Today, I had a very nice conversation with a classy gentleman. He stated that he wanted to know if I was married or single because he said according to the old testament it wasn't ok to see another man's woman. He also said that he was married.

I don't know much about the Jewish faith. Can someone please clarify why there is a double standard.

HB

in olden times, if a woman's hubby died she had to marry his brother, but if the wife died there was not a corresponding obligation for the widower to marry her sis.

The sort of nonsense you describe is seen only in orthodox Jews, which constitute a small minority of the Jewish population in the U.S. Surely, no reform Jew would expouse that sort of hypocrisy.

There is a saying about Jews that is relevant here: If you have two Jews in a room, you have three opinions. Nothing that any orthodox Jew has to say would influence me (as a reform Jew) in the slightest.

God watches over ALL people and all who are kind of heart and sincere whether or not they practice any religion, enter his kingdom. This gives me great comfort as my late son never had formal religious training yet he was a genuine, gregarious, sincere, courageous, outrageous, magananmous, friendly, worldly, and intense (like pops) kind young adult.


I was raised a Reform Jew but my grandfather and his sons also attended Shul. I chose not to be Bar Mitzvah. My faith has grown somewhat stronger as I've aged. Tragedies have changed my outlook greatly.

What I think you are describing is called adultery. It is sin under both religions. It is this gentleman that is a hyprocrite. Though you will find that most religions treat women as second class citizens. Judiasism is no different. Though I would agree with the person that posted that reform and conservative jews tend to take a more modern and liberating view of women. It is not uncommon to find women Rabbi's(equivalent of priests) in reform synagogues(equivalent of church).

Here is some other interesting information. Judiasism takes a much more practical approach to human behavior then Catholicism.
Judiacism considers sex normal and healthy unlike Catholicism which makes it seem more dirty and all about procreation. Judiaism sees sex as something that is pleasurable that God gave us to enjoy..

Here is another example of differences: If you were in a desert with a friend and there was only enough water for one of you to make it to the city, the Catholic religion would preach that you should give the water to your friend to survive.

Talmudic law(Jewish ) would tell you that it is okay to keep the water for yourself. It is human nature to want to survive and you would not be under obligation or need to feel guilty for doing this.

I don't want to portray Judiciasm as an easy going religion.There are more restrictions and rules than I can mention
but I found some of these anadodetes which have been around for over two thousand years interesting..

Unlike some of the other people, I will respond without passing judgment on the individual.  Judaism is a religion based upon laws.  Laws were handed to Jews in the "Old Testament".  These laws were refined by panels of Rabbi's who may pose restrictions in addition to those which are set forth in the text.  For example, on the holiday of Yom Kippur, the written law prohibits one from eating a meal.  The Rabbi's placed further restrictions which are that one may not consume any food or beverage.

The written law does not prohobit a man from having more than one wife, however it does prohibit a man from engaging in sex with a woman married to someone else.  Therefore, a man can have sex with another woman without violating the written law against adultery, even if he is married, so long as the woman is not married.

What is the difference between the Old Testament and Talmud, while we are on the subject?

Because like virtually all religions, Judiasm was concocted by men. The Old Testament is replete with these ridiculous admonitions. Much better to convert to atheism like I did long ago and not worry about such nonsense or inflict it others.

I beg to differ with your contention that only Orthodox Jews are subject to the hypocrisy you describe. I have known many Jews of various religious beliefs who have ascribed to, in some instances, incredibly misogynist views. Beware of labels. They can often mask prejudice.

I think the later is published by Barnes & Noble.

The Old Testament contains the 5 books of Moses (the Torah) as well as other books written before the Common Era (BCE is what religious Jews call the era before Christ).  The Talmud, written many years after biblical times is the study of the Torah.  Typically, a Talmud tract has, in the middle of the page, a single passage or sentence from the Torah.  Surrounding this passage (in miniscule print) is commentary from the prominent rabbis of the time, interpreting the literal and hidden meanings of that passage.  As the old joke says, if you ask 2 rabbis the same question, you'll get 4 responses.  This is Talmudic study:  the multiple interpretations of the exact same passage as explained, and re-explained, by a host of "experts".  The study of Talmud by the Orthodox (and most rabbis regardless of affiliation) is the basis for the interpretation of the meaning of the Torah, as well as the 613 laws that govern a devout Jewish male, and the 1 that governs a devout Jewish woman.

It is said that anyone who masters the complexities and logic of the study of Talmud is capable of mastering any intellectual task.  I tried doing this once in English and rather quickly had to concede defeat.  I can't imagine it in Hebrew, a second language for most Jewish people, especially in the USA.

-- Modified on 11/22/2002 5:22:07 AM

-- Modified on 11/22/2002 5:26:48 AM

I disagree. I believe that Judiasm has become more tolerant and flexible with the times. In fact it was due to the fact that it was so inflexible, which allowed Christianity to take hold...

The majority of practicing jews do not subscribe to orthodoxy.
In fact it is rather ironic that the greatest threat to Judiasm today is not persecution and anti-semticism, but rather the fact that it has been accepted and melted in to American society.

The lack of structure and rituals afforded by reform and conservatism, the ability to blend into our society, has caused a high rate of intermarriage with each generation losing its identification with the religion.

If you asked the majority of what it means to be a Jew today, I am not sure the majority could tell you, other then Jews do not believe that the messiah has come yet. They don't recognize Christ as the messiah.

It is interesting that acceptance and participation in American Society is accomplishing what Hitler was unable to do...

Im Just a Shickza...

Why there is a debate on religious beliefs in this forum is a different question, nonetheless, I feel compelled to dispute the contention that women are "second" class in Judaism.  In reality, women are given the most vital role, which is to make the home.  Moreover, women are not obligated to pray as men are because women are considered to be at a higher spiritual level.  Men are obligated to pray and to adhere to more laws because it is men who are second class and must use prayer to elevate themselves to the level of women.

In Judaism, women are revered.  In a traditional Jewish home, the husband sings a song of praise to his wife before the Sabbath.

I also take exception to the label of "Orthodox" Judaism.  There is no such thing, there is only Judaism.  Those who have chosen not to practice Judaism have created labels (Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanistic) in order to validate their decision not to practice.  Finally, just because someone is Jewish does not necessarily mean that he practices Judaism.

Oh screw you, you nazi basterd... (just kidding)

I disagree with you entirely. There were different movements(IE. sects)in Judiasm just as there are in Christianity. Judiasm is not just Judiasm. In fact there is a great ideological war going on within Israel itself over this matter. Just try emigrating to Israel. The so called religious right of the Knesset does not want people who try to emmigrate to be recognized as Jews unless they are Orthodox. I think you are splitting hairs with your definition. And as far as your interpretation of women as a different class, nice try but window dressing that masks what is a very old view of women's roles. Obviously women were treated equal in the old testamant since men had more than one wife.
In orthodox sects, women are made to sit in the back seperate from their husbands. Another practice that defy's logic.
And I would like to see how many women rabbi's you can find in the orthodox sect. For that matter, how about girls that are Bat Miztvahed. By today's standards of equality there is a world of difference in how women are treated and viewed depending on which sect you belong to...

Sorry but you are way out of line... I consider myself a conservative Jew. That is how I identify myself. There are labels because the rabbi's who formed these sects started them.
You are making a judgement based on your own personal beliefs and then doing the labeling yourself by negating anyone who differs from you.

all religions suck. given that judaism is the oldest of the popular religion, jewish men suck best....

Actually, the old testament rule was that if a man died with no surviving sons his brother was required to marry a surviving wife and care for her and her family as his own.  The first son of such a union would take the name of the first (deceased) husband and inherit any of his wealth.

At the time, women generally had no way of earning a living for themselves, so being a widow with no children and no husband was a major catstrophe.  The law was designed to avoid a situation in which a widow would be forced to work as a prostitute in order to support herself and her family.  The husband's family effectively became a life insurance policy for her.

Many other cultures at the time had similar rules to protect and care for widows.  While it may seem archaic and ridiculous to us by today's standards, it made a good deal of sense in the context of a completely male-dominated society.

I think the guy asking about this was being a hypocrite.  No branch of Judaism today accepts polygamy of any sort.  A married person (of either sex) having sex outside of the marriage is considered to have committed a sin.  The guy may be soothing his conscience by telling himself that the old testament permits a man to have sexual relationships with more than one woman, so long as the women are not married to anybody else, but virtually all interpretations of Jewish law since the middle ages have prohibited this.  (Jewish law is somewhat silent on the subject of unmarried people having sex with each other.  Unlike Christianity, there is no concept of "original sin" and sex itself is not considered inherently sinful.)

MisterG

I have heard, but don't recall in what book it would be found (I am somewhere between Reform and Conservative)that there really is no pre-marital sex in Judaism.  Once a man and a woman have sexual intercourse, they are considered married.  

Some other interesting info --> http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/sex_sexuality/Sex_TO_Judaism_Sexuality_1.htm .  I especially want to stress paragraphs 3 and 6 in this reference.


-Hoot.





-- Modified on 11/24/2002 11:04:50 AM

The purpose of this was the failing of the lustful appetites of men.  The women were considered a distraction to prayer and thus they were isolated.  Although I DON'T agree with this practice, the women were not separated because of a "2nd class" consideration.

There were plenty of things women could not do, but just to say they were 2nd class, is simplistic.  They were also released from various duties associated with men since they were considered to be on a higher spiritual plain.  To just say "women can't do xxx and zzzz" belies the more complicated underpinnings of the religion.

-Hoot.


-- Modified on 11/24/2002 11:11:27 AM

When Hitler came from us, he did not distinguish between level of observance.  We will all survive or we will all perish.

The Nuremburg Purity Laws --> http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/nlaw.htm

I don't think you will find any mention in the above purity laws concerning observance.

-Hoot.

-- Modified on 11/24/2002 11:43:12 AM

There was an interesting NOVA on PBS recently, in which scientists tested for the presence of genetic markers that were found throughout all "Cohanim", the Jewish priest class. They were also able to backdate the genetic markers to a mutation some 3,000 years ago, which approximates the rise of Judaism. This finding confirmed strong ethnic and religious ties, and indicate that the above disputes between reform, conservatives and orthodox are indeed "all in the family".

I would tend to argue that Judaism is a bit more civilized than most religions. For example, when Christians have a theological dispute (i.e., Reformation), they tend to have religious wars. When Jews argue, such as illustrated above, they just argue.

There was one point in my life in which I would have agreed with that statement 100%.

As a minority group, however, I just don't think we had enough power for long enough to do much harm.  Last week's parsha had an interesting story of needless slaughter:

Dinah is raped by Shechem, the son of Hamor the Hivite, chief of the country. Jacob's sons Simeon and Levi take revenge by murdering all the males of Shechem, and Jacob's other sons join them in plundering the city. (Genesis 34:1-31)

I don't see that murdering all the males in the city was just retribution.

-Hoot.

Yes but this week it was Esau and his story.  Being jewish is special and only somebody who is a Jew can understand that point. I am proud to be a Reform Jew.

I would never argue with your pride in being Jewish.  I am also Jewish, albeit more Conservative than Reform, and am proud of our heritage.

My point was that perhaps Jews haven't done as much physical damage and hateful acts as have non-Jews (the Inquisition, Expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492, Expulsion of Jews from England in 1290, The Holocaust, The 6 Day War, and on-and-on) owing to our not having such great numbers as the non-Jews.

-Hoot.