Over the past few days there's been threads by guys wanting opinions on traveling with a provider, getting into a full time relationship with one, and other situations that go beyond what happens behind closed doors during P4P.
In every thread, the general advice seemed to be that the guy should look objectively at his situation. Good advice.
There's a provider I've seen many times over the last 12 or so months. I've spent about $15,000 with her. I've never asked for anything OTC, and she's never offered. Right now I'm not able to have any sex because of a recent operation. It's out of the question. I enjoy her company, and would like to see her. I asked her what her rate would be just to have lunch and talk. She said she has a two hour lunch date package for $900.
I now know where I stand with her. I'll be taking a trip out of the country in a few months, and was considering taking a provider, as was another poster on the forum. I now know how to do the first step of screening for such an idea. 
I have spent considerably more on my hair stylist over the years and I know darn well she is not about to take time out of her day and miss seeing PAYING client to hang with me and do lunch. Why is this so hard for some to understand? You are a client, not a friend, maybe a friendly client but a client just the same.
This is why I will never do overnights and trips with johns...they do not want to pay for much time outside of the sex portion...all the while I have to deal with them 24/7 the ENTIRE time and be on for that duration. Not at all a good deal for me.
15k is really peanuts. Now, if I spent 50-75K on a lady during a year, which I have, and she wanted to charge me $900 for a simple lunch date I would be extremely pissed. By the way, a porn star I saw years ago and was very generous to gave me a ride from the airport to my hotel. Guess what: she wanted 1K for the lift. So anyone who thinks that hookers are not a uniquely greedy bunch is being delusional.
I didn't catch that Main1984 had judgment about where he stood - just enlightened. There are many different approaches - H+T you sound mostly about business, which is your prerogative. There are plenty of providers who value the connections, the relationships, the experiences as much, or for some even more, than the money.
Main you will have no trouble finding a travel partner who will see plenty of value in the travel opportunity, and won't be looking for a 24/7 rate. Research reviews, spend some time emailing, and certainly have at least one night together to validate chemistry....and you'll find a great companion. Have fun!
-- Modified on 10/29/2015 11:33:26 AM
Oh, no delusions that she liked me as anything more than a client. I've done favors for her (ride, lent money, etc), but I expected to pay for her time for lunch. I wasn't expecting $900 for two hours, which is more than I pay for two hours behind closed doors. Maybe she really DOESN'T like my company.
Every so often I'll read comments from providers here on the forum who talk about doing things like lunch OTC, and I wonder how they can afford to do it. I have to take clients out to dinner in the evenings sometimes, but I figure a way to build that time into my final invoice.
What this tells me is that, at least with her, there would be no discounts for an overseas trip. I'd be paying full rate, about $75K for a week, or seven times whatever she charges for a full 24 hour day.
It's the old "I don't mind fucking him, but are you telling me that I have to talk to him as well? Fuck That, that costs double" lol
Just because one gal is one way doesn't mean everyone is the same. I do hang out with people off the clock. I do not charge people $75,000.00 to go on a trip. I am low volume and I just need to cover my daily income. Probably peanuts in comparison to many. Someone recently offered me $25,000.00 to go on a 4 day trip. Imo that kind of money is ridiculous for me to go on an all inclusive get away. I told him what I just told you all...just cover my 4 day income. A trip for two with all expenses paid plus my fees per day is a lot of money. However, everyone is free to ask for whatever they damn well please. If you agree to it then, that's on you. $900.00 for lunch and conversation is pretty insane. $450.00 per hour to eat steak and shoot the shit?!?!? Maybe I need to rethink my M. O. lol God bless her! I do that for free lmao maybe I'm the asshole here? Wow 9 bills to have a free lunch....I'd just go for lunch every day! Fuck shaving my legs and having lingerie imported...let's go have lunc
but it's better to find out now rather than letting your imagination run away with you thinking there was something more between the two of you.
I had a provider that I thought I was "dating" for a while, but I noticed a trend that every time we had sex, she would come up with a reason that she needed something that cost right about what her usual donation was, whether it be a power bill, a rent payment, there was always an emergency that cost right about the same amount as a paid session would have been.
I did continue to see her as the sex was off the hook, but I never deluded myself that she and I were actually dating after I connected the dots.
Case in point: A while ago, a provider/friend asked me to take her to an event in the city, and I eventually did and I also asked her if she wanted dinner afterwards and she said yes, and I did that too. No playtime was involved, but driving her home I could tell she was irritated although she didn't say anything. Anyway, I continued to see her and eventually she asked me to take her to NYC for an overnight. I said OK, Ill pay for everything (e. g. hotel, tickets, good food, etc) and treat you well and you can have personal time if you want but if there is playtime I'll only pay for that and any NYC amusements we take in, and we have to agree beforehand so there's no unhappiness or misunderstanding. She dropped her request and we're still friends, but there's never any OTC, even if it's something she wants to do and wants male companionship rather than go by herself. In other words, she wanted to run the clock the whole weekend, and I would also pay for NYC cultural amusements, hotel, etc but would not add a bonus for her company unless there was playtime involved. I think if the arrangement is at the lady's request, that changes the equation. If it's my request, I would pay the entire freight, including non-playtime. What think ye lads and ladies?
IMO, if she is the one doing the asking and it's a "sex optional" date, I don't expect to, nor will I pay her for the "privilege" of taking her out on the town. As an old fashioned guy, I do pick up all the tabs just like I would when taking out any other woman, but don't expect to give me a bill for "your time" when the whole idea of going out was something you wanted to do in the first place.
No OTOH, if I am the one doing the inviting, I can see how her default assumption would be that it was a paid date unless we already had a history of doing things together OTC
Um no. I disagree. Time is what these ladies provide. Last night I had a provider ask me if I wanted to go to local nightclub with her to see a musician she really liked. She already had her ticket and she checked to see if more were available. There were a few left, but I politely said, "no". She persisted and offered to drive or stop by my place, and we could Uber it together." I again declined because I didn't assume it was OTC time. She didn't say it was outright. I think a provider would say, "HEY, I really like hanging out with you so the time together at the club would be OTC time." Maybe I was wrong, but I rather be wrong than have a misunderstanding. Did I get the feeling she liked me? OH YES, we had a nice session but any provider worth 350 an hr should give you that impression. The key is to remember that it's P4P and not dating.
That doesn't mean your default setting should be that every hooker is into you, wants to see you for free and have your babies, but there is nothing wrong or even the least bit unusual that a provider might want to go out OTC with a client. Maybe because she likes you, maybe it's simply good customer relations, but either way what's wrong with two people going out and enjoying themselves without any money being exchanged?
I agree, however, I think the provider should make it very clear that the time is NOT on the clock when the time is not on the clock. That way there are no assumptions. I may be wrong, but I'm not a mind reader ... since I got divorced, and a professional knows that most guys are going to assume that if the clothes are on that its OTC. Its not fair to the girl for guys to make assumptions other than she gets paid for her time. I'll get off the WK box. Fat boy will want it back when he gets finished getting fucked up the ass.
I find it simple to ask what she means without sounding crass. If a woman asks you to go out with her like this, simply ask "is this a date" "as friends" or "an appointment"??? Pretty simple and leaves no chance for hurt feelings or misunderstandings
Just like she complains about some of the posters here.
I haven't run into anyone like her yet...and likely never will. Those who honestly spew the garbage like that and honestly mean it...aren't in this game for very long.
And she's been hooking a loooonnnngggg time.
I genuinely like them as people. But you are right, I am all about the money and do not like working or free.
Besides chatting a little bit after time is up...that doesn't count. I usually only have one appointment scheduled per day/evening, so it's not like I need them out, or to be out, by X o'clock. A bit of extra chat often progresses naturally, and then ends naturally, within a reasonable time frame (say a half hour or so). But OTC dinners? Vacations? Hell no.
With VERY rare exceptions, it's much better for both myself and the client to keep in mind that we have a friendly business relationship, and nothing else. Clients either take the proverbial inch and want to run off into the sunset, or lines get blurred, or both. It's SO rare that both of us are on the same page. I always ended up feeling put upon, and/or he ended up feeling led on.
I totally agree with Russ's approach. This transaction is so easy and perfect...why complicate it
I mean it's only your worst clients that feel entitled to OTC time in the first place. Your good and great clients may enjoy it if you offer it to them, but none of those clients are going to demand it in the first place. So, if you don't really enjoy the company of your clients DON'T DO IT!!!
I know I talk about getting a lot of OTC, but keep in mind just how many hookers I come in contact with. Contrary to what some of the broke dick, jealous types around here thing about me I don't have a huge percentage of the hookers I pay throwing themselves at me to give me free time. I bet you the percentage of the providers I schedule with that I ever end up seeing socially OTC is way less than 10%,(except for touring Asian women where my average is much higher) but considering I see at least a hundred different women if not more in a typical year, that's still quite a few. If you take my percentages and apply them to a more "normal" guy who might see one different hooker a month, it could be years before he finds a provider who likes him enough to go out on unpaid dates with him, if ever.
But back to ladies feeling obligated to provide OTC, it's simply not true. The last thing I want to do is share a meal or drink with someone who would much rather be anywhere else and the guys too clueless to pick up on this aren't worth your time anyhow.
It's more of a boundary issue. I have very few clients with whom it would be a chore to have a nice steak dinner...I mean, REALLY 
But, like I said, most will misinterpret the OTC as more than it is...whether that is a willingness on my part to date, or just do more OTC...and more, and more...and more.
Also, it's about respect for time...I have other interests, work, and obligations. More to the point, there is a very attractively priced (about 2.2x my one-hour rate...literally $200 more than my 2-hour rate, for 4 hours) dinner date option on my site. Most of my clients book the dinner date option without ever asking me for favors or OTC.
In my experience, the best way to never see a paying client again, is to offer him OTC. Even if it's a good short-term strategy (AKA leading a guy on to get more money), it's never worth it in the end. There are a few exceptions to that, but not too many.
Just the hundreds of "I've fallen for a hooker and cant' get up" posts I suppose are proof of that.
and I do have to confess, in the overwhelming majority of the sessions I schedule OTC time never comes up, nor do I even think about it. Of course I am much more of a getting my physical needs met in an hour appointment kind of guy than I am a multi hour "companionship" type of client.
I will say that with a few ladies that I have "clicked with" mainly Asian girls who don't have a lot of friends or family here who would be otherwise be sitting at home alone, I have done a lot of arrangements where I come over for an hour long paid session and then we go out for dinner, drinks or whatever OTC. You of course have a full life outside of this business, so I don't imagine the thought of looking to a client for company would ever enter your mind, and nor should it. As I said before, you don't owe anyone anything, except to do what you are being paid to do as well as you can do it and for as long as you are being paid for it.
FWIW, in most of these arrangements where we spend a lot of OTC time together, it's been very rare that we have taken the next step of becoming real BF/GF, part of the reason I even pursue these kind of relationships is the knowledge that she will be going home in a few weeks or a few months and I am safe from any serious feelings being developed. Yes, I have no desire for any woman to get the lines too blurry and fall in love with me either.
I met at a time when I'd just moved to NYC, had no career (not even an appreciable escort career), no obligations, no classes, tons of free time, and no friends. So yea, I guess I was happy to have the company. Also, the second guy was planning to move away when we met...so, he knew that he'd be rid of me in a few months' time. LOL. Never thought of it that way.
I can only speak for myself, but I only look for relationships that I know can't go anywhere. Most often I get into relationships with women who either live far away, a different state or even a different country works perfectly. This puts the issue of fidelity way on the back burner as I don't really care what she does when I am not there to see, and the same thing in reverse.
The other type of relationship I might pursue is one where the woman is a good thirty years younger than me. It's one thing for a 56 year old man to date a woman not yet thirty, but if she starts thinking wedding bells usually the thought of being married to a man over seventy when she is only forty is usually a sobering enough thought to keep her from trying to "trap me" into marriage. lol
I see much younger (30+ years) providers for the same reason. No matter how "smitten" I might become, which hasn't happened, there's no chance I'd mistake it for something more than what it is: a business transaction.
The downside to that is that the twenty-something's I see are happy to take the money, but there's so much of an age gap that the idea of just talking isn't appealing, as evidenced by the original topic of this thread.
Much more sophistication, wisdom, life experience, patience, and so much else.
I'm finally out of the age group where my peers are like, 'Duuuuuuuuuude, did you see that siiiiiiiiiiiick play on Super Mario bros? Yo, get me another beeeeeeeer.' But, I still find that older guys have so much more to offer than men my own age.
One of my exes (the second client I dated) just turned 50 this past winter. Surely, there's some young girl out there who has a few things in common with you, and truly likes your company But, I did say a few threads above that I was REALLY weird, so take that into consideration
I know a lot of women who wouldn't dream of dating a guy anywhere near their own age, and no these women are not "broken" its just a personal preference.
I think a lot of guys (johns) just think they have nothing to offer a younger woman so it's all about self fulfilling prophecies.
I will admit that I am getting to the age that I am much more likely to date a thirty something rather than the early twenties type, but I don't find any awkwardness with being with a 20 year old.
a ha! I've tried "dating" millenials and the constant need to text drives me nuts.
Even if/when you actually hit the jackpot and find someone like yourself who can converse with an older guy without rolling her eyes at your outdated cultural references ... things just inevitably go to shit if I have to use texting for anything other than confirming a time, or letting her know I'm running late, etc
Say 'Well, I'm older than you.' To end every argument. WAY too much.
Some older guys are worse about texting than a sixteen-year-old cheerleader. At least I'm conscious of looking like an obnoxious millenial if I text too much. But older guys just seem to think they have carte blanche as they show me video after video of dogs, grandkids' soccer games, etc. :-P
Even my 78 year old mother and I have text or email conversations that might last a day or two.
Texting is great when you are busy doing other things and can't devote 100% concentration on a phone conversation. By texting you can keep up a conversation all day long, but only take a few short minutes out of your day to do so.
I think it should be a new "Hobbyist Code," rule, edict, or what have you. Etch it in stone somewhere.
If the provider asks ... whether it's a date, to an event, or even on a weekend getaway, IT IS OFF THE CLOCK.
I'll even go so far as to say if she invites you to her hotel room, guess what? OFF THE CLOCK. And I justify this new "Hobby Code" with one simple phrase: What is sauce for the goose, ladies, is also sauce foe the gander.
What do you say guys? Should we etch this one on the side of Mount Everest?
What's with all these threads lately about clients wanting to marry, "date" or "be serious" with their provider?
Has this place turned into match.com?
lol
I have known a maintainance technician have sex with a line worker on a pallet in a food processing plant.
I have had a boss fuck his secretary at lunch at the local knights inn.
I have known co workers hook up after a few too many at a sales conference.
Had a buddy working construction doing renovations at Kroger fuck the deli clerk on the night shift.
so
workplace "romance" or "hookups or fucking happens all the time.
Each of these instances are of people having sex with co-workers or colleagues. Which isn't the same as, say, a clerk hooking up with a regular customer of the store.
Now I'm not saying it's unheard of or impossible. Just that it is much, much more common for co-workers to hook up due to the simple fact that they spend so much time together ... literally for hours, every day.
Think about it.
I will agree that the workplace analogy falls flat and hooker/john relationships are not "workplace dating" so much as customer/service provider, but I think at least most of us have picked up a bartender or cocktail waitress at least once in our lives, and that's not a huge difference between "dating your hooker".
I guess what I am saying is that its a point of interaction. The appointment gives a familiarity
and if the chemistry is there then something may happen beyond the business. Not saying anyone
should take p4p as a way to date just saying stuff just happens sometimes.
I mean ... if I were to count the number of girls I've hit on in my lifetime, and the rate of successes I've had ... holy crap. I'd have to say the total number of girls I've hit to be in the thousands. And the number of successes I've had landing a girl while she was working? That would be exactly TWICe. Once with a girl (okay, she was a provider) working at an AMP, and before that a K-mart employee when I was in my 20's.
That's not very good odds compared with, say, bars, where my success rate might be like 1 in 4 or 5. Then there are the "friends of friends" where the odds (for me at least) have been more like 1 in 3, because you have the shared friends thing going for you.
So yea, at my current rate, I'd probably have to do this for roughly another 20 years before I get another provider to fall for me. And assuming I don't age like George Clooney or Pierce Brosnan, that probably translates to never again.
and I suppose maybe someday you will figure out that paying double doesn't get you twice the service, it just means most hookers will lose what little respect they had for you to begin with.
and only twice out of thousands??? No wonder you pay hookers twice their going rate, I am hardly a George Clooney or Pierce Brosnan, but I think in my younger days I've scored with twice in a weekend, not twice in a lifetime. I guess that does explain why you are usually in such a foul mood.
Not all of us have hookers tripping over themselves to give us full refunds on service.
Some us, you know, actually have to pay hookers for sex and don't have them proposing marriage and taking us back to their home country to meet their Mommies.
I think a little perspective is in order here, GA.
Why is it that I do so well with hookers and you OTOH hand, even when you offer double the rate, still seem to get the women here to hate you?
It couldn't be your thin skin and threats to write fake reviews, could it? Nah, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. How did you enjoy your time out after your little melt down a while back? The BSC hookers that have melted down before you should thank you for proving a guy can be just as BSC as any of them, even BSC Taylor who was our previous "Melt down queen"
I was glad to take a time out for the sake of standing up for myself and adhering to my principles.
And as much as I love old-fashioned message boards, I've posted on better ones and worse ones than this. So not really a big deal to take some time off.
And by the way, I get along extremely well with my providers. Just because I don't go trying to blur client/provider boundaries and choose to respect the integrity of the transactional nature of the business ... doesn't mean that I have poor relations with them. Just because they don't throw themselves at my feet, doesn't mean they don't genuinely enjoy me as a client. And just because I don't necessarily consider them "relationship material" doesn't mean that I don't have great respect for them and hold them in high regard.
But thank you for your concern. On the same note, just because I like to give you shit doesn't mean I don't genuinely derive entertainment from your posts. I get a sense that, like myself, you appreciate the old-fashioned message board format, which is slowly becoming a dinosaur, so it's nice to see people like yourself trying to keep them alive.
Cheers!
I've been participating on the board since 2013 or so and its a reoccurring topic, love struck Johns.
It reminds me of being at a strip club with a buddy of mine, he had a hottie climbing all over him, they went in the back for quite a few private dances. After about 2 hours of this, she went to the main stage to dance and he says to me "she likes me", I almost spit my Bourbon out onto the floor (and one shouldn't waste good Bourbon). I told him, "just as soon as you run out of cash, you'll find out exactly how much she doesn't like you".
I'll never understand why these damn fools think there is anything more than what it is. It's perfect just the way it is, you get sucked and fucked by a hot woman that, at least in my case, wouldn't give you more than the time of day if it weren't for the arrangement, for as long as you're paying her to do so and then she or you leaves. She gets what she's there for, cash, and both parties are happy. No bullshit, fun and then it's over, why fuck with perfection.
Has this place turned into match.com?
I had been regularly seeing a lower end provider over the past year. It came to the point that practically became her ATM. It started with a lack of cigs,,,then toiletries....then food and then eventually rent. Each time it was some new excuse/family emergency. Hey, I guess it's the way I was raised...I'm a sucker for things like that.
Anyways she's now in voluntary rehab lo
I know exactly why she is with me, exactly what her motivation is and exactly how much it's going to set me back. That is fucking perfect, as far as I'm concerned.
I've had a few encounters that went over about half an hour or so, but it was because we had a good conversation going and I didn't get any of the "time to go" cues.
If you want someone to hang out with, there's always match, I'm not at all suggesting that you pursue match or any of the other bullshit dating sites, but it's there that you'll find women who want to hang out. And then you'll have to listen to their bullshit, play the stupid fucked up dating game and it'll still cost you, time and money.
Depends on what you're looking for, hot women who know how to and will suck and fuck you silly or a member of the OTHFB club, who will waste your time money and energy and maybe she lays back, spreads her legs and says "Ok but hurry up, my show's on in 10 minutes", and you might just as well forget about a blow job with her.
Every lady here will admit that they expect to be compensated for their time, but I think few ladies would seriously consider your offer if you presented it to them.
I assume some things here, but this is how I see your situation.
$15000 in one year is a hell of a lot of consumer discretionary spending for pussy. Any man that can comfortably spend that much money in one year is, most likely, among the top 10% (or better) richest men in the US. Is it also safe to assume that $15K can turn into $24k for the right lady? If so, you are now talking about a sugar-daddy relationship which may be appealing for some women.
Finally, do your research. In my case, I have found a lady that I enjoy outside of the bedroom. We both hold advanced degrees and we have talked in restaurants for hours. Some of her time with me is OTC, but I respect her enough that I do not abuse her generosity. She is the rare exception. I have spent approximately $5000 with her this past year. I expect that amount will go up next year.
You need to be VERY careful because you may be confusing a physical attraction with some made up emotional bond. Other than sex, how does this woman stimulate you? What do you have in common? If you find someone that fits your personality, then you might be more likely to make a longer term relationship.
I may be wrong. Just pay the next chick 200 for a quick BJ
Just said Hey babe you want to grab lunch with me manana ? and let her say either
" No Main,I don't date my clients"
or
" Sure Main, my lunch package is 900 bones, when you wanna pick me up so I can get a sitter for my little dog."
or
" That would be fun, Main where do you want to meet?"
Never hurts to ask the question the right way.
btw I have had all three replies to the question.
lol
Many providers do have social rates, and even if she doesn't, she could have extended some type of concession to you...or, if it was really not worth her time, she could have explained what exigencies made her unable to meet 'just to chat' for a discounted rate. For example: kids need babysitter, other job is very busy, there's a lot of travel involved, she's refusing other appts, etc.
Personally, I'd be happy to do it, as long as logistics are right...and more importantly, so long as I felt comfortable in the relationship. If I do not feel comfortable in the relationship, for whatever reason, then I might reply as your friend did. It would basically be code for, 'Asshole, you can keep seeing me...but, you stay on your side of the fence and I'll stay on mine!!
I ain't love struck, and I wasn't expecting anything for free. The way I phrased it was, "what would you charge to meet me for lunch sometime next week?"
I was a little surprised that the price was more than what she charges for behind closed doors, but not entirely. I'm not exactly stud material.
Don't read more into peoples' posts than what's really there. It makes threads confusing.
I don't think that most of the escorts are like that. She obviously doesn't like the business and should find something else to do that she likes.
I would have just laughed in her face if she expected to be paid for having lunch with me.
In every thread, the general advice seemed to be that the guy should look objectively at his situation. Good advice.
There's a provider I've seen many times over the last 12 or so months. I've spent about $15,000 with her. I've never asked for anything OTC, and she's never offered. Right now I'm not able to have any sex because of a recent operation. It's out of the question. I enjoy her company, and would like to see her. I asked her what her rate would be just to have lunch and talk. She said she has a two hour lunch date package for $900.
I now know where I stand with her. I'll be taking a trip out of the country in a few months, and was considering taking a provider, as was another poster on the forum. I now know how to do the first step of screening for such an idea.
I felt that my ATF and I were becoming real friends, however, I was perfectly aware that the illusion of a relationship is what a good performer does.
My first clue that the affection might be mutual came when I texted her to say that business sucked and it would be a while before I could afford to see her again. Her response was to suggest getting together for lunch or dinner in the meantime. We did, and often. Mercifully, business picked up again, and we were able to resume our other activities.
Three years ago she retired from the business. Something about her having accepted a marriage proposal. We still get together, with some frequency, for lunch or dinner. We go dutch, and there is neither hanky nor panky.*
*Damn.
I have never expected anyone to spend time off the clock with me, but I have received many offers. Usually its just for drinks/lunch/...etc. Sadly it was always from someone I had little interest in seeing again.
Thats not to say that there are some providers whose company I enjoy more than others. I don't expect any sort of free time with them, but sometimes I am surprised by a person who stays in touch and checks up on me even when we don't have a meet scheduled. The little human touches do make a difference, even when my most cynical self may suspect its calculated. At some point you just have to take things at face value and all yourself to enjoy those moments.
Now in terms of greed, what rubs me the wrong way is something completely different. Some providers charge extra for specific services like CIM, and I totally understand it. However, I am always a bit annoyed when I book someone for 10-12 hours for thousands of dollars and at the end they are still counting how many times she provided CIM so she can get that extra $40 or $80. Again its her right and I do pay up without question, but still bothers me I get the same treatment as the guy who booked only one hour.
-- Modified on 10/30/2015 9:04:52 AM