In Inga Muscio's Cunt she says, "Until there is an established, respectable place for whores in this society, no woman will have an established, respected foundation of power."

what are your thoughts on this?

Well, uh, er, hmmm, I'm not really sure. I'm sorry, that's too deep for me. I pass !!

I may be way off here, but it seems to me if prostitution were de-criminalized (legal and unregulated), women would lose power in many ways. Look at your average marriage; usually it's the guy who wants more, and the gal won't give it. If prostiutution was commonly accepted by society, the balance of power in your average marriage would be a bit more equal. Remember.....whoever controls the sex controls the relationship. The price of sex would drop dramatically as well. Both providers and civies. Who would spend $200 on a civie, with no gaurantee of anything when he could give $50 to a provider for a sure thing? I'm sure others will have more insight than I, and it'll certainly be interesting to see how this plays out!

I think that prostitution should be legal. I think that women who do it well should be honored. I don't believe that any government should tell a woman what to do with her body, or tell two consenting adults what to do with theirs.

However, Ms Muscio's statement says to me at face value that a woman's power stems from her ability to sell her body, or at least that her sexuality is the basis for her power. That's just foolish. She throws words like 'whore' and 'cunt' around for shock value to obscure the fact that she is a bitter lesbian militant feminist. I don't believe that people like her help the movement at all.

Course, that's just my opinion

"However, Ms Muscio's statement says to me at face value that a woman's power stems from her ability to sell her body, or at least that her sexuality is the basis for her power."


that is interesting, i was thinking more that she was coming from the point of view that promiscuous men (male whores) still have a established foundation of power and society for the most part does not look down on them for their whorish ways, where as women are. So we will know that women are really powerful and equal to men when despite being whores they retain a established foundation of power

Let's face it... while sex is powerful, it is not the ultimate element of control - money is, and as long as the good old boys control things, neither providers NOR most clients, will have any respected foundation of power.
That being said, shall we all move on and enjoy each others company while the idiots in control think of more ways to FU this world we live in?

and I came to the same conclusion as sgandolfs.

Woman suffrage was supposed to bring women up to 100% parity with men politically, but it obviously didn't.  I agree that legalization of all aspects of sexual commerce will be a plus, but that alone is not enough.  Maybe society will evolve to the point that we no longer need to even ask these questions.  What the cataclysms are that will get us there, I can only guess at.

Until that time, all we can do is to strive to make things fairer, which is not quite the same.

On another topic, I am delighted to see you posting on the boards again Vicki.  Welcome back.  I missed you.

Though I don't like her choice of terms.  Think what you will of Orwell, I think it never works to try to promote an insult like "whore" to a level of respect.  It works far better just to coin a new term.  My own is "tryster."

Women's sexuality and sexuality in general has to be for there to be true regard for anyone's rights.  

Why?  We respect rights in a negative way: the government shall not stop free speech or citizen's petitions, it shall not confiscate arms... etc.  What is missing is that "pursuit of happiness" part, and how does one pursue happiness without taking pleasure?   Without a positive regard, the notion of rights turns cynical. Sex is the most direct and natural way to pleasure that there is.  

While Mr. Fischer and sgandolfs make a good point,  suppressing prostitution largely cripples women from gaining financial power.  The financial disparities would be redressed if prostitution were decriminalized.  Remember it's through legalization of gambling that the Indian Tribes have finally gained money, power and dignity.  

One may not like this proposition and say that equal treatment in the conventional workplace should redress the disparity.  I give two counter-arguments.  The first one is that higher financial power will gain them respect enough to demand higher pay when they go into the conventional workforce. The second it will lower the supply where they be able to take advantage of the demand.  

As Jenna Jameson said, the one who has the power in a relationship is the one who needs the relationship the least.  This is true of financial relationships, too.

Lastly, men's power to limit women to either monogamy or "free" polygamy has a detrimental effect on mature women psychologically.  It also has a bad effect on them as providers for having to hide it or live in fear about it.  

I've observed that women need to feel that they are in control of their sexuality and that their control is completely respected.  If that is taken from them, I think they lose the ability to enjoy most of their rights.  The rest of their rights have little value to them.

Lastly, prostitution should also be decriminalized (with an eye toward eventual legalization) because it is **the right thing to do.**      
 

-- Modified on 12/18/2006 10:56:04 AM

-- Modified on 12/18/2006 11:15:58 AM

What I can't understand is why a successful business person in a successful underground economy would want to invite the government into it's business.

First, your costs would go up a minimum of 33% due to income tax. Secondly, you know that the government would put inspections and practices into place that would need to be funded by the industry. Next it would regulate you to the point of insanity. Finally it would have you working for minimum wage, and remember that is taxed.

Most small business people would pay to be illegal and profitable.

Or, I could be wrong.

You make a couple of false assumptions here (but don't worry, I won't pull out the flogger over them).

First, you assume that legalized prostitution would increase the likelihood that a man will wander off in search of what he's not getting at home, thus putting the relationship on a more equal footing. You assume that fear of legal consequences acts as a deterrent to extramarital dalliance. Studies have shown that this is rarely the case. Most men who decide to stray will stray regardless of the legalities involved. Those who are tempted but never quite work up the nerve to do so are no more likely to do so in the absence of legal consequences. If you look to countries who have decriminalized prostitution, there is no significant increase in cheating.

Secondly, you assume that decriminalizing prostitution would cause prices to drop. That would definitely not happen. The rate a woman decides to charge is based on many factors. Fear of legal consequences being only one of them. Of course, one may assume that decriminalizing prositution would encourage more women to enter this line of work, causing rates to drop due to increased competition, but again, this is not likely. While more women may indeed choose to become escorts, the increase is unlikely to be enough to force prices down. Again, take a look at other countries who have decriminalized prostition. Their rates continue to be on par with rates here.

I'm probably guilty of taking her words too literally but I can't help but react to Inga's quote.  She says:
'...in this society, no woman will have an established, respected foundation of power."

Quite simply she is implying that no woman (none, zippo) has any established and respected foundation of power.  What total nonsense in my opinion.

I will acknowledge the fact that in nearly all cultures, women are not on equal footing with their male counterparts in many various life stations be they education, business, politics, etc.  There is surely a gender divide that is manifested in bias and prejudice not unlike that seen in race, religion and age.  So I will agree that there is work to be done on this front.

However on the other hand, in many Western cultures, especially our own USA, women have sure come a long way baby!  If not anything else, women have collectively demonstrated that it does not matter who traditionally holds power.  Today's woman is an individual who alone will determine the limitation of her own power.  She can and will pursue any education that she so desires.  And it is education that is second to nothing when it comes to earning respect and the establishment of power.   Educated women today are CEO's of major corps, they are among our greatest doctors and scientists, they fight and lead with our troops, they are political leaders (we now have a woman who is 2 heartbeats away from being President of the greatest country in the world), they teach, they invent and they are the only ones to give birth to human life.

The influence of woman in our society is mind boggling and it is nowhere near reaching its greatest height yet.  Yes, there is a big gap in terms of gender equality. But such inequity is not tantamount to the ccomplete absence of respect and power.  Make no mistake our society is full of thousands of women who are respected and who have discernable power.    

Now would a societal tolerance of the buying and selling of sexual services allow some men and some women a greater degree of respect and power?  Perhaps so but in no way is this a necessary condition for women in general.

Interesting topic Vicki...            

                 

Recognition that women have something that men want - and are willing to pay for it - whether it be through marriage and all that goes with that, or on an hourly basis and all that goes with that - is just a part of the human condition.  Right-wing nut jobs - get over your selves... cause what I just said is true... does not matter if you are lib or conservative, Rep or Demo, Bible thumber or athiest... we all like sex.... and sooo many have been caught from Gary Hart - to Jim Bakker!  So Pleeeeease get over yourselves!  sheese!

By what right does anyone not pay taxes?

Do you drive? Taxes pay for roads, police to keep them safe (when not wasting time policing providers.)

Do you eat?  Taxes make sure food is safe (I know , I know, E-Coli, but how much worse would it be?)

I could go on and on but the point is, no matter how you earn your money, pay taxes.  It's only right, and the penalties for getting caught are very draconian compared with what you get when your caught escoring.  (Just ask Richard Hatch.)

You're right about the use of "no woman."  I read that as a cliche impeding the thought behind it.  The thought behind it is that there is still an impediment to women's equality.  She thought it was a matter of a certain rejection of women's sexuality.  

Actually, what you say isn't true.  There is a huge disparity between women and men in the professions.  Moreover, we have an entire class of single mothers.  They and their children make up a disproportionate number of the poor.  

The fact that we have a woman 2 heart-beats away now might speak volumes, except for the fact that men have outnumbered men presidency, vice-presidency and Speaker of the House of probably about 260-1.  

Just to tell you: this society hasn't come really far.  You might say the glass is half full, but I would say the glass is more like a 10th full, and only very recently at that.  

So, what is the impediment, really?  

It isn't just a matter of attitudes.  The disparity between the sexes and the control of women became a part of societies with the advent of agriculture.  The work got heavier, women couldn't contribute in an equal way to securing food.  They lost power and they were changed into property.  

In the ancient world, one redress to this disparity was prostitution-- in the form of Temple Prostitutes.  

One great provider (whose name shall not be mentioned) has referred to herself as a civil servant.  I think if you remove the religion angle, that is what it comes down to.  

There are some differences now.  Most of the work is no longer, heavy, physical work.

So, the impediment?  It must be psychological.  Unlike the hunter-gatherer cultures predating agriculture, this world is dominated by power from money.  As I said in my other post, restrain women from freedom about their sexuality, and you psychologically abridge her rights.  

So, why can't they just earn money like a man?  I'll have to go into that later.  I'm tired.

' will acknowledge the fact that in nearly all cultures, women are not on equal footing with their male counterparts in many various life stations be they education, business, politics, etc.  There is surely a gender divide that is manifested in bias and prejudice not unlike that seen in race, religion and age.  So I will agree that there is work to be done on this front.'


I carefully tried to convey that I recognize that there is not total gender equality. However to take that fact and to indicate that therefore women in totality lack respect and power is quite simply not true.  Many, albeit not enough, have clearly overcome the gender bias and are amazingly successful by any definition.  In doing so these women do indeed have tremendous respect and power.

To suggest that no woman possesses respect and power is a disservice to those who have achieved so much.  Quite frankly I'm rather surprised that our beloved providers have not jumped all over that assertion despite their probable belief that women should have the freedom to use their bodies as they choose.  Two different issues altogether in my opinion...        


-- Modified on 12/19/2006 7:06:34 AM

but only because most people would PREFER to not be doing something ILLEGAL

no one PREFERS to put their freedom on the line for a "succesful business" venture.

There are SERIOUS consequences to this business because it's illegal. Women are constantly being set up by police stings and hauled off to jail and their legal records and lives ruined.

If the consequence of LEGALIZING this business is paying more income tax and government involvment, i would much prefer that consequence over JAIL/PRISON and being made a criminal.

I don't believe we would be making MINIMUM WAGE
in fact i dont necessarily believe our rates would even go down. As with all businesses, there will be the girls you can get for $5/ a hour
and there will also be the girls still charging $500 a hour. Just like you can get a basic used car for $1000 or you can get a nicer used car for $20,000

the competition would be fiercer of course but there would still be girls that will be "high class escorts" and men who will pay for them just because they know NOT everyone can afford that girl.

-- Modified on 12/19/2006 7:49:07 AM