Every few weeks on this board, someone raises the issue of "romance" or feelings between provider and hobbyist; I've been there and done it more than once, so have my own answers to those issues.  

I would like to raise with experienced hobbyists and providers another aspect/phenomenon of the relationship between provider and hobbyist that I've seen repeatedly among some providers.  I'll call it the approach/avoidance phenomenon and it goes like this:  You have several great sessions; you get to know each other a bit and eventually mutually agree that there's more to the relationship than provider/hobbyist -- that indeed, there's a human or romantic connection.  As a hobbyist, you feel relieved and gratified. What used to be merely a "business" relationship that existed in the land of fantasy now has entered the world of reality.

At that point, the provider backs off.  Maybe she breaks dates; maybe she isn't available.  You struggle with it and get things back on track.  She makes some type of "commitment" to keep the relationship going.  Then she backs off again.  It keeps going on.

I've seen this repeatedly.  My own view is that it is reflective of the provider's personal difficulties with intimacy -- as soon as she gets close to someone, she can't deal w/ it (that's one of the reasons she's in this biz) and needs to back off.  But I'd be curious as to whether other hobbyists have had this experience and what they think, and what some of our perceptive providers (who are not necessarily parties to this behavior) think.  (Um, you know who you are!! C'mon, comment!)

I think you're right in your observations and conclusions about what accounts for providers "backing off" when it comes to stepping out of the client/provider relationship and entering into something more "real". Not that the C/P relationship is not real, it's just that within that context there is a certain degree of emotional safety and when those boundaries are transended that safety is threatened. I believe it is possible to move forward in the relationship and develop something else (see the post below - "Romance or is it just an act").It can be quite difficult to make the transition and unless there is a committment from both parties, it seems likely to fail, with the provider retreating to a familiar safe position. If there is a desire and need for both parties to move beyond P/C I think it is essential for them to discuss the evolving relationship, where it is headed, and what are the new "rules and boundaries."   The new relationship needs to continue to be a balanced fair,  win-win situation. It may or may not continue to co-exist with the old P/C relationship. It is possible, I suppose, to have more than one type of relationship with an individual i.e. Business/Personal. I would hope that the possibility exists for deepening, broadening and going beyond the P/C relationship, with mutual consent and working through (like in any other relationship). The key is mutual respect and the absence of any exploitation! I too am new to hobbying (have dabbled before), have found and currently find myself facing this dilema and don't yet know what the current outcome will be. Prior attempts in the past have not worked out for me but I've learned from them. It would be helpful to hear from others who have struggled with this issue, particularly those who have successfully made the transition with a good outcome! (you've got to be out there; cynicalman aside). Maybe there is hope for the human condition after all.
444

I went through that exact scenario, almost word for word, for the exact reasons you laid out, with an early provider of mine.  

However, my feeling about it is this...SUCKER!  I think that I got taken (emotionally, not financially), but it was my fault for putting myself in that situation.  It takes two to make a situation like this, and I think that guys (myself included) who think that some good "sessions" and some shared interests are enough to form the foundation for a relationship with women who, for the most part, aren't loking for a relationship, are the ones mostly to blame if they have a bad experience. I think the majority of providers who are emotionally mature maintain barriers to prevent something like this from happening, and I think that is likely the best thing for both parties involved.  Many of the ones that don't maintain these barriers are ones who, like mine, are not as emotionally mature and who eventually create exactly the scenario that you mapped out.  Of course, there are exceptions all around, but I think that most guys (myself included) who think that they might have a healthy intimate relationship with a provider that is outside of "the hobby" are setting themselves up to be disappointed.  

I am glad that this scenario happened to me, actually.  I was naive, and I think I have a much more balanced outlook on the issue now.  Again, there may be exceptions, but I think that if you connect with a provider and see her on a repeat or regular basis and the two of you develop some genuine caring for each other, be happy with that for both of you, and don't look for anything further unless she comes looking for you.

So true 'Turk' and also so painfull. I have experienced several times when having broken new ground intimacy wise with my ATF she will shortly thereafter seek to emotionally distance herself and rebuild her "wall".
 
 As I strive to stay true to my name I must admit it hurts more than I care to let on.

  Cm.

keep in mind. it also hurts when the privoder has feeling for the hobbist and everything is great. you give the ertxa mile only for him and the money doesn't change hands then he says he can't handle you being a priover so you think about stopping it and then he's gone out of your life. that hurts bad also. so i guess we have to learn to hide our true feelings and don't get to close. some people you just click with and some you are just the privoder. just my 2cents.

like spacey, two sentences into your post i was already hurting all over again (yes folks, i too can feel, perhaps more keenly than others - hence the cynicism) and i was saying to myself: "sound familiar? FOOL?"

i need daily reminders to revise/reinfornce what i like to call "The Myth of Exception" (MOE) which is the following (all of it in quotations)

- but surely my ATF is just another girl who needs to make ends meet
- she's strong, smart, sexy and is no different than any civilian i'd meet in a [insert venue]
- soon she'll leave all this behind and become mine exclusively
- until that day (which may take a LONG time) i should be patient and generous
- our feelings are strong, i KNOW this thing will work, it's just a matter of time
.
.
.
- she's different than all the rest, i can feel it


it's funny how one can mess with a guy's big head by simply yanking on his little head ... sooner or later he'll make himself believe anything and everything he needs in order to bring the two heads to see ... errr ... head-to-head (which he thinks is the ultimate desired state)

really makes one scratch one's head ...

cynically yours,

Cm2.0 (temporarily previously known as Cm3.0, but not today, it's sunny and i have a date with my ATF!

As we have seen the post before, providers agree on most regulars leave after 2-4 sessions.  So is she doing that to play hard to get and keeping u interested?  or she was into u, so she wanted brake away.  Is she doing that as part of GFE service, or u think she is having the feeling for u?
And also I thought that we see provider for fun and good time, not get hurt emotionally.

Okay Men repeat after me.  Its all about the Money.  Come on say it you know it is true.  If it were not true she would stop by and screw your brains out for free.

Maybe she is just giving you time to build up her I mean your bank account.  Isn't love grand?

We need the pig to straighten out, are less than Cynicalmen.

I said in my post that there were exceptions to all things, and I have known of a couple of providers who were the ones who were left out to dry emotionally, including one who mailed me her story today.  It may be first and foremost about the money, but it doesn't mean that all providers are emotionally cynical.  From the gals I have met in the past nine months, I would say far from it.  

just me, but i use the money to stop me from getting emotionally involved.  

i have another income, so the "it's all about the money" means something entirely different to me.

the money is my little/big wall.

the funny thing is, a guy's money usually isn't green enough if we click well enough for a fourth date.

just not strong enough for emotional relationships.  i don't like getting hurt, and i always get hurt.

i still need intimacy, but on my terms. this is how i date.

I do not take the hardened view that it's ALL about money; perhaps that's the case with some providers, but certainly not all.  

I think, realistically, providers are humans just like us hobbyists.  As you said, you don't want to get hurt -- the money is a dividing line, a barrier.  That's good.  

But I think you said it all.

For me I have to say that silly's post really does make sense!
The money is just that, a wall and a way to keep from getting
to involved emotionally with someone. And really to the point
if she were to want a relationship with anyone then I think that
she would be willing to leave the safety of the profession
to make that commitment to someone that she clicks with.
As for me. A hobbiest I got going in this hobby for some of the
very same reasons, to keep up a wall so that I would not be hurt,
but I happened to fall for a provider and just as described
in the first post, She put up her wall and I went on my way.
What I have learned is to not persue providers for emotional
fulfillment, but rather for friendship and sex. and leave
my feelings at home where they are safe from getting trampled
upon. just my .02 cents.               Trooper

No need to comment further.
Thanks to Spacey, 444, and you..

I would say it's rare to have feelings for someone in this biz that you can't control. Let's take this for example...You may meet many people in a regular job, none of them who'd you want to date, marry or have a relationship with. They are merely a variety of interesting people who pass through your life and who you can learn from.

In the rare instance that you do fall for someone, it's because they stand out as exceptional, either that, or because you are needy. If you miss them, in particular when they are not around, then it's them you are in love with, not the idea of having someone around.

Love exists when you find that exceptional person who changes your life. Money does not change hands and should not. But you never know if the chemistry is durable until you get to know them and know them for years and have shared experiences on which to build.

I'm sure there are bound to be some ladies and gents that suspect it might be love but give it time. If it's around in 3 months, 6 months or a year, then you'll know. Infatuation isn't love and sex isn't a relationship. But there are certain people you will never forget even if only they remain friends. If you long for them, than that's where the friendship turns into something unique and irreplacable. You can always make new friends but can you ever top the untopable?

our favourite mantra and some of its attendent logical constructs

*

Theorem 1:  It's all about the money  

Corollary 1.1:  If it's NOT about the money (ie. she gives it up for FREE) it may be about something more "sinister" (eg. malignant co-dependancy)

Corollary 1.2:  A lateral conclusion to Corollary 1.1 is that the sinister motive can also be about money, but indirectly so (eg. marriage)

---

ADVANCED NOTES:

some among you might take exception to our mantra being labeled a theorem, since theorems require proof ("oops!") and frankly all that is needed is one solitary negative example (of a provider who isn't about the money!) to disprove this theorem completely ("say what?")  BUT, fortunately for us [sigh] no such case has been shown to exist that is completely devoid of any dubious exceptions. hence, for all cynical intents and purposes, we may as well adopt the mantra as our root theorem and proceed deductively thereafter

in fact, for a "hardcore" cynic the root theorem itself would be elevated to an Axiom (a statement taken for granted, requiring no proof) and henceforth the above corollaries themselves become theorems. an analytic proof of the subsequent closure of the system of axioms and their deduced theorems takes us into the realm of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem ... and since none of us can truly understand that (at least devoid of a circular paradox of set theory) we may as well forget it about it:  it's all about the money!  Q.E.D.

It's almost ALL about the money.

Providers are human, too (most of 'em anyway) and they have clients the like, ones they don't, some they care more about than others and some they simply accept because it's business.

Sometimes, there's MORE than genuine 'like' involved.   Genuine friendship develops.  And THAT is when the problem starts .... and it's almost ALWAYS the man's fault.

You want to take her to dinner - off the clock?   SURE!   She eats dinner ... might as well be you.   The problem is then ... you NOW think that because you're friends, she should want to see you (sexually) on that friendship level - for free.   You want to transcend that barrier where you have to pay her to be with you (sexually).    I'm not talking trading goods for services here .... I'm talking about getting it for free now that you're friends.

Never mind the fact that you're friends with Dan down at the Gas Station ... and you never expect Dan to give you free gas (or free sex).   If you dated the checker at Vons, you wouldn't expect her to give you free groceries.

At my Strip Club, I used to get boyfriends angry that I wouldn't let them hang around all night (I had a rule) and I always asked them "Can she come around YOUR work and just hang out and watch you all day?"   Do you give away free {whatever you sell or do} to the providers you're friends with?   Car Salesmen - how many cars have you given to proividers?   Real Estate moguls - give then any land lately?    No, of course not.

One simple fact of business is that you HAVE to make money off your friends because your ENEMIES DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH YOU ..........    so ... why do you expect the provider to give away her services just because you're friends?

A:  Because you're stupid, that's why!   Because you think that this is a game for her and not a dead-serious business.

[OK - NOT YOU!   YOU have never thought any such thing and YOU are not stupid.  I didn't even mean YOU - I mean't THEM ... yanno ... the stupid ones]

Well said pig, especially the "you HAVE to make money off your friends..." part. ROTFLMAO..so true.

That said, I met a provider who has become a real good friend in addition to an ATF. We have many similar interests and a lot in common. I have been able to avoid the problem because I haven't made the mistake you mention.

If we want to go to dinner, out for the day, or whatever, we do it. I never, for one instant, assume that the friendship will carry over into the bedroom. If I want to see her professionally, I let her know. Sometimes we combine the social/professional aspects, but it's always her call. You've got to have good communication in order for this to work.

There have been times where she has refused or returned my donation at the end of a particularly nice day, but I _never_ expect or plan for it.

It all boils down to respect. Respect the fact that she's got to make a living too and you've solved half the problem.

It works when there is mutual respect, good reality testing, and a fair, balanced, non exploitative relationship! Thank you slimroot for restoring faith in the human condition!!
444

In your post you postulate that the reason a woman becomes a provider is because she cannot handle close, intimate relationships.  I suspect it's more often the case that the reason a woman cannot have a close relationship is because she is a provider.  She may want to have one but her current career choice, for many reasons, just won't allow it.

Also you claim to have experienced the situation you describe many times.  I'd suggest you try to find your next girlfriend at a bar or night club instead of in the TER review section.

-- Modified on 9/6/2003 8:01:59 PM

-- Modified on 9/6/2003 8:03:42 PM

-- Modified on 9/6/2003 10:05:35 PM

I had a provider today tell me that we would be friends even if she walked away from her current business.  I think this lady is so special.  I would never take advantage of her by asking her for free time.  In fact I love to give her money.  She takes it when I owe it and refuses when I don't.  I can trust her to not take advantage of me.  Nothing to do with her occupation we just clicked.

Well I must admit that I often suspect the single guys who have never had a serious relationship with a civilian probably also have intimacy issues.  I am not sure where the best place to develop a relationship is but it is probably not a bar or a nightclub.

By this time next week I will have spent a total of 10 days with my ATF spread out over 6 encounters.  I think we went through that 3-4 date rut but got through that.  Would I like not to pay her?  Sure, but I do think there is something to this money barrier that brings a little sanity to the situation.  As Megapig says you make money off your friends and I have no problem with that.  And I am as cynical as the next man.  I am not sure what would happen if no money was involved and more importantly I don't want to find out.  

Amazing how you can transition from asking if any one would make their ATF their S/O to this position but I think it really is the only sane position.  Course you said Romance is sane?LOL

If so, my feathers got ruffled!
I read his post over a number of times, and I don't get the impression he's implied that a woman 'becomes a provider because she cannot handle close, intimate relationships'!

What the heck burr got in your britches that you would jump on him so undeservedly?? Your last sentence is inappropriate and uncalled for, and I for one have taken offense!

GRRRRRR! And @!@&! So there!

ROBs, scheisters and other criminals don't make money off their friends ... just a thought (something to keep in mind perhaps)

that is all  

"My own view is that it is reflective of the provider's personal difficulties with intimacy...(that's one of the reasons she's in this biz)."

As for my last sentence, it may have been worded harshly but I think it is true.

see the thing with strip clubs is that girls are simply teasing and not providing.

Megapig, if that was your strip club, you were profiting off of the girl's teasing the boys... i'm not going to point fingers here, but now i understand the jaded (megapig) attitude.

providing, for some of us, isn't about the money. Not in the way that it is/was for you. again, simply stated, it's about intimacy and the wall.  the safe place to have a man closely and fully without needing to hear promises.

if there wasn't a payment, i'd feel like he expected something more.

and i'm not greedy.  

i never had a session with someone that i wouldn't have dated for free.  i made up my mind about that when i first started advertising.  Then again, i never had more than four sessions with the same guy, no matter how many times he asked for that fourth session.  i don't want to get too close to anyone.

i'm not saying the money isn't a nice thing to have in the end, it certainly doesn't hurt when the car needs an unscheduled repair.

So, megapig, while the sex industry is something you want to make profit off of, and while you can only think of in terms of profit and money.

There are others of us that use that money for different reasons.

isn't humanity a wonderful thing?

Thanks, Sedona.  Superficial misunderstands my observation, which was made partly as a rebuttal to the cynical view, often expressed here, that for providers, "it's all about money," and that they are, essentially, making fools of many hobbyists by enveigling them into a false "relationship."  What I was/am saying is that I think some providers do have feelings for hobbyists but have genuine difficulty managing those feelings -- just as hobbyists obviously have difficulties managing their feelings for providers.  My post was addressed to a particular phenomenon that I've seen in providers -- the approach/avoidance phenomenon (which is documented in psychological literature) and to ask if others have seen it as well.  It think we had an intelligent discussion of the subject and managed to throw some light on it.

As for DeeplySuperficial's ad-hominum attack, I'm not in a position to understand people who take pot shots at folks they don't know the first thing about!  May he/she be blessed with full employment taking care of his/her own concerns and may my observations no longer occupy space in his/her head without paying rent!

some people (both providers and clients, but particularly the guys) are looking for a 'real relationship' through the hobby.
I thought that was the whole idea NOT to, or have to. Anyone venturing down that road is sure to have some difficulties.
It takes both the C/P participation to keep it 'on track'.

you're posting under an alias, so I can't PM you, but I'd like to have dialogue with you as I like your viewpoints.

Sedona
[email protected]

I agree that you have to set limits. I have a few providers whom I can actually call friends, but they also know not to cross the line and make me feel guilty because I have to make a living. When that happens, it's very uncomfortable for the provider and the client. There is no reason why you cannot respect one another and be friends. However, this is a business and should be kept on a professional level. What someone chooses to do after hours is his/her choice, but don't confuse business with after-hours pleasure. I'm fortunate that most of my clients are more like dates. We really enjoy each other's company. In fact, I even celebrated a one-year anniversary with a particular client who brought it to my attention that it was exactly one year that we met. We celebrated with champagne, and I threw in an extra half-hour because he's a great guy and I enjoy his company. I'll even give birthday discounts to REGULARS. Now guys, don't go getting the idea that every provider should do this, but keep in mind that there are quite a few client/provider relationships that work.

Hugs,
Ciara

Well the hobby does tend to get men closer to the "woman of their dreams" without having to sift and search so I suspect for some people they try to use it as a screening service without realizing their chances of ending up with a provider as their s/o is practically zilch.

Gee I said all that in one sentence without a single punctuation LOL

I saw a wonderful provider one time (once and only once).  We had a great time and I felt like we connected.  I've tried to reach her but she won't return my calls/emails.  I can't think of what else it could be other than problems she has with intimacy.  Oh well.  I hope she's able to overcome it someday as she deserves to experience the satisfaction of an intimate relationship.