  That's anger against assholes, not against men.  

You want to see real gender anger, go down to family court.  Sheesh.  There's some insane people, and yes, they're usually women.  Ask any divorce lawyer.

(3) Anger against women?  Only if anger gives you a hard-on.  If it does, it's one hell of a lot cheaper to beat the shit out of something.  You can go down to the gym or batting cage much cheaper.

(4)  Not that many people are really insane in any sense.  It's just that the insane ones get 90% of our attention.

What is "Normal" and who defines it? (One mans "crazy" is another mans "sane".
We are ALL dysfunctional is some way...
In many cases you may be right, but we are all diversely different. Are you a shrink and are you writing a book by chance? Just curious, lol. I have nothing against your post, we are all entitled to our opinions and we all operate differently. It is interesting to read, that's for sure!

Personally, I do not think sex is a weapon or form of reward if someone is "good". I recall in my marriage my hubbys friends would do something to upset wifey and she would cut them off from sex. I find that pretty stupid unless you,the wife, dislikes sex or is already getting plenty elsewhere. I never cut my husband off because it would mean I too, did not get any. There are other ways to deal with things.