I had a recent session that broke the routine.  Have you noticed that there seems to be an order to most sessions?  LKF, DFK, BJ, CG - then whatever.

I am out of the norm I guess because BJ (even BBBJ) is not that high I my list.  Well on my last outing after a nice massage I experience something different.  We did LFK & DFK but skipped the BJ (without me even asking) and she climbed on top of me (similar to CG position) but just rubbed (grinded) on me privates to privates with no insertion.  Now, we are talking totally naked with no cover.  This reminded me a little bit of dry humping (but with clothes on) from my teenage days.  Needless to say the totally naked version was very very hot, even though there was no intercourse at this point.

Guys, have you ever experienced this before (ladies have you ever done this before).  Is there a name for this activity?  It was my first time but not my last.

Not sure if it has a name or not, but I've done it with several providers and I love it. It's one of the hottest things I've ever had.

mmmm hmmmm I love that... I have no clue if there is a name for it, but it is one of the most erotic things. I have done it obviously and it feels out of this world. I guess it would be  "SSG"- "slippery, sensual, grinding" lol

Damn.... Made me moist just thinking about it.

Yeah, been there done that many times...sometimes at my suggestion, sometimes the lady has come up with it. Both with the lady on top and the reverse. Usually easy to get into it when I am surfacing fm DATY, slide up the lady's body to let her taste her juice and the privates line up just right for grinding.   One of my old favs, Houston, called it 'simulated safe sex'.  The torture comes when you realize you are right there, knocking at the door and how good it would feel slippin' in without the hat but you KNOW that ain't gonna happen, no way no how.

So let me get this straight. You're talking uncovered penis rubbing against uncovered vagina? But since it's not going in, you think it's safe?

Of course, many parts of the hobby have inherent risks from legal ramifications to the health considerations associated with higher risk sex partners.  Whether it be from kissing, BBBJ, or DATY there are no doubt risks of STDs.  I am sure the activity mentioned in this post also has some risk but I believe it to be much lower than unprotected sex.

True. To each his or her own. I don't really see why you wouldn't just go ahead and stick it on it (or let it be stuck in) if you've got all those genitalia juices mixing already, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

You know, at that point you've just asked to share herpes, genital warts, syphllis, ghonnerea...  The mucous membranes and her juices and your pre-cum are what they are, regardless of penetration. so why not just slip it in, eh?  You've already jumped your risk factors so high it makes very little difference.

You men make your own decisions and I'm ok with that, but I *really* worry about a professional who is willing to partake in such activities and  how many others she may be impacting.

First, regarding breaking the routine = if you want something off the beaten path, be assertive and tell her what you want to do or want her to do. I don't want to say that the progression you just described - LFK to DFK to BJ to CG is routinized, but those activities certainly do flow nicely one after the other, and without any hints from you about what you want/don't want, its kind of inevitable that she's going to work her way through activities that she knows 99.9% of the male population likes.

Second, regarding private to private grinding with no protection. Go get yourself an STD test. Any and all risks associated with sex - including pregnancy - are on the table even though no penetration ocurred. If she rubber herself on you with no protection, its a sure bet she's done the same for other men, and your chances of contracting an STD are the same as they would be if you had BBFS. As good as it feels, and I know it does feel good - it is a risky behavior that should be avoided, or done only with protection. Sorry to be the party pooper

No, it is NOT less dangerous. The risk is the same. One other poster called it SSG, for SLIPPERY. STD's such as gonohorrhea, chlamydia, syphillis, and HIV are transmitted by the exchange of body fluids. What do you think is making all that grinding feel so good? Body fluids - hers AND yours. And when those body fluids have a chance to come in contact with one anotehr, you are at risk for contracting any of the above named body fluids. As an added bonus, your precum does contain sperm, so pregnancy is also a risk.

Damn! Does it feel good!

'Camel slide' or 'cameltoe slide'.

For me, 'breaking the routine' is doing a Waltz instead of a Foxtrot as the date winds down. It's a real treat to do an actual dance or two with a special lady.  (And no worries about catching something!)

I have experienced it,with at least three providers it does feel very good. Is it safe?  The three providers were ones I've seen multiple times and we have a level of trust- doesn't make it safe, but they play safe in every other regard and are very careful to stay on the shaft and well away from the tip.  Still doesn't make it safe.  But for better or worse, I think it is much more common than admitted.  Worthy of discussion.  I made a post a couple weeks ago asking about it directly and no one would touch the post- which lets me know that it is done!

It does make me nervous, as herpes and genital warts are transmissable this way.

As one of the posters says, we all decide our risk tolerance.

I find it interesting to see the posts on TER (especially from many that think they know the 411 but have little no research on their own).  Of course, I do believe safe sex.  However, if BBBJ, DATY, or kissing caused a serious health risk there would be few TER members remaining.

Also SITF, are you aware of the transmission rate of HIV from female to male (full intercourse - unprotected outside of IV drug users / UP anal sex)?  It would be worth knowing.  Of course, I understand the politically correct crowd will go wild about now.  However, if it facts you are interested in the data is available.

Every time people want to justify risky behavior with "low risk" they revert to stats on HIV which is transmitted via blood.

Unfortunately, many gentlemen would have a very difficult time explaining to their SO how they picked up any of the other nasties that are transmitted through skin, mucous and fluid contact.  Genital to genital is significantly higher risk than mouth to genital or mouth to mouth.  You might want to do a bit of research and check with your doctor on that one before insulting the intelligence of those who already have.

As you say, the data is available.
.02

It is still really awesome and feels just alomost as good when cover is used (I know it may sound off the wall) but good ol' saran wrap (a long strip of it) works just fine if it is held under her (with him on top) with her weight and the upper part with her hands, or if she is on top then it has to cover HIM in a similar fashion. It is a slow moving act so it does not come loose (unless you wiggle a lot). I find it to be very different and very erotic. There is also a gel (lube) called Carageenan. It is algae based, odorless, colorless and tasteless and is currently being researched for it's ability to kill disease and it kills the cells that cause cervical cancer. It does not cure it, but it could PREVENT IT. I am attaching a link to more info. If it gets accepted by the FDA it could change so much!! Anyway, BE SAFE and try the plastic wrap slip & slide. It is a blast.

-- Modified on 1/18/2008 4:54:45 PM

If I can find a willing victim, I'd love to try the saran wrap slide... it would be much more secure than trying to rely on a traditional condom or dam, and it does sound like fun.
: D

How do you explain the differences?  Many (if not most) of the highest rated performance providers perform DFK, DATY, and BBBJ.  I see from your reviews you provide on CBJ but interestingly enough you do allow uncovered DATY and DFK.

Your actions do not appear consistent.  Are some activities safer or of a more acceptable level of risk (to you).  Or, more likely are your actions arbitrary or perhaps personal preferences.  

Is every other provider or hobbyist wrong about performing / allowing BBBJ and you are the sole authority on safe oral sex?  Unlikely.  We have all made decisions that we feel are best for us.

There are risks involved in the hobby.  They may be particially mitigated, but to believe they are alleviated altogher is irresponsible.  To speak as the safe sex authority while partaking in risky behavior yourself seems hypocritical.  

If it wasn't pretty much agreed upon all around that the exchange of genital fluids provides a larger risk than the exchange of saliva (with saliva or genital fluids) then would any of us (well, particularly the gents) be wearing condoms?

I've never done this with a provider. I wouldn't probably push them off if they did it, or discourage it, would depend on how far gone I was mentally at that point I agree it is unsafe though.

-M

It is well documented that herpes, syphilis, chlamydia, and gonorrhea may all be transferred via oral sex.  Does oral sex really present lower risk?  Perhaps, but it certainly is not without any risk.  

Who said it was without risk? However, if it were believed to be just as risky as unprotected PIV sex, then we'd either all be going without condoms- or without sex.

except I LOVE to kiss first. After that whatever we are in the mood for and what either I start with or him.

No particular order even when ejaculating. Each person is different and each session is.

Most times I do a LOT of oral because I love to do it.

If just depends...Shane

And, no one has said this.

Only way to stay completely safe is to abstain. This is not news. But, unprotected oral presents significantly lower risk than unprotected genital to genital contact. You don’t have to believe me,  or anyone else here---In fact I highly encourage you to talk to your doctor and get the facts for yourself.

Risk is always present, but it is important to educate yourself on the levels of risk so you can make educated decisions as to how much risk you’re willing to assume (and, expose others to as well)

The behavior you're describing is nearly indistinguishable from intercourse with no condom. You’ve pretty much covered all the bases as far as risky contact and exchange of fluids excluding blood (although no guarantee there either). And, I certainly hope you agree that BBFS is a bad idea.

"Also SITF, are you aware of the transmission rate of HIV from female to male (full intercourse - unprotected outside of IV drug users / UP anal sex)?  It would be worth knowing."

For unprotected vaginal sex with an HIV partner, epidemiological studies estimate the risk is less than 1/500 provided that there are no genital sores on either partner or the disease is not in its very early more highly infectious stage. Compare to other STDs it much harder to get infected with HIV.

I can only speak for myself, not for "Many (if not most) of the highest rated performance providers."  However, I would like to make note that to GET those high ratings on this site providers MUST offer some of those items you list - DFK, DATY, and BBBJ.  Are they better providers, or are the more safety conscious being penalized numerically?

"I see from your reviews you provide on CBJ but interestingly enough you do allow uncovered DATY and DFK... Your actions do not appear consistent.  Are some activities safer or of a more acceptable level of risk (to you).  Or, more likely are your actions arbitrary or perhaps personal preferences."

Well, first let me say, those fantasy reviews can be quite entertaining, eh?  Not consistent?  Yes, some activities are safer or of a more acceptable level of risk - TO ME, based on my conversations with doctors and a great deal of research.  They are also a matter of personal preference.  I see no hypocracy in there, and there is nothing arbitrary about my decisions.  Well, I do love to eat pussy and that's a bit hard to reconcile with my risk mitigation.  Then again, I don't get to play with near as many ladies as men... so I suppose there is a balance at play there.

"Is every other provider or hobbyist wrong about performing / allowing BBBJ and you are the sole authority on safe oral sex?"

I didn't say a thing about BBBJ in my post, YOU brought that activity into this conversation.  We were talking genital-genital contact.

However, I've always felt oral is a decision for each individual to make.  As it is the receptive partner at highest risk (i.e., ME) it is a practice I do not do.  As having my pussy eaten is an acceptable risk to me (transmission from oral to genital is lower than genital to oral) I allow my friends to make that decision for themselves.  

I DO speak out against genital to genital contact as it is a very high risk activity to transmit STD's.  I find that a completely unprofessional and unacceptable practice in this industry.  But hey, that is after all just my opinion...

Did you miss the other post below where I said you men can do as you like, I have issues with the PROFESSIONALS who would allow this practice. which can create health problems in a ripple through the community?  I know of at least one confessed and several rumored herpes+ providers in Seattle alone, as well as others who have had genital warts removed.  Wanna' rub your meat on those hot juicy snatches?  Bring home some cervical cancer to your wife?  Lesions on your dick?  You wanna pay hundreds of dollars for that?!  Ummmm... feels soooooo good!  Go right ahead.    

"There are risks involved in the hobby.  They may be particially mitigated, but to believe they are alleviated altogher is irresponsible."
No shit, Sherlock.  Hey!  You managed to find a point we can agree on!

"To speak as the safe sex authority while partaking in risky behavior yourself seems hypocritical."
Hm.  Who was speaking as an authority?

-- Modified on 1/19/2008 1:08:33 AM

The mixing “of all those genitalia juices” in itself will not result in an STD infection. STDs like Gonorrhea is transmitted very efficiently with both oral and vaginal sex. If you have unprotected oral sex your risk of become infected with Gonorrhea can be as high as 50%. Pharyngeal gonorrhea is generally asymptomatic and under diagnose.  The infection risk is dependent on the pathogen exposure load and the duration of contact, the amount of mucosal surface area (moist mucosa is more prone to infection than skin) that comes in contact with infected genitalia juices.  Since these factors are probably much less with the activity described transcend2007 than that in doing a BBBJ, DATY, DATO,  I suspect risk is no more higher than theses activities.  Since condoms are only 90% effective I also would not be surprise if it was as safe as provider doing a CBJ

“Did you miss the other post below where I said you men can do as you like, I have issues with the PROFESSIONALS who would allow this practice. which can create health problems in a ripple through the community?  I know of at least one confessed and several rumored herpes+ providers in Seattle alone, as well as others who have had genital warts removed.  Wanna' rub your meat on those hot juicy snatches?  Bring home some cervical cancer to your wife?  Lesions on your dick?  You wanna pay hundreds of dollars for that?!  Ummmm... feels soooooo good!  Go right ahead.  “

 
I bet that at least 25% of the Professionals are infected with HSV-2.   The risk of HSV-2 infection is small in the absence of active lesion and virus shedding.  Restricting the sexual activity described by transend2007 to the vast majority of time when there is no lesion and virus shedding should be relatively safe compared to other activities. The vast majorities of people who know that they have genital herpes either abstain from sex or always use condoms only when they have symptoms.”

HPV is passed on through genital contact, most often during vaginal and anal sex. Condoms are 50 to 60% effective against HPV.  Considering the vast majority of sex acts are vaginal in this hobby is CFS, a Professional is more likely get HPV infection by that route than that from the sex act described by transcend2007.  Most of the time, HPV causes no symptoms or health problems and goes away by itself and most people never know you had HPV. HPV rarely results in cervical cancer and can be largely prevent by having yearly Pap test. New vaccines against HPV strains that cause cancer will essential eliminate this aspect of HPV infection in the future.

I'm starting to see a pattern here. You bring a topic to the board, someone tells why that there is a problem with what you want to do, and you become defensive and argumentative. Maybe you should give us ladies a little more credit. We do know what we are talking about sometimes because it is our business to know.

Uncovered private to private carries the same level of risk as BBFS. It really is as simple as that. Yes, BBBJ is risky, but members of the medical community, who I believe, have said that uncovered oral does not carry the same level of risk as uncovered intercourse.

For my part, its a matter of choosing my level of risk. I can't stand the taste and feel of latex in my mouth, so I choose a slightly higher level of risk than if I covered everything. On the other hand, if for any reason whatsoever, I have a concern, I don't hesitate to use a cover for oral.

Risky, yes, but still a very long way from uncovered FS.

You know, it’s not that.  The reason I post topics here is that I am generally interested in sharing my experiences and learning from the TER community.

What drives me nuts is being told everything I do is wrong (which reminds me of married life - lol).  It would be nice to have information conveyed in a way that was not so condescending (like Sola's diatribe about it wont be so funny when you bring an STD home or others stating as fact that rubbing genitals carries the same risk as unprotected intercourse).

I would add that I did not request the privates to privates activity.  I only commented it was a very exotic enjoyable experience.  As for the comments from more than one provider that it carries the same risk as BBFS that is extremely unlikely (although admittedly I will be researching this further).  Just consider locally the amount of secretion one would exchanged during intercourse or non intercourse. Simple math would dictate the risk levels would not be the same as the exchanged bodily fluids level would clearly be far less (over 90% less) from non-intercourse related activity.  With that being said obviously there are higher risk factors from genital to genital contact to be considered.

“The reason I post topics here is that I am generally interested in sharing my experiences and learning from the TER community”

For someone interested in learning from the TER community, you sure seem to have a hard time HEARING what people tell you.

”What drives me nuts is being told everything I do is wrong (which reminds me of married life - lol)”

Perhaps this is part of the problem? Your wife is not here. Providers are telling you that this behavior is VERY risky.  This is their BUSINESS. If they have any sense at all (and I believe they do) they have thoroughly educated themselves on the risks of STD transmission.

“It would be nice to have information conveyed in a way that was not so condescending (like Sola's diatribe about it wont be so funny when you bring an STD home or others stating as fact that rubbing genitals carries the same risk as unprotected intercourse)”

Condescending? You dismiss the more reasoned responses---and then believe you’re being condescended to when the dialog escalates?  If you were really interested in listening to what anyone had to say you would have responded more along the lines of “gee…I never realized this carried the same risk as BBFS” Instead, you chose to tell others they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about---while at the same time admitting that YOU don’t actually know the FACTS.


”I would add that I did not request the privates to privates activity. I only commented it was a very exotic enjoyable experience”

Irrelevant. Being unaware of the risk does not negate the risk. And you clearly stated you were are totally up for doing it again.

“As for the comments from more than one provider that it carries the same risk as BBFS that is extremely unlikely (although admittedly I will be researching this further).  Just consider locally the amount of secretion one would exchanged during intercourse or non intercourse. Simple math would dictate the risk levels would not be the same as the exchanged bodily fluids level would clearly be far less (over 90% less) from non-intercourse related activity.  With that being said obviously there are higher risk factors from genital to genital contact to be considered”


Dude, this is not simple math. This is biology.  This is your life not your stock portfolio. You are using the very same (sadly uninformed) logic as that used by teenagers who believe they cannot get pregnant doing this because there is no penetration. OOPS! Contact is contact. Just because you didn’t insert your penis in her vagina doesn’t change squat. You both exchanged fluids via direct genital contact. You might as well have followed through and done the deed. You’re playing Russian roulette, and that is your option. But you don’t seem to realize there are real bullets in the gun

Get it?

While I am in agreement with your arguments about the risk you did inflame the situation by suggesting her remarks to be hypocritical.  I believe she is wrong on the facts of matter but really believes and practice what she says on this matter.

These boards are funny.  You really can't judge the tone of a post, eh?

Noone has told you that everything you do is wrong, several have told you that the activity you posted enjoying so much is a very high risk activity, with little difference in risk than BBFS.  Just like the other post you got roasted for, you refuse to listen to the opinions and advice offered and instead choose to attack those responding to your post.

My "diatribe" about it not being funny to bring an STD home  is sheer REALITY.  How do you explain to an SO that she needs to go get a perscription to get rid of the ghonnerea you may have given her?  No, we are not talking life and death with many of these "mostly harmless" little bugs.  That said, when she gets a good lawyer, they may make you think it is near as serious...

A professional should be doing what she can to prevent that from ever happening.  Whether or not you request a particular service, YOU should be taking the responsibility to mitigate your risk as you are comfortable, making *informed* decisions on the activities you would like to enjoy.

"Simple math would dictate the risk levels would not be the same as the exchanged bodily fluids level would clearly be far less (over 90% less) from non-intercourse related activity."

The only major exposure difference from the activity you describe and BBFS is the ejaculate.  Many STD's are not transmitted via semen, and even so, the lady is exposed to your pre-cum.  PLEASE take my advice seriously to discuss this with your doctor.  Your comment above makes it very obvious that you have not.

-- Modified on 1/19/2008 1:37:45 PM

-- Modified on 1/19/2008 2:02:58 PM

“As an added bonus, your precum does contain sperm, so pregnancy is also a risk.”

Although it takes only a single sperm to fertilize an egg, the odds of a single sperm reaching the egg are very low. A normal male ejaculates contain > 100 million sperms and even than it not 100% sure that any will reach and fertilize an egg. The probability of getting infected from the relative small amount pre cum and sperm that may be in the pre cum, that may come in contact with your vulva is very small.  I suspect the pregnancy risk is no higher than risk of CFS caused by condom failure and slippage.

From that chart Sola it seems women performing unprotected oral on a man are way more at risk than the other way around. Interesting food for thought.

I'm a little confused. The post by SolaLove® (1/19/2008 2:01:19 PM) offered a link to the San Francisco City Clinic which listed relative risks of various sexual activities. Of the specific activity under discussion, it says:

"Kissing, mutual masturbation, and frottage or dry humping are considered safer sex activities, with little to no risk of STD transmission." (Bottom of page)

Isn't this information from a physician-run sex clinic? Isn't it trustworthy?

Kissing, mutual masturbation (handjobs and/or I-do-me while you-do-you) and frottage or DRY humping.  Key word DRY.  Frottage is often used to refer to humping while clothed, you know, those sexy modern dances?
; )

Yes the info is a physician run clinic.  All of those activities are safer sex with little risk of STD transmission.

That is a vast difference from sliding genitals (precum and a ladies natural juices!) against one another.

HP - it is interesting that you have made 12 total posts on TER.  3 of them made in defense of Sola (several other leturing hobbiests for one thing or another).  That's 25% (math done for your benefit as you totally missed the point of my post that you originally responded to).  That does not seem credible.  Are you her mother or big sister?  She appeared to be making points very well on her own (even if she was factual over generalizing or incorrect).

There is no discussion of genital rubbing or non intercourse genital to genital contact information listed on that chart.  In fact, the closest description would be dry humping which was listed in the safer sex range.

Would you mind referencing where found documentation that non penetration genital contact provides the same risk level of STD transmission as penis / vaginal penetration and intercourse.  That has been your contention this entire post.  I do not believe that is correct.  Since you appear eager to present charts, please provide one that's on topic.

The only relevant data was that there are different risks with different activities, and oral sex on/for a woman has the least known disease transfer associated with it.

My suggestion was for you to take it to your doctor and ASK about the items not on that list, not to pump me for info.  I'm not your research assistant.

Take some responsibility for your health, eh?

Edit to ad:
This is my last post to you, regardless of how ignorant you may show yourself to be again in the future.  You don't present coherent arguments, don't address subjects at hand, attack those who disagree with you... you are simply beyond reason.  Well, I tried.  You win!
: )

-- Modified on 1/19/2008 10:41:08 PM

I actually like the idea of my mother being on these boards supporting me... unfortunately, ain't never going to happen, and I don't have a sister.

Really now.  How dare anyone know me and join in my conversations with similar view points... it shows a complete lack of credibility, especially as they run counter to your own.  Um hm.

Transcend, it is so very flattering that you have taken the time to compile some statistics on my 12 posts on TER, (do you have a PIE chart? I LOVE pie charts). But really?  I fail to see what that has to do with the extraordinarily risky sexual behavior you presented as the opening to this thread.

If you want to pretend that what you’ve been told in response to that is not true, then carry on. BUT, I sincerely hope you make a note in your reviews that warn others about your activities so they can make informed decisions for themselves.


Oh, OH. And to your insinuation about Sola? Yep.  You caught me. I am unable to formulate an opinion of my own. But the way she steers me to her way of thinking is soooo HOT……I’m OK with that.

Sola, I find it interesting when presented the opportunity to document your point of view instead of  educating the TER community you start (or should I say continue) with the name calling.

The reason is simple.  You can not document it.  

Have you considered you are the on who is unreasonable?

The reason HP's post was not credible was that no additional information of value was contributed.  She simply parroted your comments.  

And, I made the point that she had only posted 12 total times on TER 3 times in defense of you on different threads.  I was alluding to the fact that her interest was more about defending you than contributing to the topic.  That's why she was not credible.

Common sense tells me that genital-to-genital contact is more dangerous than other activities. Why? Because you're exchanging genital fluids- which is the exact reason you (hopefully) wear condoms. Those fluids come in contact with the thin, delicate genital tissues. No, it might not be as much as you would with penetration, but those fluids are definitely still there, and viruses sure are small.

"Warts are not commonly found in the mouth, so some experts believe that transmission through oral sex is not as likely as with genital-to-genital or genital-to-anal contact."
http://www.ashastd.org/learn/learn_hpv_warts.cfm

"STIs can be transmitted in two ways: first, HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, hepatitis B, and other fluid borne STIs can be passed on from one person to another when an infected bodily fluid — blood, semen, pre-cum, cervical/vaginal secretions — comes into contact with an uninfected person's mucous membranes — the lining of the vagina, rectum, urethra, mouth, or throat."
http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0230.html

"HSV-2 [herpes] has been the most common cause of genital herpes, causing sores and blisters on or near the genitals and surrounding areas. It is almost always transmitted through genital-to-genital contact."
http://www.herpeshealth.com/about_Genital_Herpes.html

"HPV is transmitted sexually through intimate genital to genital contact, including vaginal or anal intercourse or only rarely through oral sex."
http://www.indiana.edu/~health/hw/hpv.shtml

"It is important to note that passing STDs does not require penetration of the mouth, vagina, or anus by the penis or tongue. Simple genital to genital skin rubbing is sometimes enough to allow viruses or bacteria to be passed."
http://www.dphhs.mt.gov/PHSD/STD-HIV/std-hiv-faq.shtml

The question raised was genital rubbing (non intercourse) as risky as penis / vaginal penetration.  Sola's main point was that non penetration genital contact was as risky as penetration (BBFS).  You can post 50 non related links while none of them address issue in question.

However, risks aside.  The topic of this post was to know if anyone had experience it or if there was a name for it (whether using protection or not).

Or does being obtuse come naturally to you? Just asking...

Herpes is contracted through skin on skin contact-no bodily fluids required. Depending on whom you reference, a sizeable chunk of the populace has it-- maybe 20-25% of the population. Genital to genital rubbing(non intercourse) equals skin on skin contact. Even with a condom, you face a very real exposure problem to this virus because herpes shedding often occurs outside of the covered area, as in the pubic region, thighs, etc. While certainly not deadly, it is painful, unsightly, contagious and not the gift your significant other would be too thrilled about.

One in 4, maybe 5 people have the herp.

If common sense doesn't impress you, then maybe talking to a doctor will as herpes is very common out there. You are howling at the moon here. One things pretty clear though, you do like to hear yourself howl.

I know that personal insults (like calling people stupid) no doubt make you feel better about yourself (which is always the case for people who have no self esteem).  However, why don't you attempt to directly add value to this conversation by answering the question (of course I already know why, because you can’t)?

Is the risk the same for BBFS and non genital contact (without penetration)?  Because you have no documentation in your post that directly relates to the issue.

Not to mention the risk you describe would also be the same for any oral unprotected sex and as you stated even a condom would not provide complete protection (more than likely) from herpes.  If you read the entire thread you would have seen I called Sola a hypocrite for exactly this reason.  So, thank you for agreeing with my point (without even knowing it).

Interesting comments BC.  To be consistent I would like to know where you got this information or how you would know this.  

The community has heard a very small number of providers stating the opposite opinion.  It would be nice to provide the community with real information (documentation / facts) and not scare tactics one way or the other.

"I bet that at least 25% of the Professionals are infected with HSV-2.   The risk of HSV-2 infection is small in the absence of active lesion and virus shedding."
Yes the problem is, if the lesions are active internally or the viurs is asymptomatically shedding, you canNOT know when it is "safer".  So assuming that 25% positive... why not just cover it up?

"HPV is passed on through genital contact, most often during vaginal and anal sex. Condoms are 50 to 60% effective against HPV.  Considering the vast majority of sex acts are vaginal in this hobby is CFS, a Professional is more likely get HPV infection by that route than that from the sex act described by transcend2007."
I'd love an explanation of how HPV would be more common with intercourse than rubbing up against skin?  And I'd love to hear your theories on the transmission of syphllis, chlamydia and ghonnerea (sp?)....

"Most of the time, HPV causes no symptoms or health problems and goes away by itself and most people never know you had HPV."
I know at least a dozen ladies who have had pre-cancerous cells removed.  That's a high number for a disease that mostly goes away by itself.  Before anyone thinks that's no big deal, there was six weeks of abstaining from sexual activity in the healing process.  HPV seems to be much more benign in men than in women.

"HPV rarely results in cervical cancer and can be largely prevent by having yearly Pap test."
The problem here is that a man can carry it completely asymtomatically and give it to all of his other partners.  There is no yearly pap he can do to look for this.

"New vaccines against HPV strains that cause cancer will essential eliminate this aspect of HPV infection in the future."
That's MARVELOUS for future generations!  Unfortunately it came a bit too late for many of the people in our community.

xoxo,
S.

This is one of the only people I would accept this type of information from.  I appreciate the details in his post, and trust his resources... not that that will change the activities I decline to perform or the risks I've decided are not acceptable, however.
.02



-- Modified on 1/21/2008 5:23:32 PM

I was going to PM you my thoughts though felt this discussion is quite relevant for anyone who may wander back to this thread.

While I am happy to concede your superior medical background, I feel you are making a few potentially dangerous assumptions in your analysis.

"“ The vast majorities of people who know that they have genital herpes either abstain from sex or always use condoms only when they have symptoms.”

Unfortunately for risk analysis, one must also take into consideration the high number of individuals who are asymptomatic shedding, and those who do not KNOW that they are carriers.  While I never profess to diagnose, I've had to direct several gentlemen to their doctors who have shown up to see me with strange bumps and lesions in their genital region.  (An aside and different subject - there was one gentleman who had what appeared to be a textbook ringworm on his leg.  It had been there for quite some time and he was convinced it was simply abrasion from his socks...)  

"“Condoms are 50 to 60% effective against HPV.  Considering the vast majority of sex acts are vaginal in this hobby is CFS, a Professional is more likely get HPV infection by that route than that from the sex act described by transcend2007.”
I'm not sure how you justify this particular assumption, unless it's an overall "in her career a professional is more likely..." vs. per incidence contact with an infected client comparison.  

One other subject on transmission not touched on in this conversation would be factors that can increase risk such as whether a lady shaves  shortly before a session, which can compromise those delicate tissues. (Similar to the advice to NOT brush and floss immediately before a session.)

It's a good conversation to have on these boards...

"Interesting comments BC.  To be consistent I would like to know where you got this information or how you would know this. "

Reply: It a fundamental concept of toxicological risk assessment and should be common sense.  The risk increase with increase exposure to toxic agents.  Factors that can affect exposure:

Surface area exposed ( the more surface area exposed the more likely it would find a break to internalized the pathogen)

Pathogen load , HIV is a good example where the probability of transmission is related to viral load in the fluid See this report as one example (http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/transmission.html)

Duration the pathogen is in contact with sensitive tissue. Pathogens left in contact with most sensitive tissue will multiple and increase exposure. That one some recommend you urinate immediately after having sex to flush out the pathogens to reduce your risk.


"The community has heard a very small number of providers stating the opposite opinion.  It would be nice to provide the community with real information (documentation / facts) and not scare tactics one way or the other."

Reply: Much of this is common sense if you think about it.

Interesting On the “newbie board” I was just accused as someone obsessed with creating fear and doubt!!! On this board topic I am one consider opposed to scared tactic by a small number of Providers.  All I am interest is presenting what I see as the truth. Although I may be knowledgeably than most, I also known I am not infallible.  

"“ The vast majorities of people who know that they have genital herpes either abstain from sex or always use condoms only when they have symptoms.”

Unfortunately for risk analysis, one must also take into consideration the high number of individuals who are asymptomatic shedding, and those who do not KNOW that they are carriers.  

My Reply: We have all different risk tolerance for different events and activities. The risk of herpes transmission is so much smaller from asymptomatic herpes viral shedding that it is acceptable risk for me.  I am actually becoming more concern about MRSA infection after getting that infection on my face shortly after DATY in which I shaved just before an appointment Your risk tolerance is lower and I understand that and respect it . I also understand a preached that the ladies risk for the same event is much higher in part because they take that risk much more often than a hobbyist in this hobby.   However you arguments largely center on the hobbyist risk and consequences of the activity and not the risk to the Provider which would have made more sense.  SEE your post (You know, it's not all about HIV and Hypocritical ? No, you assume too much.)

"“Condoms are 50 to 60% effective against HPV.  Considering the vast majority of sex acts are vaginal in this hobby is CFS, a Professional is more likely get HPV infection by that route than that from the sex act described by transcend2007.”
I'm not sure how you justify this particular assumption, unless it's an overall "in her career a professional is more likely..." vs. per incidence contact with an infected client comparison.

My reply:  Yes it was overall in her career analysis  and not on a per incidence.

One other subject on transmission not touched on in this conversation would be factors that can increase risk such as whether a lady shaves  shortly before a session, which can compromise those delicate tissues. (Similar to the advice to NOT brush and floss immediately before a session.)

My Reply: Yes I overlooked that because I don’t shave down there before an appointment.  But you can see by my comment about my facial MRSA infection I now appreciate that fact.  

It's a good conversation to have on these boards...

My reply:Of course!

"I bet that at least 25% of the Professionals are infected with HSV-2.   The risk of HSV-2 infection is small in the absence of active lesion and virus shedding."
Yes the problem is, if the lesions are active internally or the viurs is asymptomatically shedding, you canNOT know when it is "safer".  So assuming that 25% positive... why not just cover it up?”


My point is that transcend2007 activity is not in anyway a high risk activity like BBFS as it being portrayed by AWomanLikeNoOther , SinsOfTheFlesh , and  You.  With respect to covering up why not also say “just cover it up for” BJ. It has the same rationale.  

"HPV is passed on through genital contact, most often during vaginal and anal sex. Condoms are 50 to 60% effective against HPV.  Considering the vast majority of sex acts are vaginal in this hobby is CFS, a Professional is more likely get HPV infection by that route than that from the sex act described by transcend2007."
I'd love an explanation of how HPV would be more common with intercourse than rubbing up against skin?  And I'd love to hear your theories on the transmission of syphllis, chlamydia and ghonnerea (sp?)....”

Condoms only reduce the risk by about 50% because they only covers 50% of areas that may be asymptomatically shedding virus. That why the larger female condom is more effective in preventing HSV-2 and HPV infections. In contrast, in the absence of a condom and refraining from intercourse during outbreaks reduces the risk of HSV-2 by 80 to 90%. This an indication how small the risk is in the absence of active lesions. Moreover because condom are only 50 % effective if lady does just 3 times the number CFS than the sex act described by transcend2007 she will have a greater  risk of getting an HPV and HSV-2 infection as a result of the 3 CFS. I suspect the number CFS done in this hobby is far far more than 3 times transcend 2007 act.

If  their is no penetration of semen or precum I suspect the risk of transmission of syphilis, chlamydia and gonorrhea to be similar to that of COB. The pre cum sperm count and pathogen load is insignificant to that present in the semen of infected individual. This combined with small amount of pre cum that may penetrate makes the risk of pregnancy and STD infection resulting from transcend2007  act much smaller than that of BBFS.


“I know at least a dozen ladies who have had pre-cancerous cells removed.  That's a high number for a disease that mostly goes away by itself.  Before anyone thinks that's no big deal, there was six weeks of abstaining from sexual activity in the healing process.  HPV seems to be much more benign in men than in women.”

Not that high when you consider 6 million of us get a HPV infection each year. I almost guarantee you that you had an undetectable HPV. The ladies in this hobby are in a very high risk group by having done numerous CFS which at best are 50% protection from HPV, multiple sexual partners, sexual partners who have multiple partners or who participate in high-risk sexual activities.  The activities described by transcend2007 will not have detectable effect on the overall number of ladies who developed pre-cancerous lesions and therefore needing a 6 week healing period.  The reason is the risk of these other factors far outweighs any small perceived incremental risk cause by the act described by transcend2007.

"HPV rarely results in cervical cancer and can be largely prevent by having yearly Pap test."
The problem here is that a man can carry it completely asymtomatically and give it to all of his other partners.  There is no yearly pap he can do to look for this.”

The Pap test is a screening test for pre-cancerous cells and not for screening for HPV in males or females. Pap test combined with regular treatment if necessary is very effective in preventing pre-cancer cell progression to cervical cancers.  Most women who develop cervical cancer have not had regular cervical cancer screening.  So any Provider who does not get annual Pap smear is doing so at her own risk.

Let be nice and stay away from the sarcasms That is the best way and I will respect you for that,Yes!


-- Modified on 1/23/2008 5:49:36 PM