I require 2 references in order to set up an appointment. I figured, Since I require these, I should know who I can and cannot trust for references. Here's where my test comes in.

I emailed the most popular 85 ladies in my city (5 of which were agencies) asking them to please provide a reference for a gent that I listed in the email. To be sure that I was controlling the client info, I used my best man friend's information. His FULL NAME, his phone #,and his email address were only a few things that I included as information in this reference request email. (Keep in mind this buddy friend of mine has NEVER seen an escort in his life)

I sent it to every single one of them.
Set up an excel spreadsheet with their names, email addresses and whether or not they passed or failed my test.

In order to pass, They had to say to me "I don't recall him, he isnt in my records, I havent seen him, I would need more information in order to verify him for sure...

To fail, I had to get a "Yes, I have seen him" message from the provider.

I was sickened at the amount of emails that were returned to me that said
"Yes, I've definitely seen him, Very nice guy- Clean cut"
"Yes, I have seen him before and he seemed nice"
"yes, I have seen him and he bugs me all the time to let him take pictures"
Etc etc.

of the 85, 39 emailed me back. of those 39, 12 failed. These 12 are the most popular ladies that I frequently ask for references from.

I now feel that all this time, I've been asking for references for no reason.
There are only a couple of reasons I can explain why this happens.
1)Of course in those emails, I used my REAL email address- so if some ladies don't like me, I can understand them giving me bad references to sabbatoge me in a sense.
2)they just don't care about anyone but themselves

I'd be curious to know what the results were if some other nice lady from my area ran the same test sent to the same people... If her #'s would be more in her favor, But basically, 30% of providers that responded to my email failed.

What do I do now? If a gent calls and uses one of the girls that FAILED my test as a reference, do I tell him she's falling short in that department? No. I don't want to ruin anyone's reputation, but I also want to be safe. I don't talk badly about ANY other provider, as I would never want that to come back to me...

Do I put up on my website that I do not accept references from the people listed below and name them all? No, I can't do that.

SOMEBODY HELP ME!!!

According to your figures, 46 didn't respond.  Assuming that the reason was that they didn't recognize him, your failure rate is much lower.

Your point is still valid that even ONE failure is troubling.  Just not sure that you'd qualify as a statistician.

Not to excuse them at all, but a third possibility for the 14% failing is that they truly thought that they had seen the man.  I like to think that incompetence is more prevelant than malice.

Could it simply be that some providers really don't keep our personal information once it's been used for verification purposes and therefore had no way to be certain whether they had seen your friend or not?  Memory is a faulty tool at best. (How many times do we hear that eyewitnesses totally screw up significant elements of a crime?)  

Perhaps those who failed your test simply thought they remembered him and were honestly trying to be helpful.  Or, of course, your views on the results may be correct.  Given the design of your experiment, there is no way to know for certain.

...besides '2) they just don't care about anyone but themselves', is that maybe like me, some of these ladies don't ask for references and don't give references either!

I fail to see the value of asking someone I don't know to give me a reference on a new client, and I don't know one single escort personally.  So what are you going to do if something goes wrong with the appointment (you get ripped off, etc.), call the escort who gave you the reference and yell at her?

Something I find more useful than asking for references is to ask the client for his TER user name, as well as his employment information.  To date, I have never had the slightest issue with any client who has provided his employment information and his TER user name, (if he is familiar with TER.)  

On the few occasions when I did give a reference it always backfired on me!  One escort requesting a reference was actually checking up on her boyfriend!  Another escort gave me very little information on the guy, something like Dr. John in Seattle, nothing else, and when I responded that I didn't remember him, she got nasty with me and told me I was too lazy to be bothered to call him to remind myself who he was, as she would have done in my position .... but of course she hadn't given me his phone number!

Of course, each of us should do whatever it takes to verify and feel comfortable with a new client, but I think your survey just confirms what a waste of time it is to ask for references.

Suzanne in San Diego

Are you sure he's never seen those how said "Yes"??

...this fellow sounded like someone a "failing" responder knew, and she vaguely remembered that he wasn't a problem.  OR, possibly, the standout, memorable hobbyists are the ones that are trouble, while the ones she can't remember are (by default) okay.  Not a very reliable system when your safety is at stake, but a little better than no info at all.  Do you think it would help to see a guy's reviews on TER, in addition to a referral?

scientific method. Outstanding job. I mean that as a sincere compliment. Not sarcastically.

On the matter of what to do. I think you've already made a fair dent into identifying the level of risk via your analysis. But unfortunately, only you can decide what risk is worth taking. That's always been the tricky part of any business.

I don't think it would be wrong of you to ask for other references if the one he offers is on your bad list. Or if you think about it, if you've identified 30% of the references to be unreliable, then ask for three references. Statistically one should stick.

I caution against put a "will not accept list from:" on your site. This would be creating a defacto "black list". I see no good coming from that and the ensuing wrath wouldn't be worth it.

You're clearly a lady of high intelligence. That's half the battle of staying safe in this world. But in the end, as you know, you can't eliminate the risk altogether.

Good luck and stay safe.

I'm sure it would not be too hard for some of the girls in question to figure out that you are talking about them. If they frequent these boards, you will probably be outed and flamed by the offending parties, who will have all sorts of excuses for the 'mix up'.

Secondly, it's pretty clear that you have to change your screening process. Several of the ladies that I have seen in the OC will not use references for this very reason, unless it is from a lady who is also a personal friend. After all you are in competition with them for my time and money, you can't assume they are going to do you any favors. I'm no expert on this, but, there are services out there that you can use to check background without being intrusive, that will cut out the need for the reference. And like Suzanne said, a TER handle is a nice little tool for you to use to find out a little about the guy in question.

Good luck,
NSF

When I have used a provider for a reference it always results in major drama. The providers get upset that they are loosing me as a good paying client. When I go back to visit them I sometimes hear comments like "You just fucked me to get a refererence for her". I was like WTF !!! Other providers get upset that I would be willing to pay another provider more, they raise the price and tell me that the old prices no longer apply. Even being on date-check has its problem.

It is not enough to say your a date-check.com member and for the provider to see who you have listed as seen. SOme will take the time to contact every one just to stir the pot of content. This type of stuff takes the fun out of the hobby.

There are other times when a provider tells me up front that I can use them as a reference to see so and so. A few months down the road I use the provider as a reference and she will not return the calls. I find out later on that the provider that I use a reference with had a fight with provider so and so. So and So finally gets the reference and first thing so wants to know is who have I seen.

...cool with it, and single.

I'm glad that there are ladies like you that still put in the time to verify in other means.  It is frutrating to me when I try to book with ladies that will only take the time to work with references.  Here are my reasons as a man.

1.  All of this is supposed to be kept between the lady I see and myself.  Why should somebody else know who I care to see?

2.  I have only seen 1 or 2 percent of the ladies I see more than once.  If I am in a place where I only see ladies once in a while, I may be forced to ask a lady that I have seen once over a year ago for a reference.

3.  Of the ladies I see more than once, it could be more than a year since I've seen her because I only travel to her city once a year.  For example, I had a lady in Phoenix that I saw two years in a row on my yearly trip.  She was unavailable and I ended up not seeing anybody because the ones I wanted to see wanted "two recent" references.  She was the only one I could really give!

4.  I am willing to share personal information as much as you want to make you feel comfortable. I am a single guy and have lived in my location for over 7 years and worked for the same company for over three times that long.  I'm not afraid of my boss finding out as he has asked me to take him to TJ.  I can be verified otherwise!  Especially if I am from another city than you.

I appreciate that the ladies want to be safe.  But, if you are a stickler on references I think this is crazy.  I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has seen many escorts but goes through periods of time where he doesn't.  It doesn't necessarily mean that I can't give a reference but I do feel guilty asking for one from a lady that I haven't seen in over a year.  Even if I have seen her numerous times.

But at the same time, Why would anyone be upset that I am looking out for my safety? Safety is #1 in this Biz right? I would never divulge my list of ladies who didn't pass, thats why I presented this question asking for what I should say to potential client when he calls and trys to use a lady who gives bum references-

I don't see why any provider would get mad if I never put names out there.- Just a thought?

I understand that there are ladies like this. But my "#2)they just don't care about anyone but themselves" was referring to the possible reason why I would get a "i've seen him" response- not why I wouldn't get a response at all.

I got the impression you thought I meant that was a reason for the 40something providers not to respond to me, thats why I left that percentage out of my figures.

I'd much rather a lady respond and say she'd prefer not to give a reference, than for her to lie straight to me and tell me she's seen someone when she hasn't.

IMO, honesty is always the best policy.

My response had nothing with any particular age range of providers.  My one and only point was  that maybe one reason some of the escorts did not respond was because they believe, as I do, that references are a useless waste of time and therefore doesn't ask for them or give them either.  

What's you point about honesty? You want honesty, I delete requests for references... it's not my problem to jump through hoops for someone else's screening criteria when I think it's a useless screening criteria, especially when I won't ever be asking for a reference from them myself!  

Don't start telling me I should be helping other escorts out by giving references .... what am I expected to do if the client turns out to be a problem?  At the most, I could only say how a client behaved during our time together, and to be perfectly honest that's confidential information which I keep between the client and myself!
Suzanne

Asking for references will do absolutely nothing to enhance your safety! For all you know, you might be asking for a reference from an escort who has been busted recently and is working with LE.... this actually happened not too long ago in Orange County.  

If you want to be safe, do your own validation by checking employment information etc. instead of expecting someone else to do it for you!

Don't worry about outing me, I've already outed myself and I know for a fact there are many, many other laduies who agree with me!
S


-- Modified on 2/16/2006 11:36:04 PM

However, I believe that references wouldnt be around if they were completely useless.

What if a client of yours pinned you down and violated you? Would you not be willing to tell another lady about it?

I'm certainly not arguing with you, because you are more than welcome to run your business your way, and I will run mine my way-

when I used the term "40 something providers" I was referring to the NUMBER of providers that didn't respond, not anyone's age. Age had nothing to do with this post whatsoever. Might you be taking that personally and jumping to conclusions too fast because you're in that age range? Just a guess. I havent looked at your website.

They're not reliable!

When I GIVE a reference, the gentleman needs to contact me first and let me know which lady will be asking me for the reference. That way, I know the request from the lady for a reference is real, and I'm not giving out info about the client out of turn.

I know that some providers don't like my policy and get annoyed or impatient, but others understand and appreciate it.

You could state that you accept references from only certain ladies (who you believe you can trust), making it more positive statement, rather than a negative Do No Trust List.

Good luck!

Laurel

Getting any false positives (yes I saw him) is creepy.  I can see a provider not wanting to alienate a client by "forgetting" him and therefore opting to give a good reference rather than saying I don't remember the dude or "Was he the one with the tatoo of Hillary Clinton on his butt."
 But as you point out, this is about safety.  Here is my related question, ladies.  In a year, what percent of the people you see deserve a bad reference if you knew there would be no repercussions?  If that base rate is high then the seriousness of the false positives is much worse.  If that base rate is very low, then it is still serious but the overall risk is lower.
Beret

What I would do is if a gentleman gives you a reference you are not comfortable with, just ask if he has any other ones. I do this myself & haven't had any problems with it.

I am disappointed when I meet other ladies in a social setting & they tell me that gents have used me as their reference to see them & then they saw him. I am thinking why didn't these girls call me to make sure it was the truth. Anyone could say that they saw someone.

Sara

'Results are IN', was probably not going to use her handle or provider name to raise her concerns, and without the 'alias' feature, this dialog would never have happened.

Sorry, not trying to hijack the post, but, thought it should be pointed out. I say, keep the alias feature available.

NSF

As annoying as they can be most of the time, they do have a useful purpose.  Like most things in life, responsibility is the key.

I too work in an industry where - are you who you say you are  - is important.  Depending on others, is at best a chancy type of affair - and to the best of my knowledge there are NO studies in the Civie world that are like yours.  Hats off for a decent study design.

What to do?  In the civie world - there is a much more "liquid" info flow.  So in addition to the "word of mouth" we can and do verify a lot of other things - financial records, criminal background, educational checks etc.  I do have a friend who has invested in access to a couple of databases - and she does do a quick background scan on the new guys she sees.  in the spririt of full disclosure however, I must tell you that she (at my request) did a quick scan on me.  Although it was inaccuarte with respect to current circumstances - it was close enough for her purposes to verify that I was who I stated I was, and that I was not a danger to her....  You may wish to look into such a service.

In short, I am always uncomfortable requesting a reference from one provider to go see another provider - although I have done it...  I think it puts everyone in a ackward position....

background checks are much more discreet and easier to use.

How do I skirt the situation when I get a gent who wants to use a provider that didn't pass my reference test as a reference?

I'm not asking what should I do for verification other than references. I for one like them, and have had very little success in the past asking for employment information, last names etc in order to do a "Background" check. All of this, and I have been around a year and a half and have over 80 9/10 reviews. (I'm very trustworthy but clients dont like passing out this info)

Thanks

I think you should

1)Ask him to contact the reference first to refresh her memory and get her approval.

2) Keep a list of unreliable references for yourself and weigh it against other verification information. You don't need to post them.

3) If you are unsatisfied with the references ask him for more. That would be tough on us, the hobbyists.

Personally, I prefer giving out personal information than providing references.

-- Modified on 2/17/2006 1:33:25 PM

I truly see your point, but if you were going to see the guy that you requested the reference for from the 85 ladies, you'd have seen him based upon only 14 % of the ladies' responses.  The ones who didn't respond, you'd NOT see him and the ones who said they had no idea who he was, you'd also NOT see him, so actually, only 14% of the ladies, intentionally or not, potentially jeopardized your safety.  That seems to be what's most relevant.  I'm not trying to argue with you and I do think that it's a very interesting experiment.  

-- Modified on 2/17/2006 6:55:20 PM

I'm with the other guys that have responded to this portion of the thread.  I would say give the guys a choice.  If they would rather give more personal information than give a reference, give them that option.  

With a site like www.infospace.com you can do a reverse search on email, phone numbers and addresses.  Many of us would rather give you more information than have to involve a third party.

We all want you to feel comfortable because that makes our meeting with you that much better.

When I did ask for them, I specifically requested a "reliable reference". I made the decision if the reference provided was reliable or not. If I did not consider her reliable, I just told the punter that I did not know her, and could he provide the name of somebody I might know?

Your experiment shows exactly why I no longer request references. I decide on a case by case basis if I consider the reference acceptable for screening, should the punter provide one. I also don't mind acting as a reference for a punter who has seen me.

I like it though.  Sounds like a British term.

and I only saw a couple who really got your point.  I saw responses to justify why the providers failed, question your statistics, give their opinion about asking for references, discuss the merits of aliases and ask about the guy whose name you used.

So, answering your question:
The providers that failed are unreliable references because they gave an OK to a guy that they couldn't have seen and at best could have mistaken him for someone they thought they saw.  So you can't use them if a guy lists them as a reference.  Do Not put their names on your website or let the guy know that you think she is a bad reference - that will just cause more trouble.  Just tell the guy that you are haven't gotten a verification from one of his references (you don't have to say which one) and ask for another reference.  Hopefully both of the references that he gave are not on your "Do Not Trust" list.

Punter= british hobbiest

I know one who got a reference and the guy robbed her. She is lucky to be alive.

I've been a provider for 2 years now and never understood why any lady would provide or want a reference from another lady. Why should I take a chance on a guy and be the guinea pig so when you see him you know (or think) for sure that he's cool?

Additionally,just cuz I saw joe schmo 6 months ago and he was a great guy then doesnt mean he's the same great guy today-things happen,people change. He may be a druggy drunk raging lunatic now.

References are stupid-I understand people want to be discreet etc etc but why should a lady feel comfortable inviting you to her place and being intimate with you when you won't even provide your REAL name and work #?

when someone's ass is on the line , you don't THINK you should KNOW

you are my kind of lady!

In San Diego we have a hobbyist and frequent poster on the local board with the user name 'visitorsfriend' who is know to be LE.  We also have two escorts named Kat and Lauri who are reviewed on TER who are also know LE.  With your willingness to let hobbyists get away with not giving you employment information, it's a good thing for you that you don't live and work in San Diego... you'd be an easy LE target!  
Suzanne in San Diego

Duh, I know I PERSONALLY would never just guess that I'd seen a man and give him a good reference.  My point, which you obviously missed entirely,  (by the way, I BEGAN my post with: "NOT to excuse them at all, but..")was to challenge her assertation that the only two possible explanations were that either the provider who gave a good ref was trying to sabotage her purposefully OR was selfish and cared about no one else but themselves.  That's why I said that I hope that incompetence is more prevelant than malice.  Did you even read my post?

Forget about giving references, I would scream that information as loudly as I could on every TER board available!

I know. I'm an ass. but I love a great jello wrestle match.