Were do you draw the line for your time? I recently had an experience that has baffeled me and I need some clarification.
During the Yule season, my previous ATF invited me to spend time with her decorating a Xmas tree at her incall location. The invitation was extended in the following email extract, "I want to decorate a tree with you,I think that would be nice to share with you,what do you think?" This was a lady that I respected and saw on a weekly basis. I thought that we were close and when I received the invite, I was elated. Needless to say, I readily accepted and rearranged my schedule to spend the time with her.
We spent 5 hours buying ornaments and lights (which I paid for), eating lunch (again I paid), taking her car to the tire dealer and decorating the tree. We had a very enjoyable time. Afterwards, she proceeded to inform me that I owed her for 5 hours of her time. I was dumbfounded. She invited me and although I enjoyed her company, I would much rather have spent my money on other things. I paid for the time and I no longer see her.
So, back to my question, Were do you draw the line for your time. Since she invited me, I assumed that the clock wasn't running. If she invited me to her house for dinner, would I be expected to pay for her time? How about the time she spent preparing the meal? I understand that if I invited her to dinner, I would pay for the time, but she invited me. I felt like a fool, expecially after giving her a very expensive Xmas present while decorating the tree.
Please help me understand. Am I missing something?
I think I would have done the same thing I'd do in a similar business situation, and that is give her the choice. Rather than hitting the exit with bad feelings that will result in you not seeing her again, just put all the cards on the table.
"Ooops, I misunderstood your invitation as being off the clock. We're at a crossroads here, and I need to know if this was just a misunderstanding on your part as well or if I got roped into something here. If it's just a misunderstanding, I'll be on my way (with the money in my pocket) and I'll see you next week as usual. If it's not, then I'll settle up for the 5 hours and you'll not hear from me again."
Yes, it's an ultimatum, which are almost always uncomfortable, but it can be worded in a non-confrontational way that puts your feelings right out in the open and lets her decide if she wants to pursue her current course or not.
You're seeing her weekly, surely she can do the math and see that she would be better off keeping things cool--52 visits this year vs. 5 hours now. If you lay the choice on the table then either way you know right where you stand. The disparity between the two alternatives for her is so stark that her answer will immediately reveal her true intentions.
that you were required to do so. In fact, it seems like a delicate issue. If she means it to be off the clock she could be insulted by you directly asking the question.
I was recently asked to lunch by a provider. She was someone I had exchanged e-mail with but never had seen as a client (and have no intentions of seeing as a client simply because there is no way that I can afford her rates). A lovely lady and if I were rich... Sigh!
Like you I assumed that since she asked me that it would be off the clock and I didn't ask. Unlike your provider she meant it to be off the clock so there was no misunderstanding and no embarrasment.
My personal rule would be that if she invites me it is off the clock unless she makes it clear when she invites me that it is on the clock and if I invite her it is on the clock unless I make it clear when I invite her that the invitation is for time off the clock.
In short your stated behavior sounds both reasonable and correct to me. I don't know if I would have paid her for the five hours of time. I am glad that I have never been faced with having to make that decision. (Actually, if I wasn't planning on paying I doubt that I would have the cash on me to pay for 5 hours of her time. I don't normally walk around with that kind of money in my wallet. I do carry an extra $300 with me on appointments just in case my date springs a friend on me -- that has happened but we had discussed the possiblity in advance so it wasn't a total surprise.)
Mathesar
-- Modified on 2/5/2004 2:06:39 AM
actually, I don't think it would have realistic to suggest that he ask...because on the flip side, it might have insulted her. She really should have let him know. I recently saw a provider and she said that she hadn't seen the town and suggested several amusement parks, points of interest for me to take her to...but, I didn't go for it for precisely this scenario. Unlike the 5 hours here, I probably would have been out for 12 hours and no way am I going to pay a girl to walk around with me and talk. I get plenty enough on regular dates with non-providers.
I think she completley abused you as a client and invited you under false pretenses. I have been invited to lunch with a few providers. I paid for lunch and if we went back to enjoy each other I paid for their time, BUT there is no way in Hell a provider would invite me over to do all this B.S. and then expect me to pay! I may as well stay home with my S.O. if I need that kind of crap. If I knew at that point I was not going to see her again because of this stunt I would have told her to Go F*** herself and try and collect.
So many things within all of the posts to respond to but let me just address one.
I think the idea of giving her an option to be paid for the 5 hours and lose you as a client vs. letting it slide and see you on an ongoing basis is to imagine that she sees you as anything but the "short" ends to a mean. At the point where she decided to rip you for 5 hours she knew she'd never see you again but decided long before you got together that she needed the money moreso then you did. Further more it was a totally passive-aggressive action motivated most likely for any number of reasons i.e. feeling that her genuine feelings for you were worth so much more then the hourly rate she was charging. So in a weird way, the whole incident may have been prompted by the fact that you have gotten under her skin more then you could ever have imagined. You know the saying, "You always hurt the one you love". Not that there might be some other reason. This is just the reason I've been ripped or at least the reason I choose to believe. At any rate, she didn't run down a list to find a mark and if she did, it was a very short list.
Regarding my theory about getting under her skin; I think at the point where the provider feels herself being lost in the exchange equation regarding emotions, one way to get that feeling of control and power back is to act out with regards to money. Something I've lived with and through so for what it's worth, my humble but honest opinion.
-- Modified on 2/5/2004 6:37:06 AM
-- Modified on 2/5/2004 6:37:33 AM
I agree with you completely. We had become very close and I think this scared her, so to push me away or to put me in my place, she placed a price on our time together knowing that she would never see me again. I honestly feel that she did this because she was becoming attached to me, but I will never know. She was a wonderful lady and I miss her dearly. Now I wish her all the best but at the time my feelings were completely different.
I'm amazed at the way the ladies are able to keep their emotions reined in, especially with regulars. For the lady in question, I always brought her a present when we had a dates, usually flowers. Occasionally, she would call before our rendezvou and ask me to come early and have lunch with her, which I would do. She didn't charge for the time at lunch so when she hit me with the 5 hours, I was completely blown away.
I agree with LOVE STINKS.
The very idea makes the hair on the back of my neck stand
on end.
After you,as a gentleman,payed for EVERYTHING(as I and alot
of us would have done the same), she still hit you up for
5 hours worth of time? HELL NO!!! after I had got over the shock
and picked my jaw up off the floor,I would've reached in my
pocket and pulled out the shiniest PENNY I had,pitched it
at her and told her that was the last CENT she would ever get out of me.(WHEW long sentence)
Oh,and of course,the old "GO F--K YOURSELF" as I was storming
out the door.
Obviously,this thread struck a nerve with me.
How much was her hourly rate x5?
Did ya'll(yes Im a Texan)have any sex at ALL?
Pardon me while I go pat some cold water on my face to cool off.
Yes,I plan on taking a chill pill also.
I have to admit this situation could have been resolved if you had asked beforehand. If you guys are ever confused by a free date or a business exchange, then ask. After all, this is a business and no one should be offended. If you would have asked before you spent the five hours with her, you could have saved yourself time, money and a lot of heartache. I don't want you to think that I am condoning her behavior, but I was not there to see everything, nor do I know the facts from her perspective. Personally, and I could be wrong, I think she lead you on. I hope this helps you.
Hugs,
Ciara
Sp ... I don't think you misunderstood at all
Unless there's more that you didn't mention. But assuming that's not the case, you just got hooked up with a crass, greedy and unprincipled bitch.
Using hindsight and in the future, ALWAYS ask the girl if it's on the clock or off. They don't get offeneded (we've covered this a lot lately) and they can answer one way or the other.
As a general rule, when you give a woman money it's up to you to see that she EARNS that money. Basking in the radience of the glow that is her ... isn't it!
How awful. But I must chide you for not clarifying the situation before you went over. That was a royal waste of your time and money. Lesson learned?
between what could have (although I'm really doubting it) been a misunderstanding, and her real line of thinking, or motive.
I'm inclined to agree with Megapig, and love what Omegazap said.
If you get a sense that she was playing you, manipulating you and that she had that motive all along, I wouldn't WANT to see her again regardless of whether you paid her or not.
What is your gut feeling? That she knew exactly what she was doing?
TRUST is a huge factor in our relationships, and the fact that she has raised this kind of doubt, is already a big trust faux pas. Good riddance.
It's one thing to schedule an appointment, but she invited you! To me that sounds like a "civilian" date - meaning, totally off the clock.
I am sorry you had to go through that!! I wouldn't see her again either if I were in your shoes.
Hugs,
Vanessa Sue
There is simply no excuse for this. You were foolish to pay her for FIVE hours. At MOST, I could see giving her ONE hour's pay to apologize for the misunderstanding, but she was clearly kissing you off for good, so even THAT is unwarranted.
Frankly, she needs to be outed for that kind of crap.
Maybe she was getting ready to retire and used you for a severance package?