Just curious, what percentage of your encounters are BB? How many reviews are in the database? I want to know how many of them were BBFS. Before you start admonishing me, some of the providers who provided me with this service are regulars in chat and the boards. So let's not be hypocritical. Let's not kid ourselves, it does happen.
 
 By my count, 20%. Usually, I've been told that I am the only one, so don't tell. Yeah, sure. I want to get a feel for the odds that I'm playing against.

This is a touchy subject. We all know it is not safe and we all know it is a total no no, but I bet you are right. It happens way more often than we would like to admit. I've been offered it twice out of maybe 15 different women. So 20% maybe about right.

As you see I am using my alias, yes i'm a hypocrite too.

The subject of whether guys asked for BBFS was brought up on this board last summer.  I posted my thoughts on the topic at that time.  I have copied my original comments that I made on that subject below.

"I've had 3 different ladies give me BBFS, and basically without any of them even asking ME beforehand if I wanted it.  Things were going along, and the women involved didn't make an attempt to stop for protection.  To preclude my comments, here's some preliminary info on these experiences:

A)  All 3 instances have occurred since 1998.  These weren't 1970's or early 1980's circumstances, to put a time reference on it.

B)  In all 3 instances, I was in control of whether or not to go through with it.

C)  In 2 instances, I did ask the lady about protection once it occurred to me we were about to have sex without it.  Both times after asking, the lady was willing to use protection.  I chose not to.  I can't remember if I asked the third lady about protection.

D)  In all 3 instances, it was the first time I had been with that woman.

E)  In 2 instances, it went to completion.

The very first time it happened, the lady I was with had been giving me a BBBJ.  She stopped and climbed towards me.  Without even grabbing hold of it, she slid down on top of me.  This happened in about 5 seconds, and to this day for me has been the easiest and quickest penetration I have ever experienced.  When it happened, I was shocked, not because of the lack of protection, but how quickly it occurred.  I have to admit it felt great; however I did ask her about protection.  In the moment, I wasn't thinking about disease, but about potential pregnancy.  She told me that wasn't an issue, because she previously had some medical problem (not cancer) which required an hysterectomy.

Up to that point, I had bareback sex only once in my life, and it was nearly 10 years before this encounter.  It was with the only woman I have had "free" sex with in my entire life, and I did not cum inside her.  (It was also the first time I had ever had sex period, and you can imagine my jitters and subsequent equipment difficulties.)  The thought of the opportunity to cum inside a woman uncovered for the first time really aroused me when the BBFS started with the escort I was with, and since she had initiated it and had no problems with doing it, I suddenly didn't, either.  At the end of the evening, I was a BBFSTC virgin no more.  I think most men might've went through with it as well, if they would've seen the woman I was with that night.

There was no real drama for me with the other two women.

As I stated in the subject header, I have never asked for BBFS, and in general, do not ask for anything specifically.  I do everything possible to respect the boundaries of the woman I'm with, and I definitely don't try to force an issue or demand something she isn't willing to offer.  I do often ask ladies I see for the first time what things might be permissable, but in a cautious way, and not specifically asking them to do it. (EX:  "Do you kiss?", not "Can we kiss?").  I've found that inquiring that way is quite benefitting, because if the lady does answer "Yes" to "Do you . . .?", it pretty much breaks the ice for it to happen, and it usually happens immediately after the inquiry is made.

I did ask a lady who I had seen several times to accommodate a particular request for me, but I approached the topic the same way as indicated above ("Do you ...?"), and after she indicated she had done it, I did ask her if we could do it the next time we met, and she said "Yes".  She was true to her word, and it wasn't BBFS.  I will ask a lady if she would like me to do something in particular for her, but in general, I won't ask them to do a particular service for me.  Again, the boundaries of the lady are paramount for me to respect.

To close my long-winded commentary, I haven't asked and won't ask for BBFS, and would be very cautious is potentially asking for other services, if I even asked at all.  With BBFS in particular, though, I most likely would not refuse it if the lady offered it or initiated it with me first.  I'm quite sure I'm in the minority and going against the grain here, but it doesn't trouble me as much as it does the majority of posters on this thread.  I am aware of the risks involved, and I hardly think I'm "invincible".  I'm almost 40 years old, and my sexual history with women is rather miniscule when compared to others my age.  I posted some of this before, but I've never had a girlfriend or significant other, have only had "free" sex once, and don't see escorts on any regular basis or schedule.  I don't ever expect to have a regular, monogamous sex life where the risks involved with unprotected sex decrease somewhat.  BBFS has been the exception and not the rule in my case.  I definitely don't look for BBFS, but with my limited sexual experience and the unlikelihood of love, romance, or normal and/or regular sex ever entering my life, an isolated BBFS encounter isn't so bad."

END OF QUOTED POST

My views on the subject and detailed circumstances have not changed since I originally posted the above comments on 7/6/2004.

No hypocrisy here.

KCSHYGUY

I can understand where you are coming from; similar set of personal experiences but i'm just about to turn 30 vrs in my 40s.  As much as my only civie BB experience was great, I've never done BBFS in the hobby and wouldn't.  I see how in the heat of the momenet it could happen though but I'm parnoid enough about STDs, even with DATY and BBBJ, I would flipout if she hopped on FS.  But I guess I'll voice my opinion in 10 more years....I'm still trying/hoping for a turely great civial relationship though (what are your reasons for a hobby only lifestyle if you don't mind the question)

I would just keep thinking, OMG, when did she last do this? Does she have a death wish? What all can I get from her, let's see...Herpes, Warts...aww jeeze, let's just stop right there, can we? There's a hell of a list, but as far as I'm concerned, it can stop after those two.

Lemmie ask you something: Can you maintain wood if you're wondering how soon you could test positive for warts or herpes? This is not even about physical comfort any more. It's so about mental comfort.

That there are so many guys who seem to think a BBFS session is the cat's meow, is reason enough for me to disallow it.

This is ghetto risk. It's never-made-it-out-of-high-school risk. It's nothing-to-lose risk.

Why don't we just query the next woman we have sex with, and see what she thinks.

Not sure if that rule is written or unwritten.

The DC board had a very revealing discussion on this topic not
too long ago.  It started with someone pointing out a BBFS
review.  The review was subsequently removed.  Search on BBFS.

-- Modified on 3/19/2005 8:47:09 PM

These things are on my mind enough with CFS.  So much so, I doubt I'll hobby much if ever again.  But, I guess, I'll never say never.

I think the 20% is probably about right.  I've been with about 10 providers this year - with one well reviewed provider, after a BBBJTC, we were going covered and she told me I could uncover if the cover made it bad for me (I declined).  By the way she said it, I got the feeling she made the offer maybe even more than occassionally.  Other than that 5 seconds, she was fantastic, but I won't return because the offer terrified me.  Another well reviewed provider had covers sitting out when I got there, told me she didn't give BBBJ but would for me because she was late and because didn't like the covers she had (they were out of the ones she liked).  When I was ready, she got ready to straddle me CG w/o stopping to cover, and I asked her about it, and she said it was ok, she didn't like the brand she had and was ok going uncovered with me.  I told her I brought my own (I always do in case of an emergency) and she sort of cooled on me.  Too bad we were having a really good session up to that point.  She was a younger provider and frankly I think she didn't appreciate the risk involved, and I won't return to her either.

-- Modified on 3/20/2005 4:30:36 AM

I'm NOT advocating BBFS and don't participate in it, however, this subject always amuses me.  People are terrified of uncovered FS yet most of the STDs they worry about (Herpes, gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, NGU, hepatitis, warts) can be transmitted with BJs, DATY, and DATO not to mention some that are transmitted with DFK!  A condom protects only a small part of the body (at least for most of us) - lots of skin remains exposed.

The big concern with BBFS is HIV but that is extremely rare in the general population and likely to only be transmitted if there is bleeding and/or an abrasion or a tear which is the reason it is more common with anal sex.  Not only that, but a fair number of people like to play when Aunt Flo is present which results in direct exposure to blood products. If you're worried about HIV then you should stay away during this part of the month.  And you should avoid those populations that are at higher risk for HIV.

Finally, those who participate in this hobby are extremely promiscuous - especially providers who have hundreds or thousands of partners a year. It is statistically likely that they will come in contact with STDs on many occasions and likely contract one or more.  Many are easily treated (bacterial infections) and some are not obvious (internal warts, some other viruses). The point is that everything we do has risks. Be aware of them and play safe but don't live in a dream world.

-- Modified on 3/20/2005 7:00:15 AM

Tried to get me to go bareback.  About 50% of the guys try some form of "let me rub it against you"

No way in the world I'd EVER consent to BBFS, or any form of rubbing a BB rod against any part of my Bare labia, clit, vulva, or anus.  PERIOD.

NO WAY FOR NOTHING EVER.

Hell, I make my new civilian boyfriends go for six months and two testings before they go BB..

Maybe that's why I never get civilian boyfriends?

(BBBJ, no problem, I have alot of faith in digestive juices, and I test ALOT.)

The TRUTH.

xo
Elise

Some of us "providers" only have 50 encounters a year, use female condoms, and never would have an encounter where there was a risk factor that we were aware of (aunt flo, abrasion, tear, sore throat, etc.)

Yeah, daty, dato, and dfk CAN spread germs, but salivary juices are great, so is listerine and not brushing before or after.

I test often, as you know. VERY often for the number of encounters that I have, so maybe I'm just stupid or lucky...

I think if one does a good visual check and is ALWAYS careful you really aren't being a super careful DOC to imply that going BB is OK, either when being promiscuous or not... as long as one is not monogamous.

My point being, only in disease-free monogamy would one be safe to go BB, and that's what health care professionals should promote, death being a small option otherwise.

Sure, you might be ok, but you also might not.

xo
Elise

You misread my post. I was not implying that BB is OK nor was I condoning it.  I'm just stating that it is delusional to think that the other practices have only minimal risk compared to BBFS.

Using a female condom makes you several standard deviations off the norm - I doubt many of the others use them but I could be wrong.  I suspect having only 50 encounters a year is also unusual for most of the providers on this board.

Maybe you are super careful but others are not. Just a few weeks ago people were posting about whether or not they should have encounters with active cold sores some not realizing that this is herpes.

Testing is great - I get tested every six months. But testing does not test for everything and it only gives results for a specific moment in time. There is no routine reliable blood test for Herpes, warts, chlamydia, molluscum, etc.  In fact, you could get tested at a time you had active Herpes with open lesions and the routine blood tests would be negative.  Furthermore, the majority of the adult population has antibodies for herpes that means they have been exposed or had actual clinical manifestations in the past.  Many people don't even know when they are shedding virus and many have no symptoms.

The only point I was trying to make is not to believe that FS is a horrible risk while the other practices are relatively safe.  They all have risks that are not insignificant.  Be informed and make safe choices.

...unprotected oral sex is so much more intense!  Only HIV-- which is a threat to your life, could make protected intercourse this popular.  And it's only because providers themselves enforce that discipline.  Covered intercourse is better than no intercourse at all.  

Fact is, even after an STD scare, I've tried to imagine myself imposing a cover on a BBBJ.  I've concluded that I'd find it easier to chew my arm off.      

So, unfortunately, once an STD comes around that is as damaging, then I'll be able to demand a cover.  

-- Modified on 3/20/2005 11:33:34 AM

I'm a Chicago participant, and I've seen two recent reviews that mention BBFS.  Interestingly, they were from the same reviewer.

We just gave each other hot BB oral, and it was time to fuck.  My cock got within a foot of her pussy-- but she wasn't reaching for the cover.  

I backed off and prompted her for it.  Then she did it, and put it on me.  

So far, that's the only time I thought I was being offered BB.

I do not go bareback, but when I read some of the posts by guys that speak of 30 minute DATY sessions and of pounding their uncovered fingers and even fists into a lady's vagina, I wonder.
I am circumspect about doing DATY, I pay close attention to the woman that I am with. I avoid inserting my fingers into a woman's vagina because my uncovered nails can cut here vaginal walls.
I agree with you assessment on condoms Doc, to often they slip down during the act and unless they guy is paying attention and pull them back up, most of the penis is uncovered. And I agree that the observations that you made do not advocate that hobbyists of providers not use condoms.
Lastly. Most of the hobbyists that post on boards or do reviews, rip ladies that insist upon using a condom for everything, such ladies do not do well financially, as a matter of fact.

“Only HIV-- which is a threat to your life, could make protected intercourse this popular.”

I agree and I think this where the Doc reasoning goes wrong.  The various STD’s have different levels of health detriment, social consequence, life style changes and curability.  In this hobby it may not be possible to avoid getting a STDs even when protection is used but if there is one to try to be avoided, its HIV. Fortunately covered FS and Greek reduce the risk of catching HIV.  Since the HIV risk from oral sex is very much less then from FS and Greek the magnitude of HIV risk reduction by using protection from using a cover is also less.  

I've documented bits & pieces of this in various posts on the board.  Basically, it's the fact that women have had ZERO interest in me; sexually, romantically, in friendship, or socially.  I was ridiculed & mentally abused by my peers when I was in school (particularly girls).  I've made attempts to get women to like me, but to no avail.  I had a particularly emotional & psychologically crushing experience in college with a girl from which I've never fully recovered.  (It's pushing 20 years now.)  Basically, nothing I've ever tried, said, or done to get a woman to like me has worked, so I gave up about nine years ago, which was the last time I had something that could remotely be considered an actual "date".  I just got fed up with the emotional & psychological abuse I received in my attempts to find love/romance/girlfriend, etc.  I'm unable to get "free" sex, so I see escorts when it's possible for me to do so, because I would never get sex again if I didn't.

At some point, I'm considering posting a more detailed post describing what my experience has been like, hoping perhaps to get some perspective on how people (especially women) perceive or respond to someone such as myself with these social difficulties, which has affected me for nearly 30 years.  With that, it should be pretty obvious why I'm using the handle you see here.  No hypocrisy or aliases for me.

You aren't supposed to brush your teeth before or after?  When are you supposed to brush then?

{Hell, I make my new civilian boyfriends go for six months and two testings before they go BB..

Maybe that's why I never get civilian boyfriends?




Well, I make any civilian girlfriends (recently, unfortunately, hypothetical) do the same.


Maybe you are looking at the wrong civilian guys?



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

The concern with brushing or flossing immediately before a session is that you may cause your gums to bleed which theoretically could increase the risk of organisms entering your body.  I don't think there is any proof of this, however, you could instead use a quality mouthwash if you are concerned or you could just brush less aggressively.  If your gums bleed every time you brush, you likely have periodontal disease.