Just wondering how many of you guys hobbying are married.  Do you guys consider it cheating since it is purely to satisfy sexual needs?

You don't even have to be married. Hobbying if you have an SO or GF, it is still cheating.

Unless your wife, SO, GF consents than it is more of an open relationship.

If a couple has an open marriage and/or they attend swing parties "cheating" might be defined as developing feelings or a relationship with an otherwise casual sex partner. On the other extreme some consider their SO simply reading Playboy/Playgirl an act of infidelity.

 Suffice to say the vast majority of women take it as betrayal and infidelity when their SO gets sexual gratification from another female; no matter how purely physical the reasons are for the tryst.

Are you daft? Maybe the married guys (which from what I read is a large percentage of the guys on TER) can ask their wives what they think. I am sure they will understand and be OK with it. Of course its cheating and personally not something I would do, but every person has to make their own decisions and live with them. I personally think that they should tell their wives that after the marriage when they stopped giving BJs and gained weight that they are not attracted to them anymore and want a divorce so they can fornicate with prostitutes with a clean conscience.

My wife and I discussed this very issue when Spitzer was caught.  I told my wife it was no big deal.   She disagreed, and we left it at that.

Uhhhhhh. Yea.

Well from the SO's standpoint she certainly thinks so. Like Kornlover, the subject came up during the Spitzer incident. I would not exactly call it a discussion as the SO merely stated "you can go pound sand if you ever do anything like that". No doubt about that message. As for my answer, no not really. I was trying to put together a more detailed explanation of why - but the words just aren't coming this morning....

C_K

which is the reason (the only reason) I didn't hobby when I was married. I've been making up for lost time ever since. lol

However the married guys justify it, IMO is their own business, I don't plan on joining the morality police, but it is cheating.

Several years ago, my wife came home from the doctor. We both knew this day was coming for a long time. She half-jokingly said to me, "The doctor says you're going to have to get a girlfriend." We talked and joked about it, and I said that a girlfriend was out of the question, but an occasional "rental" might be just the thing. Although her reaction was, "Just don't tell me about it", deep down I know that's not really the way she feels. I went 3-1/2 years before I finally called my first lady. I'm reasonably sure that she does know what I do when I travel, but neither of us has ever brought it up. Is it cheating? Yes, I suppose it is.

Recovering what you have been cheated out of!

My wife closed up shop TOTALLY 3 years ago...I consider THAT cheating!  Times being what they are, no way to unload her without ending up living under a bridge.....So I am merely picking up on what I have been cheated out of!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!

-- Modified on 6/9/2008 8:48:58 AM

I used to get the full GFE experience when we were dating.  After marriage however, things have changed and we dont get to have sex like we used to.  Now it seems like such a chore and any form of sex besides misch is out of the question.  I still am very attractive and had tons of ladies when I was single but our sex life is gone.  To fulfill that need, I now feel like I have to hobby because getting into an affair seems to be too complicated and time consuming.

I am not trying to justify anything here because I know it is wrong on so many levels.  But I was just wondering if any other married men out there are going through the same thing?

But I agree, it's rarely that simple.

If spouses can't enjoy each other, what's the sense in being the dog in a manger?

Took me 5 years after the wife closed her legs to start running around.  It wasn't the lackanookie as much as the lack of affection.

But women are all so sensitive - well, at least to their own feelings - that it must be your fault!

Some marriages might handle it well, others not.  Some marriages can't handle much well, and so what?  

You're right that nobody should be the morality police here because there's nobody who clearly knows WTF they're doing or can get results for anybody else.

Like I did!!

Every marriage is different.It's ALWAYS the business of the parties involved and none of ours. The OP did ask whether or not it was cheating, not if it the cheating was justified.

FWIW If you are married and having sex outside the marriage, it is by definition cheating, no matter how you put it. I'm not here to judge, just answering a question.

As has been said before, Hungry and I are in similar boats and have a similar attitude.

My wife has medical issues that have interfered with our sex life (not to mention every other aspect our marriage). I love her very much, and it's been a two-year struggle to understand what she's going through and try not to resent her for decreasing ability to do as much. (It's not a fatal illness, but rather a life-long condition that leaves her tired and in pain 24 hours a day.) At one point she told me that I should do whatever I wanted or needed to keep myself happy -- but that she didn't ever want to know anything about it. She even wrote it in an e-mail to me, so technically I have written permission.

But like Hungry, I also know that "just don't tell me" isn't really permission at all. But when I found myself fooling around with a female friend (also married) I realized that I needed to do something that wouldn't destroy more relationships. I put an end to what was going on and decided to regroup and rethink. I did a lot of homework before I decided to enter the hobby, and was VERY picky about who I would see, how, and when.

I'm not fooling myself. I know it's cheating. But it's the best I can do in my current situation without leaving my wife -- who has decreasing ability to take care of herself.

Regardless of the reasons, it's deceitful and it undermines the fundamental trust in a relationship.

What's the point of getting married if your going to cheat on your wife.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Most married men that cheat would never tolerate a guy having a sexual relationship with their wife.  

People need to make better decisions about who they marry.

Remember, it is NOT sex (or cheating) if you only cum in her mouth!

No, it's sex pure and simple. Falling in love with someone else is cheating wheather you have sex or not.

Went through the same thing with my wife, before we were married everything was great.  Its that or have a full blown affair.

As one who has been married (twice) and is a provider...

...there are many relationships out there that don't find mutual satisfaction in the same activities.  I know plenty of wives who have no problem with their husbands blowing money on fishing hobbies or golf hobbies.  (Fantasy football, anyone?)  They attend monthly (or weekly) meetings, outings, etc... and the wife really isn't interested one iota in hearing about the 'big catch'.

When you are neglecting your partner or 'cheating them' out of something, whether it be emotional support, financial stability, physical intimacy, etc... that's where I believe there is betrayal to the relationship.

But whether it's no-strings sex or 20lb. fishing line, if you walk in the door with a smile on your face and a kiss for your wife... well... is anyone really 'losing' in that situation??

But that's just MO.  

-- Modified on 6/9/2008 3:29:29 PM

Yes it is cheating.  Because like the word says, we are privy to information that the other person isn't and therefore have an unfair advantage.  The other person does not have the same information as us to be able to make informed, fair decisions for themselves.  By withholding that information we are taking away that right. It is mighty arrogant and unjust to assume we know what is best for our mate (withholding damaging information) when in fact, we are just too cowardly to put the truth on the table.  However we choose to justify or rationalise it, those facts remain and we must live with the consequences.

Yes it is cheating.  For some people more than just physical needs are met particularly if you are seeing the same providers over and over again.

No matter how "sterile" you think your relationship is with an ATF, there is an emotional component to it.

For my ex wife I think the emotional component was worse than the physical or financial part of my hobbying.

Emotional fidelity vs physical fidelity....

It's a fact that most women refuse to acknowledge, but males are not 'designed' to be monogamous. Though mankind has evolved, the things that drive us are still basic animal instincts. For women, our underlying drive is to 'nest', for men it's to attempt to mate with as many females as possible in order to spread there genetic information and insure survival of their line. The concept of monogamy is actually unnatural for males, unlike females, who are ideally suited for it. And though males are capable of maintaining a monogamous relationship, it's something that truly requires work on their part.

Playing in the hobby vs having an affair, allows men to stay emotional faithful and committed while still allowing them to satisfy their physical needs.

the problem is that it takes 2 to keep up the heat, and what are the odds?  

As a bushy haired old guy, I know how to do it - now that I don't give a shit anymore.

You gotta keep each other engaged. It's not that hard if you're a reasonable person.  What are the odds?  Well reasonable vs. unreasonable is a relative term, so if half of people are reasonable, the odds of matching up 2 are 1 in 4.

doesn't quit the game early!  I have heard that same old bullshit line for so damn long, i wanna puke.  Somehow the reason I hobby all comes back to being MY fault that my marriage totally sucks, and what sucks worse is there is NO possible way out, due to the skewed divorce laws in this country.  She know this and is fully content to not even speak most of the time...and just take the paycheck.  I was told...if you want a sexual relationship that badly, go find one, because you're not getting it here!   NOW  will one of you DR PHIL types like to tell me HOW the F**K you "keep up the HEAT with THAT???!!!  I figure if I'm going to deal with someone who is only in it for the money...might as well spend it where I know I can still get a little attention (even if only for a couple of hours)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Modified on 6/10/2008 6:34:52 AM

but in your case, it sounds like very, very justified cheating.

Please don't take this as preaching because it is not my intention, but have you ever considered the fact that while divorce would cost you dearly in the short run, the long term benefits might outweigh the temporary financial pain?

I know I am only projecting my personal experiences onto to yours, but speaking as a happily divorced man for fifteen years now, all the financial hardships of my divorce were worth it.

Just my $.02 I know if you wanted marital advice, you could call Dr Phil instead.

-- Modified on 6/10/2008 6:51:39 AM

...i don't believe that females are any more naturally monogamous than males. the difference is that females have been conditioned by most societies throughout much of history to believe that we must be monogamous.

it's heartbreaking to me to see so much strife and pain in relationships brought about over the silly monogamous ideal. if only we could all learn to be truly honest with ourselves and live and love more in line with our natures, instead of these false standards based in morality and patriarchy that no one can live up to.

Women only have so many eggs, while men have an almost unlimited amount of jizz(when we're young at least).

A woman can only bear on child at a time, while a man can sire many children with little consequences(pre child support laws). Hence women need to be more selective about their potential mates while guys can go out and fuck anything and everything. It's hard to undo thousands of years of species survival instincts.

If you have promised someone that you will abide by certain rules, and you stop following those rules, especially if you have not informed them, you are cheating. You may feel the reasons for no longer abiding by the rules are justified, but it's still cheating. Perhaps, the essential question, which others have brought up is, what can you live with? Abiding be the rules and being frustrated sexually, or being a cheater and getting your sexual needs met. Quite the dilemma!

The concept of monogamy is actually unnatural for males.  Add to this a wife who has totally lost interest, and you have choice--hobby or affair.  I choose to hobby.

misery is misery no matter how much money you have.

i'll never understand why miserable people are scared to change their circumstances.

if it doesnt kill you, odds are change will be good for you.

Bull on this thread, then McDonalds has on their cattle farms!  As for life under a bridge...that would ONLY be if I was lucky....My own lawyer told me to give this one up....that what was going to happen was worse than staying......his final words......Find a Girlfriend  !!!!  LOL

Do a little BJ for Sweet Ol' Bill now & then, I wouldn't try to have sex with ugly women!

but then I never claimed to have walked a mile in your shoes. I have however walked many a mile in my own shoes and FWIW divorce was better than living in misery for the rest of my life. It cost me more than I care to recall, but guess what? I've replaced the money it cost me and I have a life that I am happy with.

Again, It's only my $.02 and maybe not worth that much, but FWIW I've been there and even though it cost me everything, it was a bargain. For me at least.

that's the commonly believed biological argument for monogamy in females, however even at our most primal, instinctive levels i don't think it's all about procreation. yes a woman may be wired to be selective about her mate, the one who will impregnate her and potentially take care of a family with her, however a female will not become pregnant with every sexual act. more than likely it took our ancient ancestors a few centuries or more to figure out the whole sex makes baby equation.

unlike most animals, we humans do not undergo a limited, seasonal period during which we are in "heat." for the animals who go into heat and rut, you can set your calendar faithfully by the new births, as it is very rare for conception to occur outside of the rutting season. but for us it is quite different, we are capable of having such needs at any time, sex can willingly be had and and every day of the year. this means that for us sex is about more than the mere continuation of the species via procreation. and it is for this reason that i have always felt that monogamy is not natural for humankind in general, either for males or females.

personally, i cannot ever see myself being sexually monogamous and for the life of me cannot comprehend why anyone tries to be.

It's better to be happy in life, even if that means having less money.

Easy right. Just do it. The world is full of Kings and Queens who blind our eyes and steal our dreams. Its heaven and hell.

In most early civilizations monogamy was not the standard. Take the Cherokee Tribe for example. The males had no possesions and the traced thier heritage by the mothers ancestry. The main reason for this being, thier father could be anyone in the tribe. The females choose thier sex partners and the only ones who could own anything. This example of an early matriarchal society would kind of counter your proposal of women being more inherently monogomous than men.