So you call me up and tell me how you can't afford X amount and how all you have is $200 because "times are tough and I'm not made of money in this economy". Okay, here's the doozie....Then you brag about how many escorts you saw that month and are going to see on the same day.

My budget is $250 per session but I'm seeing 15 providers over my 3 day stay.

I am really getting sick of these men that call up and whine about how little money they have and then tell me about all the women they are booking for the least amount possible.

If you are broke, you are broke. Don't be trying to pretend you are broke and then bragging about the number of women you see.

This is the kind of stuff that breaks providers down over time because we have to listen to it all day long, every day. If you want to have happy, upbeat providers and groom them to provide good service and off the clocks, don't pull the "crying game".
I'm seeing big canines, the ones that carry beer through the snow and they are clumsy and tripping over their own feet When you call me and say this stuff, all I see is that specific breed of dog staring at me in the snow like he hasn't a brain in his head. I don't know whether to pet you or send you back to the house. You take up a lot of time and space but standing out there in the snow looking at me all stupid like, I just want to say "You big stupid lug. What the f are you thinking."


-- Modified on 1/27/2004 11:36:57 AM

THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT...

So ... wait ... you're saying St. Bernards don't have the money? Or are they the ones bragging about how many lassies they've shagged? Or both? I'm one f'king confused male ...

Any first time client who attempts to bargain with me is shut down immediately. What a horrible first impression they make! I just don't understand it. You want ME to share MY delicious body with you, but there's a catch? You cannot afford it? Well, my kitty doesn't give discounts. She eats Science Diet only, and if I were to give you a discount, I could only feed her Purina. She's starve.


FYI, I happen to be extremely generous with my time and money. If a client overpays or tips me an extreme amount, I return the money every single time. Sometimes I want to slap myself when I realize I've just returned $100-$500, but I cannot justify so much more than my rate. The ironic part is the men who always tip generously are the ones with whom I spend the most delightful time. There's almost a direct correlation between tipping and being a perfect gentleman. On the other hand, it's usually the clients (99.999%) who expect the most who want to pay the least. These are the clients who have poor hygiene, are insulting, demanding, disrespectful, and attempt to take advantage of my time.

I'm saying I can't walk you through the lobby of Mandalay Bay without knocking everyone and everything over. You look a lot stupider than you think you look.

Don't get angry and hang up saying "I thought you were nice. I thought you would understand when I guy is out of work or is hurting after Christmas. Heather, you should be ashamed of yourself."

The only thing I am ashamed of is that I stood there with the receiver to my ear watching you slobber all over your hooves.

Case in point. Lawyer from Salt Lake City says $250-$300 is going rate for SLC. Come here and see me Heather for $250 an hour...no, wait, if I come to Vegas, can I only pay $150 since I'm saving you the trip? So what he's trying to do is secure the rates he could get in his city in a market that is more pricy.

If you go to Vegas and you are from Podunk Iowa, the Bellagio isn't going to give you a break because you work at the AM/PM mini market and live in Iowa. You are going to pay the same amount as the guy who came into Vegas from NY and makes 1 mil a year. And it's not necessary the impovershed that are pulling this shit. A lot of lawyers pull this technique (I think I had one decent lawyer once, a goodguy) but I don't know how women can see them since they are always working an angle trying to manipulate. They do not use this hobby for fun. They use it to empower themselves into a position to degrade.

"Well, I can get prettier for less." "Well, I wasn't serious about seeing you, I just wanted to see how low you'd go."

What does this say about you as a hobbyist? It goes beyond being cheap. Cheap isn't the word. This type of person is evil, not cheap. Talented cheap people are smart enough to know how to get what they want for the price they want.

That's why I'm saying these guys look like St. Bernards. They aren't smart enough to have figured out how to get the most out of a woman. Sweet talk and repeat bookings go a long way to securing you a long term relationship with a good provider for the best deal. There is a pretty good chance that a provider will offer you rock bottom rates if you are local and can see her regularly and are a true gentleman and a blast to be with.  But our St. Bernard is going to have to move onto the family up the block.

For every 1 great hobbyist, there are 100 St. Bernards so I do want the goodguy to know he is appreciated even though he may be the minority, a welcome loving mutt in a sea of purebred, high strung "back to the shelter", "piss on the floor" types.




-- Modified on 1/27/2004 12:54:48 PM

..I recently read a bio from a girl who stated she'd rather hang out with the guys because her girl friends were whining all the time.. sounds like this is what we have here..

..look, this is simple, ya just hang up on these guys, you don't give 'em a reason because they wouldn't get it anyway; just move on and forget these types, they're all around us in every segment of business.. it just goes with the line of work you're in; don't dwell on it or it will start to affect your performance in other areas..(and you sound like it already has)..

a tongue like his I might think about asking for a discount too.

Tongue size does not matter, nor does bark. The basenji is barkless. Checkout his morning after...

You strike me as a person who doesn't want to deal with people.  I know PLENTY of ladies who hold to their rates, and don't get so stressed over it.  It seems to me that you are conflicted between seeing these guys anyways at the lower rate, even if it makes you feel cheap about yourself.  If you had the self confidence to just tell these guys to take a hike, and just block the ones that continue to pester you, you'd feel better about yourself.

Heather,

You have a right to be upset, but getting upset is self-destructive (or at the least counter-productive).  As a person who respects a providers pricing, I believe such negative energy is transferred to my sessions.  

So please, just see it for what it is - NEGOTIATING tactics.  No matter how personal they try to make it, IT'S JUST BUSINESS.  You will never be able to change others' behavior, so learn to recognize it, do NOT take it personally, and send the dogs home with their tail between their legs.

You can post "rates non-negotiable" all over your website, but it's not going to stop this behavior.  So YOU make the adjustment.

Peace
Silk

I am a good person. I don't tell anyone to take a hike. That isn't the way to solve this. You don't show people the error of their ways by telling them to fuck off.

If you want to earn high end rates, you have to treat everyone with respect, even the creeps. I am not an eye for an eye person. Game players can learn the errors of their ways if someone takes the time to show them the impact of their time wasting behavior.

This isn't about "getting the booking" and walking away with a score of cash. It's about having a good experience that both parties are happy with. Men need to grow into human beings and you can't inspire someone to be more human by telling them to fuck off.

Don't you read all that stuff about how prison makes criminals angrier. You can change people by showing you care for them and explain to them why they shouldn't be asswholes -- how life affirming behavior and kindness can work wonders and transform even a St. Bernard into a livable mutt.

The reason you have to ask yourself is "Why are you negotiating?"  Wouldn't you want to take good care of someone you care for? And if you don't care for your provider, then you shouldn't be there in the first place.

I had more than one experience where a guy tried to pull the negotiating, whining bullshit and rather than get angry, I took the time to allow him to get to know me over a period of time, my obligations as a parent and my overhead for incall. In most cases, when I took the time, they saved up their money and booked but it did take some time for them to that point because they have gotten used to trying to be difficult.

You have to be better than the crap that is there to drag you down. But it's human to be pissed off about it. But I don't show it to my prospective client because I'm not dumping the same stuff to him that he dumped on me. I'd rather dump on a board in a general sense.

If I go and get my nails done, I don't try to negotiate services nor do I do so with my family physician. I pay them their going rates. With services, I always tip 20%. If the service sucks, I'll tip 15%. I don't want a crappy job done. I want people to feel they are being paid well. You get more for the long run when you make people happy to do their jobs and pay them within their comfort level. Employers know this.

HB


-- Modified on 1/27/2004 2:21:07 PM

Yeah-

If you are a buyer, your JOB is to say "ouch that's too high" NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE OFFERED IS.

Just like in most selling its your JOB to get the most you can.

But I ought not to talk right now about this as I have been struck low by the economy too.

But you remain a light in the darkness HBXXX- now can I schedule for $?

LOL

You mentioned IN/OUT Burger but you didn't put up. LOL

If that will ease the negotiations- then I'm there with a double double ASAP!

Seriously- I was just spouting Bus School stuff- we both know that you are out of my league...

And business keeps getting in the way of my hobby efforts!  So its apparently a moot point!

Your price should be your price.  Stick with it and then let the men decide whether you are worth it to them.  I am a hobbyist but feel that being a very good provider is a tough job.  State what you charge and stick with it.  One thing that you may try is to set a multi-hour minimum, that will screen the cheapskates out right away and you will only deal with guys who have the desire to deal with you fairly after making a judgment that you are right for them.  As I read reviews and look at prices I see some very good providers who are working for far less than they are worth and others who are grossly over priced.  The ones who are good should simply charge what they are worth and stick to it.

As far as I can tell from years of hobbying, there is a direct correlation between a state of well being as a person and what a hobbyist is willing to pay for the provider he wants providing the service that he needs.  If a hobbyist tips you big, take the money and lay the biggest, sweetest kiss that you can give him right on the mouth.  Both of you will feel better afterward.  Guys who do tip fully intend to give the provider the money, returning it is a form of an insult, even though you feel that it is right for you.  The big kiss evens the playing field, the hobbyists is allowed to appreciate you and you show that his gratitude is well received.

I'm a consultant. In my business, which is very competitive, people try to negotiate my rate all the time. I tell them politely that the rate I charge allows me to provide a value added service to all my clients, including them. If we have to agree to disagree about my rate, I walk away from the business. I learned two things long ago:

1. It's not personal (until we establish a relationship); it's just business.

2. Sometimes, cutting your rate to win SOME business may lead to you losing THE business. There are a number of defense contractors who are now owned by other companies. They learned that very painful lesson during the 1980's.

Take it seriously, but not personally

Heather, you were making a lot of sense until you blew your credibility by claiming there is a lawyer who is a good guy.

One the other day you wanted to go into real estate. You asked us for ideas on a specific topic. Anyway you think hookers have a hard time with people wanting to negotiate rates - wait til you hand over a listing contract on a commercial property for 10% commission!  The first thing the client will say is that they hope they get head with that! (kidding)

Secondly - for not wanting to subject your clients to this anger, you're doing a bad job.  Unless I'm wrong, all of us who like to visit Vegas could have been your potential clients - and now we're wondering who is more high maintenance - you or our wives?  Just FYI never asked a girl to drop her rates. Only time I ever asked about rates is if its for a time period not shown in an ad (like overnight or something). So am I on the good guy list or the bad guy list?

The fact that you call escorts "hookers" is an indication of your personality. You're expressing far more anger, labeling and arrogance with the use of that term than I have in any post.

I am high maintenance because I express my feelings that negotiation is not the best of tactics. And I suppose you'd want me to sit in the corner with a painted smile and recite Keats while polishing your work shoes. Primadonna.

My Daddy used to tell me that quality oats cost good money. But, if you're willing to settle for oats that have been run through the horse once, a lower price can be had!

Didn't realize it was a taboo term. I've been with escorts who use the same term and others. So if there is a list of okay words and not-okay words I'd hope someone publishes it and soon!!

You're not high maintenance because you express that feeling but just in the way it came out in a broad sweeping generalization. In fact I was with you the whole way until I read:  

"I am a good person. I don't tell anyone to take a hike. That isn't the way to solve this. You don't show people the error of their ways by telling them to fuck off.

If you want to earn high end rates, you have to treat everyone with respect, even the creeps. I am not an eye for an eye person. Game players can learn the errors of their ways if someone takes the time to show them the impact of their time wasting behavior.

This isn't about "getting the booking" and walking away with a score of cash. It's about having a good experience that both parties are happy with. Men need to grow into human beings and you can't inspire someone to be more human by telling them to fuck off."

Are you saying that no one would call and ask for a discount if they weren't truly in need of a discount or that its been your experience that only losers ask for the discount?  Are you saying that we should strive to educate each other and grow in these (sometimes brief) relationships or should we tell someone they must be angry if they use the term hooker?  Are you saying some men need counselling on tact and honesty or is it that all "Men need to grow into human beings"? Are you saying that everyone that was following your discussion and agreed with most of it until a certain point is a Primadonna - or is that just me?  And wasn't there something about "You don't show people the error of their ways by telling them to fuck off. "?  I agree with that one. I wasn't picking a fight  - just trying to get you to think about how you were phrasing this discussion and how some guys might think about it if they were about to visit your town.




-- Modified on 1/27/2004 6:31:02 PM

If you continue to consider Science Diet as being such a class food, that may be one reason why you attract those insulting, demanding and disrespectful clients. When you mentioned Science Diet over Purina, I think of a commercial companion who charges a $99 two hour special vs. a $50 special. In other words Science Diet is really not that much better in quality than Purina. One of the top three ingredients in either brand is animal by-products. You know what that is don't you. That is the diseased brains, intestines, feet, etc. of other animals that they process and put into the cat or dog food. This process is also the primary way how mad cow disease spreads.

My recommendation: raise your rates, don't negotiate and then buy a
quality cat food. If you want respect, you should show the same respect to animals and other people.  

-- Modified on 1/27/2004 6:38:17 PM

I'm saying that hobbyists should respond to specials that providers offer and/or secure bookings with providers who are in their price range.

Do not look for entertainment above what you can afford. Same with a real estate agent showing property. No point in taking your client to see a 2 million dollar home if they can only qualify for a mortgage of 150 grand.

You calling women hookers is the same thing as women calling you a trick. You can call someone who is mentally disabled "disabled" or handicapped but do not call them a retard. It all depends on how respectful you want to be to others.

My generalizations are founded in something. 99.9% of the lawyers I have met in this have been crass, insensitive, cheap and nasty. Direct or to the point is not the same thing has crass.

Examples of crass

Calling an escort a hooker or w****
Walking right into my kitchen and helping himself to all the food in the fridge.
Calling a woman horrible names during the experience.
Going into my closet and trying to look at my personal stuff, invasive activity.
Sneaking the gift$ back out on the way out/theft.
Stealing CD's or other goods from my digs.

These are the things laywers do (except that one, okay two). I had a really nice lawyer within the last year but he wasn't typical and then I had one years ago. But for the most part, these are the types of guys the mob would drown in the sea and no one would lose sleep. But I always keep an open mind. I no longer keep a fridge or hard goods near a lawyer. My space must be barren.

HB

-- Modified on 1/27/2004 7:07:55 PM

I deal in a business where negotiation is largely expected and anticipated. I just don't want to bother with it, especially on lower valued items. All I need to say is "I'm sorry, I've given you my best price." Yes, I lose business all the time, but if I'm consistant I don't end up feeling like I'm selling my soul to get a sale. AND, best of all, repeat customers learn to buy the item if they like it. The problem with giving discounts is it becomes expected on EVERYTHING.

But still, I don't get pissed off at people asking. Why should you??

Glad to see that THIS controversial subject has NOTHING to do with me. LOL

WHEW!

The kinder, gentler IW is back. Aren't ya'll happy? By the way, I don't even own a cat. It's called an analogy. You're preaching to the choir about animal by-products. I have long been a vegan. Save it for someone who appreciates the use of the ghetto, sixth grade word player. I'm not impressed by your nutritional information of pet food.

But Pedigree or Walmart choice cuts, wet in mini-packages. Pedigree runs 49c a package. Walmart brand is 33c. He'll eat the Walmart cuts but he doesn't lick his chops the same as with the Pedigree Chicken Teryakee.

Go have yourself a Carl's Junior $6 Burger. Then tell me if you can go back to a McDonald's .79c burger.

How the F did we get on dog food and fast food?

-- Modified on 1/27/2004 7:23:31 PM

After reading that whole diatribe I am unable to swear eloquently, but I might clear a furball from my throat. Can this thread get knotted and tied off? Or is it going continue to Dante's Inferno? Is the cat fight over?

If someone calls me and is rude or asks asinine questions, I inform them and move on. I have appreciated it when others have told me I was out of line, so it is good to extend the extra effort to explain it to them. Maybe the hobbiest calling is new, and doesn't know better. Maybe he does. Who cares? Some people will never change. Its all about what you are willing to put up with. If this was a perfect job there would be a graduate degree prerequisite.

Many providers offer special rates on certain days of the month when they know they are going to have down time between appointments.  Asking a provider if there are days for special rates or certain pockets of time that might be more economically feasible for you is okay. Asking for a discount simply because you are broke and "want more money to spend on all your other hos and bitches" is another matter entirely.

Don't you men understand anything.

signed,

high maintenance

-- Modified on 1/27/2004 10:46:04 PM

Hi Heather.  I gotta tell ya, I wish I hadn't been busy over the last few days, because it looks like I missed all the fun from this post.  Anyway, you may remember that I once engaged in a brief debate about negotiating.  I don't negotiate routinely, but I once did (out of necessity) and the Board nearly ripped me a new asshole because of it (check out earlier posts).  Anyway, I agreed with you up to the following point:  "Wouldn't you want to take good care of someone you care for? And if you don't care for your provider, then you shouldn't be there in the first place."  

. . . Um, like, are you fuc*ing kidding me?  Do you honestly think we visit providers because we care about them?!?  I, for one, do not.  Because then I'd be a sick fu*k.  You see, that would make me obsessive and possibly delusional.  Do I **care** for them?  Hell, I don't even like them!  Well, not most of them, anyway.  I mean, think about it from a man's point of view (or, in my case, an asshole's point of view).  I'm rolling around in bed with a woman who probably makes as much as or more than I do.  She didn't need any education, references, or experience to get her job (but I did); she can make her own hours (I can't);  She essentially lives off of my addiction, sucking thousands of dollars out of my savings, like a sexy, female drug dealer.  Ultimately, she gets paid, I get played.  What else is there to say?  It's something that I (we) do because I was born with a cock and a male libido.  We're all just addicts in the end, and you can't expect the enlightened addict to *like* his dealer, can you?  Maybe it's my fault that I have an addiction, but that doesn't make you a saint for giving me my fix.  And don't try to make hooking into some sort of mutual, pleasurable exchange; if it were, the John wouldn't be the only one who PAYS!!

Oh, and by the way, since when did the term 'hooker' become so taboo?  I'm sure you have plenty of colorful terms for lawyers.  You don't seem to like them very much but they are sometimes very useful, right?  Just like hookers.  I don't want you to take this the wrong way.  I still respect you as a person.  Well, maybe I don't respect you, but I still think you are really hot.  

     



-- Modified on 1/28/2004 12:10:46 AM

Heather,

I've followed your postings for a year or so, I've read your web site.  While I find you attractive, and am sure you can fuck and suck my brains out, your postings are very inconsistent and scares off customers.  One minute you are in the movie business, the next you are retiring, then running a college special, then revamping your web site (it is quite nice) all within a month or so!  Are you in this business or not?  If you are, don't confuse or piss off your potential clients.  You have a certain reputation, mostly related to your perception of customers which is not that great.  I understand you have met some psychos, but you simply need better screeing and a way to handle them.

As far as discounts, fine, I understand but be careful.  The bottom line is  you are short of cash, you are not a 21 year old hottie, and need to run a special to pay the rent.  I can respect that and you are not a 21-25 year old thin model actress wannabe hottie charging $500+ so want to drum up business.  You are a smart woman (I wanted to say whore but that would piss you off)  Why don't you simply develop your market and maintain pricing to make you feel good, pay your bills, and drive more market share your way?

It seems to me some guys want someone like you, and others want something else.  Dropping your price is not going to attract a guy who wants an escort of another age, shape or color.  Your marketing is just confusing.

I saw your earlier college special, that is an insult to your potential clients over 30 because it infers you are tired with what is your typical client (I guess over 45).  Your clients need to believe that you are attracted to them, not some 20 year old.  Your web site prices were going up and down.  You go from $500 to $1,000 over night.  Your product needs consistency.  Your new web site is very nice, try some smart marketing and the guys will cum.

What you need to do is keep your flagship product at is retail rate, and send coupons to existing "loyal" customers that you have a loyalty reward for them.  Think of the 99¢ burger wars of a few years ago, it killed hamburger fast food industry.  Big Macs and Whoppers should not be 99¢, that cheapens the product.  Don't cheapen your service eiether.

Given all that, I also suggest that you think before you post what just comes to your mind that minute.  The guys (let's just call them John's for fun) remember all the shit posted here and it either turns them on or off.  If you start ranting about guys, then we think you are not there to give us a good time, we think all you want is to try to get us to give you some money.  Most of this hobby is a fantasy.  To be with a woman who pretends to care for us, (and give great head).   Use this board to express your positive opinion on a topic, or in a way to make you more desirable for us.  I (as others) don't need to see a high maintenance ranting pessimistic hooker when we can get a date with a needy civilian or listen to a wife nag or complaint.

Good luck with your marketing.

PS  I am also an attorney, but while I professionally also fuck those who fuck me, I never fuck somone who I pay to fuck me!

I was in Toronto last weekend, while is was -5 outside, it was hot inside.

The lineup (in CAD, about .72 USD):

A 35yo or so Vietnamese FS provider, 8.5/8.5 $160
A 22yo Chinese cutie, outstanding GFE session, 6/9, $250
A 27yo or so Latina FBSM w/extras, 8.5/7, $120

My current favorite, the 22yo superstar Kim from Hollywood Escort, was unavailable, 7/9.5, $250. I can go on and on like this for a good hour.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, none of this multiple hour minimum, two name bullshit where the girl is doing me the biggest favor taking my money. By the way, the Hollywood film industry guys tried to royally f*ck up the business there too, but there's just too much talent to go around. They favor two agencies which feature hotties, but by $100 is the most expensive ticket in town, all with limited service.

Prices here (Los Angeles), in the words of that famous Iraqi philosopher Mohammed Saeed al-Shahaf, have become too far from reality, especially considering all the hoops the client has to go through. Without a doubt, the fee is the fee, but equally qithout a doubt, one must reap what one sows. For the most part, I have great personal affection for the ladies, and respect their business decisions, no matter how much I disagree with them. By the same token, business is business and why can't the ladies respect that basic principle without having to whine about it? Too many of you want it all one way, and organized society, particularly in our little community, simply does not work like that.

That was really sick.  You just confirmed everything I suspected, that some of you hate women and that perhaps explains the negotiation thing. Just a hunch but I would say most of the negotiaters are unhappily married men like the guy who said his wife was high maintenance. The happily married guy will just pay the asking rate and go home and come back again when he's in the mood.

And yes, I think there are a fair number who want to help us and do care for us. Like you said, that's a lot of money to spend and there are literally millions of chicks who hock their bodies.

I, for one, do not have a model body so if they are spending their money on time with me, I can assume it's because they get more than just a body and a face otherwise they would get someone who is 22 without 4 c-sections and a big fat ass.

If you are looking for no strings fun with a woman who fully well knows you are married and doesn't care because she's not out to fall in love with you, then you are booking an escort. You have to understand we women, once you pay us, we  emotionally disconnect just enough to not want to date date you so I would say the payment isn't because we are trying to screw you out of your hard earned money. It's because we are perhaps more human than you are and it's our way of ensuring that when you aren't around tomorrow, we won't be hurt emotionally. Women do fall in love, you know. And the physical, mental, emotional is often hard to separate. The cash makes it easy to draw the line because if I was in love with you, I wouldn't be charging you and you wouldn't be paying unless perhaps we had a kinky marriage.

Again, I don't want you to end up a hardened criminal beating your head against the wall so we do try to educate you on the emotional and mental state of the female.

But on the money thing, as a man showing up to pay my rent or my car payment, how can I do anything but love you. My god, I have had boyfriends (and technically a husband of 8 years) that did nothing of the sort, contribute financially, work etc.

We do sorta see you as husbands. So if you really think hard about this...you may have more than one wife. Your ATF may be your alternate wife or lover. Now, a one time 2 hour appointment is a first date and perhaps an only date. A provider/client relationship that lasts years is much different.
My guess is you have never had an ATF and that you see providers just once therefore, not allowing any bond of friendship to develop.

A recent study shows McDonalds put excessive amounts of caffeine and salt in their foods to make it addictive so you will come back and buy more. The more you eat, the more you want. I have traveled the globe and I can honestly say you can never escape McDonalds.

After I quote them a price and if they don't like it I tell them to take it down the road.  My trade is Auto Mechanics.

If they are that cheap, they're not worth your time, energy or aggravation. Why the f*ck are you bothering to educate dogs on grooming, politics, manners or anything else for that matter? You are wasting your precious time on what? This business isn't what it use to be and it definitely isn't worth the stress. I remember when it was actually about having a good time, now it's about how many different ways you can screw over a provider and for the cheapest possible rates and as long as the market is competitive right now, you're going to get screwed in more ways than one.

This is a business and you need to treat it as such. If they haven't been taught the basic commands like sit and stay, and stop licking your balls, why the F*CK are you trying to teach them algebra?!! I know that was a little harsh, but it's the truth, isn't it? Are you going to get paid overtime for that, I think not. I'm sorry you are having a hard time in this business, but I think everyone is right now otherwise this business wouldn't have gone to shit the way it has. Maybe you should focus your time and energy elsewhere. Hey I'm always looking for a few good Mistresses. It's a great stress reliever in more ways than one.

A product is a product...whether you pay $400 for 2 hours during a special or $500 per hour during market rates. I am no less a woman because I offer a special rate to drive business and as a small business owner that's my perogative to do so.

I am not targeting attorneys who wish to pay $1500 an hour for a model. With a special, I'm targeting the average joe who makes $10 an hour or or got hit by the bad economy. You might be able to afford $500 an hour but not everyone can. So, in offering specials, you pull in different demographics and niche groups.

As a lawyer, you don't offer "specials" to target lower income groups. You all charge a shitload. Poor people have to figure out how to solve their problems through of all things, negotiation. Rich people can hand money to a snake who will sit there and exploit them and act like he's just trying to help in being a mediator. If you really wanted to mediate, offer your services to the people who need them for free. What, you a capitalist?





-- Modified on 1/28/2004 10:02:01 AM

Heather!  Did you get a good look at the tongue on that thing?!

A few suggestions from one of the "nice" guys......

1.  You might want to soften your tone, Heather, as this will NOT make your "service" appealing to new clients.  
2.  Guys, using all of those colorful labels (whore, hooker, etc.) for the providers has become a negative connotation and will not endear you to the providers (unless you are someone who gets off on the hard stuff a la Ava Devine or BeBedoll).  Yes, $$$ is the great equalizer that encourages these pretties to rock your world when most wouldn't give you the time of day in the real world, but don't use the $$$ as a sledgehammer as it only increases the YMMV factor you may run into.  I'm a salesman as well, and verbal abuse will NOT get me to lower my price.  Loyalty and repeat business are the only things that will get me to move off my price, but only in rare instances where a client has a distinct reason for the temporary drop.  Spending too much on my competitor's products is NOT one of the reasons.
3.  Ditto for negotiating. Pity is not an emotion that usually inspires lustful abandon.  If you can't afford it, cut back on the frequency.  You can try the negotiation tactic, but realize that it could blow up on you.  Repeated attempts will get you blackballed as the providers WILL get the word out on you (and you will be blueballed on your end).
4.  Hey, good manners doesn't hurt either.  On BOTH sides of the equation.  Once again, unless you are INTO the rough trade type of session, in which case have at it.  To each his own.

Nice post. While some guy did post "you don't need a degree" to be an escort, that's not to say that this is an easy job.

Once someone books,it's easy. You just have a great time. But dealing with all the phone stuff is for the birds. I powered off my cell phone for the last month, only checking voicemail once every 4 days. I'm now booking by email and that helps in keeping away those incessant phone negotiators.

-- Modified on 1/28/2004 11:20:12 AM

I appreciate your view and will make certain I don't use that word anymore.
Almost everything else you describe is beyond crass. I'm thinking outcall should be mandatory!

The one about horrible names (I know I'm on thin ice here) - but don't some ladies like that, in the real world and in the hobby??

I guess I should have been following the other portions of the thread rather than just your responses to me.  How did I all of a sudden become a guy who negotiates? Ask the ladies I've been with.   But now that I've read the responses to the other guys I'm more convinced than I was before that this is a topic you never should have aired out on this board in this manner.  You run specials and yet you get mad when someone negotiates?  Either your rates are your rates or they are not. If you run specials we have no idea how high a value you place on your time.  Since you like to harass the lawyers so much, ask them if they run specials.

-- Modified on 1/28/2004 5:35:10 PM

Heather, no offense, but you must have a fuc*ing learning disorder or something.  I thought I told you that I only negotiated **once**!  It was a matter of necessity, because I had somehow lost $20 of the donation, and I wasn't prepared to travel all the way back home to get more money.  Something tells me that you were actually trying to respond to Scampr and you accidentally responded to me.  I say this because I am **not** married, and never intend to be.  

Now here's the funny part of your last post:  "[we take your money] because we are perhaps more human than you are and it's our way of ensuring that when you aren't around tomorrow, we won't be hurt emotionally. Women do fall in love, you know. And the physical, mental, emotional is often hard to separate. The cash makes it easy to draw the line because if I was in love with you, I wouldn't be charging you and you wouldn't be paying unless perhaps we had a kinky marriage."

Look, I think you're a pretty smart lady, so I am frankly quite surprised that you would try to bullsh*t us in this manner.  I'm willing to let this go, but you should really try to come up with better lies in the future.  This one makes it sound like you *only* charge the Johns because you are afraid of falling in love, when we all know perfectly well that you charge so that you can pay your bills and take care of your kids.  More power to you.  Wait, strike that; what kind of a provider would want to have kids at all?  That makes you "...really sick" in my book.  I may be a misogynist (and I know that I don't want kids), but even I know that all children deserve a chance at a decent life.  What kind of a person would want to subject kids to this kind of life, as the children of a prostit... er, I mean provider?  And not even just one kid -- four (!) c-sections!?!Anyway, there's nothing I can do about it.

There's one other thing that I don't understand.  You state that you have had boyfriends and a husband who were not financially contributive, right?  I hear things like this from hookers all the time, and I just don't get it.  Why would women who are clearly money-hungry (or at least business-savvy) allow themselves to make such a poor business decision like marrying a deadbeat.  You'd think that hookers would be the biggest gold-diggers of all, no?  You just can't make this sh*t up!

Oh, by the way, I like your "...big fat ass."  I think you're cute.  Are there really any guys out there who like small, flat asses?  I mean we're talking about fu*king here, not posing in Vogue!    

Had to look - didn't you!

If I was married and had a good man in my life, I wouldn't be doing this for a living but I don't so I continue to make it on my own in the best way I know how doing something that I actually enjoy.

Not all men support their children. Some men just run away when times get tough and the women are left holding the ball with no child support for years. It happens to men too. My story is not so atypical.

That does not mean women hate escorting. I have the choice to work 3 jobs to support 4 kids but since my son is a diabetic, I chose the route the gives me the most free time to be at home. I can travel for a couple months and then hole up and stay home with them for a lot longer than that.

The world is not perfect.  Ideally, I could be a full time parent but like many of you who married the wrong woman, I married the wrong man. And I'm not calling my ex a deadbeat. People have substance abuse issues way after you marry them. People change, some not for the better. But you keep the hope alive that they will change for the best interest of their children and for themselves.

While you live is a sick world of hating people and bashing everyone, I'm telling you the reality. Negotation takes time and that is time I do not have.

What kind of woman marries a deadbeat? If we could forsee how people change, we'd all still be married or single. People do change and I suspect that is part of the reason men cheat on their wives. She isn't the same as when you married her.  You choose to stay in that situation. I chose to get a divorce. And my life is 100% better now. There is no yelling and screaming in the house. Grandpa and ma run the show and mom pays all the bills and chauffers everyone to Shark Reef.

There are no black and whites in life. We get what we can where we can get it and grow through our experiences.

You may find yourself in a very different place 5 years from now, then you are now and there is a price for every decision you make and sometimes the price is worth it.

A lot of men get into the hobby after a relationship splits or during a time of life decisions when a relationship is having issues.  Some guys are regaining confidence to enter the dating scene. Some wish to avoid it. In some instances, seeing escorts can be constructive. There are a lot of emotional elements to this but you aren't tapping into those because you are jaded.

In your case, you should stop seeing escorts entirely because you are on the road to hating everyone and when people ask for money for their time, you assume they hate you. When in fact, they may just be supporting the people they love doing a job they enjoy.

You need to evolve as a man or you are going to end up a pissed off guy in a "Fuck Off" Tshirt down at Sunset Station dropping nickles. Only you know the route toward a positive evoluation.






-- Modified on 1/28/2004 12:57:17 PM

Bob, you probably are a sweetheart but the law of numbers is against us in this business and as a salesman you would definitely know. Even in my line of work, (play), I understand the concerns of my clients as well as their interests etc., which I learned over time. This has helped me in weeding out the majority of time wasters right out of the gate when on the phone or in email. I apologize Heather for the harsh comments in my previous post, but I call it like I see it. I hate to see providers being taken advantage of,(and I've seen alot) but right now this business is just too saturated to make it worthwhile to go to the extent you are going through. Common sense seems to be an uncommon gift these days. Just keep that in mind when you get irritated.

Where you advertise also has a lot to do with it. Read the review boards on a couple of different sites and you'll get what I'm talking about. How you market yourself has alot to do with the clients you will see or hear from. Obviously, after reading the review boards here and another popular site, I reaaallly know how hobbyists feel and it definitly sucks.

Jeez...sorry.  At least I said something nice, right?  You know, about your ass.  Anyway, no offense, okay?

The large ass is a forgiving ass but it still wants to suck your 401K and given it's velocity...


-- Modified on 1/28/2004 1:15:37 PM

Can one imagine a doctor or attorney or accountant spending all day debating his or her fees with every one who calls for an appointment. A service is a service and the fees are stated up front. Besides, how can anyone ask to pay less...that's assuming a provider is worth less before one has even met her. In fact, I like to overpay...make sure favorite women dress well, eat well, rest, exercise, nice housing, see doctor regularly, mentally adjusted, fund retirement...it all makes for more enjoyable time spent together in the end. Providers have alot of expenses and risks...why try to short change them? The rates are usually comparable to top attorneys, except when they f**k you, you don't enjoy it and come back for more. I'm thankful the business has evolved to where it is today.

definitely is not worth the agravation in most cases.  I feel that from a hobbyist perspective as much as you do from a provider perspective.  I can remember from a hobbyist perspective when it was all about a good time instead of how much client information can I get so he won't write a bad review, how many $$$ can I squeeze out of a client, having to book dates two weeks in advance just like a civilian date and posting expensive gift lists or expected tips on a website.  I can remember when regulars were cherished people as opposed to what does it matter another sucker will be around in a few minutes. I could add to the list but why bother.

Yes it is sad that it has come to this.  However you can't turn back the hands of time and progress so you and I can either deal with it or get out of the business.

Hi Heather;

Not every guy agrees with Aug5's point of view.  Not every guy thinks of providers as "wh..res" or "dislikes" them.  I have affection for the providers I meet, same as women that I would date, even if I do realize it's just a service. So, don't have a complex that most men that see you hate women....most of them, well actually all are just horny. Many of them even love women.

I really do not know what kind of guys you've been dealing with, because this is the first I've heard of anyone haggling over price for this kind of ...well,.. you know.  In my experience, it has been quite the opposite. I feel weird if I don't tip the provider big enough...and each successive time I feel like I have to top the previous tip.  Perhaps, you've encountered some guys have treated you less than you deserve and I'm sorry that you've had to face that.  You have to understand that some of these guys that lowball you may have other problems of their own.  Obviously, they lack the funds but yet still want to feel like a baller.  They want to be at the high stakes table, but don't have the chips. So, they get abusive when their male ego is bruised in having to haggle for services. I can understand that it hurts your feelings because they are not haggling over a pair of tires or a box of widgets, but you as a person or at least a part of you.  To spare you of having to face such a hurtful situation, i think you might want to consider a different tack.  Rather than offending your potential customers by venting your frustrations here, perhaps concnetrating on creating a fantasy to potential customers on TER and making your website and reviews as enticing as possible would be a better strategy.  Part of the appeal is the fantasy.  We work hard to make a lot of money and we pay a lot of money for that fantasy. It's the equivalent of going to an exclusive club...do we pay thousands of dollars just so we can taste some over-priced watered-down drinks on a Friday night?  No.  we do it for the fantasy created by the club that we are going to have an experience we can't get anywhere else on a Friday night. Second, you should do some much better screening. If a guy wants to haggle then just politely say that you are booked.  The guys that haggle the most will demand the most; and are also most likely to be disatisfied and go complain to everyone. Better screening will not only save you that aggravation but also in terms of your safety...if a guy is abusive on the phone, how is he going to be in the room alone with you, with his pants down to his ankles.  Concentrating on attracting clients, not by lowering prices, will allow you to have your pick of who you want to see.    I actually feel bad for you that you have to do this to support your children.  I do sincerely hope you make enough money to quit and have the ability to take care of your kids on your own terms.











-- Modified on 1/29/2004 10:16:00 AM

They happen to make up 99% of my clientel. I wonder why? lol

Sincerely
Mistress Michelle Elise


-The world is but a stage and we are merely players

Lawyers are some of my most favorite individuals, both as clients and as friends. In France, we don't really have this problem of lawyers being seen as greedy or rapacious. Of course, we don't have the same judicial system either, so no precedent-setting for this issue. In any case, Heather, I am very sorry that you have had such bad experiences. The lawyers I have met through this activity have been intelligent, gracious, charming, erudite, well-traveled, informed, NEVER questioning my fees, on time, non problematic, and in general very, very delightful persons. In fact, I have often found a generous tip for me in the proverbial envelope, so stingy they are not. Because of my good experiences with lawyers, I will go to extra efforts to accommodate their schedules and I find I am always rewarded with great conversation and lots of fun. Lawyers often have interesting undergraduate degrees and are usually extremely literate. All in all, they have made this occupation a most pleasant one for me. Again, I am sorry for your past experiences and I hope someone will come along to change this track record for you.

Lawyers are supremely intelligent in book learnin'. I'm not. You're a graduate student so I'm sure you have more to talk with them about. I'm urban white trash so I don't know anything about legalees and those are the classes in college that I had to drop. Now computers, technology, alternative music, drug addicted spouses, raising kids, poetry, script paradigms, the publishing industry, traveling the US by car, the arts and entrepreneurship, that's another matter. They lose patience with me because I'm not all that impressed by status, degrees, name dropping, jaguars and all that stuff. I find it rather a drag. I'm happy with my filet o' fish, my dog and a day watching planes.

HB

-- Modified on 1/28/2004 8:08:07 PM

Move over, boys, let the men behind the wheel

"Lawyers are exterely literate people". Humm, let me think about that for a while!!! Just kidding....

Seriously LA scene is aweful not because of prices, because of amount of information you have to give out before you meet someone. That is why every 45 days or so, I plan to head to Europe for 7 days. There you can have serious fun without giving your blood type and showing your tax return. Needless to say, the selection there blows your mind....

I think the European scene is very different as people meet, have coffee, get to know each other a bit and then go to rendezvous in private. In America, for the most part, there isn't much romantic foreplay to this hobby but when you travel, you will notice regional differences in the way people ease into the experience. I've been real happy with the men coming out of Atlanta. I don't know what they put in the water out there but the gents from Atlanta have it all, intelligence, sex appeal, spunk and a wild sense of humor and boy are they great lovers and definitely more open minded, "whatever happens, this is an amusement park" thinking. The New Yorkers are also great. The Boston clients are a strange crowd but they still rank as my favorite. And in SF, I had one guy who had been seeing escorts for years and never did anything erotic claiming that the girls in SF were more safety conscious. The poor guy said they all told him holding hands was the only thing that was permitted. My experiences in LA have been great but within the the last year, the scene has changed to the point where you do have to screen like you are looking for a home remodeler. What have you done. Who have you done. I feel sorry for the guys but what can ya do.

I'd be 10x as apt to hop on a plane and take all short notice, unverifieds in a city like Beantown. I wouldn't think twice. Just 5 star hotel it and I have all business clientele mid-day. LA is a jungle. You've got everything from meth freaks to scam artists to normal, average guys and it's hard to tell who's who because everyone is tan, fit and good looking. And with the economy in the toilet, some of the calls we get are from guys trying to work a scam. I once had a guy lift my car keys. Luckily, my car was in another state.

But I feel ya on the screening wrath.

In certain situations it is approritate to negotiate...  I love this website where everyone posts their rates upfront which are all inclusive.  In this scenerio I agree that negotiation is tacky and inappropriate.   HOWEVER, I go to Vegas on occasion, and we booze and gamble there..  Most of the major casinos have a "hooker bar" ...Example..last time we were in Vegas we were in Harrah's on the strip...we suspected that when you walk in the main door the first bar on your left is the hooker bar... This was confirmed by asking the our dealer (who was fairly cool, and was pointing out some regulars for us)  As tourists from Chicago, we know what the going rate at home is between 150-400 an hour...(basically based on the appearance of the girl, with extras based on level of service, what have you)

I approach a girl who was fairly average (and clearly in the middle range of this group in looks) and after some discussion...the quoted hourly price is $1000.  After expressing some shock, I told her that that was out of my budget (which was true). I proceeded to start telling the buddy I was with the quoted price when another girl approched us with a similar $1000 offer... We both declined this invitation.. We stood there laughing at ourselves thinking that we must really be out of touch with the present rate structure or maybe the rates are just crazy high in Vegas..during this conversation..girl number one walks up to us and has a new lower hourly rate of $500.....do I have $500 dollars?..yes.. do I still think the rate is too high...yes

I told the girl that the prevailing wage was around $250-$300 and hour and I would pay  $300.  I didn't poor mouth the ecomony or the tough times..  She agreed and we had a fine time.  During the down time I asked about the $1000 demand..she said guys that are drunk, or just won big, or are inherently rich pay the grand without flinching, but about 90% of the time she drops her price to $300-$500. She candidly admitted that this practice goes on all the time in Vegas.

This is a free market...if someone won't pay you what you ask...don't date them...If they whine and you dont like it..dont talk to them....

Ironically, when we came back down from the room.. girl number two was still there, where she could have made a quick $300 in the last hour with my buddy.